47 50 4772 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F34fe7977cc487f38553e63f5f46d04d9.MP3 943160e343640675695db9aa989a3cbe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Russ Night Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [Start of Interview] Weisskopf: If there’s someplace you’d like to start. Otherwise, do you want to go all the way back to what you were doing in World War II and sort of segue into how you ended up at Hanford? Knight: I could do that real quickly. You bet. Weisskopf: Basically, last time we talked you told me what you were doing, the top secret kind of work, you had a clearance during the war. Knight: That’s right. Weisskopf: Well, how about that? Knight: Okay. Let me say this. I originated out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and joined the Army Air Corps, because they were taking fellows in with a little bit of education. I say a little bit. High school, minimum. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: And from there, why, I went through the training, and then was assigned to the Eighth Air Force. And very shortly thereafter there was a big push to get personnel into what was called the troop carrier command then. And I went into the first troop carrier command, and during my stay there, training pilots, and we were then well, after I had been in training for about 14 months training pilots, decided that I’d like to get a part of the war effort, too. So I volunteered to go into the war. And at that stage I was assigned to a troop carrier unit that was to go overseas, and again was requested to submit to special training. At that time I was trained as a pathfinder. Part of that training took place at MIT, the electronics training, and the field training then took place at Pope Field in North Carolina, Fayetteville. And from there, why, I went over to the European theater of operations. Weisskopf: And what year was that? Knight: That was in 1943. Late ‘43. And from there I participated in the war, and of course the top secret clearance type thing took place at my training at MIT and also in the field training at Fayetteville, North Carolina. So then I came home in December 1945. And at that time I came by the Richland area, because I had met some real good people and had some friends here. And everybody, during my visit, said “Oh, you better sign up and go to work here at Hanford, because this is the future of mankind.” Weisskopf: You had actually felt that this was something new happening? Knight: That’s right. And so I said, “Oh, I don’t think that they would want me, but I’ll go down and submit an application.” Because I came from the East Coast originally, as I stated, and I had been offered a job by one of the officers in the Army to work for Standard Oil of New Jersey. And I thought, well, that was close to home and be a good opportunity, so that had been my original plan. But after submitting my application at Hanford, why, with my background and with the military clearance and just out of the service within weeks, why, they gave me my exam, gave me my clearance the same day, and told me to report to 100 West area the following morning. Weisskopf: They were happy to have you. Knight: It was really strange, because the people that knew me said “That’s impossible, Russ, they can’t do that. They’ll stop you before you get out there. But anyhow we’re happy that you did sign up.” So the net result was everything went the way that I was told that it would when I signed in. Weisskopf: This is probably early 1946 at this point? Knight: That was in January ‘46. January 14th, to be exact. Weisskopf: Well, okay, great. That was the first day you showed up for work? Knight: That’s correct. And so in doing so, I got on the bus, and at that time the bus rides were free, and the bus depot was fairly close to town. As a matter of fact, it was almost on the corner of Williams and Thayer, about a block to the west. So I went to the bus area and got on a bus like they said. It was labeled to the 200 area. Now, these were small military type buses. They were even painted the OD color. And I got on this thing and started out, and when we got to the 300 area, there was the major barricade across the road. Now, this was manned by military personnel. And when I looked over at the 300 area to my right, why, there was guard towers all around the area. And it was hard wire fencing and barbed wire at the top. And low profile barracks type military style construction. And I thought, Uh-oh, I don’t recall the looks of that. But, anyhow, on we went. And the reason that I make this comment was I had just, on my return to the United States I had been stationed just outside of Munich, Germany, and they had Dachau concentration camps just 17 miles out of town, and I had visited that prior to coming home. And it had a very similar position in my mind, that, hey, this is another concentration type of thing, and what in the world are we doing here? So I didn’t feel too comfortable, the 26 miles on out to the 200 areas. And as we came up the hill closest to the 200 East area and flattened out, I looked over to the right and here I could see this real long concrete building and a large smokestack, or at least a discharge stack of some sort, 200 feet in the air, and I thought, Uh-oh, no windows in this facility, and I was really getting very uncomfortable. And I thought, Well, I don’t know whether I like this or not, I don’t want to be a part of something that’s like the concentration camps where... Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: So on we went to the 200 West area. When I got off the bus, why, I had the real strong feeling that I wanted to go back to town. So I went in the batch house and I asked them what time the next bus went back to town. Because there were no private vehicles at that time. And they said oh, there wouldn’t be another bus, there’d be a shuttle bus later on, that I might be able to they said, “By the way, who do you want to see?” And at that time I was asked to get in touch with Randy Fenninger (phonetic) of DuPont. So they said, “Well, here, we’ll get him on the phone.” So they called Randy, and he answered very quickly, and he says “We’ll be right up to pick you up.” So in just a very few moments, here came a car, a company car, and again it was in the OD color. And I got in the car, and they started down, and I told them, I said, “I’m really uncomfortable about this.” And Randy says “Well, you needn’t be, we’ll explain a few things to you as we go.” So he started telling me a little story about and, of course, the news on what was going on at Hanford had already broken and had been published in the papers. That was one of the reasons that I came home very early. So the story continued to be, “All right, we’re going down to the laboratory, and this is the 222-T laboratory, and we’ll start here and give you a little bit of an insight.” But they said “Bear in mind that everything that is on the site is very much in the high security type activities. Anything related to processing is strictly on a need-to-know basis.” So that was the beginning and the start of my introduction to Hanford. And I got into the laboratory and immediately met some really fine people and started working. And then after I had established myself in about three or four weeks, why, they said “We need your type of help over in the 200 East area also, same building, same type of activity, for B Plant operation.” So I worked a half a day in T Plant and a half a day in the B Plant laboratories. Weisskopf: In the same day. Knight: For several years. Weisskopf: Oh, between the two? Knight: Yes. A half a day in each. And that was kind of interesting. But then we got into what was happening and the processing. And, of course, the process at that time was what they called bismuth phosphate processing. It was a batch type process. They had the cells in the canyon building, which was a long concrete structure, approximately 800 feet long, and was equipped with 40 in-ground cells from ground level and deep into the ground 28 feet. And the cells were equipped with the necessary processing equipment, and all the processing equipment in the cells were stainless steel. Weisskopf: Let me ask you this: You had a pretty good technical background just in general technical issues, but why did they take you to a laboratory for strictly chemical process, do you think? Knight: As I look back on it now, Gene, my only thoughts were that the whole process then had to be hinging around chemical operations. And that would be an ideal spot to start out and really learn the processes from the ground up. Weisskopf: Okay. Yeah. Knight: And I was very fortunate, because that was the case. The more I started learning about the process, the more intense my desire to learn. It grew and grew to where it was really exciting, because the more I learned about the process, then the more I understood about it. And the more I understood about these things, the greater the “awe” effect became, that My goodness, they’ve done all these things in such short periods of time, such as building a complete facility in 17 months, building a tank farm to support that facility in the same time frame, and at the same time doing a lot of research along the way to actually assure themselves that the process would actually work. Because most of the work initially was done on a very small scale to begin with, and then it was blown up to be a full-fledged process in a large volume plant. Weisskopf: So by the time you got there, at least it had already been proven that the process, the entire Hanford process, works. Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: At least you got to step in saying Oh, whatever they were trying to do actually works. Now we can go on from that point. Knight: That’s right. And they were constantly in the experimental stage to improve their capability and abilities as to what was going on. Now, I mentioned initially that the canyon had 40 cells in it in the initial startup and operation of the facilities, and we ran that way for a number of years with using only 20 of the cells. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: And then as we continued to forge ahead, and the needs and the operation continued to grow and became more and more interesting as to what happened in the process and how they could improve their abilities to produce at a higher rate. They put the second series of cells into play, and this was called parallel operation. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Knight: And we increased the output from the plant. Because, bear in mind that as this process went, it was very slow and very meticulous and very tedious in getting the maximum amount of plutonium out of the uranium that was being processed. And it was very strange, because the initial volume of material that was put into play, the uranium was in the tonnage levels, and the extracted material, the plutonium, was in the gram phase. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: And that was tremendous, to run through large volumes of processing in a tank, two, three, four thousand up to as much as six thousand gallon vessels, and continue to control this, and make sure that you knew exactly what you had and where you had it in a given time in the process. Very unique. And, of course, that’s where the laboratory came in. It was actually called the process control lab. And in order to adjust and maintain the process, why, samples had to be taken at each step during the processing. As the material went from one phase of extraction in the separation to reduction, oxidation reduction type phase, why, you had to sample at all stages. And not only did you sample for the product, but you also sampled the waste streams to ensure that none of the product was going out in the waste streams. Or if there was any going out, it was an absolute minimum allowable. Weisskopf: Let me ask I think what is probably always going to be there, but because it was such a nationally critical material, the faster you guys got it processed, the better; and the faster you could do the sampling, the faster you could make the chemistry go, the better it would be all around? Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: Now, the process was all designed to accommodate those needs. And this was another thing that was just amazing, to know that here was a brand new introduction to a this type of energy that we had never even considered that would be available to us on a daily basis. And to have started all of this with instantaneous construction, building, and putting the buildings into what we call a turnkey operation to begin with, once it was built, you would turn the key and open the door and went in and started the processing. That was amazing. And since the construction of the process facilities was done in such a secretive manner that the construction workers that were assigned to do certain phases of putting in interconnecting piping and what not were moved from time to time, and that was usually on a day or every-other-day basis, so that they never really had a true configuration in their minds as to what was being done and how the system was being built and what it would be used for. So all of those things were highly, just mind-boggling. Weisskopf: How did that affect your job? You said they were introducing you to the entire process, the best way to learn was in the lab. How did security impinge on your knowledge of at least the separations process? Did they limit you in any way? Knight: Oh, yes. They had a very large technical manual that was available at that time of the whole buildup and the history of what was taking place in this technical manual, but you didn’t have full authorization to take the technical manual and sit down and read it at that stage. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Knight: That came later, that they made the technical manuals available to almost anyone that worked there after a period of time. Weisskopf: Did you know where the fuel was coming from, or how it was processed before it got to you guys? Knight: They started telling us this early on, that the uranium was put into a process mode and put into the reactors. And at that stage, why, it was being transmitted transmuted, I should say, to make the plutonium. Weisskopf: And what about within your process itself? Did you know when the material that you were processing ended up leaving the building and going to the concentration building. Did you understand that whole leg of the process, too? Knight: Yes, we did. Because that was all in well, within a stone’s throw of the canyon building was the laboratory, and next to the laboratory was the first phase of the concentration. It was the first phase through the operation. And once we got the plutonium in the rough-cut stage, I’ll put it that way, then it was moved from 224-T Building down to the 231-Z Building, which was the final concentration and purification operation. And the all of this was controlled, as I said, through the laboratory, and samples had to be taken in the processing facilities. In the canyon facility they had to keep the canyon in prime clean condition, because in order to get samples the way the system was built then was to take people right in on the processing deck with all the cells closed, and they had sample systems that they would go in and turn on what we called the air circulation, which was a circulated process, solution out of the vessel up through a sample receiving cup and back into the processing vessel. Well, they would circulate this for a minimum of ten minutes to ensure that they have gotten a representative sample out of this large vessel. And then they had special equipment that they inserted down into the sample cup and pulled the sample into it, and the high activity samples in the early process we used what they called a shielded trombone sampler. It was an all-stainless unit, and it had a release on it that lowered the actual sampling tip down into the solution. Then they used a syringe to pull the solution into a pipette that was at the bottom of this sampler. And those pipettes that were used on the bottom of the sampler were calibrated to a ½ or 1 ml. And the real hot ones, of course, we only took a ½ ml. And then the unit was retracted up into a shielded portion of the sampler, and then we had a shielded container called a doorstop that was placed very close to the sample port that was immediately transferred then into the doorstop. And at that point the sample pipette was disengaged from the sampler assembly, and then the lid on the doorstop was closed with a handle that clamped down and held the top of it sealed so in the event that it was tipped over it didn’t spill. And then they carried that by hand to a wagon. In the early stages, we didn’t have the wagons to begin with, and they would carry these then from there to the building, and that was to the 222 T Building, where I was. Then when the samplers came in the door of the 222 laboratory, they had a special window right inside the door on the right-hand side as they entered, and they rang a bell, which was a push-button bell at the window, and then they set the sampling equipment up on the Dutch door type platform on top of the at the bottom of the window. Weisskopf: So they wouldn’t actually have to come into the lab? Knight: They did not. Then we’d open the door and pull the sampler equipment in and set it down on the stainless steel benches. Weisskopf: Would you pull just the doorstop, or all the trombone and everything else? Knight: Any sampling equipment that they brought over at that time. Sometimes it would take two or three samples while they were in the building, or in the canyon, and would take the process samples that contained the product. And that’s what it was always referred to, we never talked about it being plutonium. You always spoke of the product. And then they would also take waste samples, because, as I said, as they processed from stage to stage in the canyon building, they would take the sample of the product to ensure that they still had it, and the volume and the condition of it as far as isolation. And then the waste that came off of that, they took samples of those waste streams and brought those over to the building. And naturally as you’re processing this way, wastes are very important to get out of the building. Otherwise they’d back up and fill your vessels, would shut you down. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: So that’s kind of the way the process always emanated and controlled, and it was really very interesting. Weisskopf: What was your job actually, then, you know, a few months after you got there? What was your daily routine? You were in the lab? Knight: In the lab. As soon as they found out that I could use the pipetting equipment, because, again, college chemistry, if you remember, taking samples, everybody used to draw the sample up into the pipettes in college labs by mouth. And this was an absolute no-no, and you didn’t do that sort of thing. So the way we done it out there was we had these small syringes, the same type that the medical profession uses to inoculate you. And different sizes. The smaller volumes that you were going to work with, the smaller the syringe that you needed, down to where but you couldn’t go too tiny because you were going to hold this in your hand. And attached to the end of the syringe was a small piece of intravenous tubing that we used, and then the pipette was placed into the intravenous tubing to actually get a sample, especially the waste samples, were by hand. Weisskopf: If they took just a 1 ml sample, would that be enough for you guys to work with, then? Knight: It was enough to give us at least two complete analyses. If we ran an analysis and it didn’t meet the expectation that we anticipated at that phase of the process, then we were asked to verify the analysis, so we had enough sample to run it again. Weisskopf: Okay. Let me ask you this: If you took that sample early on in the process so it was hot, how close could you get to it and how long could you be near it? Knight: All right. For the real hot samples in the laboratory, we had a breakdown facility I say breakdown; actually, a dilution-type facility and it was called the Rube Goldberg, where we actually set the doorstop in behind this leaded shield window, and then we had a remote pipetter that we put a fresh pipette in, and then we would open the doorstop, and just turn it. It was on a swivel, and we’d turn it, put the pipette down into the doorstop sampler that contained the real hot stuff, and then we had a 10 ml flask units that we used to set in adjacent to that prior to opening everything up. You got everything in position before you opened the doorstop. And then you would take a minute amount, like 100 ml, of this half we had ½ ml to begin with, and then we would take 100 lambda of that and dilute it in this 10 ml vial that was almost already full of solution. And then after we done that, then we would close the doorstops and take these small vials and then dilute them to a calibrated mark so that we could make back calculations as to what volumes we were working with. Weisskopf: Right. Okay. Knight: So this was very, very important that all, when you pipette it out of the doorstop, you pipette it up to a given line on the TAPE RAN OUT Knight: to get it right on the get the meniscus right on the mark, and then transfer that into the 10 ml flask. And that was the way we worked the hot ones. That was quite routine, and it became people became very and highly proficient in doing these operations, and without getting themselves into any kind of an exposure problem. Weisskopf: And when you took a sample, was the process basically stopped at that point before they would transfer the materials on to the next step? Knight: No, no, they always waited for the results to come back before the material was moved to the next step. Weisskopf: It was. So the process would be held up while you guys were doing your work. Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: And what was the pressure for you guys to get it right if for some reason you didn’t find the numbers the way you wanted? Knight: Well, they had pretty good time frames as to how long it would take the laboratory to make an analysis for them. And the only time that they really got outstandingly pushy against the laboratory was when we would have a result that they didn’t felt met the criteria for the batch that they were moving. And if that be the case, then they’d call for a re-sample, and that meant the samplers had to come back, run over and take a sample out of the canyon, rush it over to us, and that was put on what we called the rush category, and that had to be done immediately. Weisskopf: How long would that take, do you think? If you got the word that you needed a new sample until you actually had the sample in hand, would it be minutes, or an hour, or...? Knight: Well, they could have a sample to us in 30 minutes. And in most cases that would always be the situation. However, if they were going to be working in another cell in the process, like a leak or something like this, why, they would have, if they were going to have a cell block off, they normally did not let anybody in on deck when that was happening. So they would have to put a cover block back on before they could do that, and that would take by the time that they knew that they had to take a sample, they’d already told the crane operator that they had to close up because they had to take a sample. Weisskopf: Okay. And the crane operator was theoretically the only one in the canyon while things were going on? Knight: That’s correct. And he was behind a shielded parapet wall. And from his position in the crane cab, which was behind that parapet wall, then he was in a solid steel cube. Actually, I say solid steel cube, it was a cube with an operational area in it that was heavy eight-inch steel all the way around him. And then we had modified Navy periscopes, the same type that they used on the submarines, that had been modified so that they could project on a horizontal plane out, and the magnifying heads could be rotated to give him views down the canyon or straight down. And it had a three-power configuration where he could change his magnification when he was up above looking and moving, and then go down closer. And then when the cell block was off, actually get right down to where he was seeing in the cell with very good visibility. Weisskopf: Where were the lights for looking down into a cell? Knight: They had lights on the crane itself. Weisskopf: That would shine straight down? Knight: That’s right. As well as ceiling lights in the canyon. But the crane operators always used, naturally, the lights on the crane because they were a high intensity spotlight type thing. And they had four or five on each side of the bridge, as I remember, and they’d shine straight down so that his work areas were highly lit and visible. Weisskopf: If the crane operator was doing his job right, everything went, if something went wrong, there wasn’t anybody on the canyon floor to correct what he was doing or to make it easier. An awful lot of it fell on his shoulders. Knight: That’s correct. And if it was a really touchy job that he had to do, why, it was a very common practice that someone from the operations building would actually go up and ride with him when he was doing that particular job. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: And that’s what I was going to say, that having had experience, some experience over the years of going out and working at the 100 B Reactor, for example, on a special project, and having been transferred out of the laboratory into the operations side of the business, and having worked in the tank farm operations over the years, why, it makes it pretty easy for me to talk about these things, Gene. Because when you’ve worked in all the different places, then you really can focus and get a good idea of all of the outcroppings and the work that went on. Weisskopf: Okay. You’ve seen the whole picture. Knight: It kind of gives you the big picture, yes. That doesn’t make me an expert, say, in the 100 areas nor in the processing facilities, because we had people that well, we had the working groups available in the various facilities, such as the chemists were working, and most of them would work in laboratories, chemical engineering personnel in the facilities, and then we always had the process chemistry group, which were all the high technical process engineering or chemical engineering type people that were always constantly looking at what was going on in the process and tell you what adjustments had to be made to get us to where we wanted to be. So it was well-controlled and well-orchestrated in the way that they done business, even from the very beginning. And that was one of the reasons that the DuPont Company was chosen, I’m sure, because of their background in chemistry and their dedicated records, or track record I should say, for doing good work and working with explosives and various types of energy that way. Weisskopf: Right. And DuPont was still at Hanford when you came, right? Knight: Yes, indeed. Weisskopf: Until almost the end of ‘46? Knight: That’s correct. They left in well, they made the transition to General Electric Company in September of ‘46. And then they stayed available on an advisory capacity in high echelon positions until General Electric had settled in and had full control. Weisskopf: How quickly after you got there did your job all of a sudden change, or did they shift you around? Knight: It was pretty much on an individual’s abilities and capabilities versus the availability of new jobs, different places. And, of course, we have to bear in mind that a number of things were taking place. There was more demands for not only plutonium, but we started having people in the high forehead area, I’m going to say, that were already looking at possibilities for utilizing some of the other radioisotope materials that we were discovering. There was constant research going on in a number of the colleges around the country that were included in the program, Berkeley being one. And those people were getting actual samples of some of our materials, and they were also doing a lot of research, and development was just coming and going as fast as you could ever want it. So at that stage it was pretty tough to really get totally on board as to what was happening because so much and so many things were happening simultaneously. But it was all going, and it was really exciting because you knew, you could just sense the high intensity of things that were happening. And I’ve often said that I hated to go home from work in the afternoons, and I couldn’t wait till I got there the next morning. Weisskopf: Wow. Knight: It was really great. And, of course, that continued to energize and grow into what I call the Fabulous Fifties, when they radioisotope business became high reality, and separations were actually starting to separate specific isotopes that they found would have a need in the public markets for various things, up to and including the treatment of cancers that we’re still using today. Weisskopf: And I guess the prospects for nuclear energy itself were pretty darn high at that point. Knight: Extremely high. And, Gene, I have to say that we did not get off on the right foot with nuclear energy because it started out as a war born thing and initially was classified to have a 20-year life expectancy. And it was looked upon, every time you say anything about nuclear energy, the first thing they see is the big mushroom cloud, and the aspects of a war developed industry that was strictly to win a war. And that was so true at the time. But after we were into the thing for a while, then it became highly apparent that there was a lot of good things to come out of the system for the benefits of humanity. But it became a very difficult sell, because people had already been I won’t say poisoned in their minds, but had already been predestined to make decisions on the basis of it was a war type material and that’s all it was good for. And it’s a shame, because we know that we had well, I’ll cite the space program, NASA’s programs. In the early stages it was not too difficult for them to shoot a man up in the air and bring him back to earth in a short durational thing. But then they started extending their time in space, and they had to go to highly energized systems because everything was battery operated then, and they were using solar power to regenerate the batteries. And after we got up and starting orbiting, why, they got into some real close problems of not being able to bring personnel back, because when they got on the back side of the planet, the moon, this sort of thing, why, they were in the dark side, and they couldn’t solar energize batteries. And we were very close on a couple of occasions on return trips. And so during that phase, why, some generators were made, and Hanford played a major role in it, the Battelle Industries did, on building what we called snap generators. And they were used in space and still are, to my knowledge. So there were benefits in that light. And, again, from a medicinal standpoint, there were those benefits. And I guess the person that said it the very best in my book was Dixie Lee Ray, the administrator for the Atomic Energy Commission, and she stood before Congress and told them that the things that we were developing and using in the nuclear industry were no different than when things were developed such as electricity and people were injured and killed by misuses of electricity, but then we finally got it to where everybody now can walk into a room and flip a little switch and we have no problems with it. And I thought that that was an outstanding way to present something like that. And she said just think what it’s given the individual, the working class people in this world, when back in the days of the pharaohs with all of their money and magnificence, they did not have that type of control and services. And she felt that the nuclear industry was well on the road to getting us into that same category. And, to me, that just opened a whole new way of life for everybody, and I think that it still has that opportunity, and someday we’ll regret the fact that we’ve been so emphatic and vicious in shutting down our systems in this country. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. To me, it’s like the discovery was made and it will always be there now. Knight: That’s correct. Weisskopf: How we utilize it and what ways we put it to use. Knight: And we’ve already demonstrated that under proper control and constantly upgraded maintenance programs, why, the systems work well to supply high energy needs. And unless I need to say too much more, Gene, I’m going to say that in my book, from what I know about the wars in history and our current wars and positions, that nations that have had energy and utilized their energies in proper perspective, were always people that were respected and controlled, or had controls, I’ll say. And as we continue to reduce our ability to have energies and be in control positions puts us in jeopardy, and I feel that very strongly. Weisskopf: Interesting. That’s very good. To have a perspective on that whole career that you had really, to me, it makes me realize that you were excited about it. It was something brand new, it was totally undeveloped, and you got to see it start from almost nothing to a thousand different industries branching out of it. It’s really great. Knight: And I think that that was one of the reasons that I enjoyed, even after retirement, of staying and helping whenever I could. And I still feel very strongly that the industry still has its place and someday will probably utilize it a little bit better than we have. Weisskopf: Yeah. You never worked in the private sector? Knight: I never have worked in the private sector. Weisskopf: Was it always within the confines of Hanford? Knight: Yes, indeed. Weisskopf: Okay. You didn’t travel around the country doing Knight: Did not. Weisskopf: what other people did? Knight: Oh, on a couple of occasions I did, Gene. But it was only because we had a specific interest in a given type function, such as and I’ll mention one. We were very interested in reducing waste volumes at Hanford, and the best way to do that would be to size the waste that you were going to put into boxes to be buried into the ground. And we were looking at setting up a sizing operation of our own in the plutonium finishing plant, and one of the other companies in the nation that was at that time at Rocky Flats in Colorado had let us know that they were already doing some sizing type work. And a couple of us were sent down to look at it. I say a couple. There was a number of trips made. And then from a health physics standpoint, because I was in health physics at the time, they sent people like myself and Bernie Sariffic down, and we made an observation as to what they were doing and whether it was compatible with the way we like to do business at Hanford. And it turned out that we had already put our oar in the water, so to speak, and the program that we had outlined for Hanford was going to be superior to the program that they had at Rocky Flats. So it was things like that that were also very interesting. Weisskopf: Have you ever seen any of the fuel processing facilities in Europe, or where they use them for part of their normal commercial stream? Knight: Only from information and documentation that I had looked at here. Now, I did make a trip to Belgium in 1993, strictly a private type thing on the request of one of my sons-in-law to go with him, because he was looking at starting another little business of his own, importing pigeon feeds, because he’s a pigeon racer. Weisskopf: And while you were there... Knight: So we got a chance to look around a little bit. And at that time Belgium had one reactor in service, and was just bringing on the second, and had already started the process of building their third, which would have put them at 100% nuclear utilization. And, of course, then interest in other countries. The French, for example, were getting up into the area of about 70%. Weisskopf: These people have to deal, then, with fuel reprocessing and all the associated chemistry. Knight: Exactly. Weisskopf: And it would be interesting, I guess, to see how they’re doing that. Knight: Well, it certainly would be, because I know that we’re getting and I refer to it as constipated, because we’re not reprocessing any fuels now, and all of our power reactor people are having problems with backup storage of their spent fuel, and that’s going to catch up to us. As a matter of fact, it’s become a very, very real problem at this time. Weisskopf: Yeah. But in your experience, it would have been a really straightforward step up from what you were doing with separations to dealing with the commercial power plants around the country to reprocess their fuel? Knight: That’s correct. But we had already made the studies, Gene, and had that information available. As a matter of fact, we had already started making some equipment conversions in the PUREX plant to accommodate commercial fuel reprocessing. Weisskopf: Okay. Knight: And that’s all on record. Weisskopf: And I guess some of the down sides of that are you have to transport it around the country. Knight: That’s true. But we’re still transporting wastes around the country. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: And I think that will continue. As a matter of fact, I sat in on a very interesting discussion in Yakima here probably eight or nine years ago now, where they had people convinced here in Yakima that we should just absolutely refuse to let them truck any wastes through Yakima or any that fly over in Yakima. And during the course of the discussion, from inputs from people like myself and others, why, it became highly apparent that, hey, if you do that, you have to remember that you’re going to shut your hospitals down, you’re not going to be able to have the x-ray equipment calibrated from time to time like we have to do to make sure that it’s within bounds. And all of a sudden they said uh-oh, okay, maybe we’re trying to get the cart before the horse. And I think all too frequently we do that. Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: And it’s an understandable thing, especially when we’ve had such a tremendous training program where everything nuclear was war oriented. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: It’s going to take a long time to phase out of that, and I think we’re eventually getting there. People are a little bit more friendly towards nuclear industry, and they’re seeing that we’re still building new cancer clinics everywhere and using isotopes to treat those people in dire need. And I think that we’ve got to really look at everything with a good strong sense of realism, that hey, go back with what I originally said about Dixie Lee Ray saying that we injured people when we first introduced electricity, and she also made mention of the fact that we’ve done the same thing with gasoline, another form of energy that we all use today. Weisskopf: Right. Knight: We use very carelessly at this stage in our lives, in many cases. Weisskopf: Oh, yeah. There was a time when we were running out of gasoline. Somehow or other we’re not running out of it anymore. Knight: It’s very strange. Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: Well, we’re buying now a lot of our oils and products from other countries, too, and this is another one of those areas that gives me concern is that we’re putting ourselves on the table and being dependent on everybody else rather than depending on ourselves again. Weisskopf: Yeah. Knight: Especially in the forms of energies. Weisskopf: Hey, it’s been about an hour, and I maybe want to let you go before we drain you completely for this period of time. Knight: I really appreciated the opportunity, Gene, and it’s a real pleasure. Weisskopf: Me very much so also. It’s great that you feel comfortable about remembering it. That in itself is a feat, I think, for all the experiences that you had over many years. It’s just great to have you laying it out like cards on a table. Would it be okay if I come up with specific questions for you that we do it again? Knight: Absolutely. Absolutely. Anytime, Gene. Weisskopf: All right. Well, thank you very much, Russ. [End of Interview] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58 minutes, 47 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Russ Night Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Russ Night conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd35964aec193b1b7fd28948c24cf64e1.jpg ffbf5469442b4c402cf5a627b074bd5d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd33967aae97ba9a6a5cefd32188558af.mp4 492460847de1bc4edcc96e8b10af6349 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sally Slate Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Robert Bauman: Say your name and spell your last name for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Sally Slate: Okay. Sally Slate. S-L-A-T-E. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. My name’s Robert Bauman and today’s date is August 5th of 2015. We’re conducting this interview at Sally Slate’s home in Richland, Washington. So let’s—if we could, start by having you give us some background information on when you came to the Tri-Cities, what brought you here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, I was a new graduate from the University of Idaho in June of 1955. I guess I was attracted to this area because I was going with a young man that still had a couple of years of schooling, and I wanted to be kind of close to the University of Idaho for him. Unfortunately, we broke up. [LAUGHTER] But I came as a tech grad for GE. These were three-month assignments where we rotated different assignments. My first assignment was to open up the chemistry lab at PUREX building that was still under construction. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And were you familiar with Hanford before you came here? Did you know much about the place? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yes, I was, because we have an atomic energy site near southern Idaho, and my father was working there. So I was quite well-informed. In fact, I’d taken some classes in nuclear energy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And had you been to Richland or the Tri-Cities before? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And did you have a first impression when you arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, everybody had told me that I was going to hate it, that it was desolate, sagebrush. I came here and I thought, gee, I’m at home! Snake River’s just around the corner. And [LAUGHTER] sagebrush, I’m well-acquainted with. Potato fields? Yes. And also, I felt very comfortable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So you said your first job was opening up the chem lab at PUREX. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Can you describe what that was like? What that work was like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: It was doing a lot of dish-washing. Because everything had to be taken out of the boxes, we had to figure out where to put it in the lab, we had to get the equipment set up and tested. There were two or three of us doing that job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And can you maybe explain what PUREX was, for [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: PUREX is the separations plant that was—the fuel went in on one end of the building and made a continuous run and we got the plutonium and uranium separated at the end. The REDOX Plant, you had to do it in batches. But this was a continuous process, so it was going to be a little more efficient. As I say, it had not been—they were still under construction at the time that I was out there. And unfortunately, when we got here, nobody had Q clearances, and they thought that we needed Q clearances. So they set us in the unclassified library until they finally figured out that, oh, our clearances are all sitting on somebody’s desk and he’s on vacation, and you don’t need a Q clearance anyways, so put them to work! [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So that was your first job. Where did you go from there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh. The next job was at the REDOX Plant. It was not really a happy experience. I wanted to be in the lab. As a woman chemist, I don’t think they appreciated women chemists in the lab at that time. It was trying to put together a compilation of all of the procedures that were being done, and trying to classify them so that if we got some kind of an assignment, you had to—okay, we need this analysis done. What procedures do we have available to do it? And it was well before the capabilities of our computer systems and everything now. I just didn’t appreciate that assignment. Then I went into the classified library as an abstractor. Where I had to read all of the classified—we were one of four—reading classified materials that came in. Everything from books to reports and anything generated that came into the library. We had to write a small paragraph about what the—without saying anything classified. We did bibliographies, computer searches. Except it wasn’t a computer search, it was a search of the index cards and made up answered questions that would come in. That was an interesting job. But it wasn’t as fun as being in the lab. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And how long did you work there in the classified library? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, that was pretty much—well, that was a permanent position. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I worked there until I had been married and was expecting a child. And then they required me to quit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. So you talked about being a woman chemist and it didn’t seem like you were really welcome in the lab, or that they wanted—were there other women chemists around at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: There were a few. There was a couple of others. Actually—let’s see. I’m thinking as the abstractors, the other chemist who was an abstractor was a mathematician. And the other woman was a mathematician. They were drawing the abstractors from the scientific fields, because you could teach somebody to be an abstractor, but you couldn’t teach the scientific part of it as easily. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. So was it a GE policy that when you were married and— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: --you had to quit? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yes. Five months, period. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, you had five months after you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: After you got pregnant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: After you got pregnant, that you could work and then you had to quit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: That was routine. When I got to working in Idaho for Argonne National Lab, they said I could I work as long as I wanted. As long as I could do the job. Phillips Petroleum says, we think you’re pregnant. Prove it that you’re not. Otherwise, you’re gone. There’s definite bias there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: They didn’t want us riding the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: And I was riding a bus 75 miles each way. Twice a day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Do you know when that policy changed? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I don’t. Because my next experience out here was in the ‘70s. And by that time, the policy had changed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Sometime in between there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Sometime in between. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Yeah, it changed. So let’s talk about transportation. You said you had to ride a bus out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Pretty much every day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Here in Richland, we had the buses. They would pick up at specified places along the—in town. Or you could drive your car out to the big bus lot, and leave your car there and transfer to the bus that you were going to be going out into the Area on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. And where was the lot at? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh, go out Stevens, on the left-hand side as you go out Stevens. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: They’ve transformed it into—part of it was an area where the police are doing training. After they had just redone the parking lot and spent millions doing the parking lot, then they decided, oh, we’ll close the buses down. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I wanted to ask you about housing when you arrived in Richland. What sort of housing was available, or wasn’t available? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, when you first come, you check into the Desert Inn, which was the only hotel in town. Then you check with the Housing Authority, and the housing office assigns you housing according to your job, and your status—your marital status. And being single, I was assigned to one of the dormitories. And we still see the dormitories around. W-5 was just off of Lee—Lee and Knight. It was definitely a dormitory. It had a house mother. Doors were closed on the weekdays at 10:00 at night. The doors were locked. It was later than that for the weekends. But you had a little room, furnished. If you took the furniture out and put your own furniture in, you couldn’t get their furniture back if you changed your mind. It was cheap. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Do you remember how much it cost? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I don’t. But something--$20 a month or less. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And so how long did you stay in the dorm then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I stayed in the dorm until—well, I went into a private apartment with a friend. And then we got married and went into a two-bedroom prefab down here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, okay, sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: In the south end of town. When those houses went up for sale, we could have bought that house for $1,875. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. We thought it was too small for us, because by then we had two small children. We bought a pre-cut. Three-bedroom pre-cut from a friend. They didn’t want the house, but if they had just moved into the house that they were going to buy, they would have had to remove all of the improvements that they’d put into the house, which included the wall-to-wall carpeting, drapes, electrical for a dryer, a fenced-in backyard. All of that would have had to have been removed. And they would have lost all of that investment. So they bought the house and sold it immediately to us at a slightly higher price to accommodate for their investments. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: How would you describe Richland in the ‘50s? I know it was a government town, still, when you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: It was government town, yeah. Everything. The schools were—GE ran it all for the government. Police department, schools—just about all of the—anything that had to do with the town. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And did that change significantly when it sort of became its own city, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: It was very gradual. They started selling the houses—we became a town in October of ’57? ’57. And the houses were being sold in ’58. Early ’58, we bought our house on Smith. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I know one of the events from the community happenings or things was when President Kennedy came to visit in 1963. Were you here then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: ’63, we were not. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh, had you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: We had left. Took a while to wander around to Idaho and Washington, but kept coming closer and closer, and finally said, we got to go home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: You talked about having to get a—well, you thought you had to get your Q clearance, then didn’t have to get a Q clearance. What was security like at Hanford at the time? Would that impact your work—I mean you were working in classified libraries, so that part-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. You could get into—up to the 300 Area. But there was a barrier there. You couldn’t go through the barrier without a clearance. You had to have at least a Q clearance—or not a Q clearance, a Nil clearance is what they called it, was the beginning clearance. But then to get into the 200 Area, and to get into Two West, you had to have a Q clearance. That was just—you had a badge and it had your type of clearance on it. If you were working around the areas where there was a lot of radiation or potential radiation, then you’d wear pencils, and you might wear a ring. The ring would be checked weekly, and if it showed anything, then they would check your badge. Badges were changed out, I think, on a monthly basis. I never was in a situation where I accumulated anything. You had hand and shoe counters that you had to check into the building and check out of the building—using the hand and shoe counters to make sure you weren’t carrying anything there. Because those would be the two areas that would be most apt to pick up something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So where was the classified library located? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: In the 300 Area. The building is still there. I don’t remember the building number. It was across from 319. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And you mentioned—so you got married in— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: In March of ’56. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay, and did your husband also work at Hanford then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: And what area did he work in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: He was at Three West Area. The REDOX area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: We happened to be riding the same bus together. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Is that how you met? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Actually, we met at the Mart cafeteria. That building on Lee and Knight that has Sirs and Hers Barbershop and had a gun shop in there. But at that time it was a 24-hour cafeteria. There was a drugstore in part of it. And there was a jewelry store up front and a little lounge area, the Evergreen Lounge, in the back. We’d just—I’d just gotten off of my first day of swing shift. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: And he had just gotten off work. We were in there having coffee. The girl I was with knew him, and knew the other fellow that he was with. But then I discovered that we rode the same bus. Or, rather, I made sure we rode the same bus. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So how was Hanford as a place to work, then? I know you talked about not really being able to work as a chemist [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, I don’t think it was any different than working anywhere else at that time. Because there were restrictions everywhere. My original plan when going to college—I wanted to be a veterinarian. And after one year of pre-vet being the only girl in the School of Agriculture, I was told there was no way in hell that a woman would be accepted into the School— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Oh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: --of Veterinary Science. And that I needed to choose something else. So, I went into chemistry, which is another love that I had. I was one of two women—first two that had graduated in chemistry in five years from the University of Idaho. And now, you know what percentage of women are. Far more women than men. And the same veterinary school now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> [PHONE CHIMES] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Sorry about that. Talking about Richland, I was going to ask you one other question about the town. In terms of entertainment or things to do for fun, what was there in the area in 1955, ’56? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, pretty much the same things that we have now. The Richland Players was a movie house at that time. The roller skating rink was there. We could ride horses—we could rent horses out on Van Giesen. Boating. Pretty much the same mix of things that we have now. At that time, we had the symphony, we had Richland Players, although they were having their plays in the schools at that time. But those were the things—and bowling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: So when did you move away from Richland, and when did you come back then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh. We left in ’58, ’59. We left in ’59—June of ’59. And we came back for good in ’71. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Had the place changed a lot in that time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Grown! Yes. Not so much Richland. Although it was beginning to grow. But the areas between Richland and Kennewick that used to be grapevines and all kinds of farmland where Columbia Center was getting started and it just—I didn’t know my way around. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Are there any things I haven’t asked you, or anything you’d like to talk about that you haven’t had a chance to talk about yet, in terms of your work at Hanford, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: At Hanford? Of the early years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Yeah! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I don’t know. I enjoyed it very much. It was very mentally stimulating. And even the recreational things that were here were—because we had the symphony, we had the Richland Players. And it’s good to see that they are growing. If we’d only get our performing arts center. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I’m with you on that. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: We’re with you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: And they’re saying 20, 30 years, and I don’t have that many years left, I’m afraid. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for letting us come to your home and interview you, talk to you. I appreciate your sharing your experiences with us very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Well, it’s been kind of interesting, thinking back to those days. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: I had a quick question, comment. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: So when you were in the labs— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: What would you do? What were you doing in, like the PUREX or the—what sort of thing would you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Oh. Well, the laboratory was an analytical lab. And they were divided into hot sections and cold sections. The hot section would receive the really radioactive materials that had to be handled in big glass-enclosed, with lead—a glass so wide. But I was never involved in that real high level. By the time I got things, it was down to the very low level radioactive materials that we could handle in a hood with ventilation. We wore just a lab coat. I’m trying to think if we even, in those days—I don’t think even at REDOX that I was involved with anything higher than just very low level materials. And we would separate out the plutonium or the uranium out of the fraction that we got, and would pipette it onto steel planchets. Little steel discs. And then the discs would go downstairs to the counting lab, and would be put into the counting lab and they would determine how many counts per minute were coming off of that. That would tell them the amount of radiation that there was, the amount of material that there was in that. We did everything in duplicates and triplicates, to make sure that we hadn’t made a mistake. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Most everything was done triplicates. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: So you didn’t work in the hot cells because of gender? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No, no. I didn’t work in the hot cells because I didn’t work in the—I was never assigned to it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: But that wasn’t a gender-based— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: I was trying to— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: No, I don’t think it was gender-based at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: The other question I had was—so, GE and stuff, if you were five months pregnant, then that was the time to separate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yep. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: Did you have a job to come back to, or that was terminated? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: [LAUGHTER] You had a job to come back to if there was a job available. That was part of the reasoning, they said, oh, that going into the classified laboratory was perfect for you, because there’ll always be a job available. Little did they know that computers were coming along, and computers were going to do all the abstracting and all the bibliography. You’d punch in a question and they’d come out with all the answers of here’s the materials that we have available on that subject. So computers did away with that job. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. Had your old job been available, would you have had it, or would you have had to reapply? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: I would have had to reapply. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: Yeah, it wasn’t an automatic thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Slate: You were expected, as a young married mother, to stay home with your children. At least until they got into school. That wasn’t to say that there weren’t people who went back to work right away. But it was not the usual thing. Of course, I wanted to be able to stay home with the kids. By the time I had three, I had to go to work. [LAUGHTER] By that time, I started looking around and thinking, well, what can I do? I can go back to school and get a job as a teacher. So I got my teaching degree. And I taught school for five years until we decided we got to go home, we got to come back here to Richland. And that’s when I got back into the chemistry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: All right, well, thank you again very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man three: Thanks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Bauman: I really appreciate your time and letting us come in here. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX184015053"> Man one: Okay. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:30:46 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 223 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 200 Area Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site Sally Slate passed away on July 26, 2017. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sally Slate Description An account of the resource An interview with Sally Slate conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/5/2015 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 200 Area 300 Area Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1e70e5f6902f36a8dce5b5ec4f9229c3.jpg 2299143b7462e91e44a8263168c065d0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F668060df69888e4182ac2a6dd4aa0020.mp4 1c1a7cedc234e0082608686d3d8c0ae2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Samuel Moore Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Northwest Public Television | Moore_Samuel </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Robert Bauman: My name is Robert Bauman, and I am conducting an oral history interview with Samuel Moore, correct? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Samuel Moore: Right, Samuel-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: This date is July 9, 2013. And the interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. And I'll be talking with Mr. Moore about his experiences working at Hanford site, living in Richland and so forth. So maybe let's start actually from the beginning, if you want, could you tell me how and why you came to Hanford, how you heard about it, how you got here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Okay, I'm going to tell you how I got here. My father was working at a cook in the mental section of Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. And he came home, and he says, there's a better job at Hanford, Washington. So he left and came out. Then he told them that I can't be here without my family. So they put us on, I think it was a troop train, and it stopped in Pasco and set us off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Could you--where is Camp Chaffee, Arkansas? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: It's east of Ft. Smith and that, so. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And how old were you at the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: About eight. And then we come in--put us off of this I'll call it a troop train, because there was a zillion soldiers on it. And it picks up and they took us to Kennewick to a place called Naval Housing. And that's where they put the people coming in for Hanford workers to stay until a house was available. And we stayed there, and then from there we moved to this nice little square building which had a flat top, set up on stilts. And it was called a prefab at 1300 Totten Street. And that means that we lived at the end house. The telephones were on the telephone poles at the end of the block. So when the phone would ring you were told to answer the phone and go get whoever it wanted who. So that's the way we started in Richland. And we lived there for I don't know how long. And then we moved to different houses around Richland until I graduated from Columbia High School, which was Columbia High School in Richland at that time. Now it's Richland High. And then after that I did a short job with a construction company. And then I went to work for General Electric, running one of their blueprint machines when they were getting ready to build the REDOX Building and the PUREX Building. So I'd go, I was the first one in to warm up the machines and run them for a while. And then after while I got uplined and I could deliver those suckers out into the area. So that was my starting with General Electric then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay, so let me go back a little bit. So what year did your family arrive then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: 19--it was either 1943 or '44. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay. And your father, was he a cook here also? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No, no. He'd come out and he was a, as we call them today, rent-a-cop. He was a patrolman out there. And he worked as a patrolman ‘til he retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And you said that your first job was with General Electric, and what year would that have been? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: About 1953 or 4. Then I went from there, like I say I was in the blueprint sections and all that. And then I had a job—I got a chance to become an engineer's assistant. And then when they were going out and building different things, so that helped me get into the other sections of General Electric and so on. And when that one cut, I transferred into radiation monitoring. And that was when they had the Hanford labs, and the old animal farm was at 100 F Area. So I worked in that group until--I forget what year it was. I'm not good on years and dates. But when they decided they were going to re-tube all of those reactors out there in the hundred areas and so they could put bigger slugs in them and all that stuff, I worked on that until about 1957. And they said, guess what? We're not going to pay you anymore. So I left here. But I stayed with the government job. I went to the Nevada test site and blew all the plutonium up that they made out here. So then I came back to Hanford in 1960. So then I was still in radiation monitoring and worked all kinds of different places, tank farms and everywhere else out there that I could think about. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So it sounds like you worked all over the Hanford site. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: All over the Hanford site, that's right, yes, everywhere. And I worked a lot of the times at the burial grounds in 200 West Area. When they would take the big wooden boxes to PUREX and REDOX and they'd fill them. And then they'd pull them up, and they'd put a big long cable on the whole string of cars, and that box was way down that string of cars. And then when they get up to the burial ground, the train and it would coordinate, and they'd pull it back. And as the cable would come around, and when the box got to the trench, the train would stop. And they'd just spin it around and down in a trench. And then we get the honor of riding the bulldozers to set those freights so they could cover them up. That was one of the deals. And the other times I worked in a lot of the tank farms and pulling pumps and putting new bearings in those pumps and all that kind of stuff. It was an experience, believe me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Yeah, I'm sure it was. So a lot of this was with radiation monitoring? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: It was radiation monitoring. And I was in radiation monitoring until 1980-something. And I had a little problem out there, and they wanted me to release some stuff. And I said, uh-uh, not me, it ain't mine. So they said, well we've got this other section over here that you should be in, so I got into the safety part with respiratory protection. And I was trained to repair the breathing air things, like the firemen use. I was trained to do that, fix the PAPRs, and the escape packs, and all that stuff so. And check over places for where they—oxygen levels to where they could go in and work and all that, so that was my last eight years of Hanford, was in the respiratory section I'll call it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And so when did you retire then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: In 1994. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So almost 40 years minus the years that you were with-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, yeah. Well as the way I said, when I came back to Hanford in 1960, they told me it was a temporary job, it would probably only last six, eight months. Well, I found out that at Hanford a temporary job is pretty permanent. It only lasted 33 and 1/2 years. It's a temporary job there, so I guess at all turned out pretty good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: I guess you could consider that temporary. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Temporary, yeah. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So many interesting things that you've worked on. So let's go back to the early years. First, in the 1950s and you talked about radiation monitoring, something with radiation, you did blueprint and stuff, but then radiation monitoring? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: And then radiation monitoring, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay, and some of that was with animals? Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, I went into the animal farm on some certain times, but I wasn't assigned there for anything. The big one I was assigned to was what they called the 558 project, which is when they re-tubed all of the old reactors. And that was, you'd go in and set dose rates for all the people when they're working. And so it was a deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And now Hanford, of course, is a highly secure site, right, lots of security, secrecy to a certain extent. Can you talk about that at all? I mean, in terms of getting to work or at work, how did that impact you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Most of the places where I was, the secure part of it wasn't that strict. But other places like, some of those buildings, yeah, they were really a strict situation. And when I go back a ways, when my dad and we lived in this—I call it the slum house on Totten Street--nobody knew what was happening. Nobody knew. I didn't know what the guy next door was doing, and they didn't know what my dad did. Until I think it was 1944 or '45 when they announced what they were really doing here. And it was kind of a shock, that deal, so. That was my deals of the secrecy out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Now, did you have to have special security clearance? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yes, yes, I did. I had special clearances, yes. I had everything but the very top secret one. And that was real handy because when I left here, I went to the Nevada test site. I had to use the same secret pass. And then the same thing when I come back. It was very, very--what am I trying to say here? I mean, I'm an old guy. I'm just about at the end of the road here. Most of my work, like I say, was the tank farms, and those places, where secrecy was not involved in that. And it was like times when you'd have a spill, you dig it up and prepare it to the burial ground. A lot of that was the work that we did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And you said your first job was at General Electric. Obviously, there are different contractors. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Now, who all did you work for over the years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, we went to General Electric. Then it went to there was one called Isochem, Rockwell, oh there's a whole slug of them, I can't remember all of them. So it seemed like every time you'd turn around, they were turned over to somebody new. But it was Westinghouse when I decided I would better leave before I had a real problem. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So can you talk about what was happening there toward the end that made you want to leave? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, I was, like I say, I was working on the PAPRs and all that kind of stuff. It got to be a real drag, you know. And everybody was doing that then. It got to the point where every time you turned around, everybody was wanting this, and wanting this, and wanting this. You're only one person. And I was a guy that did most all the fixing. So I decided--to my wife, I said--I call her the voice from the other side. She said, what's the matter? And I says, well, before I mess up on one of these pieces of equipment and kill somebody, I think I better retire. So we just decided, okay. And she worked for the Hanford Project, too. And of course she was much better off than I was. She worked for one of the big managers as a secretary. So we just decided that was it. And we had our nest eggs saved up and said, okay, it's retired and we're going to see the world. And we did that until my one eye decides to go bad. Then we had to stop. Other than that, I'd probably been in who knows where. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: While you were working at Hanford were there any significant events, or sort of, things that have happened that sort of stand out in your mind specifically? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, and I was trying to think. It was about 1962, graveyard shift, 233-S, it caught on fire and it burned. And it was a big mess. That's where I wound up with my shot of plutonium in my bones, as I'll say, from that fire. And, of course, back in those days you didn't know what was what, so they worked on it and cleaned it up. And but there's a couple of contamination things that sticks out in my mind. One of them is, we used to bury the material from 300 Area which is, I guess you would call a Westinghouse, Battelle or somebody. And we used to dump them into caissons in the backside of the 234-5 Area. And we had one of those that kind of broke open and messed us up a little bit. Took us maybe six, eight, hours to get cleaned up so we were able to go on our merry way. But those are the only two that really stick out in my mind. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Did you miss any amount of work as a result the exposures when you had those? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Nope. Nope. They just cleaned you up and said go back to work. You all have to remember that back in those days, all of the things that happened in a lot of places, we didn't know. We didn't know what the repercussions was going to be. We didn't know that. Now, this is why we're paying for a lot of stuff right now is because we didn't know how to do all that stuff. But like I say, there's a lot more people that know a lot more about that Hanford stuff than I do. Like I said, it's been many a year since I worked some of those places, too, that I can't remember some of the stuff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Sure, sure. The radiation monitoring group, how large of a group was that? And how many employees do you know, have an idea who worked-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: There was probably about 60 or better. But each company, I think, had a group of their own. The 200 Areas had one big group. The 100 Areas had a group. And then 300 Area had a group, so you put them all together there was probably more than 60-some. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Okay, and just to—you said there was a fire in, you think about, 1962. Was it the 200 Area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yep, in the 200, down behind the REDOX Building. That just, poof, was it and it went, so. And I think the reason they had the fire was because somebody had some greasy coveralls and stuff and didn't take care of them the proper way, and the first thing you know, poof, they were on fire. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And this was where there was radioactive material? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, it was back in the radioactive area, so everything got messed up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And at the time you probably didn't know necessarily everything, but you've had some health problems since then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I won't say that my health problem is caused by the contamination that I had or was dumped with. I've had quite a few of those. I've had a melanoma cancer in this ear, and I had a very large contamination that got in that ear and area. So I've had to have some surgery done there, skin grafts and that kind of stuff. But so far it hasn't slowed me up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. Were you working here in 1963 then when President Kennedy came to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And do you remember at all? Were you there that day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No. Well, I was on a project that day, but I was not out where he was. I was one of the, I guess how would I say this, the lower steel, so I took care of the work over while everybody went to that. But yeah, I was here. I came back from Nevada on September 13, 1960, and I worked till '94. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And then I wanted to ask you a little about Richland. So other than when you first got here, it sounds like you lived in Richland most of the time? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: How would you describe Richland as a community at the time, as a place to live? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: It was very good because at that time, when you were there, you didn't even have to worry about locking doors. I mean, everybody was—it just one big thing. It was a government town and everything would deal like that. And nobody really did—didn't have the vandalism or anything like that around town. And as you probably know that, if you're familiar with Fred Meyer’s on Wellsian Way down there, that was a swamp deal, because that was where Richland got their drinking water. Like I said, I lived in 1303 Totten the very first time and then we moved from there down to on Benham Street. And I don't know how to say this, other than the way I normally say that, but that was down where we called the turd churn. That was the sewage plant down there. Then from there I moved back up to Swift. And then in--I was trying to think when it was, 1963 or so, they did away with the old irrigation ditch that came through Richland and goes underneath Carmichael, because that's where they flooded the cattail place down there for the drinking water in Richland, and let it seep down and pump it up. And they busted everything up and back about then I was reading the Villager, I think it was, the Tri-City paper, and there was a lot for sale on Totten Street. So I bought it and went out and looked at it. It was the old irrigation ditch. And I built a house over the old irrigation ditch, and I still live there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And you—when you first arrived you were a child. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: What was it like going to school? I'm assuming that there were people from sort of all over, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: All over. Yeah. And you just walk to school. And it was, like I say, there was no buses or anything, you could walk to school. And everybody just seemed to fit right in, you know. Nobody had any qualms whether I was from Arkansas or anywhere else. But like I say when the first house there in Richland, Wright Avenue was the last street in town. And beyond that was one of the most fabulous cherry orchards that there was. And when you were a kid you'd slip over in the cherry orchard and get cherries and take them home to your mother. And she could make you some jams, jellies, or whatever pie, or whatever. But it was a deal. There was quite a group of kids that came from all over the country. And they just seemed to fit in, none of this gang thing or anything like that. They were just, everybody was all buddy-buddy, you know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: You mentioned you went to, what was then Columbia High School. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: How about elementary and middle school? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: And in elementary school when we moved the one that I really remember was Lewis and Clark down on the south end of town. And I went there until one of the, I'll call them students decided to burn it down. And they burnt Lewis and Clark down. And so a lot of us were told to go up to Marcus Whitman and finish off the year up there. So we did that. And then them from there on Carmichael, the junior high, was being built and I think they opened it up at about a mid-year. And I was one of the ones I went there the mid-year into Carmichael and then over to the high school after that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And so what year was that the Lewis and Clark burned down? Was that like in the late '40s then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah. But the funny part of it is, not too many years ago they arrested a fellow down in Portland. And he was laughing about burning the building down. So I guess they couldn't do anything to him, but they found out who burned it down now. Yeah. Well, there was Lewis and Clark, Marcus Whitman, Sacajawea which was right there by Central United Protestant Church was the old Sacajawea school. And then there's Jefferson which is still going. And our fabulous people are trying to shut it down, move it, and do something else with it. But who knows what's going to happen. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Do you remember when you were growing up and going to school and living here at that time any community events, parades? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Oh, yeah! Atomic Frontier Days was a big—the big, big thing. I have breakfast with a group of Columbia High graduates and I can't remember what her name is, but she was one of them that used to run for the Queen of Frontier Days. And there was a couple others. But that was the big thing. And they used to take—Howard Amon Park turned into booths, and just like a big fair down there. So it was things, and then all a sudden they decided to move everything around to the Tri-Cities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And was that in the summer? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, that was always in the summer, you know. And then the big hydroplane races, they would come in, but they were the old ones that had the 1,200 or 1,300 horse-powered gasoline engines in them, the noise makers. But that was about the extent of the things. And if we go back I can remember the floods came through and when they build all the dikes that they're tearing down now. But I don't think they got to worry about that, being as the dams are still functioning. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Do you remember some of the floods? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Oh yeah, I can remember the flood deals, when they built the road up to going to the Y. They had to build all that up because you didn't get to Kennewick when the flood was on. Well, it was right up to the George Washington Way road there by wherever the guy that has the petrified stumps down there. The water was just across the street from his house, was right up to the edge there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: So I want to go back now to Hanford itself and your work experiences there. You talked about some specific things you did and some specific things. How would you describe Hanford as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Hanford was a real good place to work. It was really good work, and good place to work. Mainly I think because you didn't know everything that was going on. So you knew that you had your section, what you were doing, and you didn't want to make waves or something like that. But to me, Hanford was a good place to work. There was a lot of--I had a lot of good friends that came up through the, I call them the ranks. They were, like I worked in the blueprint and there was guys that drove the mail trucks. We wound up as a real knit group of people there. They work out of the old 703 Building, which part of it's still there. And we used to have Coke breaks and go back there. And everybody put a quarter in the pot and then get your Coke bottle. When it was all through whoever had the bottle that was from farthest away got the kitty. So it was a good place to work, really. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And I guess is there anything you would like future generations to know about working at Hanford site? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well, I would like everybody to know that where this country really screwed up was when we dropped that bomb and blew up everything. We kept everything too secret. They should have let everybody know what that was and what was happening. Today we would have had a better deal of doing what they're doing today if they'd done that, I think. Now that's my opinion and no one else's, but if they would have just let them know what was going on, and what happened, it would have been a lot better. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And then is there anything that I haven't asked you about in terms of either your job at Hanford—or jobs, I should say, at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: Or living in Richland? That I haven't asked you about, that you'd like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: No. Like I say, Richland was a good place to live, though, and Hanford was a good place to work. I mean you did your job, and everybody else did theirs, and everything worked out just fine. There's a lot of things that I'm not too sure of what happened. But a lot of those places they did have things when they were doing experiments for the Navy and all kind of stuff out there. But I didn't get in on any of that stuff at all. It was one of those deals, you go in and you dress out, and most the time the monitors were the first ones and the last ones out. So that was the deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: When you did that, did you wear a badge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, TLD, thermoluminescent dosimeter. So you always had a badge on. I understand that some of the guys used to take theirs and set them aside so they wouldn't get too much radiation, so they would be eligible for overtime. But I wasn't into that overtime route. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And so how would you know? How did it register that you had too much exposure? How was that read? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Well they put it into a meter that would read what the thermo was. And the original ones were--what am I trying to say? Film, there was a film. And they would read the film of what, how much had been exposed to that. And that's how they got your dose rates there, how much you took. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And did that change at some point to some other method? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, they used the film badges to start with. Then they flipped over and they found out they could use these, what did I call them, thermoluminescent detectors, which is you put at charge on them. And I guess the radiation would discharge the charge. So they'll know how much was used off of it. And then you had pencils that you read, that would tell you, that would read if you were supposed to take, let's say, 50 MR. Well you'd set that when you come out, you'd be there and there was always time keepers. There was a time keeper in that group that was taking how much your exposure was, and how long you had been there, and calculating it to when you should get yourself out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And they would let you know that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: And then they'd tap you on the shoulder and say, go. So then they’d go out. And then there would be somebody out there that would get them undressed and check them, clean them, and make sure they were all, no contamination on them and either send them to lunch or home. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: And that sort of procedure-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: That procedure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: --throughout the time-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Throughout the whole time I was there, yeah. Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: All right. Well thank you very much. I really appreciate your being willing to come in and talk to us. And very interesting-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: Yeah, like to say, there's things out there that my mind just doesn't pick up on them right now. So probably middle of the night at one o'clock, I'll wake up and say, golly, I should have told him this. But no, that's the deal. But really, Hanford was a good place to work and to me, it's been real good to me. I got a good retirement off of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: All right. Well, thank you very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: You bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Bauman: I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: You bet. And seeing now that he's got the shut off, I'll tell you about my week. I took my motor home and went to Ilwaco. You know where Ilwaco is on the Columbia River? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Man three: Yeah, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX100368582"> Moore: On the way over there. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:35:10 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) 703 Building 100 F Area 200 West Area 300 Area 234-5 Area 200 Area 100 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1953-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1953-1994 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Samuel Moore Description An account of the resource An interview with Samuel Moore conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-16: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/9/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region 100 Area 100 F Area 200 Area 200 West Area 234-5 Area 300 Area 703 Building Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5b83b94c68de50301b8e97b9e7e3f03f.jpg bc9fdbf398dab35f02e87bb819f53807 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa30711922620dbac020fc42a9e65de4f.mp4 240a25c48ff69ef6becf66f630e9f7b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandra Paine Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Tom Hungate: I’m ready. Robert Franklin: Ready? Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Sandra Paine on July 5, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Sandra about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Sandra Paine: Sandra Lee Paine. P-A-I-N-E. Sandra, S-A-N-D-R-A, Lee, L-E-E. Franklin: Great, thank you so much, Sandra. So tell me, how and why did you come to the area to work for the Hanford Site? Paine: Well, I was born and raised here, and I went out to CBC. When I was—after my three boys got into school age, and I knew they were going to be growing up and I’m going to be bored staying home. So I happened to go out and take a test and they sent me to school. Because I went out there and took the nuclear chemical operator classes. Franklin: Oh, really? Paine: Yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. 0:01:11 Paine: And when I graduated from that, I turned in my resume, and I was hired right away. Franklin: Wow, and what was it about nuclear chemical operating that made you want to join that field? Paine: Well, my ex-husband worked out at Hanford. And he was a nuclear chemical operator at that time. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you figured if he could do it, you could do it? Paine: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m sure it probably pays-- Paine: Oh, yeah. Franklin: Were you supporting your three children on your own then? Paine: No. No. Not then. Franklin: Oh, okay. You were remarried. Paine: I was married at the time. Franklin: Oh, okay. And when you say you were born and raised here, where were you born? Paine: I was born right here in Pasco on North 8th and Sylvester Street. Franklin: Oh, okay. Paine: Second house in, big old square white house, two-story house. My mom ran kind of a boarding room upstairs; she rented out the rooms upstairs. Franklin: Oh, really? How long did she do that for? 0:02:13 Paine: Oh, god, quite a few years, till I was married and gone. I was adopted into the family, so I was adopted when I was two years old. Franklin: Oh, okay. Paine: To Virgil Lamb and Lara Lamb. They adopted me. Franklin: Okay. And did your mother run the boarding house--do you know what years or-- Paine: Oh, from the time I was about--well, when I was adopted in, she was running a boarding house upstairs. Franklin: Oh, okay. So you turned in your resume to Hanford, and which contractor did you end up working for? Paine: CH2M Hill. Franklin: CH2M Hill, okay. So you said you were hired right away. So where did you go to work, right off the bat? Paine: PUREX. Franklin: PUREX. What did you do at PUREX? 0:03:14 Paine: Well, I worked on the line and didn’t like that. So I got a chance to do surveillance in the building, going around checking all the fire extinguishers and checking out places that most people didn’t normally get to go. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Such as? Paine: As the tunnels. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, okay. You mean the tunnels that were recently in the news? Paine: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: Oh, wow. Paine: They were there then. Franklin: Yeah, because they were built in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Paine: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could describe what that was like to go in that abandoned tunnel, or that place. Paine: Well, it really wasn’t abandoned then. There was stuff going on in there. Franklin: Oh, so people were putting material in there? Paine: Yeah. Franklin: And what did it—were there lights in there, or how much room did you have to move around in those tunnels? 0:04:14 Paine: Well, you wore a headlight and carried a flashlight and stuff. There were lights in some areas. Franklin: What kind of protective gear did you wear to go inside the tunnel? Paine: Usually a pair of white coveralls and that’s it. Franklin: And that was it? Paine: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. Paine: Back then, it wasn’t required to wear a mask or anything, till later. Franklin: Oh, okay. And what year did you start at PUREX? Paine: 1980. David Chambers: 1990. Paine: 1990, yeah, 1990. Franklin: 1990, okay. Great. So that sounds really, really interesting to kind of get to go around--so you said you kind of--sounds like you did some mundane things like check fire extinguishers, but you also--what other types of places did you get to go that other folks who worked out there may not have gotten into? 0:05:22 Paine: Well, I could go pretty much anywhere I wanted to. It depended on what kind of clearance you had, where you could go. Franklin: And what kind of clearance did you have? Paine: Well, I don’t know, it was, whatever was needed for the job. I can’t remember what they call them. Franklin: Sure, no, no, no, no problem. Paine: You get COPD, you get problems remembering. Franklin: Sure, no, I completely understand. How long did you do this kind of maintenance job out there? Paine: Well, I preferred doing that than working on the line, so I did surveillance all the time. Franklin: Okay. And then how many years did you do surveillance for? Paine: Oh. Chambers: Probably two or three, and then you went—you finally ended up at the Tank Farms. 0:06:21 Paine: Yeah, two or three and then went to Tank Farms. Franklin: Oh, okay. Paine: Worked on the drill rigs. Franklin: Worked on what? Paine: Drill rigs, which we took 19-inch core samples out of all the waste tanks out there. Franklin: Oh, wow. Can you describe how that was done? 0:06:37 Paine: Well, you had a big old truck that you backed up there that had a pipe going down, that just actually drilled down to the waste. But we sent a sampler down in there that it filled the sampler, and then we’d have to pull the sampler out and put it in a cask to be sent to the lab. Franklin: Okay. And so that was to test the different composition of the tanks? Paine: The type of waste that was in it, and that type of--yeah. How radioactive it was and how--because they put different layers of different waste in there. Franklin; Yes, yes, they did, yeah. What made you decide to go do that work? Paine: Well, I liked to be outside. I didn’t want to be closed up in a building. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I guess you would get plenty of outside. The tanks are all outside. Did--sorry, excuse me. Did you enjoy the Tank Farms work? Paine: Yeah, I liked working out there, yeah. Franklin: Yeah? Were there any challenges? Were there any tanks that were more challenging than others? 0:07:55 Paine: Oh, yeah, uh-huh. Yeah. Bringing up higher radioactive waste that you had to really be careful. Put lead blankets and stuff around to keep--so HPTs kept us on our toes while it was coming up. Franklin: Who did? Paine: HPTs. Franklin: What’s an HPT? Paine: Hazardous--monitors. People that monitored the waste, you know. The radioactivity. Chambers: That was a radiation monitor. Paine: Yeah, radiation monitors. Franklin: And what kind of protective gear did you wear when you were working out at the Tank Farms? 0:08:36 Paine: Well, depends on what type of job you were doing. Sometimes you were in one pair of whites, sometimes you were in two pairs of whites. Sometimes you were in plastic lead-lined clothing on. Franklin: Mm. Did you feel that out at the Tank Farms that the protection was adequate for the job you were being asked to do? Paine: Yeah. [UNKNOWN] It doesn’t matter if you’re even outside the Tank Farms then you’re going to get the radiation, you know? Whether you--just because you don’t get contaminated, the radiation still is-- Chambers: Let me make a comment for you here. Dave Flinger[?] is the one that come up with a really good one on this. Some of the people from the DOE were talking and they were asking about--she said, they said well, those areas are fenced off. And they said, well, yeah, you mean those magical chain link fences stop the fumes from coming through? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Very true. Paine: Magical chain link fence. Franklin: Yeah. What other types of challenges did you find at the Tank Farms? 0:10:19 Paine: Well, I enjoyed my job, so I really took it one step at a time and figured--try to do the best that I could, whatever challenges, it was up to my ability. Franklin: Sure. And how long did you work out at the Tank Farms for? David Chambers: You were there probably—probably about 15 years. Paine: 18 years. Chambers: 18 years total, about. Paine: 18 years, yeah. Chambers: At Tank Farms for 15 of it. Franklin: Oh, okay. Chambers: And she also--she didn’t tell you, she was responsible for driving the emergency evacuation bus, so she had to take that out every now and then and drive that so if we had an emergency, she’d fill it up and get it out of the Area. Franklin: Was that when you worked at the Tank Farms, or at PUREX? Paine: PUREX and I did have Tank Farms. Franklin: Oh, okay. Was there ever a time when you had to drive the emergency evacuation bus for-- 0:11:07 Paine: Oh. No. We had to keep certified on it, so we had to go out and drive it. So we got to go drive around the Hanford Area, you know, where--we had to put so many hours in to keep your license up. Franklin: Sure, sure. But you never--there was never an emergency where you had to use the bus. Paine: No, no, never. Franklin: Well, that’s good. So, 18--so you retired--or you left the Tank Farms in 2008, then? Paine: Yeah, 2008-2009, yeah. Franklin: Wow, that’s quite a long time out there. Were there any major changes into the way that the work out there was approached when you started at the Tank Farms versus when you left? 0:12:02 Paine: Well, changes in amount of protection, clothing protection that you wore when they were beginning to get up on it a little bit. But I don’t know, I just enjoyed working out there, and didn’t really pay attention. [LAUGHTER] Chambers: The pay was good. Paine: Huh? Chambers: The pay was really good. Paine: Yeah, the pay was good. Not many women made 30 bucks an hour at that time. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: No, no, that’s very true. That’s very true. Was that one of the things that you enjoyed the most about working out there, was the compensation? 0:12:43 Paine: Well, no, I enjoyed the company and the people out there, you know, were really nice, and had a lot of good times, too. You know, that’s what—liking the people you work with and the thing you do helps you get up and go to the job every morning. Franklin: Yeah, it really does. It really does. Did you work with the same people day to day, usually? Paine: Pretty much. Franklin: You had kind of a crew that you knew well and depended on? Paine: Yeah, mm-hmm. Franklin: I’m wondering if there were any ways that security or secrecy at Hanford affected your work? 0:13:22 Paine: Well, I just never talked about what I did out there. I didn’t want to make a mistake and say something that I shouldn’t, so I just kept my mouth shut. You know? You never know. Might say something that somebody might want to find out more from you. Put you on a--[LAUGHTER] Franklin: Like some pushy history interviewer? Paine: No. [LAUGHTER] I don’t mind doing it to you now. Franklin: Oh, thank you. That’s great. So I guess as just a final question, the same reflective question I asked Dennis, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the--well, you didn’t work during the Cold War, but I wonder, how about working at Hanford, dealing with the legacy of the Cold War? Paine: Yeah, well, it’s a must, that must be done. And the future’s going to depend on it. Franklin: How so? 0:14:25 Paine: Because we have to keep up with the world, what the world’s doing. They’re developing nuclear stuff and we need more power plants and electricity’s getting higher and higher. You know? Franklin: I’m wondering, do you feel that we can manage the risks, the waste-- Paine: Yes. Franklin: --responsibly and effectively? Paine: I think we can, yes. Franklin: Yeah? Paine: Yeah. We need more places like Yucca Mountain. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Great. Yeah, because it’s not really doing too hot in the tanks, is it? Paine: Mm-mm. Franklin: Great. Well, Sandra, thank you so much for coming and talking with us today. It was really interesting to hear about your experiences. Paine: Well, I hope some of my information helps. Franklin: Yeah, no, it’s really great to hear about, you know, not only the work, but women doing this kind of work out in the workforce and being a real important part of--and showing that women are capable any job. Paine: Well, thank you, we had quite a few women on my crew of my graduating class that went to work out there. We worked, a lot of times, together. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Paine: So there were quite a few. Chambers: Sandra’s got quite bad COPD, too. She started her performance evaluation on June the 10th. And they’ll send her over to a little room to get on a bicycle, too. But the bicycle, evidently, from what I understand is broken. Maybe it’s fixed now. So, she’s waiting for the call to go over there and do that, you know. And then of course, she’s been on hers for four years now, too, to try to get everything resolved. Franklin: Wow. Well, I hope you get a quick resolution and just compensation. Paine: Thank you. Franklin: Okay, well. Thanks to both of you. I really appreciate it. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:16:19 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 9980 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview CH2M Hill PUREX Tank Farms Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site Since birth Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sandra Paine Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Sandra Paine talks about her time working in the Tank Farms as a Nuclear Chemical Operator. She reflects on the changes that have happened and the pleasant memories while working at the Hanford site. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/05/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. ch2m hill Hanford nuclear chemical operator PUREX Tank Farms Woman Women https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8fd2a955bab5ca49f4c116afc3f3dcde.JPG babb31b987d1e2e7508918ac0c28f0f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sharon Kent Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Robert Franklin: Okay, let’s go. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Sharon Kent on July 26, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Sharon Kent about her experiences growing up in Richland. So, I—the best place to start is at the beginning. So when and where were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Sharon Kent: When was I born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In 1941. I was born in Salt Lake City. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But we were one of the first people that moved into Richland. In fact, we lived in Moses Lake and Sunnyside until the prefabs were built. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. So coming to Richland at that young of an age, you had to have had family that worked at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: My father worked here, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Then what did he do at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I think he was a policeman at that time, but I’m not sure. I know he was a policeman, and when he retired he was a safety engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So he had several different jobs then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: When did he retire? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, he died in 2000. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. He lived for quite a long time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. And probably 1980 would be my guess, but I really—I don’t know. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay, well— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Whatever 65 was, he retired. And he was born in 1913. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. ’76. So needless to say, he spent most of his career out—he had a long career at Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay, wow. That’s really—and did he have any other jobs besides policeman and safety engineer? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, you mean a side job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Any other job, any other careers out there or jobs out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: At Hanford, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: No? Okay. Do you know how your father found out about—what was he doing before he came here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He was at a plant in Utah and a lot of people came from it. I can’t remember the name, but a lot of people came from that particular plant. I don’t know if they went there. I guess they went there and told people about it and a lot of them came here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you know what kind of plant it was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, I don’t. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Did your father talk much about his work as a policeman? Maybe not during the time, but after, did he talk about where he patrolled or anything interesting he saw, or--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. Not that I can remember. We just talked about—what I remember, one time he said—this is probably too far—but somebody asked him if he knew what they were doing here. And he gave this answer and he says, sir, don’t say that to anybody. [LAUGHTER] So he’d figured out pretty close what they were doing. But I—you know—I don’t know. We just—I was young enough that—in fact, my first memory is the day that Japan surrendered in the Second World War. I can remember we were lived in a prefab, and the sirens were going. They had sirens at noon and different sirens. And my mother and all the people were outside yelling. I can remember my mother says, our brothers are coming home, our brothers are coming home! And that’s my first memory. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So I don’t remember any of the problems people had during the war with lack of this and that. Just the prosperous time. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. What size of prefab did you live in? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We lived in a three-bedroom, and because we lived in a three-bedroom, at one point they had a gentleman living with us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I don’t remember that. But right at the very end, before we moved—just before we moved, Mother had the third baby. And we didn’t have anybody living with us. And I remember—it must have been a peach orchard, because I remember peach trees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. That makes sense, because most of the prefabs were on the western side of Richland at that time which had been orchards. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And I’ve heard stories from other people about all of the fruit orchards that were there in that side of town. So where did your family move to after the prefab? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We moved to 321 Goethals, which is now 321 Jadwin. And that was an H house. And that’s pretty close to—[LAUGHTER]—I forgot the school. Lewis and Clark. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And we were real close to—there was a market there and a gas station. I remember—we didn’t have freezers in our home then. So there was just one house between us and the market, so we would rent a space in the freezer and go get it. I remember going in there once and pushing the alarm button. [LAUGHTER] Oh, kids! I thought, oh, boy. I was a pretty good kid, but I—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did you know it was an alarm button? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, I did. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, a troublemaker. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not usually. [LAUGHTER] Not usually. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How long did your family live in the H house for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, the family—I got married in 1959—the end of ’59, and they were still there. They moved out of the H house when—let’s see. Sterling was three years old, and he was born in 1966. So ’69. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. So then your family purchased the H house after Richland— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, they did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: After Richland became a [INAUDIBLE]? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: They did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you know offhand how much they would have paid for that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: What comes in my mind was $7,000. My husband-to-be lived around the corner and up a ways, and his two-bedroom prefab, I believe, was between $2,000 and $3,000. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. So you grew up next to—how did you meet your husband-to-be? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, he lived, like I say, close by, but where we actually met was at church. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: There was a group of people that—young people that would get together, because there were soldiers here. And then there were people like my husband that had been in the Korean War and had their education and they still weren’t married. So there were a lot more men than there were women. So one summer when a lot of the girls left, they went down to a younger age girls that were part of this group. My husband happened to be the oldest, and I happened to be the youngest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How much older was your husband? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: 13 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, that’s what my mother said. [LAUGHTER] But she didn’t know how old he was until—at the reception. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. What age were you when you met him? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Met him? I was 15 or 16. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How long after that did you get married? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I got married at 18. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Interesting. And then did you settle in Richland after that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. My husband was working—I don’t remember—GE. Then it was GE. And we got married in December, and in September we left. My husband got a full fellowship for Berkeley in health physics. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So we went there and then when we came back, we came back and came back here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: When would you have left? Do you remember what year that would have been? When you left to go—sorry—when you left to go to Berkeley? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: 1960. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So then Richland had passed into private. So tell me—I imagine that leaving—because you—so you were born in Salt Lake City, but really your formative years were in Richland. I imagine moving to Berkeley would have probably been quite a culture shock. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, it was very different, that was for sure. My in-laws lived close by and my brother-in-law worked at Berkeley as a paleontologist. So we saw them often, and that helped a great deal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How so? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Just knowing family was close by. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I didn’t feel like I’d just been let off. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Can you describe some of the ways in which Berkeley was different from—or some of the kind of maybe new experiences or differences that you encountered at Berkeley? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, the buildings were a whole lot older. And we lived in a very old two-story house, and we had the basement apartment. I remember we went to Goodwill or something like that and got one of those wringer washing machines and hung the sheets out. But my husband knew his way around and this type of thing. So it was a much bigger city—much bigger area. When we settle in a place, we go and take advantage of it. So we saw a lot and did a lot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So your husband was from the area, then, originally? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. He was born in San Francisco. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. And how did he get to Richland originally? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t know; when he graduated from Berkeley with a physics degree, he somehow got to Richland. I don’t— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, I guess GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And he’d been in the Korean War before that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He was in the Korean War, and he did that so his education was paid for. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He knew that—you know, that was the way to get an education. His brother was already in the Korean War, so he didn’t have to join, because there were just the two boys. And if one’s in the war, the second one doesn’t—you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Doesn’t get drafted. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But he wanted to get an education, and this was the way to get it. And he said it worked for him. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin; Do you know what he did when he was in the Korean War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. He repaired Sabrejets—the radar equipment in Sabrejets. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So he was about 55 miles from the line. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. Backing up a bit, what did your—did your mother have a job at Hanford or working during the war or after the war? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. When I was a teenager, they called and begged her, begged her and begged her. She says, I don’t want to go to work. I have children. And to work in one of the libraries. So she went to work and it turned out she enjoyed it. And I remember there was a graduate school—somehow there was schooling there. It wasn’t a campus like this, but she worked in that library. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I remember I could go with her sometimes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And how long did she work there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t know. I know then she went out in the Area and then she worked in the Richland City Library. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What do you mean, out in the Area? You said then she went out in the Area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: She worked for Battelle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, she worked for Battelle, okay. Out onsite. Or at the--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: That’s what I thought. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I’m not—I could make mistakes, but— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, no, that’s totally understandable. And then you said she worked for Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Richland City Library, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So how long did you and your husband live in Berkeley for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: One year. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Just one year? Okay. Then what happened after? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Then we came—oh. He decided—he got his degree in physics, and he got his fellowship in health physics, and that wasn’t the right field. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So he came back in physics, and then as soon as computers came to the Federal Building, he went into computers. And that was definitely his thing. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Then he worked with computers for the rest of his career? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. So those would have been the days of punch cards and the—yeah. What did—you said he worked with computers; do you know a little more about what he did in the Federal Building with the computers? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. All I know is—well, I remember my daughter, my youngest daughter was old enough to remember the incident. They let us go down, and it was in the basement of the Federal Building. We couldn’t go into the room, but they had these white coverall things on, and it was temperature-controlled and everything. And she was old enough to remember. That was the first computer I saw. That was my youngest child, so—[LAUGHTER] And then it wasn’t too much longer before we had a computer in our home. And my husband said, this runs circles around what was in the Federal Building. But at the time, the Federal Building, it was phenomenal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. So was it a large mainframe? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Rooms and rooms—yeah. Room after room after— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. Do you have any siblings? I forgot to ask. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I do. I have two sisters and three brothers. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Older, younger—or where are you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I’m the oldest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You’re the oldest, okay. So were they all born in Washington? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, my sister that’s younger than me, she was also born in Salt Lake City. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. And the others were born in Washington? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right, Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay, and what’s the age difference between you and your youngest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Youngest? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: 19 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh my. That’s a good span. And how many children did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I have five. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Five children as well. And you said your son was born in 1966? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: ’60. Oh—the third son—or the fourth son was ’66. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The oldest was 1960. And then I had four sons and then in 1972, we had our daughter, and she was born on the first day of school that my youngest went to first grade. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] So I’ve never had much alone time until the last ten years, after my husband died. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Finally some peace and quiet in the house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. I’m surprised that you haven’t asked me about what life was like when I was a child. I had some interesting— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I was getting there, but please, take over. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: No, no, no, go ahead. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, what I remember was before the houses were owned, there were no fences. So there were no big dogs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You just—you didn’t own your yard, so you just walked through and everybody—you know. We just walked through the middle to go to the grocery store and whatnot. And I liked it that way. I didn’t have any problems with the neighbors. Some other people did but, I, myself, didn’t. It was just so different once they bought the houses and built these fences. Of course, then, that’s when the big dogs come in. Before, they weren’t—you know. There weren’t the big dogs—I don’t remember—where I lived. There were cats and we had a dachshund that we kept in the yard—you couldn’t just let them run. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, so I guess they would have been indoor pets a lot of the time. Because without the fences they could just run off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, to me, it just made such a huge difference once those fences went up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, I bet. Well— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was just a whole different feeling. It wasn’t near as warm and friendly. Whereas—and then there were a lot fewer people then, too. You know, you felt like you knew everybody. In fact, I think it was only about 20 years ago before I went anywhere that I didn’t see somebody that I knew. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] And then all of the sudden I go places all the time that I don’t know somebody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, right. What about—I guess it’s interesting to hear you say that, with this lack of fence—because we, nowadays, we associate fences and things like that, with the feeling of security and privacy. But you’re saying, at least for you as a child, it was much more of an open, friendly feeling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, that’s what it was to me, but like I—you know. Nobody teased me. I had a brother that got teased something fierce, but nobody bothered me. So it felt good to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: To just kind of be able to wander around. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And what did you do for fun, growing up, what kinds of activities did you do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, we went swimming. My dad enjoyed swimming and they had a pool down in Howard Amon Park. They had the little pool and then they had the big pool. If you went to the big pool, you had to be a certain age—I can’t remember—if you went without your parent, and you could only swim for one hour. But if you were with an adult, you could swim all the time. And there just happened to be a lady that lived across the street that liked to swim that didn’t have any children that liked to take us. So we didn’t have to stand in line, we just went in and swam as long as we could. I always loved the river, and swimming was something I did a lot of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Was the pool in the river, or close to the river--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Close to the river. You know where that little pool is now at Howard Amon Park? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was right close to there. And the tennis courts—my husband and I played on the tennis courts. I’m sure that they have renewed the surface, but it’s the same place as when my husband and I played. And he claims we played at 115, but I keep saying the weather man never says it got that hot. But it was plenty hot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I’m sure it felt like 115. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We—you know, there was no air conditioning. There were swamp coolers, but my mother had asthma, so we couldn’t have a swamp cooler. So I felt very put-upon until I got married and my husband had a wall air conditioner. I just thought I was in the Ritz. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But we had an interesting—we were in Lewis and Clark, and supposedly there were a canoe out there that was decayed. And supposedly, it was from Lewis and Clark, I think. My brother’s wondering if it wasn’t from the Wanapum Indians. But the other thing, we had a principal named Lee Carlson. And he went around traveling around the United States. He was a rock hound, and he got these big, big blocks of the state rock. And on George Washington Way—oh, just north of Lee, on the east side, I—oh, yeah, it was a theater, the Liberty Theater. And anyway, they built this water fountain and had each one of these rocks from the state. And I’ve often wondered what happened to that, because it was very nice. I hope they put it somewhere, but if they have, I haven’t heard about it. Also, it wasn’t—then in those days, not very many people traveled that widely, so it was very interesting to—you know. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. Well, especially, I imagine, growing up in Richland, until ’58, the only people that could live in Richland were people—employees of Hanford. So I imagine that, as you were saying earlier, always knowing everybody, I imagine that would be exceptionally true in Richland where everyone you knew worked at Hanford, or was a family of someone who worked at Hanford. So the community had kind of a close knit feeling? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It did to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What else about your childhood strikes you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I was in high school when the houses sold. And other than the Globetrotters—anyway, I had hardly seen black people, other than when they came in town. They did a thing at Columbia High School that’s now Richland High School. And then the houses sold and four black families—maybe more than that—moved in. But anyway, they were in high school and the two brothers were CW Brown and I can’t remember his brother—Norris. And he was married to one of the girls. And the other brother, Norris, was engaged to other. They were really good at basketball and we got number one at state in basketball that year. There were other great men, too, but I don’t think anybody contested the fact that they were a big thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Big part of it. And I never saw any—I was raised without prejudice because I didn’t see it, if you know what I mean. And another interesting story is I went to high school with Sharon Tate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the incident I remember is I was in the bathroom, and there was a lady—well, a girl I guess, and anyway Sharon Tate was there by the sink. This big black girl asked her if she would help her, and she says, very graciously, said yes. I mean, you just didn’t see any prejudice. And that was my—so when I hear about this other stuff—in fact, people would come to our high school. This one girl just came from the South and was talking about all these murders and this kind of thing. I just hadn’t seen it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You mean during the Civil Rights era? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right, right. Like I say, I saw no prejudice whatsoever. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: It’s very interesting you mention Sharon Tate, because I used to ask that question of people who grew up here, and I’d never met anybody yet who had actually met her. So did you know her well, or did you— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. I knew she was in high school. I never had a class with her. That’s the only—that was the closest. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But she was very gracious. And everybody knew she was gonna be a movie star. She made no ifs ands or buts about that. And then she was Miss Richland, which was one of the last Miss Richlands. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, then, yeah, she moved away. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: She moved to Germany just a few weeks later. She knew when she became Miss Richland that she was gonna do that, but— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. And then of course you obviously remember the tragic event that happened to her. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In fact, I think I lived in California at the time. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I think I lived in Los Angeles County when it happened. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. Did you have any other friends that knew her or had grown close to her, kept in touch with her? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not that I’m aware of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. That’s just interesting to have finally met somebody who actually had some sort of experience with her. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But I—what it was, was I was just really overwhelmed at her beauty and how gracious she was and patient. You know? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s great. Do you remember—well, I guess you would have been gone for the Civil Rights activity in Kennewick. There were marches— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: What year was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: ’64, ’65. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We were back. Oh, no, we left again in ’65 and ’66. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But I don’t remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: So I’m sure you’re—did you ever go much to the other two cities, Kennewick and Pasco, for any shopping or social events, or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I know we did, but I can’t—and I remember when we passed East Pasco, you knew where the blacks live. There was one very lovely house that was a black man’s house. The other thing is, the whole time I was growing up, if I ever saw a Hispanic person, they were in the field, working. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did any of them live in Richland to your recollection? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: If they did, I wasn’t—like I say, the only time I saw them was when we drove to Sunnyside and they were working in the fields, the whole time I grew up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And my daughter worked at Wiley School in Pasco, first grade, and the Hispanics live where the black community was now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So that has definitely changed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, Pasco is heavily Hispanic now. What can you tell me about civil defense growing up? Because you would have went to school and gone to school at the real high point of the Cold War-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Duck-and-roll? [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, exactly. What can you tell me about what you remember about that and how it made you feel? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I can remember my father was in safety. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He also, on side jobs, he went around teaching first grade and things like that. So we were really into that kind of thing, and we were very safe. But I remember the duck-and-roll, and I remember the—oh, is it Jason Lee that was built, and it was a bomb shelter and whatnot? I don’t think Lewis and Clark was built that way. Jason Lee was built later. You know, we were told what to do. Exactly what it was, I don’t remember. But I knew that we knew we were vulnerable and we also grew up with the feeling that as soon as the war was over, the town would be taken apart. Which, obviously it wasn’t. And I think—I don’t know, but I have a feeling the Cold War really kept us in there a lot longer. Now we—[LAUGHTER] I remember hearing about it and learning about it. The other thing I remember was when I was young, Dr. Corrado came to the house and I had scarlet fever. He gave me one of the first shots of penicillin that they were giving the public. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was a thick green goo. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: When was this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I was five, so it was ’46. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. That is very early. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, yeah. So Dr. Corrado at that point—well, these were—they worked for Hanford and it was very different. Different size and whatnot. And that was—big quarantine sign. It was by Christmas and, like I said, the grocery store was right there; it was Campbell’s then. And my father—our heritage is mainly Swedish—and my dad had invited all these people for lutefisk. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That Swedish delicacy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. And they put this quarantine sign up on our door. And this fish came in to the market and they call up, Mrs. Roos, you’ve got to come and get this fish. It stinks up the whole store! [LAUGHTER] So that’s one of my fun memories. I mean, it wasn’t fun for her, but— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did you ever develop a taste for lutefisk? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well as a—a few years ago, when I was widowed—you know, they have the lutefisk festival every February or March at the Lutheran church, and I have a friend that is Finnish. So I called her up and I said, let’s go. And she said [GRUMBLING] but she went with me. Well, we had no idea where to go in this church, and we just laughed and said, well, we’ll just follow the smell. And by gum, there was no smell. They do it differently now. And it tastes like cod. I guess it is a cod, prepared. So we go almost every year now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But we figured if anybody knew how to prepare it, it would be the Sons of Norway. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. Yup. [LAUGHTER] That makes sense. Anything else about growing up that you’d like to—that comes to mind? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I remember when the fireworks down at—just below the high school on whatnot, that’s where we saw the fireworks. Then they had a baseball field down there at one time. But this was—I think I was an adult then. They had a team called the Triplets, which is similar to the Dust Devils. And I remember they gave out jackets and I still have my Triplets jacket. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the circus came to Sunnyside—the great big one—and we went there. Well, the other thing is, one of the first things that happened was the Richland Players. And Mother said, there was this man that was there on business and he had nothing to do that night but go to—so he went to the Richland Players. And he stayed over the next day to go and tell people how extremely impressed and surprised on how good they were. The community concerts came. Anything like that that came—they brought things in like that. I remember Ronald Reagan came. He worked for GE. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right, doing the promotional films, right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, I remember going when he was here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Were you living here when President Kennedy visited to dedicate the N Reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That was in November of 1963. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, I was, in fact— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: September, I think. Sorry. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In fact, my brother was a Boy Scout. And he was right there and he got to shake his hand twice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, really? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did you go to the dedication? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t remember that I did. I think I had a brand new baby or something. [LAUGHTER] But about—when we had a brand new baby in the ‘60s, we were going through one of those trees that you could drive through as President Kennedy was giving the oath of office. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, in— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: In California. In California. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The redwoods on the highway, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I remember that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you remember President Nixon’s visit in the late ‘60s, early ‘70s? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, I can’t say that I do. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s okay. I haven’t met anybody who has yet. I’ve seen pictures of him at Hanford, but I don’t think it was as widely touted as President Kennedy’s visit. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: He seems to have a little less mystique. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How was it, raising—I imagine that—I guess I’d like to ask you to reflect on maybe how the experience of raising children in Richland, and maybe how their experiences would have been different from your experiences growing up in Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, that’s interesting. Well, we had fences. [LAUGHTER] And more multicultural. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: How so? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, anybody of any race could move in. There were very few Asians and very few Hispanics. Hmm. That’s a good question, but—well, they still knew it was a nuclear situation. I don’t have a good answer to that, other than it was a nice place to live. We felt safe. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s interesting. It’s interesting, I guess, for many people who might be—who might ever see this or who aren’t as familiar with Hanford to hear in the same sentence that there’s all this nuclear material being produced here but that it was also a very safe community. Did you ever feel any greater existential fear from the Cold War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I didn’t. Well, not that I remember. I certainly didn’t when I was a child. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I think I was just so used to it, I don’t remember. But another thing I do remember about my kids and whatnot is when I grew up, everybody had the same furniture. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, because it was government furniture. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, and everything else. So when my kids grew up, we went to Bell Furniture. People had different furniture. And like I say, they had dogs and whatnot. More cars during—when I grew up, the men always went to work on buses. Everybody usually had a car, but they had one car. So as my kids that—a lot more people had two cars, and the bus system wasn’t near the thing that it was. Where I live now is right by where the bus barn is, and they just built that new facility and then they stopped using the buses. But I thought the buses were real nice, because you knew when your dad or your husband was coming home and this type of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. And probably a bit safer, too. Less cars on the road. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, and it—you know, a lot less—fewer of us had two cars when the husband had a way to work every day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. So then he wouldn’t need to drive—to take the car with him all the time. So how long did your husband work out onsite for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Until he retired. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. How long was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, he came in like ’56 or ’57. He was born in ’29. And he retired at 65. So—[LAUGHTER] what would that be? ’86? Or something like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Kind of right when things were—production was starting to drop off. It says here that you’d been in the same house for 48 years on Saint Street? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: On Saint Street, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And is that an Alphabet House, or is that a newer— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, it was—we’re the only family that lived there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And it was a Stanfield-Nelson house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And—no, it was—we were gonna build in that area, and I hadn’t picked a plan yet. But we were on our way to buy a lot around the corner. And I said, hey, look, this house. Let’s go see if we can walk through. And we walked through, and I says, well, that’s what I want, build it over there. And they said, why not here? And I said, well, you’ve already picked up the carpet and whatnot. I’ll probably have one new house—I’m gonna pick out everything. They said, it’s on hold. And it was—I’m real glad I did, because I have four little boys, and they had all these things done—you know, the people that built from scratch—running into all these problems. And the cabinets were in, they were beautiful. They built them right in there. And they were beautiful; they were walnut—I loved walnut. And they did—and outside, the patio, there was a hole there and I said, I can’t have that. So they custom-built a beautiful bench that we sat on top of—you know, where the window was for the dryer. And I’ve been there 48 years, and there isn’t another house in the world I’d rather live in. I wish everybody felt that way about their house. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I wish I felt that way about my house, honestly. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did any of your siblings ever go to work for Hanford— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: --end up staying in the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, my brother Richard is here now. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: He would be somebody—and I forgot to bring his number—that would be interested. He works out on the grounds and keeping track of radiation from the animals and this type of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh. Wow, interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t know—I think I can tell the story. This one man came to him and he said, there’s a building out there, and these people won’t let me go in and check on things. And he says, there’s some birds on top of this building. And he says, I had an idea that they have a lot of radiation, and they won’t let me in. So he and Richard went and said, we’re coming in. And the birds were full of radiation. By the time they decided what to do about it, they were in Argentina. [LAUGHTER] But he says, the saving grace is whatever kind of bird it was, it wasn’t the kind people ate for dinner. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. So— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: At least there’s that. It’ll have to work its way through another couple animals to get into the human food stream. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the other thing was when Rattlesnake Mountain—I have allergies. And when Rattlesnake Mountain burned, my allergies were the best they’d ever been. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Really? What is it that you’re allergic to? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I don’t really know. I’ve been here so long, I’ve just—but anyway, guess who was the one that had them helicopter to reseed it. My brother. [LAUGHTER] They came in with helicopters. I said, I don’t know about that. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Since you’ve—we’ve talked a bit about how the neighborhood changed from—or how kind of the town changed from—in ’58 when things were—when they privatized, and you said some African Americans came in, fences came up, and things. How was—what changes have you noticed in your house now, where you’ve been living for almost half a century— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, yes. We were one of the first houses in that area. And where Lynnwood Park is now—I don’t know if you’re familiar with that—but anyway, when they put the park in, it was in the paper, and I think on the news, there was this big oval spot that they couldn’t get grass to grow. And Mark says, well, I know what that is. That was clayed in for water for the horses. There were horses out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. Like someone’s ranch. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Only, what was interesting was the mobile home park was—this was my house, and this is where the horses are, and the mobile home park was up there. So anyway, he says, well, that’s what’s the matter with that. So, yeah, we were one of the first ones. So it’s really built up. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, yeah, I imagine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And my kids—we moved there just before Sacajawea was built. So they went to Jason Lee, I believe. One day—the two older ones went to school; the two younger ones didn’t go to school yet. And they horsed around, and I didn’t have a car that day. So I told them get out and walk, and it was quite a ways. But they had only walked a couple of blocks and the bus that was picking up the kids more north was passing by. And they said, they’re from our school! So the kids said, we only walked a couple of blocks. [LAUGHTER] But they weren’t late again. [LAUGHTER] And then after that, they went to Sacajawea and then Hanford. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. And when was Hanford built? Do you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I know they started—Mark was born in ’60, and he started junior high there. He was one of the first. I don’t think it was the first year, but it was pretty close. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Were you involved in any groups or social organizations when you were being a mother and raising children? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I was—one of the things—Robert Leduc was the superintendent of schools. And I was in a group called citizens for something-or-other. We met with Robert Leduc, I believe once a month. And I really enjoyed that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What did you do in this group? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We just discussed all kinds of things and gave our feelings. Only other person I can remember that was in it was Dr. Sara Gergel. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And who was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: She was a pediatrician. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. So I imagine this was school-related? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: This was all—this was Richland Schools. I can’t remember the exact title, but it was citizen—you know. And how they picked us, I don’t remember. I was also vice president of PTO at Sacajawea. We decided not to be PTA, so we were PTO. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, and why was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I can’t remember. I can’t remember. I know I was in a discussion, but I can’t remember. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What—is the O for organization? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Organization. For some reason, they didn’t want to join the PTA. Now I kind of laugh and wonder why, but we didn’t. I was in Girl Scouts, in fact there’s a house on Falley—George Washington Way and Falley—that was unused at that time. But it was owned by an uncle or something of—it was one of the old, original houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The pre-Manhattan Project? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Right. And anyway, we had Girl Scouts there. The building is still there and nobody—I don’t think it’s ever been occupied in all these years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh. And where—this was at--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It’s yellow. Fallow and George Washington Way. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And Fallow? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Fallon? I think. It’s right at the end of downtown Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Hmm. Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I’m pretty sure it’s yellow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. I’ll have to look out for that next time. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But—yeah—I know I enjoyed going to the things here and most things were free except—you know. They had a lot—GE had a lot of things for the people. I do remember the dust storms and the women didn’t like them. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Why is that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, they called them termination winds. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, the women would clean up, and those winds would just seep into the house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Would these even happen when you were an adult? How long did these dust storms continue for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Until all the irrigation started. The more the irrigation, the less of this. And one of my sons—Sterling—was talking to me. He says, the other day, you know, when I grew up here it was very little humidity. He said, now there’s a lot of humidity and he says, if you’re out driving at five or six in the morning, there’s all this water going up in the air from sprinklers and whatnot, and it’s a lot more humid. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: That’s a definite difference. But that hasn’t bothered me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. I imagine that—didn’t really think of that. Do you remember clearly when kind of the big irrigation projects were happening? Do you remember that—what kind of era that was, or decade? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not really. I remember going out and picking fruit from when I was a kid and when I had young kids. That’s what I remember. And asparagus and things like that. But I don’t ever remember it without all this. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, okay. Interesting. What can you tell me about the history of the Latter Day Saints in the area? Was that—were there any Mormon settlers in the area before the Manhattan Project, or was the main bulk kind of brought in during World War II? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, the main bulk was brought in, but—I don’t know if you know anything about Bickleton that’s out there. The Brinkerhoffs lived in Bickleton. And they came in, and he was the one that not too many years before he died and not all that long ago, he remembered as a child, there were bluebirds in Bickleton. So he did a project—oh, I don’t know how many years ago—20 or so, but not—where he made all these houses or had all these houses made, and now the bluebirds have come back to Bickleton. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You mean like birdhouses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. And where is Bickleton? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It’s not too far from here, but I’ll tell you—when we went there, I didn’t see any street signs or anything else. It’s just out, you know. My brother knew how to get there. I thought, well, I couldn’t drive there. There’s just—it’s farm and whatnot. He was saying, there’s a bluebird, there’s a bluebird, there’s a bluebird. But they were one of the families. But most everybody else came. And I can remember, we were in schools and whatnot and then in 1950, the steakhouse on Jadwin was built. At that time, we stayed a branch. And when the church was dedicated, we went in and we were divided into two wards—branches are usually quite small. Also, I was—the first baptism in that building was April of 1950, and I was baptized during that baptism. I know my mother didn’t want me baptized in December in that dirty, cold Yakima River, and I didn’t put up any fuss. [LAUGHTER] We’ve really grown since then, that’s for sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I imagine. Do you remember any—was there any sort of—did early LDS settlers or people who came come across any hostilities or were there any troubles between—any types of persecution or anything like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, if there was, I didn’t see it. But I’m one of those that—I don’t—if something happens, I just walk away and it’s gone. So I didn’t see any of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I don’t remember my folks talking about that at all. We get in and we do things with the community. We usually are quite an asset, and I think we were looked at that way. One of the things I remember as a kid that I loved, that I really miss now was the Atomic Days—they had Atomic Days. One of the things that—they had floats, I mean gorgeous floats. I know Mother and Dad would work on these floats for Toastmasters and Toastmistresses. I remember all that crepe paper and whatnot. I miss those kind of floats. It was fantastic. They really put a lot of effort in that. I can’t remember what else but Frontier Days, but there was all—and I don’t know exactly when Art—first it was Sidewalk Show, for this, that’s coming up this Friday. And it was on the sidewalk in downtown. And then it’s turned into this big thing. And then it was local artists, and I’d—oh, I know her, I know her. And even as an adult when I was taking a lot of painting classes, I knew a lot of the people that were showing down there. Now, I don’t. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Did your husband share a lot of what he worked on, or was there still a culture of secrecy that kind of persisted-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, no, he did not share what he worked on. But I do know that he was this kind that could be very isolated and very—so if there was something that people didn’t want to work on because it was tedious or they had worked on it for years and couldn’t solve it, they just handed it to him and gave him no deadline and he solved all the problems. That’s the only story I’ve heard. So he was very highly valued. Then his bosses, they honored him and this kind of thing—paid as somebody like that. And his bosses that were his age or a little younger, when they were retiring, says Roy, you’ve got to retire. This young guy does not have any respect for overpaid, old geezers. So he retired early—he retired at 65, where he would have gone to 70. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But they said, no, no. And it’s really a shame, because—you know. They lost a very valuable person. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. All that learned experience on the job. Is there anything that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to talk about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not that I can remember at this time. I’m sure as I walk out, it’ll fill my head, but—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Lightbulb going off? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But it was a very happy experience for me. It wasn’t—my parents, I could see that—well, the other difference was between—everybody here, on vacation, always went home to their parents, because the parents didn’t live here. Whereas with my kids, my folks lived here. My husband’s folks didn’t, but my folks did. And that was a big difference. So when we went, we went to his folks’, but we weren’t trying to equal our time to both families. So also then we took time to go and do other things. That was a big one, to have the grandparents and the aunts and uncles here which my kids had and have really enjoyed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, that larger extended family structure would have been missing—or if your aunt or uncle didn’t work for Hanford, right, they wouldn’t live in the area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, I have another funny story. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: My folks, when they moved from Jadwin which turned into Goethals, at—there’s Jadwin in the Uptown, and then Williams, and then south of Williams, it wasn’t Jadwin, it was Goethals. Why it was that way, I don’t know. But then they—several years ago, they changed it so it was Jadwin all the way down. But anyway, when they moved from Goethals, they moved to Hains, which is across the street from the dike. They had that wonderful walking path, and if you haven’t walked on it, it’s marvelous. I just love to walk there. Anyway, one year, all these walkers were complaining to the City of Richland about the skunks, the skunks, the skunks. So they went in and got rid of a lot of them, and all of the sudden, all the neighbors were just covered with mice. But nobody was talking about it. I can remember my mother was real sick, and the cat came and dropped a dead mouse on her chest. My little daughter, who is real little, came in squealing with a mouse. And then she flushed it down the toilet. The neighbors just didn’t say a word ‘til it had gone on for quite a while. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So that’s a funny story. I mean, it wasn’t funny to my mother at all, and she certainly didn’t like the present the cat gave her. [LAUGHTER] She couldn’t believe that my daughter would run around with a mouse. Why they flushed it down the toilet, I don’t know, but that’s what she did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you remember the flood of ’48? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, I do. In fact, it was on a Sunday morning, if I remember right. There was a friend and I—he was in the church, but he obviously wasn’t active and he was working at a tavern just south of what was Richland there, on the way to Richland Wye. And he went up to change a lightbulb and was electrocuted. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And, like I say, I switch the names around, so I don’t know what his name was. All I know is I knew him from church. But at that point he wasn’t very active. And yes, I do remember the flood, but not—that’s what I remember. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That’s what you remember? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And that’s when they built the dike across from Hains and whatnot. But it didn’t get to our house. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. And then they built what they called the Miracle Mile then as well—the long structure there to keep the water out. How else has Richland changed since you were—I mean, obviously there’s so many changes since you were small, when you first remember. But what else strikes you as— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, at first, until I was a teenager—it started a little before I was teen here—just downtown Richland. And then the end of Uptown was finished when I was 13. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The Uptown Mall? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah. The movie theater and Spudnuts were one of the first ones built and then the north end was finished when I was 13. That added a lot of stores and this type of thing. And more and more and more people, and—so, like I say we kept—well, I didn’t worry about it, but you kept expecting it to close up. I remember my dad saying, they found out that once a community like this can get over 100,000 then they can support themselves when that one plant moves out, and can survive. They won’t be what they were before. But I’m not worried about it finishing before I die, so—[LAUGHTER] Plus, I’m on pension and social security, so— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Well, at this point, I don’t even—it’s hard to say when they’ll finish, given the task before them. It’s a really, really big one. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, there is something that I’ve never figured out and they keep doing it. I remember my whole time when I was a kid and through the whole thing, is when they took a bid, they took the low bid. I don’t remember that there was ever once that it didn’t go way, way, way over. But they kept taking the low bid! They didn’t learn. And the other thing I don’t understand is, why, when somebody got the bid, why didn’t they say, you have to finish it at this amount of money? That, to me—now, if I was doing something on the site, I would have something in there like that. [LAUGHTER] It just never made sense to me, and they’re still doing it. Does it make sense to you? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: No. No, it doesn’t. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, because I think they lost out by taking low bids. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, there’s definitely a—well, part of the issue is that, I think, that they’re spending taxpayer dollars and people want to know that they’re getting—that they’re going with the least expensive option. But if I’m understanding your point correctly, it’s that the least expensive option sometimes turns out not to be the least expensive option— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, it never did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: --if it’s not quality work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Oh, I see, I see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Or yeah, the nature of it is cost overrun. And yeah, there should be a-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It always went way, way, way, way, way—I mean it wasn’t—it was way, way, way, way, way over there. And it never made a bit of sense. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, I’ve never heard of someone finishing a project at Hanford on time and under budget. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Or anywhere close to on-budget. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah, they just—like the Vitrification Plant keeps getting delayed, and finishing the closing down of the Plutonium Finishing Plant. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Once they got the contract, they—they don’t always get to keep it forever, but—so I don’t know. That’s one thing that’s never made a bit of sense to me. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: That actually—brings me to another question. Did you notice any changes in the town when Hanford would change contractors? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not really, except when they brought in new contractors, then they brought in more people and different types of people—you know, different expertise and this type of thing. But it’s just changing—when it was just one company, I don’t really— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What about during the shift in the late ‘80s from production to cleanup and kind of the rise of the environmental consciousness, if you will. Can you talk about what you remember about the community at that time, and kind of how the people negotiated that change in Hanford’s role? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: You know, I don’t remember that at all. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Like I say, a lot of things, when I had a bunch of little tiny kids, I had my own little world. [LAUGHTER] The ‘60s are a pretty big blur. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. What about later, in the ‘80s and the early ‘90s when cleanup started to become a high priority? And the actual production was being shut down. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, I just remember, maybe this is coming to an end kind of a thing. But it didn’t affect me. I didn’t see anybody seem to be bothered. You just get—because you’ve been there for so many years, and it just kept going on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: So—my husband didn’t talk about how it affected him or anything, or my dad. My mother—but I remember one thing, she—the last library she worked on was the old Richland Library. They—I guess the new one’s over 30 years old? A lot older than I thought it was. But anyway, she says, they just had to build this new one. They just couldn’t—they could not use that building anymore. And then they build a new one, and somebody was in it for another 30 years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: The old building? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The old building. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Where is that building? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was between George Washington and Jadwin and Swift. You know, where the city hall is? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: It was right south of the city hall. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And it was a domed—orange dome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, okay. Isn’t that a vacant, or an empty space now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: They took it out, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Just like the old community house. They cut it in half. [LAUGHTER] But I don’t know. And yet, to look at the theater—the Richland Theater, that’s still there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: It is, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But the one we went to as kids was the Village Theater, which was just a couple blocks away on George Washington Way. On the other side of Lee. They had the westerns on Saturday morning. So we were there for the westerns. The other thing I remember about the movies that’s so different from now is that we didn’t get the movies for two to three years, until—you know, the big—evidently, they didn’t make a jillion copies. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And we didn’t get them for two or three years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: I can remember that. So a lot of the big ones, people had gone on vacation and already saw it. But there was enough of us that didn’t that there were still big, big, big lines. That’s one thing I remember. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Do you think maybe that had something to do with government procurement, maybe? Or the movie theater being run by the government? Or do you think it was the availability—just the size of the city— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The availability of the film is what always entered my mind. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Huh. Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And the other thing is not a lot of people flew when I was a kid, because—and I might be way off—but it seemed to me that they were paying about as much then as I—to go to Arizona as I—going to go this Christmas. Very few people flew, and it was in the hundreds of dollars. And I’m paying $300 to go to Arizona at Christmas. [LAUGHTER] And that’s another thing that interests me. Of course, now, most of us fly nowadays. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Yeah, that’s kind of the default. Or we get prepared to drive long distances, which—I imagine would have been—I imagine getting to Kennewick and Pasco when you were a child would have been quite an undertaking, in terms of just the roads. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: We didn’t go very often. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: You didn’t go very often. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: But the other thing that isn’t mainly about here, but—I don’t know if you’ve ridden much in Benton City, but there’s Acord Road, that is a two-lane road, and not much on the sides, and it goes ssshhh on a canyon. Well, that’s what our highways were when I was a kid. It took—the two places we went was either Salt Lake or the San Francisco area. It took us 18 hours to get to either one. Well, it takes us ten now. See, these freeways, they’re wide, they’re one-direction. You’re not loofing around— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Safer, too, I imagine. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Only place you loof around is on Cabbage Hill, really, to an extent. That has been a big change. But I remember, we’d have the kids in the car at 4:00 AM and get to Grandpa’s at midnight. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. That’s a long day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: That is a long day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: With kids in the car. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, but it was easier than stopping. But we didn’t always do that. In some ways, when you have four little kids, it’s easier to do that than to stop. That’s one big difference. But that’s just in general; that has nothing to do with this area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Well, that’s still a really, really important difference. You mentioned earlier that your parents had worked on Atomic Frontier Days floats. Do you remember which floats specifically that they worked on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yes, they were Toastmasters and Toastmistress. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And I think Dad worked on one of the Lions’. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. Was that something they just kind of did for fun to help out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Yeah, they were in those organizations, and— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And, boy, they put in the work and the designing. People were—well, when they first moved, when they were just building the place, it wasn’t a high-educated group of people. And then when they built and whatnot so they could come in—the scientists. And then I remember Dad saying when I was in high school, it had the highest percentage of PhDs in the world kind of a thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: When people talked about, nobody talked to them about going to college, I said, you’re kidding. I just—everybody I knew went to college from here. The schools were very good here. At least the ones I went to—very, very good. Then I went to BYU and got married the last day of the quarter and came back and started at CBC. I think that was the third or fourth year of CBC—but it already had a good reputation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Did you finish? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No, I didn’t. I’ve been taking courses—until just a few years ago, I’ve been taking courses off and on. And then I was in the seniors programs that they had, and they quit that. So— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: What kind of courses did you take? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, we had two businesses when the kids got to teenagers, my one son—well, he was a scout, and for one of his merit badges—my husband’s boss was the scout master. He also, on the side, had bees. So we checked with the neighbors, and they were okay, and we had two or three hives in our backyard. My son couldn’t find a job for the summer, so he said, Dad, can we have bees? So I don’t know, we had big contracts and whatnot and we worked together with the other ones, and were very involved in the state bee organization. It was the most wonderful thing for our family. We just—we worked hard, and we worked together. But then the older ones were leaving, and the two younger ones got deathly allergic. So then when we didn’t have the bee business anymore, our son says—I knew a man that was selling his carpet business, so we bought the carpet business. But anyway, when we had the bee business, I took two years of accounting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Okay? [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I kind of went off on that, didn’t I? And I’ve taken about every--oil painting, whatever it is kind of thing. But when I first went, I was taking the basic courses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right, the general education. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: The general education. And then I just went off on the different things. So I kept the books for the businesses and answered the phone. We liked the beekeeping business much more than the carpet cleaning business. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: I bet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And like I say, we worked together. One of the things is, one of my boys took them out—you know you move bees at night? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And he was out in the farm somewhere and the truck turned over. They said there were policemen all around keeping cars from going, but none of them were out helping. [LAUGHTER] It was a stinging proposition, but it was good for us. It really brought us close. The kids learned if you work hard, you could have anything you wanted. They got the skis, they went skiing. They’re still real hard workers. They found the benefit of that. My one son, when we were getting rid of the carpet business, he decided to—he was going to go to college, and we had some problems—well, some men that worked for us came in and had keys to our house and came in and stole our truck and a few other things and whatnot. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: And we got a call from a policeman in Oregon, and there was this little box that looked—that was locked and whatnot, and they took that. It didn’t have anything that they wanted, but it had a lot of personal papers. So the police sent it to us. Anyway, when we were getting out of the carpet keeping business, my son, David, took it with him to school and took the debt and whatnot and built up a carpet-cleaning business in Las Vegas. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Oh, wow. Does he still do that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: No. He works for Costco now. And he’s in Selah. He was at the Kennewick store and they transferred him to Yakima. They have moved to a house that’s over 100 years old. And they’ve kept adding to it and adding to it. I don’t go upstairs because I need the bathroom often, and you have to know exactly which staircase you go up to get to the bathroom up there. [LAUGHTER] His wife’s family grew up there, and they said, oh, we’re so interested. We always walked past this house. We wondered who owned it now. And so it is a very interesting house. But—[LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Well, Sharon, is there anything else you would like to add or that I haven’t talked about before we— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Not that’s coming. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Right. Well, I just want to thank you for sharing so much about your life. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, you’re welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: And opening up to us about your experiences growing up in Richland. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Kent: Well, you’re welcome. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX157585748"> Franklin: Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/56vU5WxUfWo">View interview on Youtube.</a> </div> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1943- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sharon Kent Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 7/26/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Description An account of the resource Sharon Kent moved to Richland, Washington in 1943 as a child. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities General Electric Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963; Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6636b7d3ee2798561e5afe99caf2da22.JPG 1e22122264ec625e8c5e2ce56b375112 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb4a77dbb03596cf36d5d337a3b5f42a5.pdf e09664da34b9a91f8f4cdfd651377fd4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe6f5ee7f141b337982328a96183b1fdd.mp4 d0903c921bd7b6006b4ff4f9bbf7d5ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shirley Carlisle Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Shirley Carlisle on November 7, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Shirley about her experiences growing up in Richland. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Shirley Carlisle: Shirley Ann Carlisle. S-H-I-R-L-E-Y. Ann, A-N-N. Carlisle. C-A-R-L-I-S-L-E. Franklin: Great, thank you, Shirley. And it’s okay if I call you Shirley, right? Carlisle: Sure. Franklin: Okay. So, you were born in Richland? That’s correct? Carlisle: I was born in Kadlec. Franklin: Okay. And Richland was still a—until—and you were born what year? Carlisle: 1947. Franklin: Okay. And that’s when— Carlisle: It was still under government control. My mother had an Army doctor. Franklin: Okay. And so, to have lived here at that time, your family must have worked— Carlisle: My dad was a Hanford patrolman. Franklin: Okay. And when did your dad come to the area? Carlisle: My grandfather died in Pasco in 1937. My dad came out after that. Franklin: Oh, so your family was here before the Manhattan Project. Carlisle: Before, yes. Before the Manhattan Project. Probably ’34 or something like that. Franklin: Okay, and do you know what your grandfather did in Pasco? Carlisle: My granddad homesteaded down along the Columbia River. Franklin: Oh, wow. Carlisle: So, he had a small little homestead down along the Columbia. Franklin: And so your father came out before your grandfather died, or after? Carlisle: You know, I’m not really sure. It was sometime around the time that my granddad died. Franklin: Okay. And what did—did he come to take over the farm? Carlisle: He—yes, he came out to help his mother and he had five brothers and sisters, so he came to help with family. Franklin: Was he one of the older? Carlisle: He was the oldest. Franklin: He was the oldest, okay. So his brothers and sisters still lived with his father and mother on this homestead. Carlisle: Right. I had two aunts—or, an aunt and an uncle that graduated from Pasco High School about 1947, ’48. Franklin: Okay. So what led to your father starting to work at Hanford? He must’ve worked for DuPont eventually, right? Carlisle: He did. That was his first job, was DuPont. He had worked, you know, around Pasco, the farms, that kind of thing. Franklin: Okay. Do you—mention why he got a job at the Manhattan Project? Carlisle: Well, because it was the going thing. And it was much better pay. And he didn’t think there was security there—longevity, I should say. Yeah. He actually worked there maybe ten years and still didn’t think he was going to be there very long, so he bought farm in Colville and when Hanford went down, he was going to go back to farming. Well, we never went back to farming. Franklin: So he must’ve moved—did he move to Richland, then, when he started the job? Carlisle: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Carlisle: My folks, they were married in ’45 in Hood Park, and then his—their first house they had was 90 Craighill, a little one-bedroom prefab because it was just the two of them. And he went to work for Hanford as a patrolman. My dad wasn’t a very big man; he didn’t particularly care to like being a patrolman because it was kind of rowdy in those days. And so my dad quit. So my mom said, one day about two weeks after he quit, a knock on the door and this Hanford patrolman, and they wanted to know where my dad’s at. Well, he’s out in the backyard. So they go out and talk to him, and patrol leaves and my dad comes back into the house. My mom says, well, what did they want? He said, I can’t quit. So my dad went back to work. Because it was a war effort. So my dad couldn’t quit. So they put him, then—he was working maintenance, then, after that. And eventually ended up in power. Franklin: Oh, okay, in power, where? Carlisle: He was the junior power operator out in the Area. Franklin: Okay. Do you know where specifically he was stationed? Carlisle: The last place he worked at that I remember was the D Area. But he was in several of the different areas. Franklin: And was he running the power plants that supplied the reactors? Carlisle: You know, I really—they didn’t tell you a whole lot, and I really don’t quite know exactly. I just know his title was like a junior power operator. Franklin: So instead of quitting, he was kind of forcibly transferred because they needed— Carlisle: They agreed that they would put him in a different job other than the patrol. Franklin: Well, because also if he quit, they would have to leave the house, right? Carlisle: Right, yes, and they were prepared to do that, because Dad didn’t particularly like all the rowdiness and stuff that was going on at Hanford. He wasn’t a big man, so he just wasn’t able to handle some of the fights and stuff that happened out there. Franklin: Oh, okay. How did he get in—did he do any security or law enforcement previously to--? Carlisle: No, no. Franklin: No? Carlisle: They hired everybody on the spot. My dad was like 5’7” but he was very stout, and so I guess, maybe, because of his stoutness, they figured he could handle that. But he said he was a little too short for that. Franklin: So he was placed into that job, then. Carlisle: Yes, yes. Franklin: He didn’t pick being a patrolman, okay. Carlisle: His mother also worked out there. She worked in the kitchen in one of the barracks-type places. Franklin: Oh, in the mess hall? Carlisle: In the mess hall, yes. Franklin: Oh, wow, so a long—like, several generations or two generations— Carlisle: Right. His brothers and sisters—his sister was a telephone operator for two years out there. Franklin: Oh, wow. Carlisle: And then one of his brothers was a truck driver out there. Franklin: Oh, wow, so a big kind of family—you know. Carlisle: Yeah, it was a whole-family thing. Franklin: Wow, that’s really interesting. Did any of them continue to work after the war, at Hanford, or was it just your dad? Carlisle: Well, Dad was out there about 27, 28 years. Franklin: Right. Any of his other family? Carlisle: No, no. Ella Mae was only there about two years. Franklin: She’s the mother? Carlisle: The sister. Franklin: The sister, oh, okay. Carlisle: And Grandma, which was Mary, she was only there maybe a year. Franklin: Oh, okay. And did they have to ride all the way out from Pasco up there, or did they get— Carlisle: Of course, Dad lived up here in Richland, so he got on the bus and went out. And Grandma, I think lived in a barracks. Grandma and Ella Mae, her daughter, lived in a barracks out there. Franklin: Oh, wow. Carlisle: Because Ella Mae, I think she walked to wherever she was going. Franklin: Oh, wow. Did your family know any of the settlers that had been in the area before 1943? Carlisle: Not that I’m aware of. Because they were basically from Pasco. Franklin: Sure, but they had known that those people had been evacuated. Carlisle: Yes, oh, yes. Franklin: Did they ever talk about that? The evacuations? Carlisle: No, uh-unh. Franklin: Okay. So your family lived in a one-bedroom prefab before you were born, right? Carlisle: Before I was born. Franklin: And then moved to a two-bedroom. Carlisle: Right, because my mom was pregnant and so we moved up above the hill to a two-bedroom prefab. Franklin: Okay. What do you remember about growing up in a prefab? Carlisle: You know, the things I remember, I think, are so normal that—for other people that didn’t live in a government town would not be—it would be different. I can remember us having FBI agents walk down the street, which I thought was very normal for everybody. You know, asking about your neighbors and interviewing you about what was—what your neighbors was. That was very typical. I can remember that. Usually two guys walking down the street. The little house that we lived in, it was supposed to be temporary so it didn’t have any skirting or anything on it. My dad had to put skirting on it so I wouldn’t crawl underneath the house. And it didn’t have a—it just had flat roof. My mom said, one time when I was little, we had a sandstorm because I lived on the edge of town. She had gone to Burbank where her sister was living. And when she came back—she had left the windows open. She had to put me in the little utility room to clean up all the sand that had blown in, because it was so sandy. And we had a hot water—hot water—a water tank not too far from—just across the street from us. And down the street was an air raid siren that they tested, I remember once a month; it might have been more than that. Franklin: So, there was no hot water heater in the house? Carlisle: No, what I meant to say was it was a water tank—a big water tank for the city. Franklin: Oh, that supplied the water. Carlisle: The supply, yes, yeah. Franklin: So like one of those classic ones on the stilts? Carlisle: Yes, with stripes on it. Black and stripes and— Franklin: Oh, wow. There’s one of those in the town I grew up in. It’s like the tallest thing in our town. Carlisle: Right. Franklin: Yeah, we call it the water tower. Carlisle: Yeah. They eventually took that down and it laid on the ground for a long time and we—they took the top off of it. So us kids got to play inside of it. It was really fun to run up and down the walls of that thing. Franklin: Oh, I bet. And by that time, I guess, the city had put in sewer. Carlisle: Right. Franklin: Right. So, if your water came from a tank, what—do you remember what the bathroom—were there bathroom facilities? Carlisle: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Oh, okay. Carlisle: Yeah, we had the sewer line and the bathroom and—yeah. We had an irrigation ditch that ran right behind Carmichael and down towards what’s now the freeway. Franklin: Oh, wow. Carlisle: Right above Fred Meyer’s was an irrigation ditch. So we had irrigation water. Franklin: Oh, wow. And that had been there from the people before, right? That irrigation ditch had been laid before, for the old farming residents of Richland? Carlisle: In the area that I lived in, as far as I know, there was not a lot of old—well, there was no farm houses that I remember. Where Carmichael was, I vaguely remember that was like an orchard in that area and some of the houses that—the first house that we lived in had like a peach tree or an apricot tree or whatever it was in the yard. So there was still fruit trees left from when it was an orchard. So there really wasn’t a whole lot of farmhouses. Franklin: Oh, wow. Your mother’s family, were they from the area as well? Carlisle: She came out from North Dakota in probably, oh, ’43, something like that. Franklin: Did she come out to work at Hanford? Carlisle: No. Her sister was the one that lived—her sister’s husband worked for Hood on the dairy, which is now Hood Park. So she came out to stay with her sister. Franklin: Okay. And how did—so her and your father met— Carlisle: Yeah. My Uncle Wayne, my aunt’s husband, his dad had a truck farm, and they all lived in the Pasco area, and they just knew my dad, and so— Franklin: Kind of set them up. Carlisle: Yeah, he did. My uncle actually asked him to come out to the house and he needed an excuse, so he was going to buy some car parts that my uncle had. The only thing is, my dad didn’t have a car. He had to borrow a car to out to buy these car parts to see my mom. And then the dog bit him, so. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Wow, what an eventful day! Carlisle: Yeah! Franklin: That’s a really cute story. So, what we know about the prefabs is that they were not really built to last— Carlisle: Correct. Franklin: They were houses from the Tennessee Valley Authority. They were from the New Deal. So it’s kind of amazing that most of them are still standing. I’m kind of wondering what—your parents kind of grew up in older houses, maybe craftsmans or farmhouses. Did they ever talk to you about their impressions of the prefabs, or did they have anything they liked about them or anything they really didn’t like about them? Carlisle: Well, you know, they both came off farms, so I’m sure that having an indoor toilet was, you know, quite nice for them, because they were used to having the outdoor toilets. My mom was very happy with the little house that she had. It came furnished. I still have some of the prefab furniture that we had when I was a little kid. Franklin: Oh, wow. Carlisle: They did everything for you. If the lightbulb went out, you called, and they came up and changed the lightbulb. They had people that came and emptied the garbage. We had three crews that came around. We had a little cubby hole in that prefab and there was a little tiny garbage can; they would take it out of the cubbyhole, set it on the street. The next crew would come along and pick it up, and the third crew would come along and put it back. My mom locked herself out, she’d call and they’d just come up and unlock the doors and let her in. Franklin: Oh, wow. Were your parents pretty happy with that level of kind of control, right, by the government over the domestic situation? Carlisle: You know, I don’t think they really thought it was control. I think they just thought that it was benefits of the job. Franklin: Sure. It’s always kind of—strikes me that a lot of that service that’s done for these people kind of similar in a lot of ways to descriptions of a socialist utopia, you know, where—full employment, provided housing, and all services provided to people. So your parents were happy with that benefit of the job. Carlisle: Yeah. Because they came from—my dad came through the Depression, where he didn’t have anything. He and his brother roamed the fields of Wyoming picking up animal bones to take to the bonemeal factory to make money. Franklin: Really? Carlisle: And so this was really nice. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. So your—you mentioned earlier that your father always kind of had this anxiety about the security or kind of permanency of the job, but he ended up staying there for 20— Carlisle: About 27 years, yeah. Franklin: Yeah, so, wait, why did he choose to stay? Did he ever talk to you about why he kept on the job? Carlisle: Well, because it was a good job. I mean, he had health benefits and, you know, all kinds of things that he wouldn’t have had if he had gone to farming. So that would’ve been his second choice, and that’s what he bought, was a farm, up in Colville. And never did go there, because he didn’t know whether Hanford was going to be here that long or not. He didn’t know what they were making out there. Hadn’t a clue. So. Franklin: Sure, sure. What did your family do with the farm out in Colville? Carlisle: Well, they had until like the ‘50s and then ’57, ’58 and then sold it. He rented it out and from when he bought it to when he sold it, he rented it out. And then he decided that maybe Hanford wasn’t going anyplace and that he would continue on out there. Franklin: Did your mother ever work out there? Carlisle: No, she didn’t. She worked for Newberry’s in Richland. Franklin: Oh, okay, and that was a department store. Carlisle: Yeah, it was a department store. Franklin: And that was in the Uptown? Carlisle: Yeah, in the Uptown. Franklin: In that corner now where the antiques— Carlisle: Where the antiques store is. Franklin: And how long did she work for Newberry’s? Carlisle: Oh, she worked there until it closed and from the time I was little, so probably about 20 years. Franklin: And do you remember when it closed? Carlisle: You know, I don’t. Franklin: Okay. Carlisle: It was—I don’t know. Franklin: It’s okay. Carlisle: Yeah, I just— Franklin: Newberry’s was a chain, correct? Carlisle: It was, uh-huh. Franklin: Kind of like a Woolworth’s? Carlisle: Right. Franklin: Yeah, that’s kind of a forgotten era of retail today. Carlisle: Yes, yeah. Franklin: What did Newberry’s provide? Like, what kind of things did they sell? Carlisle: Oh, at Christmastime, they had Toyland upstairs. Wow, that was pretty good. Franklin: Ooh. Carlisle: Stores closed about 5 or 6:00 at night. And the only night they were open late was Friday night. And then at Christmastime they might be open on Saturday late. And never were they open on Sunday. Franklin: So the Uptown was kind of the locus of shopping. Carlisle: Yeah. Franklin: In the area. Do you have any other memories about that area? Carlisle: Well, of course, I could walk from my house to Newberry’s. And my mom—of course, I didn’t drive, so then I would ride home with her sometimes. Of course Uptown Richland, we had Macy’s, The Bon, that was up there. Franklin: The Bon Marché, right? Carlisle: Bon Marché was on the corner of Jadwin and—in the Parkway, up there. Franklin: Oh, right. And what was a Bon Marché? Carlisle: It—what was it? Franklin: Yeah. Carlisle: It was a clothing store. Franklin: Like a Macy’s, or--? Carlisle: Yeah. Franklin: Some of the others— Carlisle: Well, Bon Marché went from Bon to Macy’s, so. Franklin: Oh, okay, gotcha. Gotcha. Interesting. And then do you remember the Parkway being an actual park before they paved it through? Carlisle: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. Carlisle: I remember the theater down at the end, that we could go to the theater down there, and then Uptown Theater. And there was a drugstore in where there’s a bunch of offices now, where the Players is. But, no, I don’t remember that it was ever anything but the Parkway. Franklin: Okay. Did you go down to Howard Amon much at all? Did you go down to swim in the river and did you have many interactions with the--? Carlisle: I actually didn’t swim in the river very much. My dad actually preferred the ditch. We’d go across the street, and my dad was a good swimmer, so he would swim in the ditch. But we didn’t—he didn’t—he might’ve when he was—before I remember, he might have done a lot of swimming in the river. Franklin: Okay, interesting. So you went to school in—all your schooling was in Richland, or K through 12, right, was in— Carlisle: Marcus Whitman, Carmichael, and at that time, Columbia High School. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember doing civil defense drills? Carlisle: Oh, yes. Franklin: Okay! Can you—it’s so foreign to so many people today, especially anyone of my generation or younger. Can you talk us through one of those? Carlisle: And it was so normal for us. I don’t remember whether we did it—at least once a month, maybe every two weeks; I can’t remember. And when I was a kid, the air raid siren would go off. Because we had air raid sirens, and it would go off, and we’d have to go out in the hallway and get down on our hands and knees and duck our heads, and then we’d have to wait for the all-clear signal. And then as soon as we could hear the all-clear signal, then we could go back to class. But that was normal for us. Franklin: Was it, really? Carlisle: It was normal. It wasn’t anything scary; it was just something we did! I don’t know that at age that we really truly understood what that was all about, but— Franklin: Sure. How long did you do those for? Carlisle: I think we did them probably up until I was in—Carmichael is now middle school, but it was junior high then. And we would do, a couple of times, they loaded us all on buses and took us on an evacuation route in case we needed to be evacuated. So probably until I was in junior high school. Franklin: Do you remember where the evacuation route went? Carlisle: You know, I don’t think it was very far. I know we went down Wellsian Way and around and I really don’t know that it was very far, but. Franklin: What was the atmosphere of that like, for the children? Was that kind of like a field trip-type thing? Carlisle: Yeah, it was more of a fun-type thing. Because I—you know, most of us, a lot of us had lived here all our lives, so we were familiar with that kind of thing. That was not un-normal for us. So it was a day to get out of a few classes. Franklin: How old were you when you first knew what was being produced at Hanford? Carlisle: Oh. You know, I don’t know that I ever really—until I grew up and maybe got into high school, really, understood what was going on out there. Because, like I said, what was normal for us was, you know. We didn’t know anything. If I asked my dad what he did out in the Area, oh, he read dials or that kind of thing. And he would tell me more of the animals that he saw out in the Area. My mother would make him two sandwiches: one cat food sandwich and one sandwich for himself. He would feed the cat food sandwich to the raccoons and he’d tell me all about that. When he worked in town, he would bring me birds and all kinds of things that he would find. Franklin: Huh. But I assume, at some point, you did start to kind of piece together, you know, understand that—when did you first really understand Hanford’s kind of connection to the Cold War and all of that? Carlisle: Probably—you know, when you’re a kid, you don’t—those things don’t mean a whole lot to you, especially when you’ve grown up with that. So probably when I was in high school, and when my dad—I knew that when my dad couldn’t quit, because it was a war effort, then I kind of understood then that, you know, it was a war effort. Franklin: Sure. Sorry. I just lost my train of thought. And so, then, you went to Columbia High as well, and the mascot at that time was the Bombers, right? There’s been—it seems like there’s always kind of a simmering controversy surrounding that mascot, and I’d like to ask you your thoughts about that. Carlisle: Well, you know, the bomb does terrible things, but it also stopped the war and put the end to the war. So, there’s two sides to that. So, it—to me, it’s, the mascot being the bomb, that’s what we were all about, that’s what we made here, and, so that’s fine. I didn’t— Franklin: Okay. Were you ever concerned—when you started to realize that there was—your dad was working next to a nuclear plant, were you ever concerned or was your mother ever concerned about his safety, or, you know, any kind of effects from being so close to radiation? Carlisle: Not when I was growing up, but as I got older, I was very much aware of that, and was actually involved in a lawsuit. Franklin: Oh, really? Carlisle: Concerning that. Franklin: Okay. Carlisle: Not because I—I was a downwinder, a Hanford Downwinder. So for 20 years, we kind of fought with the government. Franklin: Can I ask you more about that? What made you join—or, what made you initiate that? Carlisle: Well, I had and still have a disease that the emissions that was going on, it increases that disease. So I decided—my aunt was also involved in Hanford Downwinders. She also signed off on that, but she was able to get the—she was exposed to stuff out in the Area, so she was able to get the, whatever it is, the money that they give out for that. Franklin: The EEOICPA? Carlisle: Yes, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. How did your litigation attempts turn out? Carlisle: Well, it—I think it went on for 20 years. It was very interesting. We eventually lost. I think there was two cases that won, and we eventually—we settled. I shouldn’t say we lost. We settled. Franklin: Okay. Are there terms—can you discuss that settlement, or is there— Carlisle: Yeah, I’d rather not. Franklin: Sure, I totally understand. I guess, I’d like to ask you about the—so growing up in Richland, your father worked for the Site, then eventually you have a disease that is linked to emissions at Hanford. Joining that lawsuit, was that hard for you, kind of having grown up in this very patriotic, pro-Hanford atmosphere? Did you feel like you were turning on the community or on yourself, or—how did you feel about—was there a conflict, I guess, is my question. Carlisle: Yes and no, because we were very proud to be working for Hanford. But it was sometimes really hard to realize that we weren’t told everything that was detrimental to our health. So that becomes kind of a conflict, like you don’t want that to happen to somebody else, so you want to bring that out. It maybe wouldn’t ever benefit me, but it certainly might benefit someone else. Franklin: Right, okay, thank you. So you would’ve graduated—when did you graduate high school? Carlisle: ’65. Franklin: ’65, okay. So I guess I’ll get to that in a minute. So Richland was privatized in 1958. Carlisle: Correct. Franklin: I wanted to hear your thoughts on what you remember about that. Carlisle: Well, that was when we were able to buy our houses. So my dad bought the little prefab on the corner, the two-bedroom prefab. I think he paid about $2500 for it. Because it was a corner lot, it was a little bit more expensive than the other ones that were like $2300. And then eventually the lady that lived next-door moved out, a couple years later, and we bought the precut, and my dad paid $8000 for that. He paid more for his car than he paid for his house. Franklin: Is there a difference between precut and prefab? Carlisle: Yes. Franklin: Okay, can you describe that for me? Carlisle: The prefab, those were ones, twos, and three-bedrooms. They were pretty small. They had the flat roofs that were saltbox-type things. They were some of the first temporary ones. The precut is about 1,150 square feet, and it was built more to stay than the prefabs. Franklin: Did the precuts come in after World War II? Carlisle: The one I’m living in now, I think it was built in 1948. Franklin: Okay, okay. Are those considered Alphabet Homes, or are they— Carlisle: Yes, yeah. I think it’s a Q or something like that. Franklin: Oh, okay, okay. So it is a—and they kind of placed those in that prefab neighborhood. Carlisle: Right. Franklin: Right, because there is a distinct, kind of, zones of mostly what we call Alphabets and then others where it’s mostly prefabs. Carlisle: We had a precut on the corner, a prefab, and a precut. And they took the prefab out of the middle of that and then separated the place. The place that I live in, I think there was a prefab there before it, because the plumbing all runs to the front of the lot; whereas now it’s in the back of the lot. So they took out a lot of the prefabs and put in the precuts. Franklin: Okay, and do you remember when they switched the roofs over on the prefabs? Carlisle: 1950—I think I have it on those pictures there. Franklin: Yeah. 1951? Carlisle: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. You probably don’t remember much about that. Carlisle: No. Franklin: I imagine Richland, when you were a small child, would’ve been pretty devoid of trees or kind of still starting to grow? Carlisle: Yeah, a lot of the people went down to the river and got cottonwoods and the trees to bring up to the houses to plant. So, yeah, there was—we had a few small trees in our yard, but they were—because it was orchard. The neighbor across the street had two peach trees in their front yard. And eventually, of course, they got taken down and different trees put in there. Franklin: Was it the government that took those down? Carlisle: No, well, probably the homeowners. Franklin: Oh, okay. Carlisle: Or, not homeowners, but the people who lived there. Franklin: Sure. Were your parents excited, nervous about the transfer of Richland to its citizens? I’m wondering if you remember anything about like kind of the general mood at the time? Carlisle: No, my dad had the choice of staying with the City of Richland and working with the City of Richland if he wanted, or actually going out to the Area. Because my dad actually worked at the sewer plant. The Rose Bowl, when I was a kid. And when the city switched, then he actually went out in the Area and worked in the D Area and I think he worked in B and several different areas. Because he worked for DuPont, he worked for Douglas United Nuclear, he worked for GE. I think he retired from Douglas. Franklin: Yeah, that would make—you said he worked out there 27 years? Carlisle: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah, okay, that would make sense with the timeline. Yup, okay. As I was trying to like do my mental math. But pretty happy about that transfer of ownership, then? Carlisle: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. So you graduated in ’65. Carlisle: ’65. Franklin: We’ve been piecing together a bit of history and just started a new oral history project on civil rights in the Tri-Cities, and we know that there were a few African American families that lived in Richland. Do you recall going to school with any of the African American families there? Carlisle: When we were in high school, we had some football players and some basketball players that were African American. But we didn’t have a great population of that. We didn’t have any issues. I mean, civil rights didn’t exist to me. Franklin: Okay. Now we know that Kennewick had sundown laws which barred blacks from owning homes in Kennewick and being there after dark, and most lived in Pasco. Did you ever—and there were some NAACP demonstrations around the time that you would’ve graduated, and a little bit of strife. Did you hear anything about that? Did that impact you in any way? Carlisle: No. I remember, we’d go to Burbank and the African Americans usually lived in east Pasco. Franklin: Yeah. Carlisle: But that’s all I remember. I mean, it didn’t seem to be any—no problems. That I remember, anyway. Franklin: Sure. Did your family go much to the other cities in the Tri-Cities, or did you mostly stay—do most of your shopping and socializing in Richland, or did you get out in the wider area? Carlisle: Well, when I was little, there wasn’t a whole lot in Richland, and my dad was from Pasco. So we would go to Penney’s in Pasco. My uncle lived in Kennewick for, you know, 50 years. So we didn’t do a lot of shopping in Kennewick, but usually my dad gravitated towards Pasco. Franklin: Oh, okay. Do you still have family in that area? Carlisle: No. Mm-mm. Franklin: Oh, okay. So after you graduated, then what did you do? Carlisle: I went to CBC for a couple years, and then I went to Eastern Washington State. And then I came back, and I went to work for Payless / Rite Aid on the 29th of October. I’ve been there 48 years. Franklin: Wow. Is that the one on George—? Carlisle: No, it’s on Lee. Franklin: Oh, right, sorry, I always get the Walgreen’s and Rite Aid confused. I shouldn’t, because that’s my pharmacy. Carlisle: Within two miles of that, lived, worked, and was born within two miles of that area, all my life. Franklin: Wow, so you’re really rooted-in-place. Carlisle: Absolutely. Franklin: When you—how long were you at Eastern? Carlisle: I think I was there—I didn’t graduate. I think I was there about a year. Franklin: Oh, okay. Did you—is there any memorable—when people found out you were from Richland, were there any kind of memorable conversations, or did you find it—how was it, living in a community outside of Richland, I guess is kind of my question. Anything you noticed? Anything that was odd to you, or--? Carlisle: No. Franklin: People kind of treat you— Carlisle: I have a friend that lives just three blocks from me, that actually, we went to Eastern together. But she didn’t come to the Tri-Cities until she was in sixth grade. So when I talk about things that went on when I was a little kid, she can’t relate to some of that stuff; she doesn’t quite get it. Because her dad came out later and worked in the Area. Franklin: Oh, right, so she wouldn’t remember the government ownership. Carlisle: Right, the agents walking up and down the streets. That kind of thing. Franklin: I wondered, was your father working out on Site when President Kennedy came to visit? Carlisle: Yes, he was. Franklin: Did you go out to see him? Carlisle: I did. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could—what your memories are of that day. You would’ve been like a sophomore? You were a teenager, right? Carlisle: Yeah. Franklin: What are your memories of that day? Carlisle: Well, it was hot, and it was dusty, and it was dirty, and we were back in the crowd, and we just about saw him, and that was about it. About six helicopters came in, and you didn’t know which one he was in. That was it. I can remember Father Sweeney giving an invocation and Volpentest being up there talking. And then Kennedy talked, but how much I saw from the distance I was at? I don’t know. Franklin: How many people do you think were there? Carlisle: I don’t know. It seemed like maybe there was thousands. But I would guess, I don’t know, 5,000-6,000, maybe? 3,000? I don’t know. Franklin: Was that your first time ever being out on Site? Carlisle: Pretty much, so, yes. It was just out in the middle of the desert, so didn’t see anything. Franklin: Right. Have you been out on Site since then? Carlisle: I have, yeah. Franklin: Okay, and for--? Carlisle: I’ve done the B Reactor tour and some of the other tours. It’s very interesting. Franklin: Oh, great, okay. Let’s see here. What are some of your memories of some major events in the Tri-Cities like plants shutting down in the late ‘80s when Hanford—when things started to shut down. Carlisle: My dad—well, I remember the guy across the street took an early retirement and then had to go back to work. Voluntary retirement, and then had to go back to work because they needed him back there, I remember that. My dad, I think retired about the same time. But he didn’t have to go back; they didn’t call him back. You know. It didn’t seem to be any—my folks didn’t seem to be worried about it, because my dad was getting up there into the retirement age, so it was no big deal. Franklin: What do you remember about the end of the Cold War and the stopping of production at Hanford? I imagine that must’ve made the community pretty nervous about what was going—the economic future of the Tri-Cities. Carlisle: It did, and I think there was a sign on George Washington Way that said, last one out of Richland, turn out the lights, type of thing. So, yeah, people who were not long-term people like my folks were, they moved, they went back to where they were from. But they were still building up and things were still going along. It took a little time, but, yeah, we’re getting there. Franklin: Do you remember the Hanford Family at all? Carlisle: No. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember—what impact did Chernobyl have on the community that you can remember? Carlisle: Well, you know, everybody was concerned, of course. But as far as—I’m sure that sent people out in Hanford scrambling to make sure that everything was okay out there. But I don’t remember anything, other than the terrible thing that happened at Chernobyl, I don’t remember related to us. Franklin: Do you have any memories of social scene or local politics or other insights into life in the Tri-Cities since you were a child? Carlisle: Mm-mm. No, it was all—you know, just—it was very normal for me. All the things that went on. I have a hard time relating to the fact that other towns don’t have the cookie cutter houses that the government built. Because that’s the way I was grown up. Now I realize you don’t—you watch your kids. But when I was growing up, everybody had a Q clearance; everybody knew their neighbors. My mom had no problems with us girls sleeping out in the front yard and running around half the night. Franklin: Sure. And also everybody had a job, right? Carlisle: Everybody had a job. Franklin: It was literally a town of full employment. Carlisle: Yeah. Franklin: And people had strong background checks. Carlisle: Right, right. Franklin: Probably make it one of the safest communities you could— Carlisle: Right. Franklin: You know, because so much crime is caused by low economic status, and so, yeah, yeah, it’s— Carlisle: So you know, those were times that we had no problems. My mother was never afraid that if I was outside playing that something was going to happen. Even if the neighborhood guys were walking across the street—we had the bus stop where the buses stopped to pick up the guys—she knew all the neighbors and she knew they had gone all through security clearances, and she had no issues with that. Franklin: Sure. Did you have a bus stop on your street? Carlisle: Right across the street from the house. Franklin: Wow, and your father would get on and get off. Carlisle: Yup. Franklin: Did you have a private telephone, or did you have like a party line system? Carlisle: Oh, we had a party line. Well, we actually didn’t have a phone until my mom got pregnant with me, and then we had a phone for a short length of time. And then after that, the phone got taken out, and we had phone booths on a couple of corners. One lady across the street from us, the Stanleys, had a phone, and she said, anytime you need the phone, just come on over. My door’s always unlocked. So we would use her phone. But for the most part we would use the phone booth. And then when we first got a phone, it was a four-party line. And then got down to two-party line. Franklin: And then eventually— Carlisle: I’ve had two phone numbers in my whole life. Franklin: Oh, wow. Wow. One—I assume, one would’ve been for— Carlisle: A Whitehall number, and then when they changed it from Whitehall, then, to this one. Franklin: Oh, wow, that’s really interesting. I don’t think many people can say that. I know I’ve had so many phone numbers, I can’t even keep track of them. Okay, I think I’ve reached most of my—at the end of my questions. I just have kind of one large reflective question, and that is, what would you like future generations to know about living in Richland during the Cold War? Carlisle: Well, I think we were very unique and very blessed in many ways to be able to—my dad had a sixth grade education. So to be able to work at Hanford and end up with a good retirement and a pension and medical care, that was very, you know, wonderful for him and my family. So Hanford did well by us. Franklin: What about for yourself? Did you ever feel any fear or excitement or anything, being so close to the producer of two-thirds of the US nuclear weapons stockpile? Carlisle: No, because we didn’t realize all that. You grow up with that, and it just kind of sneaks up on you quietly. We never had any problems from it. No, I never—it never bothered me. Franklin: Okay. Carlisle: Always joked about it, you know. The water—turn off the lights and I’ll glow in the dark, type thing, but—heh. And I remember my dad would call home and say he was hot and he had to take a bath. And he said you never got scrubbed down until you scrubbed down by a Hanford nurse. And he would get something maybe on his shoes or just a minor thing, and, boy, they were scrubbing him down. Franklin: Wow. Carlisle: But that was normal for us. It was a different frame of mind, because if I lived in a different town, and I came to this town, this would not be normal. But for me, it was normal. Franklin: But on the flipside, though, you have a—you and others have a disease that’s likely caused by what happened out at Hanford, so it also, though, impacted you in a very personal way—you and your family probably in a negative way, you know? Carlisle: It did, to some extent. And it’s hard to say that, yeah, my aunt passed away from causes related to Hanford, and that was terrible. But on the other hand, she got a lot of benefits, too. So, you know, it’s hard to really—things happen and she could’ve been someplace else, you know, and things could’ve happened. She could’ve been in a church and got shot. Franklin: Sure. I guess what you’re saying is it’s complicated. Carlisle: It’s complicated, yes. Franklin: What would you like—you know, there’s always, Hanford’s critics are often really focused on that latter part I was just talking about, on the effects of Hanford, you know, people in Spokane or on the west side or elsewhere. What would you like them to know about growing up near it and also being affected by it? What’s your perspective that you could give to them? Carlisle: Again, like I said, you know, it’s hard for me to judge outside of where I’ve lived all my life, and so, you know, I would hope that everybody takes into consideration what has happened in emissions and stuff like that that maybe could’ve been controlled. But you look at that B Reactor out there, and you think, oh my god, how did we live through all of that? Because it looks so antiquated compared to what we have nowadays. So, I don’t—you know. Franklin: Okay, well, Shirley, thank you so much for coming and sharing your insights with us. I really appreciate it. It’s good to hear from people that grew up in such a—it helps to understand what a unique environment Richland really was, when you were a child. Because it really—there’s very few—you can almost count on one hand the number of cities that were like that in the United States. Carlisle: Right, right, and when you say unique, it was unique, but we didn’t realize that. I didn’t realize—I mean, having been born here, I didn’t realize we were unique. I thought everybody lived like we did. So that was not unique to me. Franklin: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Carlisle: You’re welcome. Franklin: Yeah, I—when I first found out about it, you know, it was just like— Carlisle: You’re not from here? Franklin: No, I’m not. I’m from Alaska. Carlisle: Oh! Franklin: And I’ve lived in Alaska and Hawai’i. Carlisle: Well, they had-- Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:47:46 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Shirley Carlisle Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Shirley Carlisle was born at Kadlec Hospital in Richland in 1947. In this interview she talks about her parent's work at Hanford and growing up in Richland An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/07/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/.mp4 Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2D-2B Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe66c2781443260c517a80cce624804bf.jpg 5455cca1947d0f928a663f2aed18dd1c https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe110a9b7dd0d3eebf004b4a8a3798715.mp4 80a58b2b2f13039e2ea2be3a627364c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shirley Hankins Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Shirley Hankins Description An account of the resource An interview with Shirley Hankins conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c20fe3d0ef3378f837cbcac10d470e0.mp4 8ff7134b7fd9fbf590e1911a6bcad7c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shirley Stewart Location The location of the interview Royal City (Wash.) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound 0:00:00 Tom Hungate: And we’re rolling. Robert Franklin: We’re rolling. Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Shirley Stewart on January 17, 2020. The interview is being conducted at Shirley Stewart’s home outside Royal City. I will be talking with Shirley about her experiences growing up in what became the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Shirley Stewart: Shirley A. Stewart. S-H-I-R-L-E-Y. Adele, A-D-E-L-E. Stewart, S-T-E-W-A-R-T. Franklin: Great, thank you. And Shirley, what was your family name that-- Stewart: Oh, McGee. Franklin: McGee, right? And tell me where--tell me a bit about the ranch that you grew up in. 0:00:49 Stewart: Okay. My grandparents came into Cold Crick in 1908. And it was my dad’s stepdad and two brothers and Daddy and his sister. He was a blacksmith, and he used to ride his horse from Cold Crick clear to Hanford to shoe horses. This was in the early days. I believe that they did dryland wheat, some. But in 1916, maybe, they were looking for natural gas. And this guy came by and asked around if he’d be interested in drilling a well on his place. Grandpa thought about it a minute and he said, well, you know, I’m interested. But he said, I want to tell you this: if it’s water, it’s my well. If it’s natural gas, it’s yours. Well, the guy set up his thing to drill and he probably lasted a year or a little after and he finally ran out of funds. So then of course Grandpa went on with his life. Then in another year the guy came by and asked him the same thing. And he said, well, if it’s my well, it’s water, and if it’s gas, it’s yours. And I don’t know how deep that well was, but it had to be fairly deep. Well, they hit just a gusher of artesian well. That was the first--that was Brown’s well at Cold Crick. Franklin: And why was it called Brown’s well? Stewart: Well, because that was my grandpa’s—it was my dad’s stepdad, see? Franklin: I see. Okay, okay. 0:02:36 Stewart: And then they raised—they had a little orchard, as I remember them telling me, because I was too little then at first. But anyway, and then they had grain, hay. And but anyway, then my dad, at 18, he filled out to get a homestead—on the Homestead Act. Franklin: And your father’s name was Chester. 0:03:05 Stewart: Chester McGee, mm-hmm. And he had worked on that like maybe a year or two and then the war came along, and he went into the Navy then. Then when he came back out of the Navy, it was 125, I think, acres that he’d already approved on then. Well then Mom—my mother, meanwhile, my mother was a school teacher at Cold Crick, and that’s how Dad met her. So in 1919, they got married in December and they moved to White Bluffs for two years. He managed an orchard. And then he became a deputy sheriff of Benton County for eight years. Well, while he was there, he kept improving on this ground and getting it ready for when he was going to be through his thing. In 1928, a well driller got ahold of Dad and said would you be interested in drilling a well? And Dad said, well, yes, but I don’t have the funds to pay you. Oh, he said, that’s no big deal. Well, anyway, so Dad said, okay, I’ll give you 100 acres if you can get water for me. And we did. We had the biggest well. It was 1,150 feet deep. 90 pounds pressure and 100—let’s see if I’ve got—I figured I’d write this all down and then I’d tell ya. Franklin: We’ve heard of people drilling down several hundred feet, but I have not heard of anybody drilling down—like over 1,000 feet, I mean, that’s a really deep well. Stewart: Yeah, okay. They had 1,800 pounds pressure. Franklin: 1,800 pounds? Stewart: Mm-hmm, because that’s to irrigate over 300 acres with it. Franklin: Wow. 0:04:52 Stewart: Well, anyway, meanwhile, between the time Grandma’s well come in and ours, there was three other wells drilled at Cold Crick, but theirs were more shallow—they were shallower wells. And they had little farms there, too. I could name some of the people, but-- Franklin: Sure! Could you? Stewart: Rothrocks was one name. Meekers. M-E-E-K-E-R. Franklin: Okay, that name’s familiar. Stewart: And the other one was Schlosser. Raymond Martinez: Schlosser. Franklin: Is that like-- Stewart: S-C-H, wasn’t it? Martinez: Schlosser, Bob Schlosser. Stewart: Schlosser, uh-huh. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: Didn’t he move to Sunnyside? Martinez: Huh? Stewart: He moved to Sunnyside, didn’t he? Martinez: Yeah, he moved to Sunnyside. Franklin: Oh, and just for the record, that’s Raymond Martinez sitting off to the side who also grew up in Hanford-White Bluffs. That’s for our transcriptionist, who’s going to have to type all this out, just so she knows who you are, to put your name next to what you said. 0:05:55 Stewart: So then, after Dad’s time, it was eight years he was deputy sheriff. So they meanwhile were building—I think what they did is bought two old shacks and rebuilt them for our home. And then we moved there—I was about 18 months old, so it’d be 1931, we moved to the ranch then. Franklin: Okay. And you were how old in 19—so, sorry. When were you--when and where were you born? Stewart: I was 18 months old when they moved. Franklin: 18 months old. So you were born in White Bluffs, then? Stewart: I was born—actually, well, no, I was born in Kennewick. Franklin: And did your family live in Kennewick? Stewart: They lived in Kennewick when Dad was deputy sheriff. And I had a brother. My brother was seven years older then. Yeah. Franklin: So you were born in 1929? Stewart: 1929, I was born, mm-hmm. Franklin: Wow. Okay. And so where did you live in Kennewick? Stewart: I don’t know. Franklin: Do you remember? Or do you know where the family lived in Kennewick? 0:06:57 Stewart: They lived in a—I think, first they lived in Prosser for a while and then they moved to Kennewick. But I couldn’t tell you. I don’t know the streets. I think we went by there one time, and it was kind of just a little house that was there. I just don’t remember. Franklin: That’s fine, that’s fine. I was just curious. Because I live in downtown Kennewick, so I was just wondering-- Stewart: Well, it was kind of just at the edge of town. You know where the road goes on back up to Tri-Cities, I mean up to Hermiston. What is that? Martinez: Umatilla? Stewart: It was just off of that. Franklin: Yeah. Okay, interesting. Stewart: Two or three blocks. Franklin: Okay. So 1931, you moved up to Cold Creek. Stewart: To Cold Crick. Franklin: In kind of the house that your father had put together. 0:07:34 Stewart: Yeah, oh, yeah. But we did not have electricity. The power lines went right by, but they didn’t have transformers, see. But we never had electricity. Franklin: Not in the whole time? Stewart: Uh-uh. Never. Well, we had lots of water. [LAUGHTER] Power to the--yeah, no, brought it into the house and we had a bathroom. We had an outside poo-hoo for quite a long time and then we remodeled and Dad had an inside bathroom. But then we had a propane stove, like, I mean—with a firebox on one end to heat the water, because it was without electricity, you know? I can remember that. And then we had, Dad figured out some way of putting propane lights in through tubes on the ceiling. But it wasn’t very bright. You couldn’t read by it, because it was kind of just dim, you know. But it was fine. Franklin: And that’s to kind of see your way at night. Yeah, okay. Interesting. 0:08:40 Stewart: And let’s see, what do I need to tell you? My dad raised hay, mostly hay, and potatoes. And they did really good with those potatoes like in 1935 or ‘36, they bought a new John Deere tractor and a car, with my uncle’s dad and him, they farmed some together. The uncles, meanwhile, I was going to tell you, when we drilled our well, it was on the same strata as my grandmother’s, and it dried up. Franklin: Right, I had heard that. Stewart: Okay. And where the grape vineyards are now, at Cold Crick, that’s right where Grandma’s place was. Franklin: Right, the ones you can see kind of off to the—so that’s where the Browns-- Stewart: That’s where the Browns lived. Franklin: And you were closer to the road. Stewart: Yes, right. Well, we were right on-- Franklin: On what’s the road now. [TELEPHONE RINGING] Stewart: Hang on. Franklin: Here, we’ll just take a little pause. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: Okay. So that’s pretty interesting, in the middle, then, of the Depression, your parents were doing okay. 0:09:39 Stewart: Yes. And I can remember this, my brother was a teenager, you know, going with my uncles, they used to haul the potatoes up on the pass in the park and sell the spuds on the pass up there. Snoqualmie Pass. Franklin: Oh, wow, really? Stewart: And then they took them clear to Seattle. And I remember my brother going a time or two with Uncle Russ down to the shipping place on the bay. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Yeah. But they must’ve done pretty good, because they—you know, affording a new rig or two. We didn’t--I think Dad had one hired man part of the time. But with that artesian well, it was then the system that he had set up was really good. But we farmed with horses. We had a set of mules, Buster and Wally were their names. And then we had a set of heavy horses. Then they had one horse that we used to pull up, the derrick horse, we called him. And his name was Cato. That was my job when I was about six or seven, I got to go out and put up hay. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: And what happened when your grandparents’ well ran dry? I could imagine that-- Stewart: So they moved to Priest Rapids. Franklin: Okay. 0:11:12 Stewart: And they started a sheep ranch down there, the Browns did. I don’t remember too much, other than I knew they had a beautiful, great big barn, the people that had it before. And I think they had a few dairy cows, too, at one time. But they ended up in the sheep business. They put up hay at Priest Rapids, too. Franklin: Okay. And is that farm still there? Stewart: Oh, no, oh, no. Oh, no, no. They had to move also. Franklin: When—the dam? Stewart: Mm-hmm. When--no. They had to move--in fact, they let them finish—let me say this again. They let them lamb out their sheep that winter that everybody had to move out in ‘43. So Browns got to stay until January after the lambing. And then, meanwhile, they bought a place up at Vantage. Franklin: Wow, I see. 0:12:14 Stewart: That’s where they moved to. So, yeah. And we had about 100 head of ewes and I can remember Dad, they gave them to Browns. They herded them up there. And I don’t know how they did. They used to use that one tractor. They must’ve had to drive it. It was about 12 miles. Was it about that? Wasn’t it? About 12 miles to Priest Rapids from Cold Crick. They’d drive that tractor back and forth and use it. Isn’t that something? And then in 1937, I think, Dad bought another one. So they had two John Deeres. So they didn’t--by then have to--yeah. Franklin: What are some of your fondest memories growing up out there? 0:13:01 Stewart: [LAUGHTER] Oh, gosh. Well, you know what we did in the summertime a lot was pack a big lunch on Sunday and go down to the river and go swimming. And this was with the hired help and all of us kids and friends, and go swimming. And we’d always pack up wood and bring it home, because there was lots of wood, and that’s what we’d burn in the wintertime in the stove in the living rooms. Franklin: Right. Oh, yeah. Stewart: We always had wood stoves. Franklin: Kind of like driftwood that would come down? Stewart: Oh, and there was so much. Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Those were wonderful memories when we used to go swimming. In the wintertime, a few times, where we used to go--we’d go ice skating. But we did that right at home, because Dad had this—they could never turn the water completely off from the well in the wintertime. It always leaked around there. And then we’d skate down on kind of a canal-like thing. Those were precious. The other thing. Dad always loved to listen to the news, and all we had was a battery radio. Well, when he saw this—this is a funny—he saw where he could get a wind charger. So he got this first one that came out that charged the battery. He got up and put it on the point of the house and got it all ready. And, boy, it worked really good. It charged the batteries so fast. Well, one day, one time, we had a really bad windstorm and it blew so hard it shook the dishes out of the cupboard. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: So we had to disconnect the-- Franklin: The charger, yeah. Stewart: Yeah. And he had to put it on a pole. But, yeah, of course when the war started and everything, they listened to a lot of news, you know. But you only got to listen to that and Fibber McGee and Molly, and I think one other, and that was about all you got to listen to. But that was probably the length of the battery, I don’t know. Anyway. Yeah. Franklin: That’s really-- 0:15:11 Stewart: My family were really musical. My brother played the trumpet, and from the time he was, I don’t know, in grade school, I guess. I need to back up. We went to school at Vernita. Do you know where that was? Franklin: Yeah, down, right kind of where the bridge is today. Stewart: Down the hill. And actually I have a picture of the school. But anyway, that’s where I went. And then they went on down to White Bluffs to high school. And I went, let’s see, three-- Franklin: How far was that? Stewart: Six miles. Franklin: And how did you get there each day? Stewart: Well, they had a school bus. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: At one time, there was several kids. I don’t remember just how many, probably four or five of us went from there down to Vernita to this school. Well, on the first three grades, the first year, there was about eight or ten of us, one teacher. The next year, some of the kids had left and they’d gone to high school or moved. So there was like five, I think. The next year, there was two boys and I in the whole school the whole year, in the third grade. [LAUGHTER] That was a disaster! Anyway, then for two years, we went with the high school kids to White Bluffs on the bus. And the old—it was like wooden sides, and the dust would just boil in. Do you remember that, Raymond? Oh! It was awful. Franklin: It would shake—was it-- Stewart: Oh, yeah, it would shake, you know? Franklin: Was it basically just kind of like a converted truck? Stewart: No. It was solid sides with windows. Franklin: Oh, okay. Stewart: But there was—the dust just would—anyway, I went two years to White Bluffs. And then two more years, more kids started moving in because of the Midway substation that Bonneville was building. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Stewart: And so there was more kids. Well then the eighth grade, they took the seventh and eighth grade with the high school kids clear to Hanford that last year. And that was 1943 when I graduated eighth. They closed it the fifth of May. I can remember that. Franklin: Wow. Yeah. Oh, speaking of that, I wanted to ask, what were your memories of the eviction or the evacuation, getting, maybe getting the notice, what do you remember about that time? 0:17:54 Stewart: Oh, it was a real shock. A real shock. But I want to tell you one thing. We didn’t do very good, but Dad was very patriotic. Because he’d been in World War I, and he knew we had to do something. They had to do something. I can remember that. But, yeah, it was really hard. We had a really beautiful place, and they did really well with what we had. Yeah, Dad didn’t have—he wasn’t—it bothered him—he knew it had to be done. Some people just kept that hatred in them all their years. They never got over it. Franklin: No, they didn’t. No, we’ve interviewed some people who were still-- Stewart: Bitter. Franklin: --angry at DuPont all these years later Stewart: Well, Dad went to work—when he couldn’t irrigate, he still grazed the sheep on it, didn’t they? Do you remember that, Raymond? Martinez: What’s that? Stewart: Oh, Dad grazing the sheep on our hayfields. Do you remember that? Martinez: No. Stewart: Anyway, but he was a Pinkerton guard for the Bonneville power. Franklin: Oh, really? 0:19:04 Stewart: And we got to stay at Cold Crick till October. However, they took the high school kids to Sunnyside that year, and I started high school in Sunnyside for—I was only there a couple months, I think. But that was always—and dirt, talk about dust. Franklin: Wow, yeah, that is a ways. Stewart: And it was just in on all—no grass, it was all gravel. Franklin: Right, jeez. So you said you got to stay until October. That was October 1943? Stewart: Mm-hmm. Franklin: You got--oh, wow. Yeah, that’s pretty-- Stewart: And he was sent to Spokane to two different substations up there he was over. And then we moved to Spokane then and bought a little place up there. And I graduated from high school, Rodgers. And I went two-and-a-half years to WSU then. Franklin: Okay, okay. Stewart: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Tell me a little more about Cold Creek-- Stewart: Cold Crick. Franklin: Cold Crick, sorry. What kind of community was it? Did it have services, or was it just-- Stewart: No. Franklin: --kind of a gathering of-- Stewart: No, no. Franklin: --people? 0:020:08 Stewart: There was a little gas station at the bottom of the hill before you would cross the crick there. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: But, no there wasn’t any services, no grocery store. I might mention this: we used to be--maybe you have it down in your thing--used to be a stage come clear from Kennewick. They would bring the mail up. I think to Hanford, White Bluffs and all up to us. And then if we needed something, he’d always stop at the Reiersons’ grocery store at White Bluffs. If we needed something, we could call down there, and they’d bring it up with the mail and everything. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Yeah. and the people they’d tell you if they had to go from Kennewick to White Bluffs, they would come on the stage. Franklin: Wow, okay. Stewart: I just wondered if you’d ever heard about that. Franklin: No, I haven’t. That’s really interesting. You mentioned you did not have electricity, but did you have phone? Stewart: Yes, we had phones. It was--yeah. Franklin: Okay, interesting. Stewart: You rang two shorts or two longs. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Yeah, if your phone rang, everybody who lifted up could hear what you were saying. [LAUGHTER] Yes. Franklin: So you had traveled to White Bluffs for school. Did you also travel there to go to do all your shopping as well? 0:21:27 Stewart: Well, what shopping we did. We had always--my folks always raised a big garden. We had a lot of garden. We had a small orchard of our own. We raised fruit trees. And the one I hated the worst was the pie cherries. My brother and I always had to pick those pie cherries. We just picked the cherries right off the tree, leave the seeds on the tree. [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah. And Mom did a lot of canning. My folks canned. And Dad butchered; he was a good butcher. And so your basic things that you needed were like sugar and flour and those type of things. So you didn’t go to the grocery store very often. Franklin: Right, right. But to get like clothes and other-- Stewart: Well, yeah. We would go to Yakima about twice a year. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: And probably--you know, I’m trying to remember whether you went to--maybe he went to Sunnyside for parts. I think Dad did; we did go there some too. But, yeah, we would get--and then we used to use Sears and Roebuck. We ordered-- Franklin: Oh, right. What was social life like-- Stewart: Oh, my gosh. Franklin: --for you for your parents? Did you go to White Bluffs or Hanford often to go to movies? 0:22:45 Stewart: Well, we didn’t need to; we had such a community. Wonderful community. I have pictures of--we had a woman’s group. My God, I got whole lots of pictures of them. And it was called a Priest Rapids Ladies’—I can’t think of the ladies’ club. But it went clear from up Priest Rapids clear almost down to Riverland. Down to Allard. Allard’s. Franklin: To the Bruggemanns’ and then the Allards’. Stewart: Uh-huh. Yeah. Mr. Bruggemann’s picture’s in here. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Yeah, they had--we had a real good--and my dad was on the school board. He always helped with that. We had a small school. And something that I always have remembered, you know, in those days, you didn’t have oranges or things like that. And the big thing every year, we always had a play at Christmastime for the little school, and we always had Christmas baskets. And they always got oranges, those kids could hardly wait to get that orange. And now the kids don’t think a thing about--you know? Franklin: No, no. Stewart: And a little bit of candy, a candy cane, and I don’t remember. An apple, I suppose we had apples in them. I don’t remember that part. But I do remember they used to go down along the river and get a juniper for Christmas trees for the school. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] 0:24:06 Stewart: The other thing I remember, and it was always in my mind--I was just a little girl. They had candles on those trees. Burning candles. At the school! Franklin: Wow. That sounds like a serious fire hazard. Stewart: Yeah, but now, my God, it would--[LAUGHTER] This was the school. Franklin: That’s really cool. And this was where? Stewart: That was Vernita. Franklin: Oh, Vernita School. Stewart: I have the only picture of it. Franklin: Would we be able to-- Stewart: Yes! Franklin: --take some of these and scan them and send them back to you? Stewart: Yes. Yes, you can. Franklin: Oh, that’d be wonderful. Stewart: Go through these things, because I’ve got some really good ones. Franklin: No, it sounds like you have some great photos there. 0:24:40 Stewart: But anyway, I can remember—but we always had school plays. Even if there was like only four of us kids in the school. That was always the big thing, in the fall we’d have--I don’t remember anything at Thanksgiving. I think we used to have—we had a potluck. We had a lot of potlucks. The ladies’ club would have potlucks. And they used to have social dancing. My aunt played the piano. My two uncles, one played the saxophone and the other clarinet. And my brother played the trumpet. And my dad played the fiddle, and my mother and I both played the piano. So, that would be kind of our social thing, like on Sunday afternoons. We’d get to my grandparents’, up there, and play music. That was--yeah. Franklin: So, I wanted to ask you about your family for a minute. So your dad’s name is Chester. What was your mom’s name? Stewart: Clida. Ratcliffe was her last name. Franklin: Okay. Clida Ratcliffe. Stewart: Clida, mm-hmm. Franklin: Clida Ratcliffe, but McGee, I guess-- Stewart: Yeah. And Dale McGee. Franklin: Dale, your older brother. Stewart: I just have the one brother. Franklin: Just the one brother. Stewart: Yeah, and seven years older than me. Franklin: And so Yvonne is your sister-in-law. Stewart: Sister-in-law, mm-hmm. Franklin: And then your dad had brothers and sisters. You said you had an aunt and uncle? Stewart: Well, yeah. He had a full sister, Cassie, who was two years older than Dad. Franklin: And where did she live? 0:26:00 Stewart: She lived with her--well, for years she lived in California. Because she worked in a bank, I think. And then I don’t remember just when she came back to Cold Crick. Or maybe she went to Cold Crick first and then down there. I think that may be that. Because she used to do go down and work in the packing house with the—in fact, her picture’s in one of these, with those ladies that-- Franklin: Oh, really?! Stewart: Yes. Franklin: Oh! Right on. Stewart: I’m sure that’s her. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: But she was a bookkeeper. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: Also. So she was single for a long time. In fact, I met my—this should go on later. Well, anyway, how I met my husband. I went down and helped her cook for the lambing crew at Vantage. And my husband-to-be was working for them at the time. Franklin: Aw. Stewart: And she had never been married, and we dated with another fellow, and she ended up marrying him. She was in her 40s--50s. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Isn’t that interesting? Franklin: That is interesting. Stewart: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Huh. And then you also mentioned an uncle, too. 0:27:15 Stewart: Two uncles. Russ and Wynn. Brown. They were just little ones when they moved to Cold Crick, just tiny boys. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: And they lived with the Browns, then. Stewart: Yes, they did. Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Stewart: And then, I think there’s pictures of them. I ought to show you. Oh, man. Martinez: They’re in the book. Stewart: They’re in this. Martinez: They’re dressed for winter in that book. Stewart: This one. Martinez: Yeah. Stewart: I’ll [INAUDIBLE] Franklin: Really? So most of the photos for that book we got from the Edmund Anderson family. Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: Harry Anderson, as part of what they collected for the Hanford-White Bluffs Association. Stewart: Yeah, it’s the same-- Franklin: But we never--didn’t get any-- Stewart: Yeah, Wynn and Russ are in this picture. Franklin: Oh, really? Oh, that—okay! Stewart: Uh-huh. Franklin: Oh, wow. Stewart: Wynn and Russ Brown. Franklin: Oh, that’s really neat. Stewart: And then they were in the White Bluffs Band. My uncles were in that band. My brother was in the band. They used to go--there actually was the community, not just the high school, that one band. I’ve got pictures of that, too. Franklin: See, this is crazy, because you know, we got all this, but we never got this information as to who these people were. Because we just got these pictures and we never got the people to tell us who was in the pictures. Stewart: Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Franklin: Oh, yeah, that’s really neat. That’s really cool. Stewart: Yeah, Wynn and Russ were both in this picture. Franklin: Wow, that’s neat. That’s good to know. Stewart: So I always saved that. I had that for a long time. Franklin: Oh, that’s really good to know. Stewart: Anyway, let’s see what else I was going to tell you. Oh, I need that. Whatever you want to ask me. I don’t think I’ll remember. Franklin: Do you remember when--you mentioned Midway. Stewart: Yes, I do. Franklin: Do you remember around when that came into the area? 0:29:00 Stewart: Yes. About 19--well, it was--they started it in about ‘41. Because I remember my brother went one year to WSU, he graduated in 1940. So that fall he went to a--the reason I remember, the next--he worked at the next summer. It was so hot. It was 116 or 117. Oh, it was hot! Down in those—I can remember him getting so sick. Franklin: Oh, that sounds awful. Stewart: Oh, it was really hot. Franklin: That sounds really--especially before-- Stewart: And no air conditioning. Franklin: No, of course not. Stewart: You didn’t have that. We just went swimming a lot. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Were there a lot of families that came with the substation, or was it--did it-- 0:29:42 Stewart: Well, I can remember of only--yeah, there was a few. And then they built houses for them later, see? The one family had three girls, and they kind of helped getting our school back going. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Stewart: Yeah, and the one girl was in my class. I don’t remember a whole—there was some older children that went on to White Bluffs, I remember that. But mostly there were just men that started working there and then didn’t bring the family. Well, there wasn’t any place for them to live. Franklin: Right. Was that pretty exciting to have the dams come up and the electricity come through the—did you maybe start to get the sense that things were going to change a bit? Stewart: Well, I think I did. I think I did. But it was so many changes so fast. And I remember, when we moved to Spokane, we probably only had—we lived in that same place. We probably only had one old truck, and probably made two trips. One with this piano, of course. Franklin: Of course. Stewart: But what I’m saying is now, look at everything everybody has. If I moved out of here--[LAUGHTER] Oh, God. You know, people don’t think about that. Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Stewart: And I’ve lived in this house 66 years, you guys. Franklin: Wow. Wow. Stewart: So I’m one of the old-timers here. Franklin: Yeah. Wow, that’s really cool. So, oh, shoot. What was I going to--what was my next question? Oh! So, there were a lot of social life in Cold Creek. Stewart: Yes. Franklin: But you did go to White Bluffs for-- 0:31:16 Stewart: Yes, we did, and Dad was very active in the American Legion, and they used to have like dances and things. And then when my brother was in high school, of course we went to the basketball games. They’d have basketball and softball. Franklin: Do you remember when the schools burned down? Stewart: Yes, I do-- Franklin: The White Bluffs-- Stewart: --remember that day. I was taking piano lessons. I was in fourth grade. And we had just started—Mom had come and got me, and we were just headed back out to go home and we saw the fire. We saw it. Yeah. I remember that real plain. Franklin: Okay. Were you talking--White Bluffs or-- Stewart: The White Bluffs High School. Franklin: --because I know both schools burned down at one point or another and then were rebuilt. But it was White Bluffs is the one that you remember? Stewart: White Bluffs, and they didn’t rebuild. No, that was just right before it was-- Franklin: Right, right. We have some photos of that, yeah. A big blaze. Okay. And what about for church? Where did you go-- 0:32:17 Stewart: Well, we really didn’t go--we were too far. I would go with a friend or so. But we didn’t have any churches at Cold Crick or Vernita. There wasn’t anything. They didn’t have anything. Franklin: And Vernita at that time was still the ferry. Stewart: They had a cable ferry, and if you don’t think that wasn’t scary--that would drift across—I remember going across—my dad was so entrenched on building the Grand Coulee Dam. He was really interested in it. And Mom’s sister was running a motel in Coulee City. So about once a year, we’d make a trip up to Grand Coulee. Which was a really quite a trip in those days. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Stewart: And when you went across that ferry, it would drift way down and go up, and it was real sandy. We always had a shovel. We always had extra water and gas with us, and probably usually got stuck at least once. Well, we’d go up as far as Coulee City and stay all night with my aunt at the motel. And then the next day we’d make the trip clear in to see the dam and come back. I can remember where the water is now on Biggs Lake, all the farms that were between there. And I remember Dad saying, these people are going to have to move, and that’s just kind of like we were when we were little. I can remember that, just as plain. I wasn’t that old, but anyway. Yeah, I can remember that. Franklin: Right. That’s kind of ironic, isn’t it? You know, like going up and kind of—and not thinking that would-- Stewart: It could happen to you. Franklin: Yeah. Stewart: Yeah. But I can remember that just as plain, yeah. Franklin: That’s really neat. Were there any—I know you were just a kid for a lot of the time as you lived there, but were there any like bad or hard times when you were living there? Any memories that stick to you in that vein? 0:34:09 Stewart: You know, I don’t really remember because I think we were fairly well--you know, Dad didn’t have to pay for any water. And electricity. And he had cows—you had horses, so you didn’t have to buy gas. You think—we probably were pretty well sufficient. My mother was really a good cook, too. We usually had hired help. She had a gas lawnmower—I mean, a gas washer, and we washed out in the yard and then hung everything up. That was just the way you did it in those days. And she canned a lot, and we had a cellar. And Dad had it all fixed up with shelves for the fruit, you know. And like, for your potatoes—well, we ended up building a potato shed, Dad did, and sorted our own spuds in the later years there. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Uh-huh. Franklin: Do you remember—did you know the Bruggemann family at all? Stewart: I did. I did. They weren’t very—they really weren’t very social. She was more so than him. Franklin: Oh, Paul was pretty-- Stewart: Yeah. I can remember them. And the kids were just little. Franklin: Right. Yes, they were, yeah. They were three and five I think when the eviction happened. And what about Allard? Did you know Sam Allard? Stewart: I don’t remember him, but I remember the name. But I knew people that lived on there, the Austins. And I-- Franklin: Right, Levi Austin. 0:35:43 Stewart: Levi Austin and--oh, shoot, what was their name? I can kind of remember those other people. At Vernita, there was about five orchards. Five or six soft fruit orchards. They weren’t very big. Because I think part of them, just irrigated from a well, like a pump. Because they had electricity at Vernita. And then part of them pumped it out of the river, I think. I think Richmond—Richmond was one name, and they had the ferry. Richmonds was their name, Tom Richmond. Franklin: Okay. Did you ever go all the way down to Richland at all or to the Tri-Cities? Stewart: Yes, we did, because Dad and Mom still had friends that lived down there. We used to go down and visit them. Yes, we did. But I don’t remember much. There wasn’t much at Richland. White Bluffs was bigger than Richland. Franklin: Right, right. I wanted to ask you about—so you were—the eviction happens and eventually you leave in October and you moved up to-- Stewart: Spokane. Franklin: Spokane. When did you start going to the reunions? 0:37:00 Stewart: You know, they’ve never mentioned anything in these books about it, but right after the war, they had picnics at Prosser. Franklin: In Prosser, yeah. Stewart: Yes. And we went to several of those. So my old friends that I went to school with, I can remember that. Franklin: And how long did you go to those for? Do you remember, how many years? Stewart: Well, it seemed like only a couple of years, and then of course I went off to college and I didn’t—we didn’t go—I don’t remember how long they had the ones at Prosser. Not very long, I don’t think. Franklin: No, yeah, we didn’t include much about it in the book, because we didn’t—the information we had about them really comes from 1968 on when they started meeting in Richland. Stewart: Yeah. And then we used to go to all those. We went to them all. Franklin: You went to all of those? Stewart: Yeah, most of them, yeah. Franklin: Were you able—have you been able to go back to the homestead since the Hanford Site-- 0:27:54 Stewart: Yeah, there’s nothing there. [LAUGHTER] Yes, I have! [LAUGHTER] But, yeah, our old spud shed was the only thing that was left there. There was nothing, you know. You knew they took our water and piped it 18 miles to the first reactor. Franklin: Yeah, I’ve heard that, yeah. Stewart: That was our well. Franklin: Yeah, that’s amazing. I mean, it was a gusher. Stewart: Ah, I’ll just show you a picture. Well, whenever you want. Go ahead. Franklin: Sure. Stewart: Go ahead and ask me. Yeah, we did, we used to have lots of social things, you know, like potlucks in the summertime. At least once or twice at different people’s places. Yeah, we never did--you know, we weren’t lacking for social things. Franklin: Oh, sure. Stewart: Raymond, what were you going to say? Martinez: Can I say something off the record? Franklin: Sure. Yeah, let’s take a little pause. Hungate: Sure. [VIDEO CUTS] Franklin: So you sorted-- Stewart: Apricots-- Franklin: There was a packing shed down by the-- Stewart: At Riverland, yeah. Martinez: When you go down the hill, before you get to the bridge, there’s kind of a dip, the railroad went through there. Stewart: It’s right there. Martinez: You can see where the railroad track was. Stewart: Right there, right there. Martinez: There was a packing shed right there on the railroad track. And then the livestock corral was right next to it where they’d load the sheep to go to Montana or wherever. Stewart: Cattle. Oh, yeah. Franklin: So, and Riverlands was kind of the stop for Bruggemann’s, because Bruggemann’s was the Riverlands Ranch. Martinez: Yeah. Franklin: Right? Is that correct? Stewart: Yeah. Franklin: okay. Martinez: The packing warehouse is right practically on the Bruggemann ranch. Stewart: Yeah, practically on there. Right there. Franklin: And you worked there when you were 13? Stewart: 13 years old. Right when the war started. Martinez: Everybody worked there. Stewart: Everybody worked there! Franklin: Everybody worked there. [LAUGHTER] Martinez: No child labor laws then! Stewart: No, there sure wasn’t! Franklin: You know, I grew up on a farm as well, and there’s always-- Stewart: Did you? Franklin: Yes. Stewart: Where was that at? Franklin: In Alaska. Stewart: Oh, my gosh. Franklin: Yeah, a farm/nursery. Martinez: Well, Salvini was a pretty noted family down there. Stewart: Yes, they were. I remember them. Franklin: Salvini, okay. Stewart: Salvini. I don’t know if it was a-- Martinez: They moved to Sunnyside. Stewart: Oh, did they? Martinez: Yeah. Stewart: I knew the Killian girls really well because Maria and Sylvia were in my class. Martinez: You got that picture with the flume and the sheep and the horses in your book to show them? Two horses and all the-- Stewart: Yeah. Here’s the picture of the well in our can right there. In fact, you can have one of those, because that’s… Here’s the band. [LAUGHTER] Okay, which one are you talking about? Franklin: Oh, yeah, this, yes, I’ve seen this. Martinez: The one with the horses and the hay wagon and the--where the sheep are right behind him. Stewart: Can you see that? Martinez: It was one of your team of horses they used in the wintertime. Franklin: Oh, wow. Martinez: I know you had it; you had it last time I was here. Franklin: Tom, did you have any questions? Anything that came to your mind that you wanted to ask? Martinez: They built a-- 0:40:56 Hungate: When they were asked to move. Why? Franklin: Why--? Martinez: They built that wooden flume. Hungate: What did they speculate-- Franklin: Oh! Hungate: --was the reason they had to move? Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, good. Hungate: Something for the war, but what? Because you can’t help but think, what is it? Martinez: They built a wooden flume for the well that went about three miles over toward the bluff. Hungate: And the mail came from Kennewick. Stewart: Right. Hungate: But you didn’t go shopping there-- Stewart: Not much. Hungate: You went to Yakima. Stewart: Well, not very much. We didn’t hardly go there very much. Hungate: But you said a couple times. Stewart: Yeah. Hungate: I mean, you didn’t go to the Tri-City area-- Stewart: Not very often; only to visit. Hungate: And that would seem to be closer? Stewart: Well, it probably was. Hungate: Maybe about halfway. Stewart: But my folks had friends in Kennewick; we’d go visit. That’s the only thing I can remember. Franklin: Yeah. Hungate: Yeah. 0:41:47 Stewart: Now, here’s something you might be interested in. This was in 1917, the first--my grandfather and another fellow dug a well. And it was only good probably part of the year when the water was running it. See what it was—yeah, isn’t that interesting? Franklin: I like this picture of the well and the guy standing next to it. Hungate: Oh, god. Franklin: That’s pretty neat. Wow. This one with the guy standing next to it. Stewart: Oh, yeah. Hungate: It’s a geyser! Franklin: Yeah, it’s a real gusher. Stewart: Now, this is my grand--is that the same? That isn’t the same one. Hungate: No. Franklin: No, it’s not. Stewart: Okay. This is my grandmother’s well. Look at that. Franklin: The Brown well. Oh, yeah, wow. Stewart: And when they hit that, they didn’t know how to cap it. Martinez: Cap it, yeah. Stewart: Oh, it ran on down; it just went way down in the crick, and they had a heck of a time trying to—yeah. Franklin: Phew, it’s just so—I mean, seeing this well in the treeless--you know. Stewart: Isn’t that something? Franklin: Yeah, it really is something. Stewart: Now here’s another picture of the White Bluffs band. My brother was in it. Franklin: Oh, wow. Hungate: Oh, wow. Franklin: Oh, yeah, there’s that--your brother in Pullman. That thing is still--that’s right outside of the Murrow Building. It’s right outside--it’s right by the old women’s dorm. I know right where this is. Because I’ve been there, like, many times. Hungate: Oh, the memorial? Franklin: Yeah, the little-- Hungate: The veterans’ memorial ting? Franklin: Yes, that’s where it is now. It didn’t always be that, but there it is on the campus. Smart-looking guy. Stewart: Where did you live in Pullman? Franklin: Oh, so I did my master’s in Pullman. Stewart: Oh, you did? Franklin: So I lived in Pullman, and then Tom lived in Pullman for quite a while. Stewart: Okay. Franklin: Yeah. And you said you went to school-- 0:43:36 Stewart: I went to Pullman, yeah. The first year I went, it was--I graduated in ‘47, that fall, and they had just built these dorms for the women and then there was 400 girls, freshman girls and there was 1300 boys. That’s when everyone came home. It was Quonset huts or whatever it is they were. Franklin: Yes. Stewart: You remember that? Well, you probably don’t remember that. Franklin: I did a lot of university history, and I remember the photos, because after the war, they struggled to find places to put all these new students that they had given the GI Bill. Stewart: Well, then the next two years, I was up on the campus at Davis Hall. Up on the-- Hungate: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Yup. Still there. Hungate: Still there. Franklin: Still there. Stewart: I’m sure it is! [LAUGHTER] I didn’t graduate—I didn’t finish, but I got to go for two-and-a-half years. Martinez: Shirley, Shirley, let me see your photos. I’ll find the picture. Franklin: So, Shirley, I had a couple more questions. Stewart: Here. Martinez: Just a minute. Franklin: Okay. Stewart: I don’t know where I put it. Franklin: Oh, I’m sure we have it. When you got the notice to move, I imagine that it must’ve been shocking. Stewart: Terrible shock. Franklin: But I also imagine people must’ve been speculating why. You know, why would they move all these--so do you remember anything about that time? 0:45:00 Stewart: Well, I remember, it was just such a shock, I remember that. And I can remember my mom said, Chester, what are we going to do? I can remember Mama saying that. That was the—what were we gonna do? But Dad never got--I said, and my brother mentions in his book that he was so—he felt that we needed to do something. Franklin: Right, he was very patriotic. Stewart: Very, very, very. Franklin: Did people--did you have-- Stewart: Some of them weren’t. Franklin: Did you ever wonder kind of what was going to happen to all this farmland? Stewart: Oh, yeah! Franklin: Why would the government take it? Stewart: How can they take it with all that fruit hanging on the trees? Franklin: Right. 0:45:45 Stewart: I don’t remember very much about Vernita, those people saying much. I don’t remember. And I don’t think Dad let us hear anybody’s really having a big fit over anything. We knew some of them did, though. I can remember a family or two. Franklin: Do you remember when you found out what—why it was taken? Do you remember when you found out about the dropping of the bomb and that-- Stewart: Oh. We felt-- Franklin: --had happened now at Hanford. Stewart: Then we felt like we had done the right thing. To be real honest with you. That’s the way Dad talked. And whatever he gave up, he felt that it saved all of us. That’s the way my family were. Franklin: Sure. I imagine that must’ve been-- Stewart: And of course my brother was in the service, you know? Franklin: Yeah, yeah. I imagine that must’ve been a big shock, too, right? Stewart: Oh, it was! Franklin: That that had happened in what had been your home. 0:46:41 Stewart: Yeah. And to think of leaving it. That was hard, yeah. But anyway, with Dad—and then after the war, of course, Dad didn’t—they didn’t need the guards anymore. So he decided—he knew he wanted to locate back in the Basin. But he didn’t want to start another farm, because that was--so he suited an old pickup and sold auto parts. There were jobbers in those days. So he got an idea of maybe he could find a place that he’d like to take over. And that’s what he did. He found a place in Stratford, and it was a little grocery store and service station. And he just loved that. He did. It was kind of a, everybody would come in and have coffee in the morning and that type of thing. They were putting in the Long Lake Dam and the canals just when Dad first bought that. So he had all these workers in there for a number of years, which worked really good—he did really well. Franklin: Where was this again? Stewart: Stratford. Out of Moses Lake, straight north from Moses Lake. There’s Stratford Road that goes just out of Soap Lake. You know where Soap Lake is? Franklin: Kind of. I think you probably know that area a lot better, Tom. Stewart: In Ephrata. Hungate: Near Ephrata. Stewart: Ephrata. Franklin: Tom was based in Wenatchee for a long time. Stewart: Yeah, so Ephrata, yeah. Franklin: Okay, interesting. So is that where he and your mom settled, out there? Stewart: Yeah. That’s where we settled, and they had it for about 20 years. My mother passed away--he was there about five or six years after Mom died. Anyway, yeah. And he really—and then later, there was a lot of hunting and fishing, so then he sold a lot of fishing and shells and stuff, you know, and lunch, mostly lunch-type things. So that worked really good for him, people hunting and they’d come in there. Franklin: Yeah. And your brother was in the service in the war. Stewart: Yes. Franklin: When did leave for the war? And was he in the service when you were evicted? Stewart: No. Franklin: Okay. 0:49:00 Stewart: No. He was, I think--let’s see--graduated--’40. He graduated in 1940. He was in college. Franklin: Oh, okay, so he was in Pullman. Stewart: Let me see. He was at Pullman. Franklin: How did he take the news--how did he-- Stewart: Well-- Franklin: When you got the notice, how did he-- Stewart: I just don’t remember. I don’t’ remember. But I do know that then he got in the B12 training his second year at WSU. And then that summer he was sent back east to finish getting his—in the Navy. And he was a lieutenant. Franklin: And what did he do after the war? Now that he kind of couldn’t come back. Stewart: Oh. He came back to Pullman and finished and got his degree in agronomy. Franklin: Okay, that’s right, you mentioned that. 0:49:45 Stewart: And he worked about three or four years in Colfax. They lived in Colfax. And then he got a really good job out of Vancouver, and he was there for a number of years, eleven years I think. And then he was sent to Silverton, Oregon, and then finally ended up the head guy out of Salem, Oregon, the head guy, yeah. He did that all those years. Franklin: And then you eventually came here to where we are. You said you’ve been here 66 years. Stewart: Yeah, uh-huh. [LAUGHTER] Yeah! Yeah. My husband was a cowboy. Franklin: Yeah? Stewart: And my kids are cowboys. [LAUGHTER] I have one grandson that was in the national finals twice. Franklin: Wow. Stewart: Yeah, and he’s team roper. That was in ‘99. And then 2000--let’s see, ’98 and ‘99 and 2000 he went to the national finals in team roping. Well, then after that, he got hurt. [VIDEO FILE CORRUPTED] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Shirley Stewart Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) White Bluffs (Wash.) Description An account of the resource Shirley Stewart's father, Chester McGee, settled in the Cold Creek area and drilled the last, and one of the largest, artesian wells on the central plateau. Shirley grew up on the McGee homestead and attended school in White Bluffs. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1/17/2020 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource English Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operated under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who were the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9b9a473b596f5a77ab1eca9de21bcbc7.jpg a47fef2418adfc10000ab94ad0f2ef61 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F1c8d5add285c766719f8e3d9016ca78c.mp4 de64b4641f2df7bcd6977637f9220e2f Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O' Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stanley Goldsmith Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Douglas O’Reagan: First of all, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Stanley Goldsmith: Stanley Goldsmith. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Okay, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Goldsmith here on March 21st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Goldsmith about his experiences working at Hanford. Okay. Could you tell us about your childhood up through—just briefly tell us about your life up through college and entering the Manhattan Project. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: At Hanford here, or at Los Alamos? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Before that. Your life before the Manhattan Project. Where were you born? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Virginia. Norfolk, Virginia. In 19—March 25th, 1924. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Can you tell us about your life before the Manhattan Project? Up through college? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well I— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Why don’t I move closer, that might— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: I was raised in Norfolk and went to Virginia Tech to take—to get a chemical engineering degree. I entered Virginia Tech in 1941, and I graduated in 1945. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: And then you entered the Army, is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: After graduation, I was drafted into the Army, and assigned to the Manhattan District of Engineers. Eventually, after waiting in several different places for my clearance, I wound up at Los Alamos, where I worked from 1945 to ’47—1947. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Did you just find out about what the goal was once you arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Yes. After I got to Los Alamos, we were told what the objective was, and all about the problems. This was different than the other nuclear sites were. This mission was kept secret. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: What element of the project did you work on at Los Alamos? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: At Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: At Los Alamos. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: At Los—I worked on processing the uranium-235 for the first atomic bomb. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: What did that involve? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: That involved converting uranium oxide that had been enriched with 235. That involved processing it from an oxide to a fluoride so it could be reduced to a metal. And then machined into the shapes they needed for the bombs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Were you figuring out your process as you went? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: No. The process had been pretty well established. This was more like just individual laboratories processing individual amounts of u-235 to get it to the point where it could be reduced to metal. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Who did you work with? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Did you work with anybody? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Who else was in your lab? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: That was a long time ago. Let’s see. There was Al Drumrose and a Purcell—I don’t remember his first name. There were two other—well, maybe a few other more people. But I guess I just don’t recall the names. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: So what brought you to Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: What got me to Hanford? I left Los Alamos to get a graduate degree in chemical engineering. When I graduated, I got a job here at Hanford as a nuclear—as a reactor engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: How did you hear about the job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, I knew about Hanford, and I sent out letters of inquiry about positions that may be open here and at other sites. And I got the position here in 1950. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: So you wanted specifically to work at Hanford or other sites—what was—did you have specific goals of what you wanted to do? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, I liked what Hanford had to offer. So there was no question about that. They satisfied what I was looking for. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: What were your first impressions of the area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, it was shocking to say the least. It was like out in the wilderness. And when I arrived in 1950, General Electric operated the whole site, including the housing and all of the utilities and so forth. They assigned me a house that—I don’t remember what the rent was, but it was very inexpensive. And then in 1960—let’s see, it was about 1960—between ’61 and ’65—they divided the work at Hanford among several—among four or five contractors. One of them operated the laboratory, one of them operated the nuclear reactor, and one the separations plant. I stayed with the laboratory. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Could you walk us through an average day when you first—say in 1950 or ’52—what sort of work were you doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: What sort of work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: The average day—you want me to start back there?—is that my worksite was located about 20 miles from Richland. You could take a bus operated by the plant, or you could drive. But you had to go through an entrance gate—entrance—not a gate, but a station. And then we had to show our passes—badges. Then we went out to the site where we were working. In this case, at that time, I was working at F Reactor. As a reactor engineer, I rotated positions at the different reactors. So the work was—you asked me about the work—the work was, I thought, extremely interesting. And I felt very fortunate in that I felt like I was on the forefront of a new technology. By the time I got up here, there was a lot of emphasis on the peaceful use of nuclear power. I got involved in work for improving the nuclear fuels that was currently being used. This was because I was with Battelle then, and Battelle had a joint contract with the DoE where they could use part of their facilities—well, the major part of the facilities were for DoE work. But they also had a contract which they called 1831, and that was for doing private work for industrial corporations involved in nuclear work. I spent a lot of time on that, trying to—my group was trying to improve the performance of the fuel. Wanted to get higher powers. So that the fuel—we could produce fuel at a faster rate—I’m sorry, produce plutonium at a faster rate by increasing the power of the reactors. I worked as a reactor engineer for about four years. Then I took the position of manager of nuclear fuels research and development. We worked on developing or designing nuclear fuels, analyzing the fuels that had been used in the reactors to see what improvements could be made. Let’s see. We had a lot of interactions with the commercial fuel designers. As I mentioned, there were two contract billers. And this was done on the 1831, which allowed Battelle to use some facilities that were DoE’s—some facilities on the plant in their private work. So I’m trying to think about the timing, now. The main—after working on DoE projects for about five years, I worked on a private project that was sponsored—that was funded by Exxon—they’re now called Exxon Nuclear. They were interested in getting into the nuclear business, because they had a lot of claims on land that have uranium. They wanted—they decided to utilize those claims. Get the uranium, then processing it for use as nuclear fuels. So at that time, I think there was only one Exxon employee involved in this. They took over part—a major part of that, as Exxon Nuclear—took over a major part of Battelle. We were moved out of the buildings that DoE built, and we were located in Uptown in Richland in the industrial—just completely isolated from the other nuclear work that was going on. We designed a nuclear fuel for Exxon Nuclear which evolved into their first commercial fuels. During that time, Exxon Nuclear began to have their own staff. But we stayed with them until about 19—early 1970s, we worked with them. And then their own employees could take over from then. After that, I worked on fuel cycles. On seeing if we could design different types of fuels with different types of materials, like thorium, on the fuel cycles. And we—let’s see. This was work for DoE. And we continued that work—my group continued working for DoE. They were working on the nuclear reactor regulation, on NRC. We had projects with NRC. Our main project was DoE. And here again, I was telling you--[COUGH] Excuse me. I was still involved in nuclear fuel development. We did a lot of work for NRC and also for DoE. This was on helping them understand and approve their review of new nuclear fuels in reactors—nuclear fuel design. So we were working on both sides of the street: with the regulatory side, and the DoE development side. And then in 1980—excuse me just one minute—I should have jotted these dates down. In late 1980s, I worked on a DoE program on nuclear fuels—on nuclear fuel cycles, where we were looking at different way of utilizing the nuclear fuels so that they would last longer and that they would be safer. Then after that, I was assigned to Battelle Columbus, because I had worked through this project. It turned out quite successful. And Battelle Columbus had a contract with DoE to perform research on finding a nuclear repository—nuclear burial site. I was the Battelle manager of that program for about four years. We looked at the—examined the potential nuclear sites in New Mexico, Louisiana, Georgia, and here at Hanford. This program went on for about four or five years, and then DoE selected the Nevada site at Los Alamos—not Los Alamos—at Las Vegas for the site to bury the spent nuclear fuels. That program lasted for quite a while, but I left it in 19—after four years, because I didn’t want to move down to Texas, which was one of the sites that was being considered. So I moved back here to the Hanford. I worked on miscellaneous programs after I came back to Hanford. A lot of them had to do with the nuclear fuel cycle and the nuclear waste disposal—nuclear waste treatment and disposal. And I did that type of work for about four years, and then I retired in 1987? 19—yes, in 1987. And I left Battelle, and went to work for an environmental engineering company in Washington, DC, who was working on the same sort of thing. They were technical support contracted to DoE headquarters. So I was there until—let’s see. I was there until about 1994. And then I had to just—I still continued to work even though I was retired from Battelle. I had actually moved back to Battelle and was hired by Battelle as a consultant so that I could retain my pension and the salary for the job. That went on until about 1992. And finally, I retired for good. [LAUGHTER] So, that’s a very brief and sketchy description of what I did here at Hanford. One thing that—a little sideline you might be interested in. You asked about what Hanford was like. When I first came to work here, there were very few facilities that could be used at Hanford. I was not—I didn’t need anything special to do my work; I didn’t need a specially designed building structure. But I did do work on design and that work was done—the group was assigned to the Hanford High School. [LAUGHTER] Let’s see, where else? As I said, I had worked at most of the reactors that were operating at that time. Oh, there’s one thing that—I want to back up a little bit until about 1975. I got in—my group got involved in plutonium recycle. This was a program that DoE sponsored, a fairly large program, in which we were trying to recycle the plutonium that was not being used in bombs. Plutonium—to show that it could be used in nuclear power reactors. And we actually had a plutonium recycle test reactor built here onsite to test the fuels, the mixed oxide. We called it mixed oxide fuel because it’s plutonium and uranium oxide. And the reactor, which was the PRTR, Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor, was designed specifically to try to test, get information on mixed oxide fuels. Let’s see. I moved around a lot. After about five years on that program, I moved on, I think, to working for Exxon Nuclear, to assist them in their program. Now, Exxon Nuclear was so sensitive about their work being exposed by DoE that they moved many of the facilities that they used at Battelle, they moved them to different sections. We had offices at the old—what was it—the woman who had all of this fabric stuff? It was in Richland, it’s right in downtown Richland. And we took the top floor of one of the buildings that had already been built. And of course, there, we only did calculations because they had no facilities for taking care of irradiated material. That was an interesting time, too, when we were off on our own, so to speak. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: They did that because they were afraid of the Department of Energy taking their knowledge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, they were concerned there would be some link—crossover—inadvertently, perhaps. The DoE could claim that some of the work done by Exxon Nuclear was done by DoE. And they didn’t want that to happen, so they completely isolated themselves. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Did that hurt your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Did that work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Did it impact your work, being isolated like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: I’m sorry? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Being isolated, did that impact your work? Did it slow your work, or did it cause any problems? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: No, it didn’t cause any problems. We were able to move our whole group out into the new facility in downtown Richland. So were other groups—nuclear physics group, and the other groups that went into the fuel cycle. But that was an interesting time, because we were really developing commercial nuclear fuels. The design that we had come up with was the first nuclear fuels that Exxon Nuclear had marketed. They marketed to—I’ll think of that in a minute. But anyway, we got involved in—since I mentioned earlier that there were very few Exxon Nuclear employees involved in this program—that we actually got involved with the Exxon Nuclear people who went out to market their product. That was at the time when we ran into some very interesting commercial situations. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: What makes one nuclear fuel better than another nuclear fuel? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, they were made primarily from uranium, and they were oxides. They were made into compressed pellets. Now, some of these were different—some of these were specifically made for boiling-water reactors, and others were for pressurized-water reactors. There was a design difference in the two reactors. One of them—the power level was about the same, but the design of the fuel and the way it was structured was different. That made a difference in the fuel for the two types of reactors. After we got involved in working for Exxon Nuclear, when our contract with them expired, we became very much involved in working only for DoE and NRC. I think I mentioned that to you. We—oh, we had contracts—my group had contacts with practically all the commercial nuclear fuel design people, and we provided them design support, and we did testing for them. So we were pretty much involved in the nuclear industry by then. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: How secretive or how classified was your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: After—when I moved to Hanford, the classification was almost—was very slim. It was very lax, because with the dropping of the atom bombs, then all of that came out, what the bomb was made of, and some ideas what the design of the bomb was. So by that time, it had pretty well leaked out, the security was relaxed on that, also. So that wasn’t—that was no longer a big problem. There were still some residual problem in security. In fact, the Russians, of course, wanted to get into the nuclear industry business. They wanted to know—well, this backed up into the weapons program—Cold War program. They wanted to know what powers we read our plants at—how many megawatts. And they actually took measurements of the Columbia River and calculated from that what powers we were obtaining. So that was when the Cold War was going on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: How did you hear about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Hear about what? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: The Russians testing the waters. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Oh. I think we had—our security people kept an eye on what was going on with the Russians. And this is one of the things they found out. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Let’s see. What was life in the Tri-Cities like back in the 1950s and ‘60s outside of work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, it was pretty plain in a way—several. Because there weren’t many things to do. There was only one theater, and there may have been one or two grocery stores, and I think there was one real estate agent. That was the case with most of the various businesses. There was maybe one, or two at the most. There was not much in the way of entertainment. I mentioned that we had one theater. People—the workers at the plant—developed their own entertainment—sources of entertainment. They formed all kinds of different clubs. One of the most popular club was the bridge club—competitive bridge. We played that in one of the commercial buildings that had an open space that we could use. Another was the Richland Little Theater. And then there was a Richland opera—Light Opera, also. And there were—of course, golf was a big activity, because there were already several different golf courses. So that was taking off. There were other activities like that where you had to build them yourself. You may have gotten a little support from DoE, but you couldn’t depend on it. So we had to make our own source of entertainment and relaxation. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Did you play bridge? What was your entertainment? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Yeah, I got involved in playing bridge. This was duplicate bridge. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but that’s a form of bridge that is competitive. It’s still—it’s played in such a way that everybody—each couple gets to play against another couple, and they rotate during the evening, so that other couples play the same cards. The competitive part comes in as to who comes up with the best score at the end of the evening. [LAUGHTER] And that was quite controversial. Particularly when a man and woman were partners—they would—they had no shame, or no hesitant to getting into arguments at the bridge table. So that was a big deal. Even now there’s a lot of bridge clubs that are playing here—duplicate bridge is what it’s called. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Where did you live throughout your time at Hanford, or in this area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: What’s that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Where did you live? Did you move houses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Yes—well, yeah. At that time, they were building houses like mad. I lived in one of the government houses in Richland—old Richland. Then I moved into what they called a ranch house. Those were a government house that was one story, and it had three bedrooms. There was some furnishing that came with these houses. The rental on it was very nominal. And as I recall, we were provided—many of these houses, or most of them were heated by coal. DoE actually—at that time, it was actually GE who ran the town—provided free coal. They would come around periodically and dump a load of coal for you to use in your houses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Sounds dirty! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Huh? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Sounds dirty! Seems like it would get you messy. All the—dumping the coal, is there a coal dust that would come up? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: What’s that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: When you burned the coal, would it be dirty? Would it make a lot of smoke, I guess? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Not too bad. They must have used a hard coal that gave out less smoke. I don’t know that—it wasn’t like an industrial company where they had large facilities that generated a lot of steam, a lot of smoke. This was kind of dispersed. So we didn’t have an air problem at that time. We had—now the other thing that they did to make life easier—we had our own transportation—public transportation system. You could ride on the buses that they had for free. So that was to make life easier for the employees. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Must have been a lot of buses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: What? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Must have been a whole lot of buses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, most of the buses were actually used to go out to the Area—to take the workers out to the Area, because there’s where you had a lot of people to be transported. The civilians, or the private people, had—many of them had their own cars. So didn’t use the bus. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Was it different when you were working on commercial energy compared to when you were working for the Department of Energy? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Yes, there were quite a lot of differences. We were able to produce fuel designs and produce developmental fuels in a much shorter time than DoE, because there was a lot of paperwork involved in going through the DoE process. In fact, one of the DoE people at headquarters who was in charge of reactor development said he was very upset because he couldn’t—he was in charge of the fast reactor, the FFTF. And they were struggling to try to get the thing going. He was very upset because he couldn’t understand how we were able to get fuel for Exxon Nuclear, and they were still struggling. They’d been struggling for a long time. [LAUGHTER] So he wanted to know what we were doing. Well, what it was, we didn’t have to jump through all the loops that you did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Was it finding the uranium, the procurement that was the problem? Or just write paperwork? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: No, the problem that DoE had was that they had a bureaucracy that kind of controlled things. And that always slows things down. It took them about twice as long to develop the fuel for the Fast Flux Reactor than it did us for the commercial reactors. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Hmm. Let’s see. Have the Tri-Cities changed much in the time you’ve been living here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Oh, yeah. It’s been amazing how it’s grown. The Tri-Cities now is like a normal city. The nuclear influence is much less, because we have so many other businesses now involved for our economic base. As I had mentioned earlier, there were usually one kind or maybe two types of business or entertainment or something like that. When the commercial people came in, they opened as many stores as they wanted, or that were needed. So that was one big thing. Another big thing was the housing development, the real estate. I remember up until 19—let’s see, about 1965, GE was in charge of everything, including building houses. [COUGH] Excuse me, I’ve got a cold. When they opened up the lands, part of the land, surrounding territory was owned by the Department of the Interior—it was government owned. And then they made those available to the public for building houses and other types of structures. The demand for these things was great enough, so the building was really at a peak. Now, even now, you take a look at the housing—the amount of housing that’s going on, and take a look at the commercial businesses, like drive down George Washington Way, you see all these new businesses or restaurants or that sort of thing. So it’s really changed. Richland was all on this side of the Columbia River. That was one of the boundaries for Richland. But then the Columbia River curved around, and there were—on the other side of the river, there was nothing but sagebrush. But some entrepreneurs had bought land there, and then when they started to build, they had lots of land to build on. That was no problem. There’s a whole new part of Richland that’s on the other side of the river that wasn’t there until probably about 1965 or so. That’s when it started. So there’s been a growth of industry. The highways have been developed. There’s new industry that’s come in. So we’ve developed quite a good industrial base now, and it’s still growing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Are there any—to ask an open-ended question, are there any moments or stories that come to mind that you think are worth telling about your time working at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, I told you about how we had, early on, we had offices at the Hanford High School. That was—we made a lot of fun of that, when anyone called you at the high school, we said this is the Goldsmith class of ’41-’42. There was a lot of—amazing amount of work that was done on animals to use those as some of the basic studies for the effect of radiation on animals. Now we don’t have any of those studies going on. But let’s see. I’m trying to think of something that is unusual. A lot of it was—practically all of it was unusual. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: How about something mundane, but it’s still kind of unusual? Or maybe a day in the life later on in your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, I mentioned the general public had to develop their own recreational activities. We have—I don’t know—we have a lot of parks and fields. Like some of those baseball parks are very good. I didn’t appreciate how good they were until—I have some relatives who live in Maryland, and we visited them, and we went to see their children’s baseball game. But they had just an open field, nothing like we have. So that’s been—the recreational things have improved quite a bit. Of course the boating is still a big deal. I really—as I said, there was so much growth going on that it’s hard to pick out any one area. Excuse me. The recreational areas have increased. You know, we’ve grown more; we’ve built at least two new golf courses, and these were very good golf courses. Then the other thing is some of the building of private homes around the golf courses. That has been—we live in a community there that probably has—what would you say, Joyce, about 800 people? Something of that sort. And it’s very nice. There’s two such communities. One of them is called Canyon Lakes, where we live, and the other is called Meadow Springs. That’s been developed—highly developed. We both have very nice golf courses. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Joyce: After you retired, didn’t you work with the people from Israel, the First Defenders? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Oh, yeah, that was an interesting little program. That was after I retired, and I was re-hired. Battelle got a program from the State Department to help—to develop ways for the First Defenders on a terrorist site could make a better determination of what happened. And they did this on a worldwide basis. Mainly, underdeveloped countries, but one country that they had and they were anxious to get involved because they had firsthand information—they were anxious to get Israelis involved. Because they had a lot of first defenders. The program consisted of sending a team of people over to Israel and tell them what the program was about. And then Israel was to send about 20 people over here for a month. And then we were using the training—the HAMMER facility to do the training. I got involved because when the Israelis came over, they asked me, since I’m Jewish, they asked me if I would help trying to make them feel comfortable and so forth, take care of their dietary laws. And again, they were very pleased. And it was fun, it was interesting to see how they had become sensitized to terrorism. For instance, they stayed at one of the hotels out there. It’s right outside of Columbia Center Mall. And early morning, a bus would pick them up and take them out to the HAMMER site. After about two or three days, the bus driver said—no, someone said are we going to take any different routes? And the bus driver thought they meant for sightseeing. But they didn’t want to establish a pattern for terrorists to see what their schedule was. So they finally got him to change the route out to Hanford itself. But that was interesting, because the view of the Israelis who had been submitted to so much terrorism and the view of the other countries that we trained but who had not been submitted were completely different. Like night and day. So that was interesting experience. They show you the difference between our view of being careful about terrorism. As I said, these people were housed—excuse me. These people were housed in one of the hotels close to the Columbia Center—close to the Columbia Center Mall. They would go into the mall, and they were appalled to see that people were allowed to go in and out of the mall carrying all kinds of backpacks and all kinds of packages where it’s not being inspected. Because in Israel, they inspected anyone who was carrying a package of any sort. And they would be examined. So that was an interesting insight on how the different countries treat terrorism. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: And the training was about how to respond to a nuclear accident, or a crisis? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Well, this program was called the First Defenders. And these people were doctors, they were scientists, they were firemen and so first. They were a mixture of who would come to the site where an attack had been made. That’s why they called them the First Defenders. They—let’s see, what was I going to say? They were very—the ones that were really involved in anti-terrorism were very conscientious and good about it. We had some interesting things that arose as part of this program. As I said, there were nations from all over the world that were involved to a certain extent. And we had the Indians, from India, coming over, spending a month. They were put up in the Hanford House—Red Lion Hanford House. They got a call one day from someone at the Hanford House wanting to know if we could talk to these people about how to keep the shower curtains inside of the showers, because they would keep them out and they would flood the whole area. So there were strange incidences like that. I’m sorry, Joyce? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Joyce: About when Bill Wiley was here and you worked at Hanford Battelle in Quality Assurance. Did you share any of that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: The quality--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Joyce: Uh-huh. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: Bill Wiley was a very—I think he was very influential and left his mark on the site, because he wanted to develop this environmental molecular laboratory, the rows of buildings out there, the new rows. And that opened up a whole new set of doors for Battelle to grow. They went into more basic stuff. Up to that time, we mainly focused on working on problems with nuclear reactors and nuclear fuels. But this was completely different from that. This was basic science that these laboratories allowed us to get involved in. And it’s opened up a whole new area. I think Battelle, and Hanford in general, has benefited from it, because they get a lot of extra programs that they wouldn’t have before. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Were you involved with these basic science programs? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: No, I started in nuclear fuels and nuclear reactors most of the time I was here. But I didn’t get into any of the basic science programs. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Did you want to say anything about this Oppenheimer letter, maybe introduce it for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: He was a very nice guy, and he was very considerate, and everybody liked him. He was very friendly—friendly in a reserved way. He didn’t go around smacking people on the back, but you knew he was warm and he remembered names. After the peace was declared, I think it was that later date in 1945? No, not 1945. At any rate, after the war was over, and things settled down, he sent out a letter to some of the people who worked on it that thanked them for their effort. And he sent me one of those letters. And I’m very impressed with it, because he knew what I was doing. Because he could mention that in his letter. I’ve been very proud of that letter. That’s what that is all about. It may not be much to many people, but to people who have been involved in the nuclear industry, I think it has some impact. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Did you ever meet any other Los Alamos or other Manhattan Project veterans who weren’t from the Hanford site when you worked at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: When I went to Hanford did I ever--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: Meet any other people who had been at Los Alamos? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: No, there are not too many people here, just a few people here. I’m hoping—I’d like to know—I wanted to put something on Facebook about seeing how many people from Los Alamos who actually worked on the bomb still are around. Because I don’t think there are too many. I was—I got my degree when I was 21, so—and then I immediately went to work and have done that since then. But I’ve lost track of most of the people. I think they’re probably dead by now. [LAUGHTER] But if there’s something that comes up from that, I’d like to see. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> O’Reagan: All right, well thank you so much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Joyce: Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX228872584"> Goldsmith: You’re welcome. Thank you. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:08:27 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview F Reactor Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Boiling Water Reacto Fast Flux Test Facility (FFTF) Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-1987 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Wiley, Bill Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 247 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stanley Goldsmith Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/21/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-28: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Battelle (Wash.) Boiling Water Reactor F Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility (FFTF) General Electric HAMMER Site Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3c0a15b7341da5395fe544ee39586122.JPG 4c81c97bcaf611d56e40f2d717c1f940 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stanley Goldsmith Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: First of all, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? Stanley Goldsmith: Stanley Goldsmith. O’Reagan: Okay, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Goldsmith here on March 21st, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Mr. Goldsmith about his experiences working at Hanford. Okay. Could you tell us about your childhood up through—just briefly tell us about your life up through college and entering the Manhattan Project. Goldsmith: At Hanford here, or at Los Alamos? O’Reagan: Before that. Your life before the Manhattan Project. Where were you born? Goldsmith: Virginia. Norfolk, Virginia. In 19—March 25th, 1924. O’Reagan: Can you tell us about your life before the Manhattan Project? Up through college? Goldsmith: Well I— O’Reagan: Why don’t I move closer, that might— Goldsmith: I was raised in Norfolk and went to Virginia Tech to take—to get a chemical engineering degree. I entered Virginia Tech in 1941, and I graduated in 1945. O’Reagan: And then you entered the Army, is that right? Goldsmith: After graduation, I was drafted into the Army, and assigned to the Manhattan District of Engineers. Eventually, after waiting in several different places for my clearance, I wound up at Los Alamos, where I worked from 1945 to ’47—1947. O’Reagan: Did you just find out about what the goal was once you arrived? Goldsmith: Yes. After I got to Los Alamos, we were told what the objective was, and all about the problems. This was different than the other nuclear sites were. This mission was kept secret. O’Reagan: What element of the project did you work on at Los Alamos? Goldsmith: At Hanford? O’Reagan: At Los Alamos. Goldsmith: At Los—I worked on processing the uranium-235 for the first atomic bomb. O’Reagan: What did that involve? Goldsmith: That involved converting uranium oxide that had been enriched with 235. That involved processing it from an oxide to a fluoride so it could be reduced to a metal. And then machined into the shapes they needed for the bombs. O’Reagan: Were you figuring out your process as you went? Goldsmith: No. The process had been pretty well established. This was more like just individual laboratories processing individual amounts of u-235 to get it to the point where it could be reduced to metal. O’Reagan: Who did you work with? Goldsmith: What? O’Reagan: Did you work with anybody? Goldsmith: Yes. O’Reagan: Who else was in your lab? Goldsmith: That was a long time ago. Let’s see. There was Al Drumrose and a Purcell—I don’t remember his first name. There were two other—well, maybe a few other more people. But I guess I just don’t recall the names. O’Reagan: So what brought you to Hanford? Goldsmith: What got me to Hanford? I left Los Alamos to get a graduate degree in chemical engineering. When I graduated, I got a job here at Hanford as a nuclear—as a reactor engineer. O’Reagan: How did you hear about the job? Goldsmith: Well, I knew about Hanford, and I sent out letters of inquiry about positions that may be open here and at other sites. And I got the position here in 1950. O’Reagan: So you wanted specifically to work at Hanford or other sites—what was—did you have specific goals of what you wanted to do? Goldsmith: Well, I liked what Hanford had to offer. So there was no question about that. They satisfied what I was looking for. O’Reagan: What were your first impressions of the area? Goldsmith: Well, it was shocking to say the least. It was like out in the wilderness. And when I arrived in 1950, General Electric operated the whole site, including the housing and all of the utilities and so forth. They assigned me a house that—I don’t remember what the rent was, but it was very inexpensive. And then in 1960—let’s see, it was about 1960—between ’61 and ’65—they divided the work at Hanford among several—among four or five contractors. One of them operated the laboratory, one of them operated the nuclear reactor, and one the separations plant. I stayed with the laboratory. O’Reagan: Could you walk us through an average day when you first—say in 1950 or ’52—what sort of work were you doing? Goldsmith: What sort of work? O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Goldsmith: The average day—you want me to start back there?—is that my worksite was located about 20 miles from Richland. You could take a bus operated by the plant, or you could drive. But you had to go through an entrance gate—entrance—not a gate, but a station. And then we had to show our passes—badges. Then we went out to the site where we were working. In this case, at that time, I was working at F Reactor. As a reactor engineer, I rotated positions at the different reactors. So the work was—you asked me about the work—the work was, I thought, extremely interesting. And I felt very fortunate in that I felt like I was on the forefront of a new technology. By the time I got up here, there was a lot of emphasis on the peaceful use of nuclear power. I got involved in work for improving the nuclear fuels that was currently being used. This was because I was with Battelle then, and Battelle had a joint contract with the DoE where they could use part of their facilities—well, the major part of the facilities were for DoE work. But they also had a contract which they called 1831, and that was for doing private work for industrial corporations involved in nuclear work. I spent a lot of time on that, trying to—my group was trying to improve the performance of the fuel. Wanted to get higher powers. So that the fuel—we could produce fuel at a faster rate—I’m sorry, produce plutonium at a faster rate by increasing the power of the reactors. I worked as a reactor engineer for about four years. Then I took the position of manager of nuclear fuels research and development. We worked on developing or designing nuclear fuels, analyzing the fuels that had been used in the reactors to see what improvements could be made. Let’s see. We had a lot of interactions with the commercial fuel designers. As I mentioned, there were two contract billers. And this was done on the 1831, which allowed Battelle to use some facilities that were DoE’s—some facilities on the plant in their private work. So I’m trying to think about the timing, now. The main—after working on DoE projects for about five years, I worked on a private project that was sponsored—that was funded by Exxon—they’re now called Exxon Nuclear. They were interested in getting into the nuclear business, because they had a lot of claims on land that have uranium. They wanted—they decided to utilize those claims. Get the uranium, then processing it for use as nuclear fuels. So at that time, I think there was only one Exxon employee involved in this. They took over part—a major part of that, as Exxon Nuclear—took over a major part of Battelle. We were moved out of the buildings that DoE built, and we were located in Uptown in Richland in the industrial—just completely isolated from the other nuclear work that was going on. We designed a nuclear fuel for Exxon Nuclear which evolved into their first commercial fuels. During that time, Exxon Nuclear began to have their own staff. But we stayed with them until about 19—early 1970s, we worked with them. And then their own employees could take over from then. After that, I worked on fuel cycles. On seeing if we could design different types of fuels with different types of materials, like thorium, on the fuel cycles. And we—let’s see. This was work for DoE. And we continued that work—my group continued working for DoE. They were working on the nuclear reactor regulation, on NRC. We had projects with NRC. Our main project was DoE. And here again, I was telling you--[COUGH] Excuse me. I was still involved in nuclear fuel development. We did a lot of work for NRC and also for DoE. This was on helping them understand and approve their review of new nuclear fuels in reactors—nuclear fuel design. So we were working on both sides of the street: with the regulatory side, and the DoE development side. And then in 1980—excuse me just one minute—I should have jotted these dates down. In late 1980s, I worked on a DoE program on nuclear fuels—on nuclear fuel cycles, where we were looking at different way of utilizing the nuclear fuels so that they would last longer and that they would be safer. Then after that, I was assigned to Battelle Columbus, because I had worked through this project. It turned out quite successful. And Battelle Columbus had a contract with DoE to perform research on finding a nuclear repository—nuclear burial site. I was the Battelle manager of that program for about four years. We looked at the—examined the potential nuclear sites in New Mexico, Louisiana, Georgia, and here at Hanford. This program went on for about four or five years, and then DoE selected the Nevada site at Los Alamos—not Los Alamos—at Las Vegas for the site to bury the spent nuclear fuels. That program lasted for quite a while, but I left it in 19—after four years, because I didn’t want to move down to Texas, which was one of the sites that was being considered. So I moved back here to the Hanford. I worked on miscellaneous programs after I came back to Hanford. A lot of them had to do with the nuclear fuel cycle and the nuclear waste disposal—nuclear waste treatment and disposal. And I did that type of work for about four years, and then I retired in 1987? 19—yes, in 1987. And I left Battelle, and went to work for an environmental engineering company in Washington, DC, who was working on the same sort of thing. They were technical support contracted to DoE headquarters. So I was there until—let’s see. I was there until about 1994. And then I had to just—I still continued to work even though I was retired from Battelle. I had actually moved back to Battelle and was hired by Battelle as a consultant so that I could retain my pension and the salary for the job. That went on until about 1992. And finally, I retired for good. [LAUGHTER] So, that’s a very brief and sketchy description of what I did here at Hanford. One thing that—a little sideline you might be interested in. You asked about what Hanford was like. When I first came to work here, there were very few facilities that could be used at Hanford. I was not—I didn’t need anything special to do my work; I didn’t need a specially designed building structure. But I did do work on design and that work was done—the group was assigned to the Hanford High School. [LAUGHTER] Let’s see, where else? As I said, I had worked at most of the reactors that were operating at that time. Oh, there’s one thing that—I want to back up a little bit until about 1975. I got in—my group got involved in plutonium recycle. This was a program that DoE sponsored, a fairly large program, in which we were trying to recycle the plutonium that was not being used in bombs. Plutonium—to show that it could be used in nuclear power reactors. And we actually had a plutonium recycle test reactor built here onsite to test the fuels, the mixed oxide. We called it mixed oxide fuel because it’s plutonium and uranium oxide. And the reactor, which was the PRTR, Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor, was designed specifically to try to test, get information on mixed oxide fuels. Let’s see. I moved around a lot. After about five years on that program, I moved on, I think, to working for Exxon Nuclear, to assist them in their program. Now, Exxon Nuclear was so sensitive about their work being exposed by DoE that they moved many of the facilities that they used at Battelle, they moved them to different sections. We had offices at the old—what was it—the woman who had all of this fabric stuff? It was in Richland, it’s right in downtown Richland. And we took the top floor of one of the buildings that had already been built. And of course, there, we only did calculations because they had no facilities for taking care of irradiated material. That was an interesting time, too, when we were off on our own, so to speak. O’Reagan: They did that because they were afraid of the Department of Energy taking their knowledge? Goldsmith: Well, they were concerned there would be some link—crossover—inadvertently, perhaps. The DoE could claim that some of the work done by Exxon Nuclear was done by DoE. And they didn’t want that to happen, so they completely isolated themselves. O’Reagan: Did that hurt your work? Goldsmith: Did that work? O’Reagan: Did it impact your work, being isolated like that? Goldsmith: I’m sorry? O’Reagan: Being isolated, did that impact your work? Did it slow your work, or did it cause any problems? Goldsmith: No, it didn’t cause any problems. We were able to move our whole group out into the new facility in downtown Richland. So were other groups—nuclear physics group, and the other groups that went into the fuel cycle. But that was an interesting time, because we were really developing commercial nuclear fuels. The design that we had come up with was the first nuclear fuels that Exxon Nuclear had marketed. They marketed to—I’ll think of that in a minute. But anyway, we got involved in—since I mentioned earlier that there were very few Exxon Nuclear employees involved in this program—that we actually got involved with the Exxon Nuclear people who went out to market their product. That was at the time when we ran into some very interesting commercial situations. O’Reagan: What makes one nuclear fuel better than another nuclear fuel? Goldsmith: Well, they were made primarily from uranium, and they were oxides. They were made into compressed pellets. Now, some of these were different—some of these were specifically made for boiling-water reactors, and others were for pressurized-water reactors. There was a design difference in the two reactors. One of them—the power level was about the same, but the design of the fuel and the way it was structured was different. That made a difference in the fuel for the two types of reactors. After we got involved in working for Exxon Nuclear, when our contract with them expired, we became very much involved in working only for DoE and NRC. I think I mentioned that to you. We—oh, we had contracts—my group had contacts with practically all the commercial nuclear fuel design people, and we provided them design support, and we did testing for them. So we were pretty much involved in the nuclear industry by then. O’Reagan: How secretive or how classified was your work? Goldsmith: After—when I moved to Hanford, the classification was almost—was very slim. It was very lax, because with the dropping of the atom bombs, then all of that came out, what the bomb was made of, and some ideas what the design of the bomb was. So by that time, it had pretty well leaked out, the security was relaxed on that, also. So that wasn’t—that was no longer a big problem. There were still some residual problem in security. In fact, the Russians, of course, wanted to get into the nuclear industry business. They wanted to know—well, this backed up into the weapons program—Cold War program. They wanted to know what powers we read our plants at—how many megawatts. And they actually took measurements of the Columbia River and calculated from that what powers we were obtaining. So that was when the Cold War was going on. O’Reagan: How did you hear about that? Goldsmith: Hear about what? O’Reagan: The Russians testing the waters. Goldsmith: Oh. I think we had—our security people kept an eye on what was going on with the Russians. And this is one of the things they found out. O’Reagan: Let’s see. What was life in the Tri-Cities like back in the 1950s and ‘60s outside of work? Goldsmith: Well, it was pretty plain in a way—several. Because there weren’t many things to do. There was only one theater, and there may have been one or two grocery stores, and I think there was one real estate agent. That was the case with most of the various businesses. There was maybe one, or two at the most. There was not much in the way of entertainment. I mentioned that we had one theater. People—the workers at the plant—developed their own entertainment—sources of entertainment. They formed all kinds of different clubs. One of the most popular club was the bridge club—competitive bridge. We played that in one of the commercial buildings that had an open space that we could use. Another was the Richland Little Theater. And then there was a Richland opera—Light Opera, also. And there were—of course, golf was a big activity, because there were already several different golf courses. So that was taking off. There were other activities like that where you had to build them yourself. You may have gotten a little support from DoE, but you couldn’t depend on it. So we had to make our own source of entertainment and relaxation. O’Reagan: Did you play bridge? What was your entertainment? Goldsmith: Yeah, I got involved in playing bridge. This was duplicate bridge. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but that’s a form of bridge that is competitive. It’s still—it’s played in such a way that everybody—each couple gets to play against another couple, and they rotate during the evening, so that other couples play the same cards. The competitive part comes in as to who comes up with the best score at the end of the evening. [LAUGHTER] And that was quite controversial. Particularly when a man and woman were partners—they would—they had no shame, or no hesitant to getting into arguments at the bridge table. So that was a big deal. Even now there’s a lot of bridge clubs that are playing here—duplicate bridge is what it’s called. O’Reagan: Where did you live throughout your time at Hanford, or in this area? Goldsmith: What’s that? O’Reagan: Where did you live? Did you move houses? Goldsmith: Yes—well, yeah. At that time, they were building houses like mad. I lived in one of the government houses in Richland—old Richland. Then I moved into what they called a ranch house. Those were a government house that was one story, and it had three bedrooms. There was some furnishing that came with these houses. The rental on it was very nominal. And as I recall, we were provided—many of these houses, or most of them were heated by coal. DoE actually—at that time, it was actually GE who ran the town—provided free coal. They would come around periodically and dump a load of coal for you to use in your houses. O’Reagan: Sounds dirty! Goldsmith: Huh? O’Reagan: Sounds dirty! Seems like it would get you messy. All the—dumping the coal, is there a coal dust that would come up? Goldsmith: What’s that? O’Reagan: When you burned the coal, would it be dirty? Would it make a lot of smoke, I guess? Goldsmith: Not too bad. They must have used a hard coal that gave out less smoke. I don’t know that—it wasn’t like an industrial company where they had large facilities that generated a lot of steam, a lot of smoke. This was kind of dispersed. So we didn’t have an air problem at that time. We had—now the other thing that they did to make life easier—we had our own transportation—public transportation system. You could ride on the buses that they had for free. So that was to make life easier for the employees. O’Reagan: Must have been a lot of buses? Goldsmith: What? O’Reagan: Must have been a whole lot of buses. Goldsmith: Well, most of the buses were actually used to go out to the Area—to take the workers out to the Area, because there’s where you had a lot of people to be transported. The civilians, or the private people, had—many of them had their own cars. So didn’t use the bus. O’Reagan: Was it different when you were working on commercial energy compared to when you were working for the Department of Energy? Goldsmith: Yes, there were quite a lot of differences. We were able to produce fuel designs and produce developmental fuels in a much shorter time than DoE, because there was a lot of paperwork involved in going through the DoE process. In fact, one of the DoE people at headquarters who was in charge of reactor development said he was very upset because he couldn’t—he was in charge of the fast reactor, the FFTF. And they were struggling to try to get the thing going. He was very upset because he couldn’t understand how we were able to get fuel for Exxon Nuclear, and they were still struggling. They’d been struggling for a long time. [LAUGHTER] So he wanted to know what we were doing. Well, what it was, we didn’t have to jump through all the loops that you did. O’Reagan: Was it finding the uranium, the procurement that was the problem? Or just write paperwork? Goldsmith: No, the problem that DoE had was that they had a bureaucracy that kind of controlled things. And that always slows things down. It took them about twice as long to develop the fuel for the Fast Flux Reactor than it did us for the commercial reactors. O’Reagan: Hmm. Let’s see. Have the Tri-Cities changed much in the time you’ve been living here? Goldsmith: Oh, yeah. It’s been amazing how it’s grown. The Tri-Cities now is like a normal city. The nuclear influence is much less, because we have so many other businesses now involved for our economic base. As I had mentioned earlier, there were usually one kind or maybe two types of business or entertainment or something like that. When the commercial people came in, they opened as many stores as they wanted, or that were needed. So that was one big thing. Another big thing was the housing development, the real estate. I remember up until 19—let’s see, about 1965, GE was in charge of everything, including building houses. [COUGH] Excuse me, I’ve got a cold. When they opened up the lands, part of the land, surrounding territory was owned by the Department of the Interior—it was government owned. And then they made those available to the public for building houses and other types of structures. The demand for these things was great enough, so the building was really at a peak. Now, even now, you take a look at the housing—the amount of housing that’s going on, and take a look at the commercial businesses, like drive down George Washington Way, you see all these new businesses or restaurants or that sort of thing. So it’s really changed. Richland was all on this side of the Columbia River. That was one of the boundaries for Richland. But then the Columbia River curved around, and there were—on the other side of the river, there was nothing but sagebrush. But some entrepreneurs had bought land there, and then when they started to build, they had lots of land to build on. That was no problem. There’s a whole new part of Richland that’s on the other side of the river that wasn’t there until probably about 1965 or so. That’s when it started. So there’s been a growth of industry. The highways have been developed. There’s new industry that’s come in. So we’ve developed quite a good industrial base now, and it’s still growing. O’Reagan: Are there any—to ask an open-ended question, are there any moments or stories that come to mind that you think are worth telling about your time working at Hanford? Goldsmith: Well, I told you about how we had, early on, we had offices at the Hanford High School. That was—we made a lot of fun of that, when anyone called you at the high school, we said this is the Goldsmith class of ’41-’42. There was a lot of—amazing amount of work that was done on animals to use those as some of the basic studies for the effect of radiation on animals. Now we don’t have any of those studies going on. But let’s see. I’m trying to think of something that is unusual. A lot of it was—practically all of it was unusual. O’Reagan: How about something mundane, but it’s still kind of unusual? Or maybe a day in the life later on in your work? Goldsmith: Well, I mentioned the general public had to develop their own recreational activities. We have—I don’t know—we have a lot of parks and fields. Like some of those baseball parks are very good. I didn’t appreciate how good they were until—I have some relatives who live in Maryland, and we visited them, and we went to see their children’s baseball game. But they had just an open field, nothing like we have. So that’s been—the recreational things have improved quite a bit. Of course the boating is still a big deal. I really—as I said, there was so much growth going on that it’s hard to pick out any one area. Excuse me. The recreational areas have increased. You know, we’ve grown more; we’ve built at least two new golf courses, and these were very good golf courses. Then the other thing is some of the building of private homes around the golf courses. That has been—we live in a community there that probably has—what would you say, Joyce, about 800 people? Something of that sort. And it’s very nice. There’s two such communities. One of them is called Canyon Lakes, where we live, and the other is called Meadow Springs. That’s been developed—highly developed. We both have very nice golf courses. Joyce: After you retired, didn’t you work with the people from Israel, the First Defenders? Goldsmith: Oh, yeah, that was an interesting little program. That was after I retired, and I was re-hired. Battelle got a program from the State Department to help—to develop ways for the First Defenders on a terrorist site could make a better determination of what happened. And they did this on a worldwide basis. Mainly, underdeveloped countries, but one country that they had and they were anxious to get involved because they had firsthand information—they were anxious to get Israelis involved. Because they had a lot of first defenders. The program consisted of sending a team of people over to Israel and tell them what the program was about. And then Israel was to send about 20 people over here for a month. And then we were using the training—the HAMMER facility to do the training. I got involved because when the Israelis came over, they asked me, since I’m Jewish, they asked me if I would help trying to make them feel comfortable and so forth, take care of their dietary laws. And again, they were very pleased. And it was fun, it was interesting to see how they had become sensitized to terrorism. For instance, they stayed at one of the hotels out there. It’s right outside of Columbia Center Mall. And early morning, a bus would pick them up and take them out to the HAMMER site. After about two or three days, the bus driver said—no, someone said are we going to take any different routes? And the bus driver thought they meant for sightseeing. But they didn’t want to establish a pattern for terrorists to see what their schedule was. So they finally got him to change the route out to Hanford itself. But that was interesting, because the view of the Israelis who had been submitted to so much terrorism and the view of the other countries that we trained but who had not been submitted were completely different. Like night and day. So that was interesting experience. They show you the difference between our view of being careful about terrorism. As I said, these people were housed—excuse me. These people were housed in one of the hotels close to the Columbia Center—close to the Columbia Center Mall. They would go into the mall, and they were appalled to see that people were allowed to go in and out of the mall carrying all kinds of backpacks and all kinds of packages where it’s not being inspected. Because in Israel, they inspected anyone who was carrying a package of any sort. And they would be examined. So that was an interesting insight on how the different countries treat terrorism. O’Reagan: And the training was about how to respond to a nuclear accident, or a crisis? Goldsmith: Well, this program was called the First Defenders. And these people were doctors, they were scientists, they were firemen and so first. They were a mixture of who would come to the site where an attack had been made. That’s why they called them the First Defenders. They—let’s see, what was I going to say? They were very—the ones that were really involved in anti-terrorism were very conscientious and good about it. We had some interesting things that arose as part of this program. As I said, there were nations from all over the world that were involved to a certain extent. And we had the Indians, from India, coming over, spending a month. They were put up in the Hanford House—Red Lion Hanford House. They got a call one day from someone at the Hanford House wanting to know if we could talk to these people about how to keep the shower curtains inside of the showers, because they would keep them out and they would flood the whole area. So there were strange incidences like that. I’m sorry, Joyce? Joyce: About when Bill Wiley was here and you worked at Hanford Battelle in Quality Assurance. Did you share any of that? Goldsmith: The quality--? Joyce: Uh-huh. Goldsmith: Bill Wiley was a very—I think he was very influential and left his mark on the site, because he wanted to develop this environmental molecular laboratory, the rows of buildings out there, the new rows. And that opened up a whole new set of doors for Battelle to grow. They went into more basic stuff. Up to that time, we mainly focused on working on problems with nuclear reactors and nuclear fuels. But this was completely different from that. This was basic science that these laboratories allowed us to get involved in. And it’s opened up a whole new area. I think Battelle, and Hanford in general, has benefited from it, because they get a lot of extra programs that they wouldn’t have before. O’Reagan: Were you involved with these basic science programs? Goldsmith: No, I started in nuclear fuels and nuclear reactors most of the time I was here. But I didn’t get into any of the basic science programs. O’Reagan: Did you want to say anything about this Oppenheimer letter, maybe introduce it for us? Goldsmith: He was a very nice guy, and he was very considerate, and everybody liked him. He was very friendly—friendly in a reserved way. He didn’t go around smacking people on the back, but you knew he was warm and he remembered names. After the peace was declared, I think it was that later date in 1945? No, not 1945. At any rate, after the war was over, and things settled down, he sent out a letter to some of the people who worked on it that thanked them for their effort. And he sent me one of those letters. And I’m very impressed with it, because he knew what I was doing. Because he could mention that in his letter. I’ve been very proud of that letter. That’s what that is all about. It may not be much to many people, but to people who have been involved in the nuclear industry, I think it has some impact. O’Reagan: Did you ever meet any other Los Alamos or other Manhattan Project veterans who weren’t from the Hanford site when you worked at Hanford? Goldsmith: When I went to Hanford did I ever--? O’Reagan: Meet any other people who had been at Los Alamos? Goldsmith: No, there are not too many people here, just a few people here. I’m hoping—I’d like to know—I wanted to put something on Facebook about seeing how many people from Los Alamos who actually worked on the bomb still are around. Because I don’t think there are too many. I was—I got my degree when I was 21, so—and then I immediately went to work and have done that since then. But I’ve lost track of most of the people. I think they’re probably dead by now. [LAUGHTER] But if there’s something that comes up from that, I’d like to see. O’Reagan: All right, well thank you so much. Joyce: Thank you. Goldsmith: You’re welcome. Thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/yCLXgXa3QdQ">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:13:13 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview F Reactor Battelle PRTR (Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor) Exxon Nuclear FFTF (Fast Flux Test Facility) HAMMER Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1950- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1950-1987 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stanley Goldsmith Description An account of the resource Stanley Goldsmith moved to Richland, Washington in 1950 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview with Stanley Goldsmith conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 03/21/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Los Alamos (N.M.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Chemical engineering Nuclear fuels Nuclear reactors Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Battelle Cold War Department of Energy Event F Reactor General Electric HAMMER Hanford Los Alamo Los Alamos Manhattan Project Plutonium River School Theater War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdf5707b65c796346957cfed411914d46.JPG 94e537086907f482c5fde0d65917e12f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stephanie Janicek Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Victor Vargas: We’re rolling. Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Stephanie Janick? Stephanie Janicek: Janicek. Franklin: Janicek. Janicek: Just like it’s spelled. Franklin: Okay, Janicek. On January 24th, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Stephanie about her experiences growing up in Richland and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Janicek: Stephanie Anne Dawson Janicek. Stephanie is S-T-E-P-H-A-N-I-E. Anne, A-N-N-E. Dawson, D-A-W-S-O-N. Janicek, J-A-N-I-C-E-K. Franklin: Great. So tell me how and why you first came to Richland. Janicek: My family came to Richland in 1949 when I was seven years old and I was in the first grade. My father had been a Montgomery Ward’s manager in the ‘40s and he managed stores all over the state of Washington. And he was so successful that they wanted to promote him to a regional position where he’d be traveling a lot, and he said I don’t want to do that. So he and another Ward’s manager who decided to be a silent partner talked to officials in Richland and decided that they were going to be the first store to open in Uptown Richland. The area had been set aside, there were no buildings; it was just empty lot. And the downtown area was too small and crowded, so they wanted to develop Uptown as sort of an outdoor mall, if you will. Dawson Richards was the first store built and opened. And it opened in June of 1949. Franklin: What was your father’s name? Janicek: Grover Dawson. Franklin: And was Richards the silent partner? Janicek: Jim Richards was the silent partner. He owned an orange grove and walnut trees in California, and so he was down there. They owned the store 50/50 for many years until my brother bought out Mr. Richards. And he would come up occasionally to see how things were going. But Dad was doing a great job, and everything was going well. Franklin: So tell me more about Dawson Richards store. What kinds of products did it sell? Janicek: Dawson Richards started out as a men and boys clothing store. And they had a little logo of a man wearing a suit and a hat and a little boy with a cap and a coat, because boys wore coats in the old days, you know, when they went to church. It said Dad and Lad. That was one of the early symbols of the store. And so it was a really interesting store, because my father wanted to cater to all the men in the area, most of whom worked at Hanford, regardless of their station in life. And so, for instance, he had two lines of suits; the expensive suits were made by Kuppenheimer and the less expensive were made by Timely. He had two lines of shoes. The good shoes—or the more expensive shoes, rather, were Florsheim’s, and he had Winthrop shoes for the everyday guys. And he did the same with sweaters and pants and shirts and neckties and pajamas and socks and everything you can think of. He also had—because there was almost nothing. Everybody had to go to Seattle or Spokane or maybe Yakima—I don’t know what was in Yakima in those days—to get their clothing. And especially the managers at Hanford. So they were tickled to death that they had a store that they could shop at and be very finely-clothed. And he—my dad—specialized in, oh, talls and shorts and stouts. He catered to every single size, and if he didn’t have your size, he would get it for you. And I remember one of the signs in the store said, OshKosh, because my father carried OshKosh B’gosh overalls. He really wanted to have clothing for everyone. Regardless of their station in life. And it became a wonderful gathering place. People would just come in to talk. My father was very outgoing, and we would have gatherings of high school kids, because he also carried letterman jackets, letterman sweaters. He sold the chenille letters and numbers for the cheerleader and song leader outfits. When Christ the King opened their Catholic school for kids, the students wore uniforms, and my father sold, at very deep discounts, the corduroy pants and white shirts and navy sweaters that the boys wore at the school. He really wanted to provide whatever the community needed and it worked out quite well. Franklin: Okay, great. So there wasn’t—were there any men’s stores or stores of a similar type in Pasco and Kennewick at the time? Janicek: There was—I don’t know how old the Sid Lanter’s store was in Kennewick; I think that was probably there most of the time. I don’t know if it preceded Dawson Richard’s or not. There was a small men’s store in downtown Richland. I might be able to remember the name of it later on. But just at this moment, it is—oh, was it something like Harvey’s or—I don’t recall. But my father’s was such a good sized store that he had wonderful variety. He had Pendleton woolen shirts and jackets, and he had Jantzen’s sweaters and swimsuits. Carried a lot of name brands that people were comfortable with. Franklin: And you said that was the first store in the Uptown area? Janicek: Yes, it was. And the next store that opened was a sporting goods store right next to Dawson Richard’s and it was originally called Frank Barry, which was the name of the owner. And a few years later that was sold and it became BB&M Sporting Goods, which was owned by three gentlemen with the last names of B and B and M. And then some years later they moved up the street. Dawson Richards was on the Jadwin side of Uptown Richland, and they moved farther up the street. I don’t know—is there a—I don’t think there’s a BB&M now, is there? No, it’s gone. Okay. Franklin: I’ve only been here a year, so— Janicek: Oh, okay. Franklin: My memory is— Janicek: Okay. Franklin: I don’t have a long institutional memory. Janicek: And you know, if we had time, and I’m sure we don’t, I could walk you around the entire Uptown area and tell you most of the stores that originally were there. The other oldest store was the Spudnuts shop. God bless them, they’re still there. Franklin: Yes, they are. Janicek: And still the same family owns it. Franklin: And still very delicious. Janicek: Yes, yes. Franklin: So the Uptown was the first commercial—major commercial district in Richland, right? Janicek: Yes, it was. And because they had wonderful, big parking lots all the way around the stores, people could just park and walk all the way around the square and get everything they needed. We had Stanfield florists and Parker hardware, and banks, and there was once a grocery store there, we had a theater—we had—everything you needed, you could get somewhere. And several shoe stores, jewelry, china and silverware—just—they just filled in everything that a person would need so that nobody had to go to Spokane or Seattle to shop anymore. Unless they really wanted to. Franklin: How long did your family own Dawson Richards? Janicek: Let me think. My father sold to his manager, his long-term manager, George Anderson, and George’s family. They bought out my father in the early ‘70s. And the store actually closed—ironically, the store closed in 1999 on its 50th anniversary. Franklin: So it was open for exactly 50 years. Janicek: Yes. And the gentleman who bought it—it’s now a much smaller store. The gentleman who bought it retained the Dawson Richard’s name, which tickled me to death, and he still sells tuxedos and letterman sweaters and jackets. And he also rents out tuxedos for weddings. Franklin: Oh, okay. Janicek: Then there were years when my father bought out the building—oh, I don’t know, bought or rented—the building next to Dawson Richard’s and they opened a women’s department called Lady Dawson. And so from inside Dawson Richard’s, you could just walk through to the ladies’ department. That was successful for a number of years. Eventually, they closed the boys’ department and then they closed the women’s department, and in the end, Dawson Richards was just men’s clothing. Franklin: Was that, probably, just because of competition from larger department stores? Janicek: Yes, we knew when Columbia Center was built that there would start to be more competition. Just a lot of people were going over to Columbia Center and while they were there they did all of their shopping. So a lot of people made a point of coming to Dawson Richard’s for one reason or another, but not necessarily for kids’ clothes. Franklin: Ah, it stopped being the destination in terms— Janicek: Correct. Franklin: Because there was now competition. Janicek: Yes, yes, yes. Franklin: Whatever part of Richland that is. Janicek: Yes. My dad had a policy of hiring as many high school kids as he could to sweep the floors, giftwrap at Christmas and Father’s Day and special events. So it was a really interesting gathering place not only for high school kids, but also they would come home from college and come back to see everybody. You know, if you wanted to see who’s who. And my father’s birthday was on Christmas Eve. And so everybody would come back and anybody who had ever worked at the store and not goofed up too badly, he would hire them just for two weeks. And they would see each other, and it was—and everybody came to see who’s home from college. And they would stand around and sing Happy Birthday during the day, and he’d have cake and punch in the backroom. It was very celebratory. Just lots of fun. A lot of fun to work at Dawson Richard’s or to just hang out there. The girls came in to get the chenille letters and numbers for their pep club and cheerleader outfits. People came in whether they bought anything or not. And he didn’t care, because he just loved people. It was a fun place to grow up. Franklin: Did anything change in terms of the store, Uptown, or—when Richland became a private—yeah, a privately-owned city? Janicek: Not specifically that I can think of. I was in high school at the time, and I remember that Richland became a Model US City. We had a day at Richland High School where a number of the seniors shadowed a Richland official for a day. So we had somebody shadowing the mayor and each of the city council members and the fire chief and the police chief and the city engineer and all of that. And went to—I was the city librarian for a day. And we all went to the city council meeting, in celebration of Richland becoming an independent city. And the other thing that I remember is that we were able to buy our house. Because always we rented. Richland was very much subsidized by the government. We had free garbage and free utilities and—I don’t know if the phone was free, but—just a lot of things that they took care of for us in the good old days. Franklin: Right. But you said they—do you think the attitude was more celebratory, or did the people miss some of those amenities that had been provided for? Janicek: I’m sure that people missed some of the amenities and realized it was going to cost them more money to live than it used to. But they—I think they also appreciated having choices. Originally, when we came, you can’t live in Richland unless you had a job, because everybody rented their house from the government. If you didn’t have a job, you left. So if people went to jail or were alcoholics and just didn’t—excuse me—[COUGH]—didn’t measure up, then they were booted out of town. So there were a lot more choices for people. We—old Richland, no one had a garage, because the city—the government didn’t build garages; they just built houses. And so nobody had an attic. Nobody had grandparents living there. It was all young families. Which was interesting way to grow up. I’m sorry. [COUGH] Franklin: It’s okay, and there’s water right next to you, too. Janicek: Oh, splendid. I didn’t even see it. Franklin: What other kinds of civic activities or business activities was your father involved in? Janicek: Well, as I said, he started out with being on the city council and being elected mayor, because he was very outgoing and because of his experiences as a store manager for Montgomery Ward’s, he was kind of a natural leader. So he was involved for a few years with what later became United Way. He got on the school board in about 1951, and he was there for 13 or 14 years. The people on the school board kind of took turns being the president, but he got involved in a lot of school things. He was a co-founder of the Bomber Boosters. He was instrumental in the first and the second remodeling of Richland High School and the building of the Dawald Gym. And he was one of the schoolboard members who advocated for building Hanford High School, which was very controversial, because a lot of people just wanted all their kids to grow up as Richland Bombers. That was kind of a sacred thing to be in the old days. It was sort of like, those other people, they have to go to Hanford. But that worked out. Hanford was an unusual school, because it was high school, junior high, and grade school—all 12 grades, well, plus kindergarten. Then later, when Sacajawea was torn down and rebuilt up in the Richland Village, then they removed the grade school from Hanford. And then Chief Jo Junior High School had been closed for a number of years, and they remodeled it and reopened it. And then moved the junior high kids out of—I don’t think—I think Hanford is just high school now, and all the junior high kids are back in either Chief Jo or Carmichael, which is what it was when I was growing up. So he was mostly involved in things having to do with kids and families. He sponsored a Little League baseball team, he sponsored and after-high school basketball league for young men who lived and worked around the Tri-Cities, and—what else did he do? Oh, his business sponsored all of the broadcasts of the Richland Bomber football and basketball games. He was very close friends with all of the coaches at Richland High School. In the old days, when the Richland Bombers went to the state basketball tournament, they were driven in cars. And so my dad and the coaches would put a couple of boys in the back of the car and drive over to Seattle. It was a four days, double-elimination, huge tournament at the Hec Edmundson Pavilion at the UW campus. So, he got to know all of the players as well as the coaches. Just loved that—more of getting to know everybody in the community. He just was that kind of guy. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Well, that’s great. So tell me about growing up in the government town of Richland and what kind of—what your impressions were when you first moved— Janicek: My earliest impressions—we lived in south Richland for the first year and a half. We lived in an F House, which is a single-family two-story. And our street was only one block long—Atkins. My first recollection is that there were no garages, so everybody parked in the street. But everybody—families only had one car. The men didn’t drive to work at Hanford; there were buses that came through. There were three shifts, so Hanford was running 24 hours a day. There were three shifts: the day shift, the evening shift, and the overnight shift or graveyard. So the buses would come through and pick up the workers at corners and guys would all be there with their metal lunch pails and you’d see them going off. And then they’d come back, I don’t know, nine or ten hours later and drop them off, because it was quite a drive to Hanford. So the family car stayed at home, but a lot of them—and most of the mothers stayed at home. Very few women worked; some of them worked at Hanford or in some of the businesses, but most of them didn’t. And a lot of them didn’t drive. So the cars just sat there all day and were only used after Dad came home from work, or to go shopping on Saturday, or to go to church on Sunday. There were a lot of churches in the community, which I thought was kind of interesting. Lots of denominations. My family was Episcopalian, and it was a few years before we got our own church, and so the Richland Lutheran church let us have our services in the basement of their church. So our services were on folding metal chairs with little kneeling pads on the cement floor. It was a little chilly, but it was very kind of them to let us do that until we had our own church. But there were—and we had a lot of Protestant churches called Central United Protestant, Southside United Protestant, Westside United Protestant. But actually, if you asked someone or looked carefully, one of them was more Methodist, one of them was more Presbyterian; some of them, I didn’t know what they were. They weren’t in my neighborhood and I didn’t know kids that went to them until I got to high school. It was a very insular community in a lot of ways. You knew all the kids in your neighborhood, and all the kids in your school, which was—they were neighborhood schools. If you went to church, and most people did, you knew the kids that were in your church. But as a young child, we had no idea what everybody’s father did. We knew that most of them worked at Hanford, but we had no idea whether the father was a truck driver or a manager or a clerk or a—you know, scientist. That was beyond us. We never asked, and nobody ever talked about it. So, the kids in my class—when my class graduated in 1960, there were about 417 of us. And for the most part, if you didn’t ask, you didn’t really know what the other parents did. I knew most of the business community and a lot of those people had kids. People that owned the stores, and groceries and gas stations. One of my best friends in high school was the step-daughter of the man who managed the Desert Inn, which is now the Hanford House. It was neat to sleep over at her house, because she lived in the hotel. [LAUGHTER] And you could swim in the pool, and you had all your meals in the hotel dining room. Franklin: Oh, wow. Janicek: It was really different. Most of the time, there was no public transportation. There were a few years when there was a city bus, and I don’t know—I was young; I was maybe fourth grade, fifth grade, and I remember taking the bus in the summertime to the city library. And I would sit and read books all day in the library, and then I would come home at dinner time. It was one of the things I loved to do, because I was a very bookish person. And then one year, they stopped having the buses. I don’t know whether they—and it only cost—I don’t remember if they were free, or they cost a dime or something, but it was certainly not restrictive in any way. That was fun. I remember just—even as a pretty young kid—that the Richland Community House on George Washington Way had pool tables in the back for the adults, but every Friday night they had square dancing for the kids. So all the kids would go and learn to square dance. There were a number of callers and you’d be there for a couple of hours. That was a really fun community thing to do, and that was a way to meet people who didn’t live in your neighborhood or didn’t go to your school. The town was full of young families with young children. I think the only older people who were there were either highly skilled technical men who came with their wives and either they didn’t have children or the children had already left home before they moved to Richland. Then some of the older couples, the man was in management. A few of the older couples, the women were scientists or engineers or technologists. There were some, you know—we now are learning—some highly skilled women out there that kind of disappeared into the woodwork. Nobody knew anything about them. One of the curious things that I did not realize for many years is how—I don’t know what to say. Almost everybody in the community when I was growing up was—I hate to say it—but they were white. And I didn’t know any—I didn’t know any, any blacks, any Asians, any—well, there was one Hispanic family that went to my high school, two girl cousins, that were in my class in grade school. And then I guess they must have moved to another part of town, because then I didn’t ever see them in junior high or high school. There were a few black families that I got to know, partly because they would shop in my father’s store, and partly because—when I went to Chief Jo Junior High, the PE classes were separate: girls’ PE and boys’ PE, and they had a big curtain they drew down the middle of the gymnasium so that we wouldn’t see each other in our shorts or whatever it was. But there would be a six-week session where we danced. And we all learned how to waltz and, I don’t know, whatever the jitterbug had evolved to in the ‘40s—or in the ‘50s, rather. That’s when Fats Domino and Chubby Checker were coming out, and eventually Elvis. So we were all learning to do the twist and all those things—they were fast and loud. And that was fun, because if you had that in PE for six weeks, you learned how to do that stuff, and you didn’t feel like such a dorky wallflower. There was one boy in my PE class who was black. And so when it was time for the dancing, everybody would choose their partners. And I was the tallest girl in the school and wore glasses until the ninth grade when I was the first person to get contact lenses. But anyway, so he and I were usually left close to the end of who choses who for a dance partner. Which was perfectly fine with me. I didn’t care. I didn’t have any prejudices, any reasons to feel any different about him than about anybody else in the class. And he was actually polite and nice and, you know, dressed nicely and cleaned up. He didn’t talk much; I think he was probably more shy and scared than I was. But it was an interesting experience, because—it was fine with me, you know? We danced, talked a little bit. But it was the only time I ever saw him. I didn’t—I don’t think we had any classes together. So I didn’t run into him very often. Franklin: Did he go to the school with you? Janicek: Oh, yeah, he went to Chief Jo. Well, you have to remember that when I first moved to Richland, there was Camp Hanford that was a military camp north of town. And there was a—at one time Richland had the largest trailer park in the country. And I’ve forgotten now—I think it was 50,000 trailers. I think, for the most part, those trailers didn’t have kitchens or bathrooms, because people ate in—maybe they did. I don’t remember, because I wasn’t in them. But they had big mess halls where people ate and they fed—I mean, they had constant food. They were either cooking or cleaning up all the time because they couldn’t feed everybody at once. And then they had bathhouses in among the trailer camp where people—just kind of like when you go to an RV park, you go to the toilets and sinks and showers. And I don’t know—maybe some of the larger trailers had those things. But I know there were small trailers that didn’t. They looked like campers, with no plumbing and—I don’t even know what they did for lighting. But between the military and the construction workers who lived north of town, there were some black families. And so I have no idea what that fella’s family did. But then we had the Brown family. When I was in junior high and high school, we had two basketball stars. And basketball was as big at Richland High School as it was in the state of Indiana. [LAUGHTER] We were Hoosiers West, maybe, I don’t know. But Norris Brown and his younger brother, CW Brown, were outstanding basketball players. They played on the Richland basketball teams, and they were among those basketball players that my parents and the coaches drove to Seattle for the tournament every year. They were the nicest guys. Now, the—I don’t think there were any black girls in Richland at that time, but there were a lot of black people who lived in Pasco. And so they did their socializing, I think, with people who lived in Pasco. And I didn’t know for many years that Kennewick was a—I don’t know, they call it, now they call it a sundowner town, that all the blacks had to be out by the time the sun went down. Had no idea! But there was a place where kids went to dance on the weekends and it was called Hi-Spot. And they would advertise on the radio, and everybody listened to the radio. That’s how you found out what all the popular music was. And so they would advertise: everybody come to Hi-Spot for dancing and—I don’t know. I never went, so I don’t know, but I’m guessing maybe they had light refreshments there. Anyway, everybody was invited to come. So, Norris and CW Brown went with girlfriends who I’m assuming were from Pasco, and they were thrown out because it was after dark, and this was in Kennewick. Richland was horrified. I mean, number one, we had no idea that Kennewick had these laws. And number two, these guys were our heroes. They were winning basketball games for us, and they, number three, they were extremely nice and polite and good students and—you know, there was absolutely no reason that you wouldn’t want to have them at a teenage gathering. I think—and this is only my person opinion—but I think that that’s where a good deal of the Richland/Kennewick rivalry started. Because the Richland people were so incensed that our heroes were thrown out of town. And that was in the late ‘50s. Let’s see. CW was one or two years ahead of me—two, I think. So that would have been, like, I don’t know, ’56, ’57, ’58. And Norris had graduated, but CW was on the team that in March of 1958 won the state basketball championship, which was just the hugest thing that had happened to Richland, probably since the beginning of time. It was just a really big thrill. And I was at that tournament, and I was at that game. And it was the biggest thing that had happened to me, too. I was so excited for my team. Because always the state had been dominated by all of the Seattle and Tacoma teams, for the most part, and sometimes a couple from Spokane. And so poor little old Richland that was stuck out in the desert and nobody knew about Richland in particular and nobody wanted to go there. [LAUGHTER] What are these kids doing in our sacred basketball tournament? And we won the whole thing. And that was just very exciting. And CW Brown was on that team. Another member of that team was John Meyers. John Meyers was this—he was built like a Douglas fir. He was just big all over—tall and large. And he was the star of my dad’s Little League baseball team. His father was the assistant manager. And he regularly hit homeruns and broke the bat. Regularly. I used to go to a lot of the Little League games, and that was really fun to watch. John Meyers was a star on the basketball and football teams at Richland High School. He played at least two sports—I’m not sure about baseball—but at least he played two sports at the University of Washington where he went for four years, and then he was drafted into the NFL. He played most of his career for the Philadelphia Eagles. So we had a local celebrity. One of several local celebrities that we had. So that was a really—I just loved following sports, and then, I, myself became a Washington Husky. Went with them to the Rose Bowl which John Meyers played in, in January of 1961. And then I ended up marrying a guy from Notre Dame, and so we’re big football fans. [LAUGHTER] We’ve had Seahawks tickets for 19 years. [LAUGHTER] Just was destined to be, I guess. Franklin: Yeah. What do you remember about civil defense in the Tri-Cities? Do you remember going through defense drills at school? Janicek: What I remember—there are two different aspects that I remember. When I was—most of the time, after the first year-and-a-half of living in south Richland and going to Lewis and Clark, we moved to north Richland and I went to Jefferson grade school, and then Chief Jo Junior High and Richland High School, which we always called Col High, and most of us in our hearts, it’s still Col High and not Richland. But we would have air raid drills maybe once a month at Jefferson. And we would—every class would march out into the hallway where we would lie down on the floor next to the wall. We would lie absolutely flat on our stomachs with our head resting on one arm, and I think maybe that was partly to protect our eyes. And then the other hand behind our necks to protect our spinal cord, I guess. I’m not sure that would have done any good if the Russians had actually bombed us. Because we truly believed that there was a good chance that we were going to be bombed by the Russians. We truly did. And so those were serious, civil defense drills. Franklin: You mean we as in you believed the Russians would bomb America, or Hanford specifically? Janicek: Well, we thought that the Russians would bomb America, but that Hanford was a really good target. Because of—by then it was known that we were creating the plutonium for bombs and all of the nuclear activities going on out there. And we thought that, if Russia really wanted to take over the world, that they would want to take out all of the nuclear facilities so that we wouldn’t be able to fight back or build up our defenses to eventually fight back. The other thing I remember—excuse me—[COUGH]—about civil defense is that every so often, we would have drills where every neighborhood was told where to go, get in your car and drive out into the desert to get out of town, get away from Hanford. And they would have those—I don’t remember—maybe once a year. I don’t think we had them more often than that. But you were always cautioned to keep your gas tank at least half full, because there wouldn’t be time to go fill up if we all had to evacuate town. Now, I suspect that there was a second reason for those drills, and that is in case anything went wrong and something blew up at Hanford, like Chernobyl. We had an inordinate amount of faith in our government and our scientists and engineers and our leaders at Hanford, and believed they would keep us safe. And Hanford actually has an amazing safety record. Very few things went wrong and caused any difficulties. But I suspect that if something had happened at Hanford, that those evacuation routes would have—and those evacuation routes were marked for a number of years. Eventually the signs all disappeared. But you knew where your neighborhood was supposed to drive to. Franklin: Interesting. Where was your neighborhood supposed to drive to, do you remember? Janicek: Well, it was long before I was old enough to drive a car: I was in grade school. And I didn’t even know where I was when I was out of town. I didn’t know which way was up, down, or west, or south. I’m guessing, since we lived on McMurray in north Richland, we probably went west. Franklin: Ah. And when we moved up to north Richland, did you also live in an alphabet house, or did you— Janicek: Yes, we lived in a Q house. The houses on McMurray were all Qs and Rs. And they were all three-bedroom, one-story houses with a full basement, whereas the old houses—the old alphabet houses, As and Fs and many of the others—had a half-basement and then a three- or four-foot high wall in the basement of cement blocks, and then there was dirt behind that. And then some people, after they bought their homes, would dig out—it was called digging out—the basement. But we had a full basement, and really nice backyard. Franklin: And is that the house that your parents bought when Richland— Janicek: We were living in that house and then bought it, yes, when Richland sold. One of the tough things about living in Richland is that there was no air conditioning. The houses had swamp coolers, which also were called squirrel cages. They were great, big, huge things that attached to a window and made a lot of noise. It sounded like metal blades going around, very noisy, and water ran through them to cool the air. Well, that made the houses not—it didn’t cool the houses that much, but it made them very humid. So, sometimes, you forgot you were living in a desert or a semi-arid desert, because it was very humid along with the heat, and very uncomfortable. But my father’s store had refrigerated air conditioning. It was one of the first buildings to have that. I’m guessing that the hospital and—well, no, the hospital used to be little funny buildings. I’m guessing maybe the hotel had it, and maybe some restaurants. But, yeah, that was another reason that people liked Dawson Richards, because it was cool inside on hot days. [LAUGHTER] But that was difficult. And we had a lot of summers when the temperature was over 100 degrees. And, like now, we had some winters when it got down far below freezing, down to -10 or even 0 a couple of times. One of the other interesting weather things about living in Richland in the olden days is when you had the big dust storms, or the termination winds as some people called them, you would have great big huge clumps of sagebrush flying through town about five to ten feet off the ground. And one time, a sagebrush—I have never seen this since—a sagebrush as big as a Volkswagen lodged in front of our front door, and we couldn’t get in and out our front door. Because it had blown in and was kind of stuck to the doorknob and whatever we had around the front door. And we couldn’t budge it. We couldn’t grab a big enough piece, or reach in far enough to grab one of the main stems or limbs of the sagebrush to pull it out. So we’d all have to run around and go in and out the back door. But the worst part of the winds, or one of the worst parts, was the dust, because it got in your eyes. And people were starting to get contact lenses. And that was just absolutely murderous, to have all that dust blowing in your eyes and getting behind your contacts. And people would go around with tears running down their faces from--[LAUGHTER]—from how painful the dust was in their eyes. And people wore sunglasses day and night to try and protect their eyes. Of course, as Richland built up and got more civilized and more of the empty lots became houses with yards and grass and trees and flowers, then the dust was not as thick as it used to be. Some of the dust storms were blinding. They were like blizzards. Oh, and that reminds me. My first winter in Richland, the winter of ’49-’50, we had a blizzard that was so bad they would not let any children leave the school until their parents came and picked them up. Well, the dads worked at Hanford and travelled by bus, so it was a while before—I imagine they probably let them go home early to get their kids. I don’t know that, but I’m guessing. And we would all be waiting at the school until the parents showed up. It was not a problem for my parents, because I’m sure in a blizzard they weren’t selling any clothing, so they just came and picked us up. But it was really bad. I just read—the old Richland Bombers have an online Sandstorm. The Sandstorm was the school newspaper, and we have an online Sandstorm that comes out every single day of the year. And it mentions birthdays and anniversaries of people—married classmates—and announces deaths of classmates and also of favorite teachers. Somebody in the online Sandstorm only a day or two ago wrote about—and I never heard this story before, so I do not know if it’s truly true—but wrote about a father who came and picked up his little boy at school during the blizzard, and didn’t have a car. And so they were walking home and they got lost in the blizzard and were found frozen to death the next day. I had never heard that before, but I could believe that, because you could not see anything. Absolutely. It was dreadful. I remember that. I have a real good visual memory, and I remember exactly what that looked like. It was fearful. Franklin: Wow. Janicek: Yup. Franklin: Wow. Janicek: Yup. Franklin: So you said you graduated in 1960. Janicek: Yes. Franklin: And then later on you came back to Hanford? Janicek: Yes, I went to University of Washington for four years. And I developed this passion for Afghanistan. So I decided the only way—and I had spent a summer in Europe and did all of that and had a good time. But I don’t know why, I really wanted to go to Afghanistan. I had studied about it, I had written reports, read books. So I joined the Peace Corps and I said, don’t send me any place but Afghanistan. Well, in those days, you took all the tests and if they decide you were qualified—they’d never had anybody ask for Afghanistan, but they had programs in Afghanistan. So I went through Peace Corps training for three months and then went to Afghanistan. And I taught English in a girls’ high school. While I was there, I met and married my husband, who was from New York and Notre Dame, and I never would have met him if I’d stayed in Richland or even in the state of Washington. So we had this very unusual Afghan wedding that was written about in the paper last year when we celebrated our 50th anniversary. So we came back and he went to graduate school at Purdue. So we lived in Indiana from ’66 to ’78, twelve years. And our three children were born there. And then we lived in Indiana. His parents were in New York and mine were in Washington, and the kids never knew any of their relatives, they never got—and we said, well, this isn’t good. So we want to go one way or the other. There were a lot of reasons why we didn’t want to live on Long Island. It was overcrowded with traffic and polluted air and polluted water, and just a lot of reasons it didn’t appeal to us. So we came out to visit my parents, and my husband interviewed at Hanford and got two job offers. So we ended up moving to Richland in 1978. So for marrying a guy from New York who you met in Afghanistan, I never would have thought that my children would graduate from my high school. But they did. So we had three little Richland Bombers in the family besides their mom. Franklin: And where did you live when you came back to Richland? Janicek: When we came back, we moved into an A house on Thayer. And it was an A house—that’s the two-story duplex—but it had been converted by the previous owner into a one-family house. So we had more bedrooms and more living space and an unusual-shaped yard, and lived on Thayer, a half a block from Van Giesen. Franklin: What did you and your husband do at Hanford? Because you said you— Janicek: Well, he’s a mechanical engineer. So he started out doing mechanical engineering things. He was involved in robotics. He spent most of his career in the Tank Farms and was a design authority for a number of years before he retired. I began as a tech editor. Became a tech writer editor, and then had several stints as a manager of editors and word processors. And we were producing all of the huge reports coming out of Hanford, mostly reporting on cleanup. Cleaning up spills in the ground, cleaning up buildings—goodness. I worked on documents that were 6,000 pages long. Mostly online editing. When—at the height of the publications flurry at Hanford, we had 100 employees in our department. About 50 editors and about 50 word processors. But as time went on, the editors started editing online, and then we didn’t need word processors. Originally we would edit with a red pen, and then the word processors would type in all of our changes. But that morphed into just editing online. I absolutely loved my job. For 27 years, I worked with engineers and scientists and technical people. I felt like it brought me closer to my husband, because I had no technical background at all. But I had very good communication skills and had studied three other languages, and so I have a lot of good ideas about how English should be spoken and written. And really enjoyed doing that for 27 years. Franklin: 27 years. So then you retired in 2005? Janicek: No, I retired—he went to work in ’78; I went to work in ’80. So I retired December 2007. Franklin: Okay. And how many different contractors did you work for? Janicek: Well, when I originally came, we both worked for Rockwell. And in fact I worked on the Rockwell proposal when their contract was up. And that was a fascinating experience, because I got to work with national vice presidents of Rockwell. We spent the last three months at a secret facility in Downy, California putting the proposal together. I got to walk through a mockup of the shuttle—the space shuttle that they had built. Oh, now I forgot the question. Franklin: The different contractors. Janicek: Oh, yes, yes, yes. So after Rockwell ended up—it was a political thing, and Rockwell lost that contract. The contract went to Westinghouse and Boeing. Westinghouse was already here, but they won the larger contract that Rockwell had. And then the computer functions, including the editing and the graphics and all of the communication things were given to Boeing as a subcontractor to Westinghouse. So then my second employer was Boeing Computer Services. And then the next eight years or so later, the contract was up again, and that was when they went to about 13 different contractors, half of them inside the wall so to speak, and half of them outside. And at that time I went to work for—my job was still the same, and all of my management was the same, but it was just a different name on the paychecks for the company that owned us, and that was Lockheed Martin. And I was still working for Lockheed Martin when I retired. Franklin: How had Richland changed from when you had graduated to when you came back and began to work for Hanford? Janicek: Well, first of all, when I came back, a lot of the business had moved to Columbia Center, and there were empty buildings, and aging businesses in downtown Richland. It had spread out a lot in all directions. People were living in West Richland and in South Richland and in North Richland and all over the place. And that’s just Richland. I mean, Kennewick grew enormously; Pasco has grown enormously. So I had to kind of get used to driving and living in a much bigger city. And I have to laugh at myself, because even today, I mostly drive—I have it in my mind, a skeleton of the roads that I used when we lived here, when I first got my driver’s license in high school and drove around the Tri-Cities. And I kind of stick to those roads, because they’re the ones I know the best, and you know, they’re my old favorites. But one of the things I noticed is that a lot of people moved into the Tri-Cities who didn’t necessarily work for Hanford. And so you didn’t have that little small town, we’re-all-in-this-together feeling. You know, when people first came to Richland to work at Hanford, as I said, there were no grandparents, no relatives. We all kind of stuck together because nobody knew anybody; we all came as strangers and we came from all over the country. And so there was a real closeness. And I see that in the older classes that write into the online Richland Bomber Sandstorm every day, the alumni newsletter. By the time my kids were in high school and graduating, a lot of that closeness was gone. You didn’t know everybody in your neighborhood; you didn’t know everybody in your church if you went to church; you didn’t know all the kids in your classroom; you didn’t necessarily know the parents; you didn’t know whether your friends had younger or older brothers and sisters. It just was a lot more socially scattered, I would call it. One of the things I’m pleased about is there’s a lot more diversity in the Tri-Cities now. You have people from all parts of the world, all races, colors, creeds, religions. Which is really good. I have to laugh at my kids, because we made sure they grew up without any prejudices. They have had friends—they’re all adults now in their 40s. They have had friends of all different colors, races, and creeds. It tickles me to death that we succeeded in raising them that way, because it’s only right. What else is different about the Tri-Cities? Well, every day I open the paper and I read about businesses I didn’t know were there. All the years I worked at Hanford, I didn’t have time to go driving around and shopping and looking around. So I—there are dozens and dozens of restaurants I’ve never been to. One of the things that really confuses me is, because the Tri-Cities has grown so rapidly, there are many, many, many neighborhoods that I’ve never heard of the street names before. And when I hear about something being on a certain street, I have no idea where that street is. I have to get out the phone book and hope I can find it on the map. And I’ve also noticed that there are—in the old days, there was a lot more respect for Hanford than there is now. There are a lot of people in the Tri-Cities who are very anti-Hanford. They think either it’s evil or—well, it’s dangerous. That’s always true. We had—when I lived—when I worked at Hanford, we had a really good safety culture. We had safety drills, we knew what all the different sirens meant, whether they meant shelter-in-place or get out and run for your life. What’s going on and what are you supposed to do about it. I think some of that safety culture is lost, because the people who lived and worked here forever have been laid off or have retired or moved on one way or another. We don’t have that close confidence anymore that we’re all doing the right thing for the right reasons, and keeping each other safe. Some of that has been lost, and I see sometimes that people—new hires come in—and I saw this when I was working there—that sometimes new hires would come in, and they wouldn’t take safety as seriously as we thought they should. And, you know, once in a while somebody does something careless that gets them in trouble. There were very strict rules, and I edited a lot of those safety documents about procedures: how you did things, how you had to do things, double-checks and triple-checks on things that sometimes people kind of rolled their eyes and thought, oh, yeah, here we go. But in fact, those things kept you safe if you followed them correctly. Franklin: It only takes one accident to— Janicek: Yes. Franklin: Do you think that that record of safety or the view of safety and the approach to safety changed as Hanford’s mission changed from one of production to a little more kind of opaque mission of cleanup? Janicek: I don’t think so, because the people actually involved in the cleanup or, like me, I was reading about all of the dangers in all of the cleanup as I was editing the documents. I think that a lot of us were always impressed with how dangerous it could be and how close we were to somebody goofing up and causing an accident. And certainly, I think right before we came here was when they had the McCluskey incident where Harold McCluskey was badly exposed. It’s just astounding to me how well they were able to clean him up and keep him alive and how long he lived, and he actually died of a condition that he had before the accident ever happened. And that actually boosted my confidence that they were doing all the right things. I’ve been in buildings—I had a Q clearance for a while—I’ve been in building that were very restricted and—not passwords, but keypads and patrol and safety people and intelligence people and all kinds of things to try and prevent terrible things from happening. Whether it was just luck or whether it was good management, those things, for the most part, didn’t happen. I mean, Harold McCluskey was the only one—there have been some accidents where people have fallen and died or have been badly injured. Or I remember one time when they were cutting into a pipe that they didn’t—either they didn’t have the correct information or they didn’t take it seriously. And they cut into this pipe that was supposed to be empty and harmless, and it was full of hot burning steam. It hit these two guys right in the face. I don’t remember if they lived or not; I’m suspecting maybe they didn’t. But I’ve—that was a few years ago when—I just don’t remember now. Many of us have always been aware of the potential for accidents. Sometimes people coming in from other places, if they didn’t work in dangerous situations before, they had to adjust their thinking or they might get in trouble if they—every once in a while, either a person or a company self-reports that we screwed up and didn’t do something right. And they don’t do that often enough. I mean, we have whistleblowers with personal issues, and we have whistleblowers with true concerns and who have honestly seen something that needs to be corrected. I’m sure it’s very difficult to keep all of that in mind. We recently toured B Reactor, which was a fascinating experience. When you look at that huge, big thing and all of those fuel rods. And if you think about what little, innocent thing could have happened or some switch accidentally flipped and what it could have caused. You know, we all remember Chernobyl. I worked—I was in a volunteer group called the Hanford Family that was formed when they were shutting down N Reactor and it was about the same time that Chernobyl happened. A lot of people were really scared and concerned that the same thing could happen at Hanford. So I became their editor and communications person for this group. And one of the things I did was research and interview an expert and find out why it couldn’t happen here. And one of the things was the difference between boiling water reactors, BWR, and pressurized water reactors, PWR. And what they did at Chernobyl, you couldn’t do here. The reactor would not let you do it or it would shut down. And how these guys had overridden their own safety controls. Again, they didn’t take safety seriously enough or they didn’t understand the principles behind what they were doing and what they were causing. It was a terribly frightening time. But I published this lovely three-fold pink brochure about why Chernobyl can’t happen here, what’s different about our reactors from—and then we were just down to N Reactor and the power reactor, the Hanford Generating Station at Energy Northwest. It was an interesting experience to learn that stuff and to put it in language that regular people could understand and to hand it out at functions. We went to a fair in Yakima; we had a couple of things—big—I don’t know—exhibitions or shows that occurred in the Tri-Cities, and we had our little booth and handed out our information and told people about why that couldn’t happen here. That was an interesting experience. For a non-technical person, I appreciated getting information and putting it into a form that regular folks who didn’t work at Hanford or have any technical background could understand. I have no idea how effective the brochure was. But it was interesting to do. Franklin: Interesting. Did you do any other public relations work when you—at your job at Hanford? Or was that a— Janicek: Well, most of the time, I was editing big reports. I started after a very short period—I worked for several years with the BWIP project—Basalt Waste Isolation Project. That was the concept where we were going to bury the waste deep in the basalt. I first edited and then managed the editors who edited the environmental restoration—no, environmental assessment document and the—oh, goodness. Now I’ve forgotten what it was called. Two different versions, one of them was six volumes long about how we were going to safely contain the waste, and some of it had to do with Nevada, which has since [LAUGHTER] In fact, a lot of the waste was going to go to Nevada, and Nevada shut that off. I did have a very interesting experience. I was on a national committee that worked with DOE orders and directives. It had to do with information management, because Hanford and the other government facilities that did things nuclear had to send copies of their reports to Oak Ridge, Tennessee, where they were kept and managed by the government. Some of them were classified and some were not. Most were not. This group would get together sometimes once a year, sometimes two or three times, and go over the DOE directives and bring them up to date on how to manage all this information. And I ended up writing parts of a DOE directive and editing other parts. I think you can still get those online. And I can open that up and see my very own words there. It kind of tickles me to see that. That was a really interesting project. And I got to go see—I got to go to Bethesda, Maryland and see where all of the energy reactors, like the one that we have at Energy Northwest—how they have to report in—I don’t know—I think every hour to let them know that everything’s all right. And I got to sit at this huge, big console where all of these Hanford and Oak Ridge and Argonne in Illinois and WIPP project in New Mexico and the Nevada Test Site and—anywhere there was a reactor, all the lights flashing and the buttons and the hourly reporting in. They actually monitor that to be sure that nothing—there are not going to be any surprises or any Chernobyls. That was kind of an interesting thing to see. Franklin: Oh, cool. Janicek: It was. Franklin: Is there anything that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to talk about in your interview? Janicek: Oh, I remember the Columbia River floods. Before we had all the dams and maybe even before the dikes were built—I’m not sure when they were built. The year before we moved to Richland, I lived—we lived in Vancouver, Washington. And there was a little community on the floodplain between Vancouver and Portland on the Columbia River called Vanport. When the river flooded, the spring of ’48, the water came up—maybe to the roof lines of those—it was low income housing and I suspect it was for guys who had just gotten out of World War II and were trying to build their lives and they had young families. The flooding was—it was just really terrible. I remember that and the pictures, partly because my father was one of many people who volunteered to patrol against looting. They would go out at night in motorboats. And he had a pistol that he kept for years. [LAUGHTER] We knew where it was hidden, but we never told our folks that we knew. [LAUGHTER] And we never touched it. Because they had to evacuate everybody, of course. And I have no idea whether people died or were injured during that flooding. But one of the memorable aspects of it was that there was a Jantzen Knitting Mill in that same area. And Jantzen’s old logo was of a woman in a one-piece bathing suit and a swimming cap diving. And she was—it was a huge sign and it was on top of the Jantzen building, and when the flooding came, the Jantzen Knitting Mills flooded and she looked like she was diving into the water in the flood. It was just really cool! [LAUGHTER] It was a picture they showed all over the United States. So then the next year, we came to Richland in the spring of ’49 and people were all talking about the ’48 flood and how bad it was. But I remember a couple of floods that were just about as bad after we moved here. At that time, the only way to get between Richland and Kennewick was on what we called the old river road, which goes through Columbia Park now. And so that road completely flooded. You couldn’t get through there. So leaving Richland, you would have to drive south over the hills and there were just—I don’t know, farm roads, probably—and go all the way around to get to south Kennewick and then come back into Kennewick. And even worse if you had to go to Pasco. Because the flooding really messed things up. And then some of those river floods would pick up a lot of trees and limbs from the shoreline, as the—and they would have rattlesnakes on them. For some reason, because of how the Columbia River turns when it gets to what was then called Riverside Park and is now called Howard Amon, a lot of those trees and tree limbs would lodge into the bank and all of the sudden we had rattlesnakes all over the park. So that was kind of interesting. [LAUGHTER] Scary! Opportunity for people to go out and see snakes or capture snakes or get rid of them, because rattlesnakes are serious business. But that was one of the things I remember about some of the problems with climate that we had in the good old days. Franklin: The good old days. Janicek: Oh, goodness. What else do I remember? Franklin: Did you go to any of the Atomic Frontier Days? Janicek: Oh! Yes! Well, especially after we moved to McMurray and I was going to Jefferson School, because Jefferson was right across from the Uptown area and I walked that area every day, knew it very well. And we would have parades for Atomic Frontier Days on George Washington Way. And in the really old days, when there was still a Camp Hanford in North Richland, that parade included—I remember a huge, big—I think it was called Red Dog—looked like a missile or a rocket or something. And then there were some smaller rockets, weapons. And they would haul them through town as part of the parade. And that was kind of fun and interesting to see, because my dad didn’t work at Hanford and wasn’t involved with the military. So that was all new to me and fascinating to see. They had a beard-growing contest. I think the Richland Atomic Frontier Days were usually in August and all the guys would grow beards for the month of August, and they had—I don’t know, some things for kids to do and things for adults to do, and clowns and a few floats. You know, you always had a Miss Atomic Frontier Days, which later became Miss Tri-Cities. That was a rather special event that happened. People would go by and throw candy on all the kids—kids would be there with their tricycles. We would decorate our tricycles with crepe paper strips, or put playing cards in the wheels so they would go click, click, click when the wheel went around and decorate. Sometimes they would decorate up the wagons and put wagons behind the tricycles. So we’d have a lot of tricycles and some bicycles lining the streets of George Washington Way as the parade went by. That was a fun thing to do. Franklin: Neat. Janicek: Yeah. Franklin: Well, Stephanie, thank you so much for talking with us today and sharing your stories about growing up in Richland and working at Hanford. They were wonderfully detailed and I really appreciate it. Janicek: Oh, well, thank you. I love to think back to the old days and just reading the online Sandstorm everyday kind of tweaks my memory and—old teachers and old friends, and like to pass these things on to my kids who grew up in such a different time and they don’t understand about being afraid the Russians were going to bomb you. [LAUGHTER] Some of the other things that went on that led to me being who I am today and led to Richland being what it is today. And I enjoy talking about it, and I realize that because of my father’s position, not as part of Hanford, but very much as a part of a community, that I have a lot of great memories. Because I’m fortunate to have a good memory, I still remember a lot of people’s names, a lot of businesses’ names, a lot of things that went on. When my father was on the school board, there was a little town and school at Mattawa, which—and those people served—that was when they were building Priest Rapids Dam and Wanapum Dam. So the school board, once a year, would get special, special, special permission to drive—they probably were escorted—to drive through the Hanford Site and go out to Mattawa and they would have one school board session that the teachers and the parents could attend who lived at Mattawa because they had no way of getting in to town for it, and that was part of the Richland School District. Now, today, Mattawa’s completely gone. I mean, everybody left and the buildings are pretty much all gone and doesn’t exist anymore. But I always thought that was very nice and very thoughtful that they arranged to be able to go out there once a year to meet with the staff and the families and see—address their concerns for educating the kids. Franklin: Yeah. Neat. Interesting. Well, thank you. Janicek: Welcome. Franklin: Okay. Vargas: That it? All right. <a href="https://youtu.be/js2YwuGWbrw">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:12:24 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1949-1960 1978-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1980-2007 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Grover Dawson Jim Richards Sid Lanter’s Stanfield Parker George Anderson John Meyers Harold McCluskey Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephanie Janicek Description An account of the resource An interview with Stephanie Janicek conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01-24-2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/28">Stephanie Janicek, Oral History Metadata</a> B Reactor Boeing Cat Dam Desert Energy Northwest Event Hanford Kennewick N Reactor Park River Rivers School Sport Sun swimming Tank Farm Tank Farms War Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F180660234e109a77b4340610c4e50f43.jpg 3816611a7f7cbd88b1b5d25e8b651ee9 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fc9ba08478b7c6707489551cbfcf22ffa.mp4 8ba37550abf1599a853424689260db35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Buckingham Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Northwest Public Television | Buckingham_Steve </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Robert Bauman: We're going to go ahead and start if that's all right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Steve Buckingham: Okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: So if we could start by just having you say your name and spell it for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Okay. It's John Stevens Buckingham is the full name, and it's S-T-E-V-E-N-S, B-U-C-K-I-N-G-H-A-M, just like the palace. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: All right. Thank you. And today's date is November 13 of 2013-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: November 13, 19--2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: 2013. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: 2013. [LAUGHTER] I'm still in the last century. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: And my name’s Bob Bauman, and we're doing this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So if we could start maybe by having you tell us how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, when you arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Okay. Well, first of all, I'm a native Washingtonian. I was born in Seattle, grew up in Pacific County. Went to Washington--graduated from high school in 1941, and went to Washington State College, at that time, in chemical engineering. Well, of course you know the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th of that year. I was able to finish off my first year at Washington State, and came back, the second year, the sophomore year, there were just mobs of people on campus recruiting for military. I tried several of them. I tried to get into the Navy V-12 program, but my eyes were not good enough. But I was able to get into an Air Corps program that they were looking for meteorologists. So I signed up for that. I had to get my dad to give me permission, because I was only 18 at the time. [LAUGHTER] But I was able to finish my sophomore year. I had just begun my freshman, my first semester, and I had just started the semester, my second semester, when I got the call to report to active duty. And the program that I had signed up for was this pre-meteorology program. And actually, it was kind of a neat situation. I was sent to Reed College in Portland, Oregon. And it was a little bit of a cultural shock, coming from a rather conservative Washington State to go to Reed College. We could smoke in classes. We could go up to a girl's room in the dormitory. [LAUGHTER] And they sang rather interesting songs on campus, too. [LAUGHTER] But Reed has very high scholastic standards, and I think the best math professor I ever had, I had at Reed College. But we went--we just had almost normal college classes: math, and physics, and geography. It was an interesting experience. Well, after a year at Reed, and also being in the military--because I think we must have had about--we had, what, two flights of cadets there, and we were all in uniform, of course. And after one year they decided they had enough meteorologists, so most of us were looking around for another program to get into. And I applied to go into communications, because I had a lot of physics background by then, and was accepted in that. They sent me to—oh, gosh, I can't even think. It was North Carolina. It was the first time I'd ever been down to the South, which was another cultural shock. [LAUGHTER] To see separate drinking fountains for black--colored and white. That's where we went through, essentially, Officers Candidate School. But the communications part of it was spent at Yale University in New Haven. That was about—oh, I think that was about six months that I was there going through communication. We had to learn all about radio and communications. But there is where I got my--I was commissioned, then, as a second lieutenant in the Air Corps. And about the time that I--just before I finished there, one of my friends had gone up to Yale University--to Harvard, because they were looking for people to work in radar. Well, why not? [LAUGHTER] So I applied, and was sent up to New Haven--not New Haven, up to Harvard. And there we went through a very intensive training on electronics, getting all the background on electronics. I used to kind of laugh. If you dropped a pencil on the floor went to drop to pick it up, you'd be behind three months. [LAUGHTER] It was really intensive training. And after that training, then they sent--most of us went downtown in Boston and worked on the top floor of a building that overlooked the harbor, developing radar they were working on. And that was really kind of interesting. But that was kind of temporary. That was just to give us some practical experiences. So that--then when that part of the training was over with, they assigned me to the 20th Air Force, which was the big bombers that were getting ready to go to Japan, and sent me to Boca Raton, Florida. And that was kind of another goof-off. We were just--we had to go on training exercises, flight training exercises once a week. So I got to fly all over Florida, all over the Caribbean. [LAUGHTER] Just goof-off things. It's really kind of almost embarrassing, because we'd go fishing and stuff like that on the boat, because they'd always had to send a boat out in case a plane went down in the ocean, and so we could go out on the boat and fish. While I was at Boca Raton, then the Japanese surrendered, and the war was over. Well, what are they going to do with all of us that had been trained? [LAUGHTER] I went out to Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they were bringing B-29s back from overseas. And all we did was remove the radar equipment from B-29s and stash it someplace. Well, I guess they decided they really didn't need us anymore. So I was able to be discharged and get back to the Washington State College to pick up my second semester sophomore year. Well, I had accumulated so many credits in going to these other colleges. So I went and talked to the dean, and he says, well, why don't you just switch to chemistry? Get your degree in chemistry or general, and then come back for a master's degree. Well, I had been on the East Coast for two years, and I did not like it back there. Being a--my mom and dad lived out in Pacific County yet, and I wanted to get home. I had two job offers when I graduated from college. One was in Troy, New York, and the other was here. General Electric was--had on the campus quite a bit of recruiting people, because they were getting ready to develop a new separation process called the REDOX process. And they were looking for people with scientific background, chemistry and so forth, to work there. Well, I grabbed the opportunity, and I arrived here on the 26th of July in 1947. I remember the day. [LAUGHTER] And that was really--it was very interesting, because Richland was--GE was really operating under the old DuPont system yet. It was the organization was still the one that DuPont set up during construction. We were in the technical department. And I was sent out to the 100 Areas, waiting for my clearance to come through, and we were just analyzing the water that went through the piles. And then when my clearance came through, they sent me to the 300 Area where they were developing this new separation process, this REDOX process, and we were doing the analytical control for REDOX process. And that was--of course, the development was using just uranium and other chemicals that didn't have any of the radioactive, really highly radioactive material other than uranium. But it was really very interesting, because a whole new line of metallurgy was being developed there. The metallurgy in—old metallurgy was stuff like smelting, and electrolytic, and stuff like that. Well, the chemical separation process they used out at Hanford was a carrier precipitation process, which did not allow them to recover the uranium. So this is why they were developing this new solvent extraction process, so they could cover both plutonium and uranium simultaneously. That was really quite a remarkable new metallurgical process that they were really developing here at Hanford, because how do you contact organic and aqueous phases, and stuff like that? And what kind of a contact? They had all kinds of ones that they were working with there in the 300 Area, and it was really very interesting. We were doing all the analysis for it. And then I was there maybe a little over a year, and they decided we needed to have a little experience with “real” material. [LAUGHTER] So they sent several of us of to be shift supervisors, out of the 200 Area, and the 222-T and 222-V Plants. That's where we got to work with real material. And it was just another training program. They were still--they had begun construction on the REDOX Plant. And about that time, then there was a little bit of an accident down in Texas, where a ship loaded with ammonium nitrate blew up and practically wiped out the city of Texas City. [LAUGHTER] And that was what we were using as a salting agent in the REDOX process. Well, that set the REDOX process into a big delay. What are you going to do with--we can't use ammonium nitrate. It's just plain too hazardous. They began looking at new salting agents at that time, and it took, oh, maybe six months or so before they finally came up with a new salting agent. Well, we just kind of fiddled around a little bit out in the labs. They were closing the business phosphate process labs. They combined them into just one lab. So several of us just kind of floated around doing other work that was kind of related to the REDOX process. For a while, I was in standards, where we were making radioactive standards they used to control the counting machines and all that kind of stuff. And it was not that interesting. Well, I had an opportunity then to go into an organization that was still there in the old 3706 Building in 300 Area. It was called process chemistry. And they were the ones who were working on the chemistry of the REDOX process. It was just--to me, it was just an absolute perfect fit, because I liked to monkey around with experiments and do research type stuff. And it was a neat bunch of people that we were working with. Some of them I still kind of chortle when I think of some of the stuff they pulled. [LAUGHTER] But I was able to move into that, and I was the third person to move out to 222-S, which was the laboratory for the REDOX process. And that's where we were, for our final laboratory was out there. And I stayed in that most of my working career. I did take a couple years to go over to work on writing the waste management tech manual, because they were--that was another process. We got to work in every new process that came along. We concentrated a lot on the REDOX process, because that was new. And then that chemist down in the Hanford laboratories discovered tributyl phosphate, so that opened up the whole new PUREX process. That had to be developed. And all the chemistry that went in to that development, we worked with. And then they decided they had to do something with the waste, and there was an outfit came in that was going to separate out fission products out of the waste. And we were going to have a big fission product market. Well, we separated out a lot of strontium-90 and cesium-137. And the strontium-90 was all right, because they could use that as a heat source for places where they didn't have much sunshine, deep space probes and so forth. The cesium, unfortunately, the capsule we set someplace leaked, and we had a little bit of embarrassment. That had to be cleaned up. So Isochem had taken--that was when the companies had separated into all these different companies. And the waste management just kind of petered out. We still had waste management we had to do something with. So I continued just working on it, but went back to the process chemistry laboratory. I finally ended up manager there for several years until I retired. But it was a real experience, that's all I've got to say. I feel like I was very fortunate in being able to work with so much new technology. And I think one of the more interesting ones was, we were recovering--out of our waste, we were recovering neptunium-237, and I had set up a small demonstration process in the laboratory. And for three years, I was the total source of neptunium-237 in the whole United States. [LAUGHTER] And that 237, when we first started doing it, we actually would convert the 237 to an oxide, and mix it with aluminum, and make a fuel element out of it that we stuck in B reactor to make plutonium-239. Plutonium-239 is a very unique isotope of plutonium. It is non-fissionable, but if you get a ball of it about the size of a golf ball, it's generating so much heat, it'll actually glow red. So they use it as a heat source for deep space probes. So we were working on snap programs and all this is really fascinating new technology. And I just feel very fortunate that I had been able to have a finger in some of this stuff that's really far out. We were looking--you know that one time they were going to convert that big building next to the FFTF into a facility just to process plutonium-238. That was another program that didn't ever develop. But we kind of had fingers in just an awful lot of stuff over the years. Some of the stuff I kind of laugh about. There was a--they developed silver reactors to remove iodine from our off gases coming out of the plant, because of the iodine contamination. And one of the silver reactors at the PUREX Plant blew up. [LAUGHTER] Well, it was not serious. It was all contained. But we had to try to figure out, why did that darn reactor blow up? Why did they have a reaction in there? And I still remember one of the old chemists, Charlie Pollock. He was the one who was in charge of it. But I still remember him making mixtures and putting it outside the lab door on a hot plate and standing behind the door to see it, was he going to pop? [LAUGHTER] We did an awful lot of innovation like that. It was just really--I think we did have a good time mucking with this stuff. I jokingly say that--every Monday we would have what they called a process meeting where the chemists and the process engineers would get together to discuss what we're going to do this week. And I always said we just got together to see how we're going to screw the plant up this week. [LAUGHTER] There was so much new technology, and every week somebody would come up with a new idea. They were the biggest pilot plants in the world, really. [LAUGHTER] Both the REDOX one and the PUREX one, just developing these processes. The whole--you know, when we first came here, we were living in dormitories. And the men's dormitory was on one side of town, and the women's was on the other side of town. We'd meet in the cafeteria. [LAUGHTER] And I still recall, when we were working shift works, we would gather in the cafeteria after swing shift, and we'd still be in there talking, or doing something with the guys who would come in for breakfast to go to work on day shifts. [LAUGHTER] Graveyard was always hell, because you didn't have time to do anything but sleep and eat. [LAUGHTER] And swing shift was kind of bad because the movie house, the movies didn't start until 4:00, and so we could go to any movies or anything. But it was tolerable. We formed an organization called the dorm club, where we went on--made a lot of camping trips, had a few beer busts. I tell about, I was social chairman for a while, and I found a big bargain on beer, Pioneer Beer. It was made by the breweries that they opened when they were doing construction during the war. It was not very good beer. I think I had five cases hidden under my bed in the dorm for weeks until I got rid of it. [LAUGHTER] But most of us met our spouses at that time. And it was really a unique situation early on in the late 40s and early 50s, because almost all of us had been in the same boat. We had started college. We'd been called into active duty during the war. We'd finished active duty and returned to college to finish our degrees. So we all had had the same type of experiences. Some of them were pretty hairy. In fact, I well remember one of my roommates was telling about being in the Philippines, and sitting on his bunk during one time, and said a big old snake crawled up between his legs. [LAUGHTER] I think I would have been of the roof and never come back down if that had happened to me! [LAUGHTER] But you know we had all had similar experiences, and it was our first time, really, that we were making any money that we could do things with. We could buy cars, and bought cars. So we went on just all sorts of trips. We learned--most of us learned to ski. And those ski trips, that was still was fairly new in the State of Washington. There was a rope tow up in the Blue Mountains at Tollgate. And, oh gosh, I think a season ticket cost $5. [LAUGHTER] And we would—went down, and I think we initiated the chairlift at Timberline, down at Mount Hood. We went to a lot of places just when they were first opening. So, in fact-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: How long did you live in the dorms, then? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, let's see. I lived in the dorms several years, and then an acquaintance was able to get an apartment over on George Washington Way, and he asked if I wanted to share this apartment with him. You had to share. [LAUGHTER] You couldn't just live in one by yourself. So I then lived in that apartment for a couple of years, until I got married. Then we had a B house. [LAUGHTER] And that's where we were living when they began selling Richland out. And we were junior tenants in the B house, and way down on the move list, so there wasn't much chance of getting a decent house. My wife and I bought a lot over in Kennewick. And we didn't have much money, but we had a lot of energy, and we did an awful lot of building our own house. I think--I'm still living in it 54 years later. [LAUGHTER] So—but it's been--Oh, I don't regret a day of the work that we've done here. It's been challenging and interesting. After I retired from full time, I did a lot of part time work. I helped—was declassifying documents and I was a tour director, taking people on tours of Hanford. And I worked at the old Science Center down on the Post Office, before that became CREHST over there, where it is now. And the Visitors Center out at Energy Northwest, I worked there. And the FFDF Visitors Center. So it's been a wonderful life, really. [LAUGHTER] Fun. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: I wonder, when you arrived in--was it July 26th of 1947? What was your first impression of Richland, or of the place here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Well! When I graduated from college, when my folks came over to graduate, and we came back through here. And I still remember going on the old highway, looking over, and seeing the stack of the old heating plant that used to be downtown in Richland, and thinking, oh gosh, do I really want to come here? And it was a little different. Of course I had worked in very highly classified stuff during radar during the war. So I was used to the classification. But Richland was really different. You just didn't talk about your work at all. You kind of knew what your buddies did. And there was the separation technology people, there was the pile technology people, the fuel technology people. You kind of knew what they did, but that's all. You didn't really know any details. And you never talked, we never talked about it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: You talked about the chemistry of the REDOX process. Could you explain sort of what that means, in terms of REDOX, what the process was? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Yeah. The fuel is dissolved, of course. They take the jackets off with sodium hydroxide, and then you dissolve the fuel in nitric acid. And then they used this solvent, it’s an organic solvent. The stuff we used was Hexone, for what the chemical name is methyl isobutyl ketone, which is a paint thinner. And to make sure that we could extract, this Hexone would extract uranium and plutonium from aqueous phase into this organic phase. Well, you needed to add a salting agent to be able to improve that extraction. These were done in what we called columns. They were packed columns. They used some stuff called Raschig rings, and they were about 40 feet long. The feed would come about the middle of the column. The organic things would come in at the bottom of the column. And then there'd be a scrubbing agent came in up at the top of the column, and that would scrub some of this stuff out. Oh, it was a complicated process. Then we would oxidize the plutonium--or we would reduce the plutonium through a three valence state, and that wouldn't extract. And that was the separation column. And then you'd have to run both of these stuff through similar columns to clean it up. It was—really, it was kind of a marvelous process. It was a whole new metallurgical processing. It was something that hadn't been done, really, until we did here at Hanford. So just developing all these little techniques was quite a chore. And it worked! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Then you said you were shift supervisor in the 200 Area? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Yeah, in the laboratories. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: In the laboratories. So what sort of work did that involve at that point? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, that was, then, that process chemistry that we were doing. But whenever there was an upset with the columns, there was all sorts of things, like the columns would occasionally flood, and they would just emulsify, and they couldn't get the organic and the stuff to separate. But why was that happening? And things like that. Sometimes the chemistry would get off a little bit, or we would get a carryover for some reason or other. It just—it worked, and it worked very well. But we were able to recover both the uranium and the plutonium. So we weren't putting uranium out in those old waste tanks. Then, you know, when we developed the PUREX process, we used the tributyl phosphate in a more dilute phase to go back in and recover that uranium we had stored from the old bismuth phosphate separation process. So you name it, we did it! [LAUGHTER] I kind of jokingly say that--you know, when DuPont was building this place, the war manpower boards told them where they could recruit, and they did a lot of recruiting in the South, because that was not highly industrialized. So that's why quite a few Southerners came up here to work. Well, Southerners are rednecks. [LAUGHTER] They can make anything work. And I really, I sincerely think it's a lot of the ability of those people to be able to do things, why this place even succeeded. And when you stop to think that that original construction and everything took place in 14, 16 months, it's just mind boggling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Given the sort of materials you were working with out there, why don't you talk about safety issues? Was safety emphasized quite a bit? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, you betcha. You know, DuPont was a stinker on safety because they made gunpowder. You've heard the story about them getting criticized for making big profits doing gunpowder during World War I. So when they took over the contract here, they said they'd do it for cost plus $1, and they only received $0.80. [LAUGHTER] I think that's kind of an interesting story in itself. But DuPont was really--boy, if you saw something was unsafe, that was corrected right now. You didn't need to continue working in the unsafe condition at all. And I kind of laugh a little bit about. I think we were safer out at the plant than we were in our own homes. We'd have these dumb safety meetings. Once a week you had to go through a safety meeting. Sometimes they were boring as hell. [LAUGHTER] But the other thing was that when we didn't have any accidents for a certain length of time, we'd get a prize. I still have some of the prizes we won over the years. That was another thing. When GE was taking over, we could get GE--we could buy GE products at employee cost. You wouldn't dare buy a frying pan unless it was GE. [LAUGHTER] So there were many little advantages. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: I wonder, of the different things you worked on at Hanford, what were some of the most challenging aspects of the work you did, and what was some of the most rewarding? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, I think one of the most rewarding ones was this neptunium-237. That was really a fun project, because about once a month we'd have to start up this little pilot plant, and you had to run it 24 hours a day for about a week to separate out this 237. That was a very challenging and very rewarding project, because it had a lot of interest. That, and the fact that it was also highly classified. They kept changing the classification, I think every month, you'd have a new name for it. One time it was Palmolive. [LAUGHTER] Let's see, what were some of the others? Birch bark. You never knew what you were supposed to call it from one month to the next, because it was a very high-priority thing. Also, when we had--they begin shipping most of it back to Savannah River, because Savannah River could make the 238 easier than we could here at Hanford. But I would separate out this 237, and I'd have to deliver personally to the mint car. That was the car that took the plutonium down to Los Alamos. I'd have to take that 237 up in a cask and put it on that mint car. [LAUGHTER] So there were a lot of little things like that. Some of the challenges, we had some technical problems over the years that were real problems. Like we had a ruthenium problem out at the REDOX process that was a little bit of a challenge. We spewed some plutonium out on the ground out there. And plutonium is kind of a nasty stuff, because it doesn't absorb. It migrates towards the river fairly fast. So there were a few of those little things that were a bit of a problem. Also, then, during the Cold War, when production was so critical—you know you just didn't shut down for hell or high water. And we were running out of waste storage space. We came up with a way we could treat the waste and make it crib-able, so we could put it just to a crib, an underground crib, like a dry well. And that was kind of a dumb thing to do. [LAUGHTER] But it was necessary, because we had to get plutonium out, somehow or other. And we didn't have waste storage space. It takes too long to build a waste tank. And some of the interesting little things is some of the crushers found that nice salty stuff down in the soil, and we had an awful lot of hot poop spread around in the desert at various places. [LAUGHTER] Some of those challenges were kind of challenging! We didn't get too involved in it, but somebody was getting involved in it, and we always knew who it was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: So the situation where you said that you sort of spewed a little bit of plutonium, was that at PUREX? What happened with that situation? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, they were recovering americium from the plutonium down at 234-5, and they had a criticality event down there. That was a very challenging situation. I happened to--the engineer who was in charge of that was a good friend. He was at a Boy Scout—at a heat down along the river, and they went down and got him, and brought him back, so we could do some work out there. But that was really kind of scary. That's the only really serious incident. That and Mr. McCluskey’s, when the glove box blew up in his face. And I always blame the union on that, because the union was being very stubborn about settling the strike, and that's why the column had sat with this acid on it for so long. Then when they started it up, it took off. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Are there any other incidents or things that happened during your time working at Hanford that really stand out to you? Humorous things, or serious. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: I can't think. I can think of several humorous situations that occurred, particularly when I was a punk kid supervisor out there in the 222-T Plant. We had quite a few women workers out there, and I swear, I think those women used lay awake at night to see how they could embarrass me. [LAUGHTER] And this one—the hot water tank was in the women's restroom, and it had a check valve in it. Well, the toilets were all these pressure-type toilets. And this one woman went in to use the toilet, and the check valve didn't check. She burned her bottom. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Oh, no. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: And I had to take her to first aid. And she was not at all hesitant about telling me exactly what had happened in detail. [LAUGHTER] I about died having to write up the accident report! Had employee been instructed on the job?, and stuff like that. [LAUGHTER] But I still chortle about that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Yeah. You talked earlier about how during the peak of the Cold War, there was focus on production, production. At some point, that leveled off, and there was sort of a decreased emphasis on production, and of course, eventually, a shift toward cleanup. But I wonder if that sort of shift away from really high production, how that impacted your work at all? Did that change? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: It didn't seem to change it an awful lot. Those are very complicated processes out there. There not just simple processes, and they seem to have a tendency to something always going wrong. Like we had a situation of the columns flooding. And it was detergents that was put in through the Columbia River, up in Spokane and Wenatchee, up above us. Our water treatment system didn't remove this detergent. It was a phosphate detergent, and there it came through with our water purification stuff that we were doing. I think it gave us a bit of a headache for a while, of why there were these columns flooding all the time, and little situations like that. They seemed to come up, they'd crop up at weird times. Or a piece of equipment would fail, and how do we do it. Just—if you ever go out to the area, as you pass the old PUREX Plant, there's a tunnel that comes from the end of the PUREX Plant almost out to the highway, and there's a vent out there. And that tunnel is full of equipment that failed in the PUREX Plant that they shoved it into this tunnel and left it there. That's got to be cleaned up someday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: I was going to ask you, President Kennedy came to visit in 1963 to dedicate the N Reactor. Were you present that day? Were you able to see-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, you betcha. They took us—anybody who wanted to go in a bus down to the place where they were going to have the dedication. My wife, and her sister, and my two kids came out. And I don't know how my daughter ever found me in that crowd down there, but she spotted me somehow or other. [LAUGHTER] We were so far back you could hardly see him. But that was the first time they actually allowed people to come on the project, too. So it was really—I think my wife and her sister said they sat for an hour waiting to get through the barricade before they could come out. They were both quite amazed at what they saw when they got out here. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] Right. And as you look back at all your years working at Hanford, how would you assess it as a place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, some of the companies were much better to work for than others. I really enjoyed working for General Electric, because that's the company I first came to work for here. And Arco was a good company to work for. Isochem was just kind of iffy. They were very small—and I don't--they didn't quite have their act together yet. Some of the other later companies, I thought were just, nah. That was one of the reasons I quit when I did. I quit a little early. I took retirement at 63, because I just couldn't stand the company that was here at that time. They knew how to build airplanes, but they didn't know how to run a chemical plant. That shouldn't be in here. I hope you edit that out. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: [LAUGHTER] You did talk earlier about some of the technology that you saw. I wonder, are there any other examples? Or you could talk about some of the new technology that you saw develop during this time you were there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, gosh, the technology was moving so fast. You know, they had this Fast Flux test--they built the Fast Flux Test Facility. That was all new technology. And the plutonium recycle reactors—that was all new technology. I'm just amazed at the technology that they were developing here. And it was all developed here. We didn't get a lot of credit for it, unfortunately. [LAUGHTER] And I feel kind of bad about that, because it was the cleverness of the people working here that developed some of this technology. Even up there in that--in what they called the old separation plant, the old bismuth phosphate plant, the design of the equipment in that is just very unique. It was the first time that high-level radiation radioactive material was being handled, and they had to come up with a technique of handling it. There was a crane operator--there was a big long crane that ran the whole length of that 800-foot building. He sat in a lead-lined cab behind a concrete parapet. The only thing he had was optics that he could see down into the cells. And how he could take those--you look into one of those cells down there, and it's like looking into a plate of spaghetti. There's so much junk in it, so much stuff in there, pipes. And all everything that comes in has to come through these connectors. And he, the crane operator, had to know which one he had to take off first to get in, and another one in behind it, or something. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Wow. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: And just the technology they went through, and the learning process. I don't know how anyone was ever to do it. I've talked to one old engineer that, fortunately enough, I could take on a tour one time. He came out here with DuPont during the early construction, and he worked on quite a bit of it. He was here, and they gave him a special tour. And I happened to be the one who took him around. It was one of the funnest days I had, because he told me all sorts of things about some of the stuff that he had worked on. He had helped design the cask carts that carried the fuel from the reactors up to the separation plants, and he knew the people who would design the connectors for the separation plants, and some of the design on the waste tanks. To me, some of the stuff that they were able to do here, it still just boggles my mind. There was an awful lot of smart people working on this place, that's all I've got to say. A lot smarter than me! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: One more question. I teach a course on the Cold War, and of course most of my students now were born after the Cold War ended. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: You know, I wonder, as someone who worked at a place like Hanford during the peak of the Cold War, what you would say to a young person who would have no memory of the Cold War at all, or much of an understanding, what it was like to work at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: It was a little scary, because we were surrounded by gun emplacements. And I still remember going home after shift one day, and there was some gun emplacements right at the bottom of the Two East Hill, and they were all raised, like they might be ready, had a warning or something. And you kind of wonder about that. And we went in, we always had to have these--in all of the buildings, we had supplies that we could hole up in case of an attack. And all of us had junk in our cars, an evacuation plan. I know my wife and I did. I had canned goods that I would put in the trunk of the car. And if we were attacked, she was to meet me at a certain places in Yakima, and we were going to head for the Willapa Hills. [LAUGHTER] The Willapa Hills are a very remote part of Pacific county. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Wow, so you did have preparations in place in case, because-- </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Yeah. And some people even built--there were a few bomb shelters built around. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Well, is there anything else about your work at Hanford, or your experience there that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to share? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Oh, gosh, there's so many things that went on. I could sit here and talk probably all afternoon about some of this stuff because new ideas would come up that I can't remember. Well, I can remember shortly after I had gotten into the laboratory down at 3706 Building, one of the women that I was working with, she and I did more uranium analysis in one shift than anybody had ever done. [LAUGHTER] We were very proud of that. We just hit every sample size as perfect. And it was--we just were boiling out uranium analysis like crazy. [LAUGHTER] I can't remember now, but it was--there were little incidences like that that were kind of fun. And for a while the coveralls that they were giving us had pockets on them to take the size. They were colored. And there were some of those women, I tell you. I like women, but I think some of those gals that used to work down there had a warped sense of humor. They loved to grab ahold of these pockets and rip. They'd rip the pockets off! Well, they came up behind me one time and grabbed the pockets, of and ripped, and the pockets didn't come off, but the whole seat came off. [LAUGHTER] That was when I was still single, and embarrassed very easily. And I had gotten a blue sock in with my white underwear. My shorts were blue! [LAUGHTER] Oh, they got such a kick out of my blue underwear! I could have slapped them, though. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Oh, that's quite a story. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: One of the things that we did, I think we were a lot closer. We worked closely with each other. And we'd have wonderful--we'd call them safety meetings in the tavern. [LAUGHTER] They were just--We'd have a lot--we had a lot of parties. But they don't seem to do that anymore. I don't know why. We were more like a big family, and if anything happened to somebody, like a death in the family, we would all rally around them and do things like that, like families did. And Richland was really a very close little community back then. If anybody got into trouble, boy, you sure knew it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Well, I want to thank you very much for coming in today, and sharing your memories and experiences. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: Well, I enjoyed doing it, because I think it was a very unique time in history. And I'm afraid that we're beginning to lose that, because my--now, I'm getting to the age where World War II veterans are dying off like flies. [LAUGHTER] So many of my friends have already gone, and it's just a little shocking. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Bauman: Right. Thank you, again, for coming in. I really appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX150736100"> Buckingham: You're very welcome. Thank you for asking me. </div> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:58:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 5273kbps Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area 222-T Plant 222-V Plant 222-S Laboratory Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) N Reactor B Reactor Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) 234-5 Building (Plutonium Finishing Plant) 400 Area / Fast Flux Test Facility Building 3706 Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1947-1987 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Pollock, Charlie Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steve Buckingham Description An account of the resource An interview with Steve Buckingham conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 13th, 2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-11: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Nuclear instruments & methods Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 200 Area 222-S Laboratory 222-T Plant 222-V Plant 234-5 Building (Plutonium Finishing Plant) 300 Area 400 Area Arco B Reactor Building 3706 DuPont Energy Northwest Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.) General Electric Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963 Kennewick (Wash.) N Reactor Plutonium Recycle Test Reactor (PRTR) Plutonium Uranium Extraction Plant (PUREX) Reduction-Oxidation Plant (REDOX) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7dd799360abfc66852f2e8bd64a904b2.JPG 2f19963384c5700bd5650f9f99cc92f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Buckingham Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: I’m just going to try to remember it— John Stevens Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: --as best as I can. Okay. Are we ready? Lori Larsen: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an interview with Steve Buckingham on February 21, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Steve about his experiences working, specifically at the T Plant, on the Hanford Site. And for the record, Steve, could you state and spell your full legal name for us? Buckingham: It’s John Stevens Buckingham. B-U-C-K-I-N-G-H-A-M. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: And you don’t need the John Stevens, but— Franklin: I suppose we could skip it. Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Just a quick recap, you did an oral history with us several years ago— Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: --where you talked about your life— Buckingham: At Hanford. Franklin: Your early life, and then your life at Hanford. So this is specifically will be about T Plant because we’re trying to gather as much information related to T Plant as we can, as there’s a push to include it, perhaps, in the Manhattan Project Historical Park, and bring some protective legislation on it and documents like a Historic American Engineering record and things like that. So, Steve, if I remember correctly, you came to the Hanford Site shortly after World War II. Buckingham: Right. Franklin: Correct? And tell me about how you got here. Buckingham: Well, I started at Washington State in 1941, right out of high school. Went from—I graduated from Raymond, Washington. And of course, the war started; the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor that fall or winter. I was able to finish my freshman year and my first semester my sophomore year. But after the war started, the campus was just overrun with people looking, trying to recruit candidates for different programs. I tried to get into several programs and finally got into one with the Air Corps; they were looking for future meteorologists. So I enlisted in the Air Corps. My mother wouldn’t sign off on me, because I was still only 17, but Dad signed and let me go ahead. Then just shortly after the second semester started, they called me to active duty and sent me down to Reed College in Portland for pre-meteorology. So I spent a year down there in Reed. Reed was kind of an interesting situation, coming from a rather conservative Washington State College, at that time, to Reed where you could smoke on campus, smoke in classrooms, go up and visit, go up into the girls’ dormitory anytime, very little restrictions. But it was an education, and I must say, Reed has a very fine education. I think the best. We took the standard classes we were taking. We took math, physics, oh, some history classes, and some literature classes. I was there for a year, and then the Air Corps decided they didn’t need any more meteorologists. So I applied again to communications in the Air Corps. They sent me to, oh, officer candidate school in Seymour Johnson Field, South Carolina and I was there for about four months. And then went up to Yale University where I went through communications and received a commission as a second lieutenant in communications in Air Corps. They were looking for people with a pretty good educational background, particularly in math and physics, because they were developing radar at the time. So I applied and they sent me from Yale up to Harvard where I went through a three-month course in electrical engineering. [LAUGHTER] And then transferred down to MIT, where I then worked developing radar for another six months before they finally sent me down to get ready. By then the war had ended. [LAUGHTER] They didn’t know what to do with me. So I ended up at Kirkland Field. All we were doing is bombers coming in from the—oh, retired bombers were coming in; we removed the radar equipment from the bombers before they put them into storage down in Arizona. And finally they let me go back to college. So I had a year-and-a-half of college to finish. And I got my degree with all sorts of majors. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And where did you finish your schooling? Buckingham: At Washington State. Franklin: And what was your degree in when you— Buckingham: My degree was what they called general. But I had majors in math, I had a major in physics, I had a major in chemistry. And a major in English. Franklin: Wow. Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Quite a renaissance man. Buckingham: Oh, yeah. But it was fun. I was able to graduate in 1947. Franklin: Okay, so kind of in the beginning of that GI boom. Buckingham: Yeah, the GIs were just starting to come back onto campus. And we came—I got a job here in the analytical laboratory. They were developing the REDOX process. Franklin: And, sorry, what year did you come to Hanford? Buckingham: 1947. Franklin: 1947. And your first job was at the analytical lab. Buckingham: Analytical lab. The REDOX process was really kind of a—it was a new innovation into the technology. Because it was a solvent extraction process, where the old bismuth phosphate process that was the original process developed from Seaborg’s laboratory experiments, was kind of—well, they couldn’t recover the—you know, when they irradiated the uranium in the reactors, they only made two or—I think it was four grams of plutonium for every pound of uranium that went into that reactor. Franklin: Yeah, that sounds about right. Buckingham: So it was—just wasn’t very—and that uranium went back to the waste storage tanks. So it was—they were beginning to try to look for a new way to also recover the uranium at the same time they were getting the plutonium out. We were—the engineers were working very hard on developing this REDOX process. And it was—unfortunately, they were using ammonium nitrate as a salting agent in the solvent extraction process when Texas City blew up. So—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m sorry, could you—I’m not familiar with that. Could you talk a little more about—they were using ammonium nitrate in the bismuth phosphate process? Buckingham: Yeah. That is what is called a salting agent, to help extract the uranium and the plutonium into this organic phase. The organic is methyl isobutyl ketone, was the extractant. The whole theory of it was we could extract the plutonium and uranium into this organic phase, and then in the next step, we could use—change the valence of plutonium and separate the plutonium from the uranium. It was a very good, clean process that was really—one of the very early solvent extraction processes ever developed. Well, this—they began constructing the REDOX plant out there and so the development work was kind of winding down, but they didn’t want to get rid of us, because they knew that we were going to be working on that REDOX process. Franklin: And the REDOX process, that was—was that specifically to recover the uranium and— Buckingham: And the plutonium. Franklin: And the plutonium. Was it to recover the uranium from the tanks, or was it to process new fuels? Buckingham: New fuel. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: All new fuel. Franklin: So it replaced bismuth phosphate. Buckingham: Yeah, we replaced the old bismuth phosphate process. Franklin: And what—that took place in the REDOX facility, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Not in the T Plant. Buckingham: Not in the old T Plant. But they needed to put us someplace, so they sent several of us out to being shift supervisors out at both the T Plant and the B Plant, which were identical plants. Franklin: Right. As well as—was the U Plant also identical to— Buckingham: U Plant was identical, but it was never used as a solvent extraction—as a facility for that. That came later. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. I’d like to back up. So you mentioned this ammonium nitrate that was used in bismuth phosphate. Was that also used in the REDOX process? Buckingham: That was the one that was used in the REDOX process. Franklin: Oh, in the REDOX process. Buckingham: The REDOX process. Franklin: Not in bismuth phosphate. Buckingham: No. Franklin: You’d mentioned Texas City explosion? Buckingham: Originally, the salting agent to help in the REDOX process to help extract the uranium and plutonium, they used what was called a salting agent. This is just to help push it into the organic phase. Well, the original salting agent we were using was ammonium nitrate. Ammonium nitrate—[LAUGHTER]—used in gunpowder. And there was this rather horrible accident down in Texas City that—so they had to begin looking for a new salting agent at that time. And that’s when they went from the ammonium nitrate to aluminum nitrate. Franklin: Hmm. Was aluminum nitrate more efficient, more stable, or both? Buckingham: Well, it was not explosive like ammonium nitrate. It was more stable. It worked very well. So they—but there was quite a little bit of work redeveloping the necessity of using the aluminum nitrate. So there was about a year delay in the startup of the REDOX process. And that’s when I was at T Plant. Now, the T Plant, it was kind of fun. We weren’t real hard-pressed because the Cold War hadn’t started yet. So it was kind of laidback then. The people who worked out there—we were working—it was three shifts a day, seven days a week. So it was a—I was on C shift. But it gave us experience working with real material out there, because we were still separating plutonium using the old bismuth phosphate process. Franklin: Oh, okay, good, that’s what I was going to ask you about that. So when you got there in ’47 and you were stationed at T Plant—while the REDOX process was in development, you were still processing with bismuth phosphate. Buckingham: Bismuth phosphate, yes. Franklin: I’m wondering if you can, as easy as you could for a layman, kind of walk me through the bismuth phosphate—what makes the bismuth phosphate process and what makes it unique? Buckingham: Well, the bismuth phosphate process is what—in chemical engineering, if you have just a trace of an element that you’re trying to separate out, you often have to use an additional new inert material that will help increase the volume of the precipitate. And the bismuth phosphate process, essentially what we were doing was precipitating plutonium phosphate, but we didn’t—there wasn’t enough volume, so we added another element called bismuth that would increase the volume of the plutonium that precipitated. Then we’d have to do another precipitation to separate the plutonium out of the—with another precipitation process, to precipitate only the plutonium. Franklin: So first you would kind of bind the bismuth to the plutonium and then pull that out. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: And then you’d take that much more refined—you know, refined—because you’ve stripped out the uranium, the transuranics, and then— Buckingham: Because if you could change the valence state of the plutonium, which wouldn’t then precipitate. Franklin: And how would you separate the bismuth from the plutonium? Buckingham: We would oxidize the plutonium to—let’s see if I can remember—it was in the four state in the first separation where we were first separation. Then we would oxidize it, we’d reduce it to the three state, which wouldn’t precipitate, then, in the next step. Franklin: What are the states that you’re talking about? You said from the four state to the three state. Buckingham: Oh, that’s the valence state. The oxidization state of the plutonium. Essentially—that’s essentially the way that plutonium is separated from the uranium in all the separation processes. We change the valence of the plutonium from four to three. Franklin: And that refers to the position of the electrons, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. It’s been a long time since I’ve had chemistry class. You’ll have to excuse me. You can imagine as a historian it’s been quite a while. Okay. These terms are familiar to me. Okay, so, what kind of equipment would you use to do this work? Buckingham: Well, in the—similar in both the original bismuth phosphate process, of course the fuel came up from the 100 Area in cask carts and they were put into a dissolver. And in the dissolver, we would first have to remove the aluminum cans that the uranium was canned in, in the reactors. Then dissolve the mixture of uranium and plutonium with nitric acid. And this was usually done as several steps. That’s when the brown fumes used to come pouring out of our stacks. [LAUGHTER] Then after it’s dissolved, we would then add this bismuth, dissolve bismuth nitrate to the mixture—to the dissolver fluid and precipitate a mixture of bismuth phosphate and plutonium phosphate. The plutonium was then jetted out to the Tank Farms and then we would redissolve—or we would redissolve that precipitate and precipitate the—change the—oxidize or reduce the plutonium to the three state, which then wouldn’t precipitate in the bismuth phosphate. We’d have to—I think there were—in the T Plant, there were 40 cells. That meant 20 steps of going between the precipitating the plutonium down and precipitating the—just cleaning the plutonium up. And each step, of course—in the original dissolution, the uranium and a lot of the fission products were removed in that first precipitation step. Franklin: The stuff like the transuranics and things—? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: So like the cesium and strontium—what other kinds of fission products— Buckingham: Oh, there’s just a whole pile of fission products that were developed—formed in that, during the irradiation process. Franklin: Like iodine— Buckingham: Iodine, and oh, good grief, a lot of them that—the bad ones was strontium-90 and cesium-137, of course, because they’re highly radioactive. But there was a whole stack of them in there. Franklin: So the plutonium’s kind of buried in all of this, right, and it’s the goal, but it’s one of the smaller products. Buckingham: Smaller products. Franklin: What kind of—you said about 40 cells, 20 steps. What kind of equipment were in the cells? How— Buckingham: Well, in each—let’s see, in the first two cells, there was a feed tank, of course. There was a centrifuge, a continuous centrifuge. And a receiving tank. And I’m trying to think what all went into that second cell. They would work together, and I think the feed tank might have been in the adjacent cell. The walls of those cells were about 15 feet thick of reinforced concrete, because of the radiation. Franklin: Between you and the cell, right? Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: Because you were doing all of this work remotely. Buckingham: It’s all done remotely. Franklin: Right. And did you ever have direct viewing of— Buckingham: No. Franklin: --what was going on in the cell? So how did you—I guess one of the questions people would ask, is how did you know— Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: --what was going on, and how did you know if things were working correctly or if there was a problem? Buckingham: They had a microphone in the cell and you could hear those centrifuges turning. Franklin: Oh, wow, okay. Buckingham: And they made very distinct noise when they finally ran out of fluid. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, okay, so that’s how you would— Buckingham: That’s how you would tell. And those operators got to be very clever on detecting when it was time to go onto the next step. Franklin: How would you transfer material from one cell to another? Buckingham: Everything was transferred with air jets. Franklin: Air jets. I’m having trouble visualizing that. What other applications do you know that air jets were used in—like, how does an air jet work? How would that— Buckingham: Well, it would just—well, it’s like an aspirator. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: I guess that’s the closest you could come to, is like an aspirator. Franklin: Okay. So that would kind of—would it push or pull the material through each cell? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Did it push and pull or did it--? Buckingham: Essentially pushed it from one tank to the next. Franklin: Okay. I imagine that through this process, I know that the highly accountable material was the plutonium, but you would want to sample to make sure that things were going right, and that your—that the amount of plutonium you were producing was matching the calculations of what should be— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: --what should be produced when the fuel was irradiated. So how would you take the samples? Buckingham: Well, there were samplers between—from every one of these tanks. And it was circulated around through a little cup, up near the surface of the tank. [PHONE RINGING] Buckingham: And between the tanks, essentially, is what they were. And it would—they’d go in and sample it—they’d recirculate through until they thought they had a fair sample. It was for a certain number of minutes and all that kind of stuff. Franklin: I would imagine those samples would be very radioactive. Buckingham: They were sampled in what was called a doorstop. It’s a little tiny pipette. [LAUGHTER] In quite a bit of stainless steel, about four inches in diameter. And there was a little insert inside that that the pipette would go down into. People would have to go in—actually go into the canyon to sample these different tanks at different times. We’d have to sample the receiving tank to make sure we weren’t dumping a lot of plutonium back into—out into the waste tank, and to also get a feel for how much plutonium was being moved and so forth. So, those first samples were pretty hot. They had to be handled behind—we had what was a special device in the laboratory that we would sample those tanks with those pipettes out of. Franklin: Wow. Did you ever have to go collect a sample? Buckingham: Only once. Franklin: I wonder—could you describe that for me? Buckingham: Well, you had to put on coveralls, wear a face mask, we weren’t on oxygen—we weren’t on air at that time. Now they even have to put on air supply. But it was really kind of interesting, because at the back of the T Plant there were these entries into the different levels. You’d have to call the dispatcher to tell her—tell them that we were entering, and they would then start timing you, let you know how much time you had to go in and get that sample, and get in to the doorstop and then get it back out so it can be delivered to the lab next-door. Franklin: And that’s because you would be receiving a dose-- Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: --when you were in there. How much time could you be in the canyon? Buckingham: Oh, you could be in there maybe 20 minutes. 20, 30 minutes. Franklin: Oh, wow. Buckingham: The cells were so thick, the walls of the cells were so thick, even the lids were offset on steps so that you weren’t getting an awful lot of radiation in there, but you were getting quite a bit. And then of course, when you get the sample up into the pipette, moving it into the doorstop, you were getting a bit of a dose. It wasn’t fun. Franklin: You said you had to put on a face mask and coveralls—how thick was all of that? Buckingham: Well, you had to put on two pairs of coveralls. Franklin: Two pairs of coveralls. Buckingham: Two pairs. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: And boots, gloves. Let’s see what other—a hood. You were thoroughly dressed. And then you had to be checked out, of course. There was always an RM person there, making sure you didn’t have anything on you when you came out. Franklin: And RM stands for--? Buckingham: Radiation monitor. Franklin: Okay. Similar to—is that what today would be called an HBT? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Was RM the standard terminology at the time? Buckingham: That was the terminology at the time. Franklin: But same basic— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Same basic job, okay. I’m wondering, I’d like to step back for a minute and I’d like to ask you about the first time you saw the canyon, the T Plant. I’m wondering if you could describe the building, but also how you felt about it, you know. Your impressions of the building. Buckingham: Scared. [LAUGHTER] Buckingham: That really was. I was just absolutely confounded about the whole thing. Franklin: Why? Buckingham: Well, the building was 800 feet long. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: About 30 feet wide. And a third of it was, or a good portion of it was below ground level. And then a long—one side of it was what they called the operating galleries. And this was where the people, the operators, sat. And they were the ones who—there was also as long as that gallery was where they had the tanks that they fed the new chemicals in for the separation process. It was—there’s then a crane ran the whole length of the building. And the crane was operated behind a concrete wall and it was a lead-shielded crane. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How did the person operating the crane see what they were doing? Buckingham: Through optics. Franklin: Such as? Buckingham: Just like a telescope. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, wow. Buckingham: And they were canny. Those crane operators were canny. I think they had a second sense of feeling where that crane hook was. But they could see it. Franklin: Did they also use television as well? Buckingham: No, that—television was hardly invented at that stage in the game. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: It was strictly optics. Franklin: Was television, CCTV added to the processing later? Buckingham: Later on, yeah. Franklin: Do you know approximately when that was? Buckingham: Oh, gosh, it wasn’t until—well, they were no longer using the bismuth phosphate process when they finally got television. It wasn’t until, oh, gosh, I would say well into the ‘70s before we even had the idea of using much television. Franklin: Okay. Had you ever seen a building like the T Plant before? Buckingham: Never. Franklin: I’m wondering—you mentioned the brown fumes that came out. Could you describe the stack? How tall was it, and--? Buckingham: Well, the stack was about 50 feet tall, and of course it was part of the ventilation system. Now, the dissolver would—any time you dissolve a metal in nitric acid, you’re going to get NO2 off. The original processes, we did not try to do anything about that NO2. We just booted it out into the atmosphere. You could always tell when they were—we were very closely regulated when we couldn’t dissolve—that was why there was a weather station out at Hanford. If the weather was not good for dissolving, we couldn’t dissolve, or they’d have to drown the dissolver to stop the reaction. Franklin: What would be bad weather for dissolving? Buckingham: High winds. Franklin: Because it would be variable where it would go, or--? Buckingham: Yeah. They didn’t want too much of that stuff to leave the Hanford Project. You know, even after running out there for quite a number of years, there was a big ruckus about all the radiation that came from Hanford causing downwind cancers and all that good stuff. And that’s when they did that very extensive study of how the radiation went from Hanford. There was a row of samplers built for about 30 miles around Hanford to detect—if they could detect anything coming from radiation. And then also that’s when we got into the REDOX process. They decided they would try to recover a lot of that nitric acid. So we put in absorbers so that the fumes weren’t as brown coming out of the process after a few years. [LAUGHTER] And they did a very extensive study of the atmospheric dispersion of stuff around. Gosh, there’s so many studies on all that. And also, down on the river, we had—University of Washington had a fish hatchery where we were studying the effect of any—well, it was started out the effect of the water through the reactors, how it was affecting the fish. And also they were beginning to study what’s happening to the cooling waters and so forth were just put into cooling ponds. [LAUGHTER] We had some pretty hot ducks out there at one time. [LAUGHTER] But— Franklin: Hot how? Buckingham: Radioactive. Franklin: And how did they become radioactive? Buckingham: Well, you know, there’s—we were trying very hard to not discharge anything to these surface ponds. But there were always leaks. And somehow or other, radiation always managed to get into some of these ponds. And some of them became fairly grossly contaminated over the years. And also, that’s when they began looking at the amount of—the effect of groundwater under the separation plants. We knew more about what was going on underground than most people know about what’s going on on the surface. Franklin: Right, because of the worry of contaminating the groundwater, right? Buckingham: Yeah, they didn’t want to contaminate the groundwater. And that was pretty important. Also, where’s the groundwater going? They know it’s going towards the river. And how long is going to take? And certain radioisotopes were moving faster than others. Which was a big concern. So we were doing a lot of studies on that. Oh, I don’t know. It’s just amazing the studies that were going on. You know, there was also a pretty good-sized animal farm down there by F— Franklin: F Reactor, right? Buckingham: F factory, yeah. [LAUGHTER] And also the hot desert, the hot poop out in the desert from the animals that had gotten some—the Cold War got started through all this period of time. It was to get that plutonium out of here come hell or high water. And we were running out of waste storage tanks, and we didn’t have any—this is when we went through a procedure of trying to precipitate enough of the bad active radioisotopes in the waste storage tanks to be able to keep running, keep our space going. Some of these things didn’t really work out too well. But we were making plutonium. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Some of what things didn’t work out too well? Buckingham: Well, some of what—we were precipitating some of the higher radioactive isotopes in the tanks by adding—oh, let’s see, what was it that we were adding? Gosh, I can’t remember now. Oh, dear. We went through so many different processes that it’s kind of funny. Then we also went through the process of wanting to recover all that uranium that we had put out into those waste tanks. Franklin: Right, I was going to ask you about that. Buckingham: That was when we revamped U Plant. Franklin: And that was specifically for recovering— Buckingham: Uranium. Franklin: Uranium. And I’m wondering if you could—I’d like to go back a little bit but end up there, but go back a little bit. You, I imagine, when you came in ’47, you worked with a lot of people that had worked at Hanford during the Manhattan Project, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: How many people were still around from the Manhattan Project when you started? Buckingham: Oh, I would imagine maybe a couple thousand. We didn’t have a big crew here, but there were quite a few people here. Of course, DuPont had just left when we came. They left in January, and I came in June or July. Franklin: Okay. And you worked for General Electric? Buckingham: Yeah, it was General Electric was the one who was running the facility at that time. Franklin: And were any of your fellow engineers—had any of them been around in the Manhattan Project? Buckingham: Yeah, most of them. Most of the people we were working with had been here during DuPont. Uncle DuPont. They were very proud of Uncle DuPont. [LAUGHTER] And we were actually still operating under DuPont procedures. Franklin: For the processes? Buckingham: For the processes. Franklin: How long did you continue to operate under those procedures? Buckingham: Oh, I think we must’ve operated under them for over ten years. Franklin: Oh, wow. Was the uranium that was going into the storage tanks during World War II and a little after, was that a concern at the time, in terms of recovering that as fuel and/or worrying about the space in the tanks? Buckingham: Well, it was more concerned about—it was a fuel that was usable. Uranium was becoming a very valuable product at that time, because there was a lot of work going on with power reactors, the building of—looking at the possibility of using power reactors. There were several companies getting into building reactors. This was going to be the new power thing of the future. Franklin: Right. Buckingham: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Because it puts off so much heat, right? Buckingham: Yeah! Franklin: That was the major attractiveness to producing power, would be to generate steam. Buckingham: And we actually put so much radioactivity in some of those old tanks that they were boiling. Those old storage tanks. Franklin: Like, as in the material was actually boiling. Buckingham: Actually boiling. Franklin: Wow. Buckingham: That was from the decay of a lot of the radioactive material. And, you know, we also recovered—went to a recovery of strontium-90 and cesium-137, because these were going to be valuable isotopes that could be used. In fact, there were a lot of the -90 isotopes used to run beacons up north. Franklin: Beacons? Buckingham: Yeah, radio-beacons because of the heat generated from those strontium-90. Franklin: Oh, okay. Those would be used in arctic environments. Buckingham: Yeah, for arctic environments where you couldn’t depend on sunshine in the middle of winter. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Wow. Buckingham: So, we went—that’s one of the things that was kind of fun in my later work, I went into this organization called Process Chemistry where we were looking at all these different isotopes. And there was a whole array of them that we thought were going to be valuable isotopes to use. That’s why they repurposed the old bismuth phosphate process B Plant into recover strontium and—[LAUGHTER] strontium and cesium. Franklin: It’s pretty amazing that they used plants which had been made—I guess when they were made, correct me if I’m wrong, but the final process hadn’t been quite decided when DuPont was constructing the T Plant and B Plant, right? They had an idea but they hadn’t settled on the specifics. Buckingham: No, the only way you could extract something like that—the extraction process was not really new. It’s used in chemistry laboratories. It was an ether extraction. Well, you know, ether is not very friendly material to use. Franklin: No, it’s very flammable, right? Buckingham: Yeah, very flammable. But when they discovered this methyl isobutyl ketone from the REDOX process, it was a whole new field of chemistry that was coming in. Not only usable in nuclear material; it was usable in a lot of metallurgical processes. Franklin: What did you call that? Something ketone? Buckingham: Methyl isobutyl ketones. Hexone. Franklin: Hexone, okay. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I’m just going to try to write that down as well as I can spell it. It’s pretty amazing that these, T, and B and U, designed for this one process were able to be kind of retrofitted for all of these different jobs. Was that because the uranium recovery wasn’t all that different, or was it because these buildings were— Buckingham: Well, the uranium recovery was actually kind of off-step to the future of the PUREX process which used tributyl phosphate as an extractant. We used just a more dilute tributyl phosphate as an extractant in the uranium recovery process. Franklin: And PUREX was kind of the final process at Hanford that—like, it was kind of the final evolution of that, what had started with bismuth phosphate, right? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. And that PUREX process, correct me if I’m wrong, was used in other facilities? Buckingham: Now it’s used all over the world, yeah. And it was actually invented here. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Right. Because we have the building that bears its name, right? Buckingham: Yeah, right! Franklin: I wanted to ask you a few more questions, some of the ones that John had written—John Fox had written about T Plant. But I had one question before that. When you’d finished—when the material had gone through the cells— Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: --and you’d separated out the plutonium, what was that final—and I’m talking about when you first got here, with the bismuth phosphate process. What was the final product? Buckingham: Well, it goes through all these stages in the old bismuth phosphate plant. And then we transferred it over to the 224 Building, which was right behind the plant. And instead of using bismuth phosphate to precipitate the material, we used a lanthanum fluoride precipitation. And this was a little bit cleaner and a little bit more straightforward. Then that material from the old lanthanum fluoride precipitation was essentially a—well, we precipitated it as a hydroxide, plutonium hydroxide. Then dissolved that and shipped it down to the old 231 Building, where it was then just plain concentrated down to make a kind of—well, it wasn’t a paste exactly, but it was a very concentrated solution of plutonium nitrate. Franklin: It was some kind of—like a thick liquid? Buckingham: Very thick liquid. Franklin: Like a sludge? Buckingham: It was essentially a sludge. Franklin: Interesting. Buckingham: And that is what was then shipped down to Los Alamos. Franklin: When was the decision—when did we switch from shipping the semi-liquid to the solid puck or the powder forms? Buckingham: Well, it was—the plant down at Los Alamos was undersized. And they needed a bigger plant to make a solid form, and that’s when they began building the Dash-5 Plant. And good grief, that started in—seemed to me like that started in the ‘50s. Franklin: Okay. So I want to go to some of John’s questions and I’ll try to skip them if I feel like we’ve already talked about them. Buckingham: Sure. Franklin: So how long did it take to run a batch through the T Plant canyon? Buckingham: Oh, it took maybe a week. Franklin: Okay. That’s all? Just one— Buckingham: About a week, yeah. Franklin: So it was shorter than what it took—the time it took to irradiate the fuel in the reactor. Buckingham: Right. Franklin: And is that why they didn’t—why T Plant could handle the material from the three reactors? Because I remember they’d built the three reactors in the Manhattan Project, and then built three identical canyons— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: --but only T Plant ran the bismuth phosphate process, correct? Buckingham: No, T and B Plant. Franklin: T, oh, and B. Okay. Buckingham: Yeah, the two plants. They didn’t need U Plant. Franklin: Okay, it was U Plant they didn’t. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Because it took about, what was it, like 30 days to run fuel through the reactor? 30 to 90? Buckingham: Yeah, I think they were in the reactor 30 days. Franklin: And then cooling time. Buckingham: A little bit of cooling time. But we were able to—the two, B and T Plant, were able to handle all the output from the three original reactors. But then they began building more reactors. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: What reactors were under—what reactors were at Hanford when you first got to the Site? Buckingham: B, D and F. Franklin: And then the other six were built while you were working? Buckingham: Yeah, then they began—oh, the began to build a replacement for B— Franklin: D. Buckingham: And that was C Reactor. Franklin: Oh, C, right, okay. Buckingham: And then they began building the super reactors, K-E and K-W. [LAUGHTER] Then they began building N Reactor for the dual purpose. So. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: And then somewhere in there is DR. Buckingham: DR. Franklin: And H. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. How long did the process take—I guess, I’m trying to—so this follows the how long did it take to run a batch through the T Plant question. I think this is a sub-question. How much more time in the 224 and 231 Buildings? Buckingham: Just a few days, actually, in the 224 Building. Franklin: And what was the 224 Building? Buckingham: Well, that was where we then went from the bismuth phosphate to the lanthanum fluoride. Franklin: So that was kind of like a finishing— Buckingham: Yeah, it was finishing the bismuth phosphate process. Franklin: Did that building have another name besides the 224? Buckingham: No. 224 is all we ever used. Franklin: Okay, and then 231 was a further finishing? Buckingham: That was where it was just concentrated to—that was the final step. Franklin: Okay. And did the 231 have another name, or was it just 231? Buckingham: Just 231 Building. Franklin: Okay. Gotcha. Buckingham: And it went from there into the shipping containers that they shipped it to Los Alamos then. Franklin: So did it take an additional several days in each building? Buckingham: Yeah, just several days. Maybe could’ve taken a week or so. But they had to start—I don’t think it took much more than a week to get it through 231 Building. Franklin: So, a week—conservatively like a week for each? Buckingham: Yeah, it was—well, there were steps that they would go through and you didn’t have to wait until they finished one step to go—another step could be coming in right away. Franklin: Okay. I’ll just put a week or so. That’s a pretty—so the entire process, we could say, would probably be somewhere in the realm of two to three weeks— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: --to take the irradiated fuel and have the shipment ready for Los Alamos? Buckingham: I would say it would take less than three weeks. Franklin: Less than three weeks. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Interesting. How many days were there when you couldn’t dissolve the fuel sludge because of weather conditions? Buckingham: Oh, it wasn’t too bad here. You know, the climate here is not that bad. It’s just—I would guess that there was probably, in a year there might be less than two months. Franklin: Okay. Buckingham: Total. Franklin: Sure. Buckingham: Because it seemed to me like we were constantly—I don’t know whether we were cheating or—[LAUGHTER]—sitting on the edge of—and I don’t know who ever really decided why we couldn’t dissolve. Franklin: Oh, that was my next question here, was who—how was this decided? Buckingham: I don’t know if it was the meteorologist decided. I have no idea who made that final decision. Franklin: Gotcha. How could you tell when each step of the process was completed? You mentioned earlier about the centrifuge noise. Buckingham: Well, the— Franklin: How—sorry, go ahead. Buckingham: Well, in the—they would have to—it took quite a little while to move clear through the old bismuth phosphate process. I would say that it took—it could take up to—it’d take a good hard week of 24-hour days in there to get clear through. If you took one batch and ran it clear through. But, you know, all they have to do is get out of that first two cells and they could bring another one in. So, they were following on very closely. We did— Franklin: How did—oh, sorry. Buckingham: Go ahead. Franklin: Oh, I was going to say, how would you tell in the later cells when it was time to move that material on? What other types of tools did you use? Buckingham: By samples. Franklin: By the sampling? Buckingham: Yeah, by the sampling. And also the point at which—they could tell pretty well when they finished that lanthanum fluoride, they could tell when to move to the next position where they were then precipitating the hydroxide. Franklin: Okay. What about in the T Plant, though, in between cells, how would you know when it was time for the air jets to move a particular batch through? Buckingham: Well, they knew the volumes that they were moving through because they used things that told the volume of what the volume of the tank was. There were bubblers in the tanks. And they could tell pretty well when one step of the process was over with and they were going on to the next step. Franklin: Because you had mentioned earlier that they would use microphones near the centrifuges to tell when the centrifuge was kind of out of liquid because it would emit this particular tone. And so they would also use other measuring devices to tell each volume and things like that? Buckingham: Yeah, they knew the volume of the feed tank that they were pumping out of, and the volume of the waste tank that was being received into. They could—there were ways of doing that. Franklin: How would you read that? Would that be in the operating gallery? Buckingham: It was in the operating gallery. Franklin: And how could you read that volume through 15 feet of concrete? Buckingham: They used what they call bubblers. They’re two pipes going down into the tanks that they could measure by the air pressure going in how much—what the reading was on the—that all showed out on the chart up in the operating gallery. Franklin: Oh, so would it be the pressure of the air— Buckingham: The pressure of the air. Franklin: --hitting, going into the tank would tell you the volume and you could get the volume. Ah, I see. So that was a way, I suppose, to keep an active measurement, but also to—if you have air going in, you don’t have anything coming back. Buckingham: Right. Franklin: Right, so you’re not introducing radiation anywhere in the operating gallery or something like that, okay. Buckingham: No, no. Franklin: Because everything—correct me if I’m wrong—a big concern was kind of keeping everything contained but also having—was pressure a concern in the cells, for example, having a pressurized environment where if you had a leak, the air would rush in and not rush out? Buckingham: Well, of course they were under a slight lower pressure than the outside air pressure, because they had fans sucking the air out all the time. And they went through—later on we had a pretty good filtering system. Before, they were just using—they had just pits with fiberglass filters. Franklin: And later on they went to HAPA filters. Buckingham: Went through—yeah, we went to better filters. Franklin: Interesting, okay. How reliable was the instrumentation? Buckingham: I would say it was very reliable. Because they were using just standard equipment that was used in all sorts of industry around the world. Franklin: How did the introduction—this is my own question; I don’t know if it’s going to fit in here, but—how did the introduction of transistors and things change the layout of the operating gallery? I imagine that that would’ve changed some of the components used. Buckingham: I can’t remember that it actually changed it very much. We would get a little bit better instrumentation coming in, and— Franklin: Was there any special instrumentation designed for this process? Buckingham: I don’t think so. I think we just used standard equipment that was used in any—like, in the oil industry. You know? Just standard. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. You mentioned that you entered the canyon once to take samples. Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: How often, though, did crew enter the canyon? Yeah, how often did people take samples? Buckingham: Well, I would say they had to go—we were working on 8-hour shifts, and during an 8-hour shift, I think they made at least one entry a shift. Franklin: Okay, one entry— Buckingham: But it could’ve been a little, few more than that, depending on our pressure of getting something out or— Franklin: And you said they would typically stay about 20 to 30 minutes in the canyon? And was there a strong cut-off? Buckingham: I don’t think so. I can’t ever remember anybody complaining too much about being in there too long or— They kept pretty good track of it, of course. Franklin: Right, well, I’m sure it wasn’t a place where people would want to go and hang out all day. Buckingham: No. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: How often did you need to change or replace jumpers in a cell? Buckingham: Not very often. Franklin: And, actually, let’s back up, because I realized we hadn’t really talked about—I’m wondering if you could describe a jumper and what it is, what its— Buckingham: Okay, now, in each cell, there would be tanks or equipment. And on each of these, there was a nozzle, many nozzles. If, in fact, you looked into a cell—and then, these connect to an identical thing on the walls of the cell. If you look into one of those cells, it almost looked like looking into a bowl of spaghetti. And the crane operator could go in and remove these jumpers as needed. And it wasn’t too terribly often that they would have to go in. If a piece of equipment would fail, they would have to pull it out. To do that, he would have to know which jumpers to take off. [LAUGHTER] They have to be taken off in a certain pattern, because some of them would be down hidden, down underneath. But, I tell you, those guys were clever. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Well, especially doing it through optics, too. Buckingham: And we would—we took a few large samples, too, out of the samplers. And they would—the crane operator bring a big cask in and set it next to the sampler. Then when he needed to get to pick the crane up, he would get the hook swinging, so he could get it and snag the bale on the big sample and pull it out. Franklin: Wow. Wow. Buckingham: I rode with the crane operators one night, just for about two hours, just to see what they were doing. And they were good. Franklin: What kind of equipment did they use in the cab? Was it a typical kind of crane, or was there any special equipment? Buckingham: It was just pretty much a simple kind of crane. But there were—let’s see, what—there was on the crane itself that operated, it had an impact wrench, two hooks. I can’t think of anything else that they had in it. But the impact wrench, they’d go down and be able to get onto these jumpers. And be able to—that was the way they got these, when they had to replace anything. And it was really rather unique situation. Franklin: So in some ways the jumpers were kind of—they were like the piping between the cells, or kind of like— Buckingham: They were the piping between the cells, all the electricity, all the instrumentation, everything had to come through those jumpers. Franklin: But what was being treated didn’t go through the jumpers, right? Buckingham: No. Franklin: That went through the stairs. Buckingham: Well, if it was going from one cell to the next cell, it had to go through one of the jumpers. Franklin: Oh, okay, so the jumpers were kind of like dual-purpose, that they carried, like you said, the electrical cables and things like that, but then other jumpers would also carry— Buckingham: Liquids. Franklin: --various liquids through. Would they carry just the precipitating agents, or would they carry the fuel, the irradiated— Buckingham: The irradiated stuff. Everything. Franklin: So you really needed to know which jumper was carrying what. Buckingham: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Were they clearly marked as to which were hot-- Buckingham: Yes. Franklin: Or like wet and dry jumpers? Buckingham: Well, not particularly, hot, wet and dry, but you knew what jumper did what. Franklin: Okay, it was pretty clear to the crane operator what— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Okay, gotcha. And how long would it take to change or replace a jumper in a cell? Buckingham: Oh, I would say they could do it about—I would say within half an hour, they could do it. Or half an hour to an hour, they could do a lot of changing out in a cell, depending how complicated the equipment was that had to be moved and that time. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. How did you dispose of contaminated jumpers? Buckingham: They’d be put into a burial box. Franklin: Describe a burial box. Buckingham: Well, as I recall, they were usually—depending on if it was a very radioactive jumper, for example, they would try to put it into a coffin-like container, like a—but it has to be something that they can pick up and move out of that canyon. So it can’t be too awkward. As I recall, it seemed like just a lot of them were plywood. Franklin: Oh, wow. Buckingham: Depending on how much radiation. Of course, they could be flushed out in— Franklin: And where would that be stored, where would it be buried? Buckingham: Out in the burial ground. Franklin: Okay. What was the burial ground like when you started at Hanford? I imagine it’s probably different from the burial grounds today. Buckingham: I don’t think so. I think they were the same. They were out there near the separation plants. They were just big trenches. They would, depending on what was being disposed of in some of them, they actually brought them in on railcars. Built a siting out there for all the failed equipment in as close as they could get it to the pit, and then use bulldozers or something to pull it over into the pit, and start backfilling it. Franklin: Hmm, okay. Buckingham: You stayed out of the area when it was being done. Franklin: Yeah, I bet. Did any items removed from the cell contaminate the canyon floor? Buckingham: Yes. But that was always something that, they tried not to do that, of course. Franklin: When that happened, what would the procedure be to— Buckingham: Well, then they had to—if there was any contamination that got out of the cell itself, it had to be cleaned, cleaned up. Franklin: How would it be cleaned? Buckingham: Oh, could be sprayed down with water or acid or something. Flushed out. I can’t remember any time that there was anything seriously lost out of any of the cells. But it could’ve happened. Franklin: Okay. Who kept track of the amount of product so you could tell if the yield was within acceptable limits? Buckingham: There was a bunch of people down in headquarters that did that. I don’t have any idea who did keeping track of it. The engineers didn’t. Franklin: Okay. But I’m sure you furnished your sample results, or—were the sample results when you took samples, were those used to determine the amounts of—because I imagine, that would be a primary concern, right, would be the proper amount of plutonium was making it through the process. That would—because they would—for each fuel element, you would get so much plutonium out of that. So you would want to recover as close to 100% as you could. Buckingham: As much as we could, right. And I don’t know who kept track of all that stuff. There was—it went into the operating offices up in—and there was somebody in there that did something with it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Were there ever any unusual incidents worth mentioning while you worked there? Buckingham: Well, yes, one time during a windstorm, a steam pipe fell. That was one that was a little exciting because it ruptured when it fell. And let’s see. A lot of those, you know, a lot of those jets were run by steam instead of air, too. Let me think if there’s anything else. Oh, we had a pretty bad—blew a bunch of ruthenium out of one of the stacks one time and we had a lot of contamination around the old REDOX plant on the ground. Franklin: How did the ruthenium go up the stack and leave the facility? Buckingham: Well, ruthenium is pretty volatile. It was a problem. It was one of our radioactive isotope problems for REDOX facility. Franklin: Oh, but that’s specifically REDOX and not T Plant? Or did that happen— Buckingham: It wasn’t so bad in the T Plant. We didn’t seem to have any real serious problems there that I can recall. Franklin: How long did you work at the T Plant? Buckingham: About a year. Franklin: Just about, so ’47-’48 timeframe? Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: And then you went to the REDOX plant? Buckingham: Well, REDOX was just on the verge of getting started; they were working on it. Then I went down and just worked on 300 Area in what they called the standards lab for about a year. And then went into the process chemistry. Franklin: After bismuth phosphate was—because bismuth phosphate was kind of retired as a process when REDOX came online. Buckingham: Yup. Franklin: Correct? What other missions did the T Plant have in its life that you know of? And were you involved in any of them? Buckingham: I wasn’t involved in any of them. I think it essentially—well, Battelle ran some experiments up there, but I don’t think they were using the plant; I think they were using what they called the head end. It was where they were checking ventilation kind of stuff. So it was used for—a lot of it was used for ventilation studies. Franklin: Was the head end where the fuel elements came in, or— Buckingham: That’s where the fuel elements came in. Franklin: Where the train would back up and— Buckingham: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else you wanted to say about T Plant? Buckingham: Well, I like to always—when I was doing tours, I would tell people that there was only something like four grams of plutonium in each one of those fuel elements that was put into T Plant. So it was really a—they had to add this additional chemical to make it—to help separate the plutonium out. Franklin: To kind of find it, right, in all of the— Buckingham: Yeah. And the process worked successfully. Also, you know, when you stop to think of all that engineering that went into that scale-up, it’s really kind of mind-boggling. Because we just didn’t really know how things were going to go. [LAUGHTER] I— Franklin: Did you—oh, sorry. Buckingham: I think that the mere fact that they were able to do it is a— Franklin: Would you consider it comparable to the engineering feat of building the B Reactor? Because—is there a comparison there, because there had been a small graphite reactor that was scaled up to be the B. And is the same kind of true with T? There was this laboratory process that was proven, but had not been done on that scale. Is that a comparable— Buckingham: That’s comparable, yeah. They didn’t—I don’t even think they had a laboratory at Oak Ridge that they were doing anything with this scale on. Franklin: Is the T Plant kind of the—kind of the same—what’s the word I’m looking for—kind of the same thing to chemical engineering as B is to nuclear reactors? Would you say it’s a milestone? Buckingham: I’d say it was a milestone, then, because, well, there was almost every chemical process you could think of that was being used in it. Franklin: Right, and it played this really crucial role in this process. Right? Because it feels like the reactors are kind of—you know, they get a lot of the coverage, but this chemical separations process is crucial. Buckingham: Oh, good heavens, yes! We had to get that plutonium out of that element somehow or other. You just don’t go in and pick it out with a pair of pliers! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to add about T Plant or—reflections on your year spent at the T Plant? Buckingham: Well, mine were really pretty minimal, and being just in the laboratory out there doing the analytical work, it was an experience. [LAUGHTER] It was the first time that I will say that I was using some of my experience that I received in analytical chemistry at good old Washington State College. [LAUGHTER] In fact, I went to tell—went over to visit one time, and I mentioned it to my analytical professor, I told him, he says, now I understand why you were such a stinker in the lab of having things well-organized and in place. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: You hadn’t quite appreciated it at the time, right? Buckingham: Yeah, because, you know, we were using micro—you couldn’t use a large sample. You had to use—we were using very small samples for everything because they were so damned radioactive. Franklin: Right, so you really had to have everything calibrated properly— Buckingham: Properly. Franklin: And well-organized. Buckingham: And you were very careful with everything. You had to have a neat desk, a neat bench, to get anything done. It was an experience, I will— Franklin; Great, well, Steve, thank you very much for coming. I know it was only a short period of your work at Hanford, but thank you for going into such detail. It’s really important to capture this information and make the case for preserving the T Plant. Buckingham: Well, I feel like there’s so many little odds and ends that are just being forgotten. I’m really proud of the work that we’ve done here over the years. It’s just—to me, it’s just something that’s unbelievable. Unbelievable in science. Franklin: Right, yeah. Well, testing out all of these new processes. Buckingham: And the other scientific work that was being done here on the radiation and the movement of radioactive nuclides around and everything—gosh, we did a lot of interesting things. We had wells dug out there by the weather tower that we were trying to study what it was doing down under the ground. I think we knew more about what was moving around— And I feel kind of angry when they start belittling some of the stuff that was done. It’s—it just—in the whole study of the environment that we’ve done around here is, to me, is unbelievable, the work that they’ve produced. And the transportation of radionuclides in the plants that’s still going on. Franklin: Well, Steve, thank you so much for coming and talking to us about T Plant. Buckingham: My pleasure. I think I kind of jumbled a lot of stuff around. Franklin: No, I understand—I think I understand what was going on there, finally, a little bit better than—because I tried reading the documentation and it’s a little—I appreciate you putting it in a simpler form that, you know, even a historian can understand. [LAUGHTER] <a href="https://youtu.be/fP_QO-P7Jg4">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview REDOX T Plant B Plant U Plant F Reactor PUREX 224 Building 231 Building B Reactor D Reactor F Reactor C Reactor K East Reactor K West Reactor N Reactor DR Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steve Buckingham Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Plutonium Uranium Solvent extraction Chemistry Radioactive waste disposal Description An account of the resource This interview with Steve Buckingham is part of an effort to record the history of the T Plant, a facility that processed irradiated fuel from the B Reactor. Using the bismuth phosphate process, T Plant operations were able to extract plutonium from spent fuel rods. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02/21/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff94d2996a41bb42451cb4c2277070e99.jpg f3dfb8cfffc8a88f464ad65796b1208b https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2f0d6a8c9fc260c9cd52ec998cdd8d60.mp4 c73deb8f268f89a07d4b7cfe5cc47900 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. Well, thanks for being here, first of all. To start off, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Sue Olson: Sue, S-U-E. Olson, O-L-S-O-N. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Okay, thank you. And I am Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral interview here as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. It’s February 5th, 2016. This interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So just to get us started, would you please tell us something about your life before you came to Hanford? Where you were growing up and so on. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: I was born in Claude, Texas. I graduated from Panhandle High School as valedictorian in my class. I went to Texas Woman’s University in Denton, Texas. Then went to University of Texas in Austin, Texas. I was—[COUGH] Excuse me. I was in college in an accounting class at the University of Texas in Austin when World War II was declared. I heard the President declare World War II. So at the end of that year, I took a civil service test as clerk typist and I started working for US Corps of Engineers. I first worked at Pantex Ordnance Plant in Amarillo, Texas, and I had to transfer to Tyler, Texas to an army replacement training. And then after that, I received a teletype that I was to enter in for Hanford. We had received a teletype from a lady who had transferred up here, and she had said, don’t come here. It’s rattlesnakes, sagebrush, and dust storms. [LAUGHTER] So I transferred to the Manhattan Project in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And Manhattan Project had three areas—I worked for the army major who was in charge of one of the areas there. DuPont was the contractor there. And at Oak Ridge, I met Robert Olson, who was with me at DuPont. Before I met him, he worked at the University of Chicago to work on the Manhattan Project—he worked on at the University. And he transferred to Oak Ridge; I met him there. We were married there, and then we transferred to Hanford, with DuPont. We arrived here October 1st, 1944. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: What sort of work did you do at Oak Ridge? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, he and I were at DuPont getting ready to work. The work on the Manhattan Project was to develop the bomb. That was what it was for. And he worked at Oak Ridge. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Do you know what sort of—was he working in chemicals or physics? Do you know what sort of work he was doing there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: No, because it was all secret. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: I see. And did you say you were also working there as a clerk? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: I worked as a secretary for the Army Major, who was in charge of the X-10 area in Oak Ridge. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Okay. When you arrived at Hanford, what sort of work did you undertake here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Oh, I signed up to be secretary and DuPont was the contractor here for the first year or so. And they sent me out to 200 West Area to be in the stenographic pool. I was the only secretary there. There were several departments, and all the departments brought their paperwork in to me. [LAUGHTER] And I took dictation for all of them who wanted to write letters of any type. Then they sent another girl out—another secretary out, but she couldn’t take dictation. So I did all of that. There were several departments. I don’t remember the names of all the departments, but it was a major process. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Was it similar to what you were doing at Oak Ridge, or was it a new kind of work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: It was the same kind of work, secretarial work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Right. What was your impression of the Tri-Cities when you arrived? Was it like you had been warned? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: No. [LAUGHTER] We drove along the highway south of town, and Bob looked over and said, there it is. And we could see a few houses. We went to the hotel to check in at the hotel, and the hotel was called the transient quarters. [LAUGHTER] The hotel in Oak Ridge was called the guest house. We were in the hotel about three days. Then we moved into—at that time the houses were assigned to people. There were only the two of us, and so they moved us into a one-bedroom prefab on Winslow Street. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: In Richland? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Winslow Street in Richland. And there was one street behind that, and behind that street was desert, all the way out to the river. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: What were your impressions of the house? Did you like the house? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, the house was adequate. It was 600 square feet. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Had a question and it went right out of my mind. [LAUGHTER] Okay. So could you tell us, what was an average day at your job? You said you took dictation, but what other kinds of work— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Typing. In 200 West Area in 1944, it was typing. Except for the people who dictated. One man came in one day and he dictated the evacuation process, which took him several hours to do it. And the evacuation process—if it had ever had to happen—the process was that it would be on buses—cattle car buses. [LAUGHTER] The seats were on the sides of the bus, vertically, not horizontally across as they are in most buses. But there was never an evacuation process. There was preparation for it, if it had happened. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Interesting. I understand the transportation to get to jobs on the Hanford site was difficult. Did you take buses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, there were buses. There were buses, yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Was that a long commute? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Yes. I don’t remember the number of miles, but it’s a long commute from Richland into the West area. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: What was your husband working on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: He worked on—it was a group of scientists that were—13 or 14 or 15, something like that—and they wrote the separations process. Which was part of the process. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: I guess that was probably a different part of the Hanford site from where you were working? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: No, it was in 200 West Area, too. Yes. And it was a group of scientists who had transferred from Oak Ridge along with Bob. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Right. Could you please describe Hanford as a place to work? It’s a broad question. Let’s see—what were some of the more challenging aspects of your job? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, that I typed for eight hours a day. I typed or took dictation eight hours a day. No coffee breaks, nothing like that, and everything was confidential. Nobody discussed their job with any other person. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: I would guess you would have had to have had pretty high clearance to be taking dictation on all these sensitive matters. What was that process like? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, I worked in Two West and then I transferred to B Plant, and I went to 300 Area. My next job, I worked for Wilfred Johnson when he was assistant general manager. And I worked in the 703 Building. I had Top Secret clearance there. So I had kept the filing cabinet locked. I took dictation from him. The rest of it was the type you’re making phone calls. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: When did you find out about what the goal of the Hanford site was, to make the weapons? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: When the bomb was dropped, I read it in the local paper. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: What was your reaction? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: I was happy. That the US was going to be safe. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Right. Do you—trying to think how to phrase—is that your impression of that’s when everybody around you found out as well, or was it sort of a general surprise that the— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Yes. It was a surprise to everybody, I think. That’s my opinion. Except the men like my husband who were working on it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Did you continue working at the Hanford site after the war? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Yes. I worked there for ten years. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Did your work change substantially once the war was over? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, as I said, I worked as a secretary in 200 West, and then I moved to B Plant. And I worked in B Plant, and then I went to the 300 Area and was a secretary for the head of metallurgy. And then I had the job as—I was then an executive secretary for Wilfred “Bill” Johnson. And I retired after that period. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Did the workplace environment change in that time? You mentioned there were no breaks at first. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Change in what way? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: You mentioned it was very focused work during the war, no breaks, really concentrating to get the job done. Did that become more relaxed eventually, or was it still the same pace? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Not in the jobs I worked on. Everybody was there to work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: No coffee breaks, nothing like that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Interesting. How about—can you tell us something about your life outside of work during the wartime? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: We skied. Bob was from Wisconsin. He was a skier. And I grew up in Panhandle, Texas, and I did not ski. But I took lessons. And we skied on weekends. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Where would you go? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: We went to the closest one, over by—the closest one, which was south of East Richland. Tollgate. We went to Tollgate and skied there. And then we went up to the Snoqualmie Pass, and we skied there when it had only three rope tows. Before they put in any kind of lifts. It was—and I don’t remember the year for that, but—shortly after we got here, we went to Snoqualmie Pass. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Did the social environment—did life in Richland change for you outside of work once the war was over? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, there were a few more activities, because while the war was going on, there was nowhere to go. [LAUGHTER] We had a friend from Oak Ridge we played bridge with part of the time, and then we skied weekends. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Did you feel it was easy to meet new people when you moved here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Did I feel--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: I’ve heard some people say that when they first got here, they had a very easy time meeting people; I’ve heard other people say when they got here, they were so focused on the work, they didn’t get to meet as many people— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Oh, no, no, because we had friends from Oak Ridge who were transferred who were scientists. And people who were at work in that kind of work. So we visited with them, and they—we all had a little group, all the people that came from Oak Ridge. So we had several friends. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Let’s see. Could you describe any ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, of course. [LAUGHTER] No visiting, no coffee breaks—we worked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Did the secrecy continue outside of work? I’ve seen in some communities that people feel that they can’t talk about the work, and that sort of gets—someone last week was describing how she sort of felt she had to be on her guard about speaking about her work. She was afraid of that. Did you feel any sort of sense like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: We didn’t discuss—we did not discuss work, because we were busy with whatever we were doing—playing bridge or dancing or skiing. So there was no reason to discuss work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Sure. When you retired from being a secretary, you mentioned you eventually got into real estate. Is that right? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Was that right away, or did you have a [INAUDIBLE] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: No, it was not. My husband died in 1974, and so I was at home. I did volunteer work for 20 years. I had no plans to go back to work, but after his death, I decided to work in real estate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Will you tell us about your volunteer work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Oh, yes, Kadlec Hospital Auxiliary, and Mid-Columbia Symphony Guild, and Girl Scouts. All types of volunteer work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Great. What kinds of things did you do at the hospital? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Volunteer work. I would go down at 7:00 in the morning, and I answered the phone in one of the departments—I think it was the children’s department, that was part of what I did. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: And when you started getting into real estate, can you tell me about that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Yes, yes. I took classes at CBC. I studied hard for it, and I passed the test. I started to work for a company called—let’s see—Sherwood and Roberts. They were a company that had offices in this state and California and some other state. I worked for them four years, and then I transferred to other companies. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Did that job change over time? I know the communities started expanding during that period— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Oh, well, yes, there was more work as the company got larger. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Could you describe any ways in which you think of the Tri-Cities as changing over the first couple of decades you lived here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Well, it got larger. Larger, and they built more houses out past Winslow [LAUGHTER] Winslow Street. Well, of course it changed. There were more activities. Everybody was more—and there were people transferring in and out from large companies. There were a lot of people who came here who had worked for other companies that came here. And some had worked for General Electric or whoever the major contractor was. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Let’s see. Of course, during a lot of this era, the Cold War is going on as well. Did you feel that that was something sort of just off happening in the world, or was that something that you felt impacted your life? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: The Cold War? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Yeah, of course, there’s sort of this global conflict going on. There’s a lot of still building nuclear weapons, there’s thinking about use of nuclear weapons. Some people have described sort of a fear during that time, and other people have described they were happy—they went about their work and it didn’t bother them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: No, there was no fear to me personally. I was happy to see that the US was doing a job extremely well. I hoped it would continue to be good. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Let’s see. This is a general question. How would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the period that you lived here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: I think they should all be very proud of it, because it ended the war. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Right. Is there anything that you think children growing up today might not know about this period? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: I have no idea whether they know or not. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Sure. Is there anything you think, beyond—sorry, I have to—trying to think through, just—as people have lived here for some time start thinking back on their lives in the community, how they would like people to think about the history of the local community? I guess you’ve answered that to some degree: we should be proud about the contributions of the time. I guess what I’m trying to get at is—what was different in, say, the ‘60s or the ‘70s, in living in this era than it is today? Anything come to mind? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: I don’t think there was anything different from living in any good community or city. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: One of the local community leaders here—we understand you knew Sam Volpentest— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: --who contributed a lot to the local history. Would you describe your knowledge of his impact, what he was working on when you got to work with him? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: He was a major impact. He saved the Tri-Cities time after time after time. He made contacts in Washington, DC and he kept them. He flew back and forth frequently. Without his perseverance, the Tri-Cities would never have become as good as it had been. He kept sure that Hanford was going, which, at that time, was a main project in the Tri-Cities. And the best one producing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: I always like to ask—what have I not asked about that I should be asking about? What else should I be asking you about? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Oh, I don’t know. Nothing else. [LAUGHTER] I think you asked very well, thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: Well, if anything comes to mind, or anything you’d like to expand upon comes to mind, we’d of course love to hear it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: All right, thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: But otherwise, thanks so much for being here. It’s been very interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> Olson: Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX15306174"> O’Reagan: All right. </div> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O' Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Olson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:18:53 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 245 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 West Area B Plant 300 Area 703 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1944-1964 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Olson, Robert Johnson, Bil Volpentest, Sam Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Olson Description An account of the resource An interview with Sue Olson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/5/2016 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-09: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 200 West Area 300 Area 703 Building B Plant Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F55e95ce232b5f056280415f614f4b56e.JPG 4c0cb7db921db74673faf5dce0bac40e https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6a71efa32d1dcd70e19f991fd73fdef4.mp4 a755e008b26dcebec6765d1df054cadb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Olson Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. Well, thanks for being here, first of all. To start off, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? Sue Olson: Sue, S-U-E. Olson, O-L-S-O-N. O’Reagan: Okay, thank you. And I am Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral interview here as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. It’s February 5th, 2016. This interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So just to get us started, would you please tell us something about your life before you came to Hanford? Where you were growing up and so on. Olson: I was born in Claude, Texas. I graduated from Panhandle High School as valedictorian in my class. I went to Texas Woman’s University in Denton, Texas. Then went to University of Texas in Austin, Texas. I was—[COUGH] Excuse me. I was in college in an accounting class at the University of Texas in Austin when World War II was declared. I heard the President declare World War II. So at the end of that year, I took a civil service test as clerk typist and I started working for US Corps of Engineers. I first worked at Pantex Ordnance Plant in Amarillo, Texas, and I had to transfer to Tyler, Texas to an army replacement training. And then after that, I received a teletype that I was to enter in for Hanford. We had received a teletype from a lady who had transferred up here, and she had said, don’t come here. It’s rattlesnakes, sagebrush, and dust storms. [LAUGHTER] So I transferred to the Manhattan Project in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And Manhattan Project had three areas—I worked for the army major who was in charge of one of the areas there. DuPont was the contractor there. And at Oak Ridge, I met Robert Olson, who was with me at DuPont. Before I met him, he worked at the University of Chicago to work on the Manhattan Project—he worked on at the University. And he transferred to Oak Ridge; I met him there. We were married there, and then we transferred to Hanford, with DuPont. We arrived here October 1st, 1944. O’Reagan: What sort of work did you do at Oak Ridge? Olson: Well, he and I were at DuPont getting ready to work. The work on the Manhattan Project was to develop the bomb. That was what it was for. And he worked at Oak Ridge. O’Reagan: Do you know what sort of—was he working in chemicals or physics? Do you know what sort of work he was doing there? Olson: No, because it was all secret. O’Reagan: I see. And did you say you were also working there as a clerk? Olson: I worked as a secretary for the Army Major, who was in charge of the X-10 area in Oak Ridge. O’Reagan: Okay. When you arrived at Hanford, what sort of work did you undertake here? Olson: Oh, I signed up to be secretary and DuPont was the contractor here for the first year or so. And they sent me out to 200 West Area to be in the stenographic pool. I was the only secretary there. There were several departments, and all the departments brought their paperwork in to me. [LAUGHTER] And I took dictation for all of them who wanted to write letters of any type. Then they sent another girl out—another secretary out, but she couldn’t take dictation. So I did all of that. There were several departments. I don’t remember the names of all the departments, but it was a major process. O’Reagan: Was it similar to what you were doing at Oak Ridge, or was it a new kind of work? Olson: It was the same kind of work, secretarial work. O’Reagan: Right. What was your impression of the Tri-Cities when you arrived? Was it like you had been warned? Olson: No. [LAUGHTER] We drove along the highway south of town, and Bob looked over and said, there it is. And we could see a few houses. We went to the hotel to check in at the hotel, and the hotel was called the transient quarters. [LAUGHTER] The hotel in Oak Ridge was called the guest house. We were in the hotel about three days. Then we moved into—at that time the houses were assigned to people. There were only the two of us, and so they moved us into a one-bedroom prefab on Winslow Street. O’Reagan: In Richland? Olson: Winslow Street in Richland. And there was one street behind that, and behind that street was desert, all the way out to the river. O’Reagan: What were your impressions of the house? Did you like the house? Olson: Well, the house was adequate. It was 600 square feet. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Had a question and it went right out of my mind. [LAUGHTER] Okay. So could you tell us, what was an average day at your job? You said you took dictation, but what other kinds of work— Olson: Typing. In 200 West Area in 1944, it was typing. Except for the people who dictated. One man came in one day and he dictated the evacuation process, which took him several hours to do it. And the evacuation process—if it had ever had to happen—the process was that it would be on buses—cattle car buses. [LAUGHTER] The seats were on the sides of the bus, vertically, not horizontally across as they are in most buses. But there was never an evacuation process. There was preparation for it, if it had happened. O’Reagan: Interesting. I understand the transportation to get to jobs on the Hanford site was difficult. Did you take buses? Olson: Well, there were buses. There were buses, yes. O’Reagan: was that a long commute? Olson: Yes. I don’t remember the number of miles, but it’s a long commute from Richland into the West area. O’Reagan: What was your husband working on? Olson: He worked on—it was a group of scientists that were—13 or 14 or 15, something like that—and they wrote the separations process. Which was part of the process. O’Reagan: I guess that was probably a different part of the Hanford site from where you were working? Olson: No, it was in 200 West Area, too. Yes. And it was a group of scientists who had transferred from Oak Ridge along with Bob. O’Reagan: Right. Could you please describe Hanford as a place to work? It’s a broad question. Let’s see—what were some of the more challenging aspects of your job? Olson: Well, that I typed for eight hours a day. I typed or took dictation eight hours a day. No coffee breaks, nothing like that, and everything was confidential. Nobody discussed their job with any other person. O’Reagan: I would guess you would have had to have had pretty high clearance to be taking dictation on all these sensitive matters. What was that process like? Olson: Well, I worked in Two West and then I transferred to B Plant, and I went to 300 Area. My next job, I worked for Wilfred Johnson when he was assistant general manager. And I worked in the 703 Building. I had Top Secret clearance there. So I had kept the filing cabinet locked. I took dictation from him. The rest of it was the type you’re making phone calls. O’Reagan: When did you find out about what the goal of the Hanford site was, to make the weapons? Olson: When the bomb was dropped, I read it in the local paper. O’Reagan: What was your reaction? Olson: I was happy. That the US was going to be safe. O’Reagan: Right. Do you—trying to think how to phrase—is that your impression of that’s when everybody around you found out as well, or was it sort of a general surprise that the— Olson: Yes. It was a surprise to everybody, I think. That’s my opinion. Except the men like my husband who were working on it. O’Reagan: Did you continue working at the Hanford site after the war? Olson: Yes. I worked there for ten years. O’Reagan: Did your work change substantially once the war was over? Olson: Well, as I said, I worked as a secretary in 200 West, and then I moved to B Plant. And I worked in B Plant, and then I went to the 300 Area and was a secretary for the head of metallurgy. And then I had the job as—I was then an executive secretary for Wilfred “Bill” Johnson. And I retired after that period. O’Reagan: Did the workplace environment change in that time? You mentioned there were no breaks at first. Olson: Change in what way? O’Reagan: You mentioned it was very focused work during the war, no breaks, really concentrating to get the job done. Did that become more relaxed eventually, or was it still the same pace? Olson: Not in the jobs I worked on. Everybody was there to work. O’Reagan: Interesting. Olson: No coffee breaks, nothing like that. O’Reagan: Interesting. How about—can you tell us something about your life outside of work during the wartime? Olson: We skied. Bob was from Wisconsin. He was a skier. And I grew up in Panhandle, Texas, and I did not ski. But I took lessons. And we skied on weekends. O’Reagan: Where would you go? Olson: We went to the closest one, over by—the closest one, which was south of East Richland. Tollgate. We went to Tollgate and skied there. And then we went up to the Snoqualmie Pass, and we skied there when it had only three rope tows. Before they put in any kind of lifts. It was—and I don’t remember the year for that, but—shortly after we got here, we went to Snoqualmie Pass. O’Reagan: Did the social environment—did life in Richland change for you outside of work once the war was over? Olson: Well, there were a few more activities, because while the war was going on, there was nowhere to go. [LAUGHTER] We had a friend from Oak Ridge we played bridge with part of the time, and then we skied weekends. O’Reagan: Did you feel it was easy to meet new people when you moved here? Olson: Did I feel--? O’Reagan: I’ve heard some people say that when they first got here, they had a very easy time meeting people; I’ve heard other people say when they got here, they were so focused on the work, they didn’t get to meet as many people— Olson: Oh, no, no, because we had friends from Oak Ridge who were transferred who were scientists. And people who were at work in that kind of work. So we visited with them, and they—we all had a little group, all the people that came from Oak Ridge. So we had several friends. O’Reagan: Let’s see. Could you describe any ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Olson: Well, of course. [LAUGHTER] No visiting, no coffee breaks—we worked. O’Reagan: Did the secrecy continue outside of work? I’ve seen in some communities that people feel that they can’t talk about the work, and that sort of gets—someone last week was describing how she sort of felt she had to be on her guard about speaking about her work. She was afraid of that. Did you feel any sort of sense like that? Olson: We didn’t discuss—we did not discuss work, because we were busy with whatever we were doing—playing bridge or dancing or skiing. So there was no reason to discuss work. O’Reagan: Sure. When you retired from being a secretary, you mentioned you eventually got into real estate. Is that right? Olson: Yes. O’Reagan: Was that right away, or did you have a [INAUDIBLE] Olson: No, it was not. My husband died in 1974, and so I was at home. I did volunteer work for 20 years. I had no plans to go back to work, but after his death, I decided to work in real estate. O’Reagan: Will you tell us about your volunteer work? Olson: Oh, yes, Kadlec Hospital Auxiliary, and Mid-Columbia Symphony Guild, and Girl Scouts. All types of volunteer work. O’Reagan: Great. What kinds of things did you do at the hospital? Olson: Volunteer work. I would go down at 7:00 in the morning, and I answered the phone in one of the departments—I think it was the children’s department, that was part of what I did. O’Reagan: And when you started getting into real estate, can you tell me about that? Olson: Yes, yes. I took classes at CBC. I studied hard for it, and I passed the test. I started to work for a company called—let’s see—Sherwood and Roberts. They were a company that had offices in this state and California and some other state. I worked for them four years, and then I transferred to other companies. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Did that job change over time? I know the communities started expanding during that period— Olson: Oh, well, yes, there was more work as the company got larger. O’Reagan: Could you describe any ways in which you think of the Tri-Cities as changing over the first couple of decades you lived here? Olson: Well, it got larger. Larger, and they built more houses out past Winslow [LAUGHTER] Winslow Street. Well, of course it changed. There were more activities. Everybody was more—and there were people transferring in and out from large companies. There were a lot of people who came here who had worked for other companies that came here. And some had worked for General Electric or whoever the major contractor was. O’Reagan: Let’s see. Of course, during a lot of this era, the Cold War is going on as well. Did you feel that that was something sort of just off happening in the world, or was that something that you felt impacted your life? Olson: The Cold War? O’Reagan: Yeah, of course, there’s sort of this global conflict going on. There’s a lot of still building nuclear weapons, there’s thinking about use of nuclear weapons. Some people have described sort of a fear during that time, and other people have described they were happy—they went about their work and it didn’t bother them. Olson: No, there was no fear to me personally. I was happy to see that the US was doing a job extremely well. I hoped it would continue to be good. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Let’s see. This is a general question. How would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the period that you lived here? Olson: I think they should all be very proud of it, because it ended the war. O’Reagan: Right. Is there anything that you think children growing up today might not know about this period? Olson: I have no idea whether they know or not. O’Reagan: Sure. Is there anything you think, beyond—sorry, I have to—trying to think through, just—as people have lived here for some time start thinking back on their lives in the community, how they would like people to think about the history of the local community? I guess you’ve answered that to some degree: we should be proud about the contributions of the time. I guess what I’m trying to get at is—what was different in, say, the ‘60s or the ‘70s, in living in this era than it is today? Anything come to mind? Olson: I don’t think there was anything different from living in any good community or city. O’Reagan: One of the local community leaders here—we understand you knew Sam Volpentest— Olson: Yes. O’Reagan: --who contributed a lot to the local history. Would you describe your knowledge of his impact, what he was working on when you got to work with him? Olson: He was a major impact. He saved the Tri-Cities time after time after time. He made contacts in Washington, DC and he kept them. He flew back and forth frequently. Without his perseverance, the Tri-Cities would never have become as good as it had been. He kept sure that Hanford was going, which, at that time, was a main project in the Tri-Cities. And the best one producing. O’Reagan: I always like to ask—what have I not asked about that I should be asking about? What else should I be asking you about? Olson: Oh, I don’t know. Nothing else. [LAUGHTER] I think you asked very well, thank you. O’Reagan: Well, if anything comes to mind, or anything you’d like to expand upon comes to mind, we’d of course love to hear it. Olson: All right, thank you. O’Reagan: But otherwise, thanks so much for being here. It’s been very interesting. Olson: Thank you. O’Reagan: All right. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:19:21 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 West Area 300 Area 703 Building B Plant K-West Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1944-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1944- ~1974 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Wilfred "Bill" Johnson Sam Volpentest Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Olson Description An account of the resource An interview with Sue Olson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02-05-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 200 West Area 300 Area 703 Building B Plant Cold War DuPont General Electric Hanford K-West Area Manhattan Project School Street War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fecf6d23f2029be8777f7364c6e43f6d1.jpg 107947d118ec8047404f520b29342bda https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff48f8f7243653d2a40990d75bedb74ff.mp4 3bd7a80a24bfec4a2e2d7085d4e15964 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sutter, Sue Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sutter_Sue Robert Bauman: Well, I think we're ready to get started. Sue Sutter: All right. Bauman: So let's start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us. Sutter: Sue Sutter, S-U-T-T-E-R. Bauman: Great, thank you. And my name is Robert Bauman, and we're conducting this oral history interview on July 23rd of 2014, on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if you could start by telling us, first of all, when you came to Hanford and what brought you here. Sutter: Well, it all started when I was in college. I was at Washington State. It was a college then. And they came up there and interviewed, and they gave most of us jobs. They needed warm bodies down here. And so I had a job when I came down here in June 21st of 1948. Bauman: And what did you major in in college at WS--? Sutter: Chemistry. They needed a lot of chemists. And then when I came here, my folks brought me over from Seattle in a car. And we came to North Richland. Well, I signed in downtown, and we came out to North Richland, where I was supposed to go. And where I was assigned to live, at least temporarily, was in North Richland. It had a wire, a cyclone fence around it, topped by three rows of barbed wire. I think it was made for prisoners of war or something like that. I didn't think my parents were going to leave me there, but they did. And I'd never seen one before. They had a community shower, you know, like the men have. I was the only person there. And the next day, they found me a place downtown. I was in W5. W5 was the women's dorm. And it was right above the Green Hut Cafe, where everybody ate all the time, because that's about what it was, that and Thrifty Drug. And when I was there, I met some of the—it was when I was going through the hospital, one of my friends from college was working there, and she happened to be in the same dorm. And I went. That was about it. And I don't remember starting work. And where do you want to go from here now? Bauman: Well, what was your first job? What sort of work were you doing? Sutter: Oh, what they called essential materials. It was in 300 Area. And everything that came on to the plant had to be chemically verified. And that was what that job was. And I was working there for about three years. And then I got married. That's where I met my husband. He was in the lab, too—a chemist. Bauman: What were your first impressions when you arrived in the area here? Do you remember? Sutter: No, I don't. After you've gone away to college, I went over on the train from college, you're used to things changing at that time. It didn't strike me as odd at all. What was odd was that when I first came, I was in North Richland and I had to eat out of the cafeteria there. And it was all full of construction workers. [LAUGHTER] But I survived. But I was only out there a couple of days, and then I moved to town. Bauman: And you said you worked for three years out at the 300 Area then? Sutter: Yes. Bauman: And you met your husband. Was your husband also working there? Sutter: Yeah, we were in 3706 Building, which has long since been destroyed. Bauman: And you mentioned your dorm was right above the cafe. Sutter: Yeah. Oh, that's it. And there were a lot of young people here. They had money and no place to go. And so every weekend—a few of them had cars—so we all left town. And we went down to Lost Lake in Oregon on one trip. And I remember one trip we went to Long Beach, Washington, and just various around here. Because there was nothing here. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I was going to ask you, was there anything in town for entertainment? Sutter: Oh, I think there was a movie theater. And Thrifty Drug. I don't recall any particular entertainment. Of course, we were here for working. Well, that's why we left town. Bauman: So after three years working at the 300 Area, you got married. Where did you live it at point then? Sutter: Oh, we were able to get a house. Houses were assigned to married people. We lived on Farrell Lane. And we lived there for about three years. And then they decided they were going to sell all the houses, and that's when we bought the house in Kennewick. You have the information on selling the houses. Bauman: Right, yes. Sutter: We were the junior tenants in a duplex. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sutter: And we moved to Kennewick, and we stayed there ever since. We were lucky to find a house that worked very well for us over there. Bauman: So let's go back to your work, then, a little bit. What was your work like? How was it as a place to work, the 300 Area, when you were there? Sutter: It was just a lab. There were a lot of funny people working there, different people working there. One of the technicians, she stole all the cheesecloth, and she wrapped it around her head and took it out with her every day. [LAUGHTER] But I can't remember much of working. I'm sorry. Bauman: That's okay. That's fine. And did your husband continue working then there at the same area? Sutter: No, after I got pregnant, I stayed home. And it was 1965, I think, when I went back to work. I worked for Battelle. And I worked there until I retired. Bauman: And what kind of job was that? Sutter: Well, it varied. At Battelle, you do whatever needs to be done. And I was—I've forgotten. I was working at a lab at first. And I ended up helping with quality assurance for some of the people. That was a good job. Bauman: And how long did you work there, then? Sutter: I retired in 1968. Is that right? Man one: I think it was after I got out of high school. Did you tell them about you were a wind tunnel scientist? Sutter: Oh, yeah, I worked in atmospheric sciences after some time at Battelle. And I operated a wind tunnel. And this was for—they were trying to find out how much would blow around out on the site. And so we went out and picked up samples on the dirt. And then we put measured amounts in the wind tunnel and see how far it goes and how long it stayed there, that type of information. And all this went into the environmental impact statement that they had to make when they were operating. And the annoying thing is, everybody thought my husband did that work. [LAUGHTER] It's the way it was. Bauman: When you first came in 1948 and were in the women's dorms, did you take buses to get out to the site? Sutter: Yes. But I don't remember anything. I know we had to take buses. You could not drive cars in on the site then. Oh, that's it. We took one bus, and we went up to the bus lot, and then you got on to the bus that took you out to where you were working. Quite an operation. Bauman: And when you then went back to work in the '60s, were you still taking buses? Or were you driving your own car out there? Sutter: There were still buses. I've forgotten where I was working. And then for a while, when I got transferred out to the atmospheric sciences building, the meteorological station, I rode out to that area with my husband. Because he was in 2-West at that time. He was a supervisor. Bauman: And when you started working in 1948 as a chemist, were there are a lot of other women chemists at Hanford at the time? Sutter: There were several of us, about five or six—I mean, considering all, yes. Bauman: So you lived in Richland for a while, got married, then you moved to Kennewick. Is that right? Sutter: Yes. Bauman: Okay. One of events that happened, I know, was in 1963, President Kennedy came to dedicate the N Reactor. Do you remember that at all? Sutter: Oh, I remember it. I took my three children out there with me. I was not working then, and then we drove out there. And all I can remember is this one over here, she ran away. And I decided I wasn't going to even be worried about her, because I wanted to see Kennedy. He was quite a charismatic person. And Paul was there, too. We were all there. And I have another daughter, too. Bauman: Do you remember much about the day itself? Sutter: It was about 80 degrees. Oh, and I can remember Kennedy was so surprised when he started the reactor with a probe of some kind. A lot of traffic. Took me a long time to get home. My husband had gone out there. Everybody who worked there went there on buses, and so he got home way long time before I did. [LAUGHTER] It was well attended. Bauman: Do you remember any other events or incidents, things that happened when you either were working at Hanford or living in the area here? Sutter: I can't think of any right now. Man one: What about your dorm social clubs? Sutter: My what? Man one: The social clubs in the dorm? Sutter: Oh, yeah, we belonged to the dorm club. That's the one that we went someplace every weekend. That's just the dorm club. Oh, and they had dances in town, too. In fact, I think I brought over a picture of one of those if you—you can have them. Bauman: Great. Man one: The Sadie Hawkins Day dance. Sutter: They don't have Sadie Hawkins anymore. Bauman: They do, actually. Sutter: Do they? Bauman: The high schools do. Sutter: Okay, but we were all just a little bit older. But you just had to make your own entertainment. And that was a good one. Bauman: So did you and your husband meet at work? Sutter: Yes. Bauman: At the 300 Area? Sutter: Actually in 300 Area. Oh, and another thing we used to do is everybody drank beer. We'd go out by the Yakima River and drink beer after work in the evening, swing shift or something. It was just fun. Bauman: Mm-hm. So you've seen a lot of change in the time that you-- Sutter: Oh, my Lord, yes. Bauman: Obviously one change that happened at Hanford was a shift from production to cleanup. Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit. Sutter: Well, all I did was run the wind tunnel. We generated information so they could do the environmental impact statement before they started doing something out there. And we'd go out in the field, and I know they had picked up all kind of material to run through the wind tunnel to see what happened to it. Bauman: I know there was a lot of emphasis on security at Hanford and secrecy. Can you talk about that at all, what that was like? Sutter: It was pretty straightforward. You had a badge, and you had to show it every time you went in and out. And it went pretty easily. Bauman: Were you able to talk about your work at all? Sutter: You weren't supposed to. But it wasn't interesting work, so I didn't want to talk about it anyway. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: And what about the community itself? How did that change over the years? Sutter: Well, the community, they built the ranch houses. And we got a lot of bad dust storms then. And I was home with children, and you just don't get out in the community much. There wasn't much here that’s all. Man one: Mom? Sutter: Yes? Man one: Did you ever talk about an incident, I guess you were down on the river and security came out to see what you were doing or something like that? Sutter: I don't remember anything like that. Man one: Oh, okay. I thought I—Or boating or something and the army showed up? Woman one: Well, there was a-- Sutter: You should have prepped me for this. Woman one: Wasn't there a military base, too? Sutter: A what? Woman one: A military base out there, Camp Hanford? Sutter: Well, yeah, Camp Hanford was there for a while, yeah. I don't remember. I wasn't working when it was Camp Hanford. I can remember baking a cake for the soldiers. That's about it. Bauman: Oh, did you? Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: Was there a specific reason for baking a cake? Sutter: Oh, I belonged to a club. And that was their project that they were on, and so I've participated, just once that I can remember. We lived in a B house. Oh, and all the coal was furnished free, coal furnace in the basement. [LAUGHTER] You don't know about those. My husband called it the iron monster because you'd have to bang it so it would start the next morning. He was on shift work, and it's not the best way to go. Bauman: So were you renting the B house then? Sutter: You paid some rent. There was nominal rent. It was cheap. And as I remember, they furnished the coal. And if something happened, you just called down, like my dear son, he's flushed potatoes down the toilet. And you'd call somebody, and the plumber comes out immediately and takes care of it. Man one: And what did you do that night for dinner? Sutter: I gave you potato soup. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So a lot of the service or repair work was-- Sutter: It was done by somebody. They were just like a landlord. But you had to mow the lawn and water it. Bauman: You had to take care of yard, that sort of thing. So how long did your husband work at Hanford then? Sutter: Until he retired. I think he worked there for 50 years. No, not that long. Woman one: Well, if he was working in '76 when I was in high school. Sutter: Yeah, I don't remember how long. But he worked there until he retired. It was a good job. You could move from job to job at that time because it was all under one contractor. And he worked in 2 East and 2 West as well as I think North Richland. Bauman: So what was the most challenging--was there any part of your work that you did at Hanford that you would think was sort of the most challenging thing that you did or the most rewarding? Sutter: I think the most fun was just before I retired. It was when I was running a wind tunnel, and it was out in 2 East Area in an old evaporator building. I remember there were just the two of us. I was there with a technician, and we had a wind tunnel. And all these things that we’d gathered out on the terrain, we'd put them in the wind tunnel to see what they were going to do and how far they would go. And then this was put into a report that I wrote. And the annoying thing is, everybody thought my husband wrote it. Because they just put it with your initials. Bauman: What were the findings of that report? Do you remember what did you-- Sutter: I have no idea. It didn't matter to us. This much went along, and if you're a researcher, you just give them the results. I think they were able to do all the work anyway. But it was fun. You'd go out, and you'd gather up these—there were rabbits out there. And they liked to sit on top of the hills. And so that was a rich place to get samples. Research is really fun work. Because it doesn't matter. You get an answer. And that's the answer. If they don't like it, that's their problem. Bauman: Overall, then, how was Hanford as a place to work? Sutter: Well, I unfortunately had a manager—I shouldn't--he was Mormon. And he didn't think women should be working. However, the next level up really believed in women. So he's the one that--I was treasurer for the local ACS. And I wanted to go to the meeting in Hawai’i. And my immediate manager wouldn't let me, but the next one up sent me. When you're an officer, they usually will let you go to something like that. So that's how I got to Hawai’i. I figure all the men do it, and so I was trying to do the same thing. Bauman: That's a good place to go for a conference. Sutter: Yeah, oh, yes. One of the women from another contractor was there, and she even came to the meetings in her bathing suit, if came at all. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: When was this about that you did that? Sutter: Well, I was still working, so I don't really-- Bauman: The '60s? Sutter: Yeah. I can't remember that long ago. Bauman: Is there anything I haven't asked you about yet or that you haven't talked about that you think is important to talk about? Sutter: No, I can't think of anything. Man one: What was it like being a woman and working in this area, predominantly male? Sutter: Well, that didn't bother me except some of them are prejudiced against women. And actually, when I was out, we had the lab out where the wind tunnel in 2 East. And the fellow I worked with was really good. He was a farmer from over in Pasco. He raised apples. But he would just do anything that needed to be done. It didn't matter whether you were a woman or man. He'd do anything. Oh, the funny thing about that is the building that we had, they had a restroom in it. And they didn't have a door on it. So my manager had them put a door in it. But they put a door in it with a window. [LAUGHTER] So they had to change the door. Bauman: That didn't help a whole lot, did it? Sutter: No, but there were just the two of us working there. We had to report over to the Atmospheric Sciences building and then drive over to where the wind tunnel was. Bauman: Oh, I see, okay. Woman one: Mom, you shared with me the difficulty at getting a raise, the difficulty getting a raise in pay. Bauman: Did you have difficulty getting a raise? Sutter: Oh, yeah. My manager said the raise is--this is more than I wanted to give you. He wanted the raises for the men, because they have a family to take care of. He doesn't realize I have all these kids to take care of, too, and one daughter who went on to college and is now an engineer out there. Bauman: Were you able to get the raise? Sutter: Oh, yeah, oh, yes. You have to be persistent. Bauman: Do you happen to remember what your salary was, say, when you started in 1948 at all? Sutter: It's about $100 a week. I don't really remember. It was adequate for the time. Bauman: Do you remember any other challenges being a woman working there in the 1940s and 1960s? Sutter: Well, like that this one manager who just didn't believe in women. Bauman: But you said the person above him-- Sutter: Just fine person, yeah. And that's always helpful. Bauman: Right. I don't think I have any more questions for you. Man one: Oh, excuse me. What was it like raising us kids in an area that didn't have a lot of support services and it was just all your contemporaries and nobody had any relatives in town or anything like that? Sutter: I never thought about it. Man one: It was what it was and you just coped with it? Sutter: Yeah. Oh, and then I remember we babysat back and forth. I remember my friend Dusty was babysitting and Paul, all he'd do is hide in the closet. [LAUGHTER] That was a long time ago. Bauman: But you'd find ways to help each other out? Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: Take care of the kids. Woman one: And Dad was from--where was Dad from? New York? Man one: Yeah, he went to University of Buffalo and was recruited out there. Bauman: So you mentioned you went to Washington State College. Where were you from initially? When did you grow up? Sutter: I was grown up in Seattle. Bauman: Oh, okay. Sutter: And I went to college starting in home economics, and that's a dumb major. They don't give you anything challenging. And the only thing I liked the first year was chemistry, and that's why I majored in that. Man one: I was curious. I kind of recalled once hearing a story about the way you met Dad was you accidentally left some battery acid on a stool or something like this? And it left a stain on his pants? Sutter: I don't remember anything like that. No, he was just out there in the same lab. And then he was in this group that went on trips. He was one with a car! Man one: So that made him popular? Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: So he went on some of these trips. You were part of the group? Sutter: Yeah. Oh, we went down to Lost Lake in Oregon. I can remember that. And I knew Steve Buckingham. We were up there. Snow was on the ground. And he went in the water. And he said, it's warm! I can remember that one. Man one: How many people would go on the trips? Sutter: Yeah. Man one: I mean, it was like four or five? Sutter: Yeah, about that, because you just had cars. You didn't have anything big. There were no buses or anything taking you. Woman one: So lack of family support, you built some really good friendships that you still have now. Sutter: Yeah. Bauman: About how often did you go on these trips? Sutter: Oh, I'd say once a month or something. There was various degrees. It depends on what came to mind, what the people wanted. Man one; What about the one where you left town and you got someplace and set up camp in the middle the night and Steve Buckingham found a-- Sutter: Oh, yeah, we were going over to Orcas Island. That was where we were going. And so we camped near Anacortes, and it was dark. And when we woke up, we found we camped in the garbage dump. [LAUGHTER] We went on our trip. Bauman: That's a great story. Well, I want to thank you for coming in today and sharing your stories. And we're going to go ahead and make copies of the photos that you brought in. Sutter: Oh, yeah, they're over there. I don't know. A lot of them you don't want. Man one: Oh, I don't know. There's a lot of them that were-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:26:58 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 3706 building 200 west area 200 east area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948-2014 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1948-1968 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Kennedy, John F. Buckingham, Steve Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Sutter Description An account of the resource An interview with Sue Sutter conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-7-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item." Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-07: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 200 Area 300 Area Building 3706 Housing Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F712db5c75473a99e3dbf4664f6f10242.jpg f9aba4c53b6f6ba762f9e423cfcb49df https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd045615a1d2760d5c969f0523b0cb44a.mp4 79ba2bc7213c3768ca0e9682f30654ea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sydney Proter Description An account of the resource An interview with Sydney Proter conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F90627f1dc8d48cfd156af27178b9863d.JPG ca157672f93a9363c189d29f81b4dce6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ted Anderson Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Ted Anderson on May 11, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Ted about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Ted Anderson: [LAUGHTER] Okay. Theodore. Dahlin. Anderson. That’s T-H-E-O-D-O-R-E. D-A-H-L-I-N. A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N. Franklin: Great. Thank you so much. And you prefer Ted, right? Anderson: Yeah, yes. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Well, there’s a little story here to that. Theodore is a compound name. Theo—it’s from the Greek. Theo is God; Dore is gift. So Theodore is gift of God. Ted, on the other hand, is to spread hay or manure. [LAUGHTER] Okay. Franklin: That’s good. So, Ted, tell me, how and why did you come to the Hanford Site? Anderson: How? Well, I’d had on-campus interview in 1967 with a representative from the Site here. Franklin: And where was this interview? Anderson: University of New Mexico. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I didn’t take a site trip. But then I went to work for DuPont back in Virginia, and became somewhat unhappy there. Having gone to school in Albuquerque with all sorts of desert, basically, around and mountains and stuff. That’s where Hanford sort of is. So I gave a call to Dr. Watson, who was the recruiter here, and said, you still interested in me? Oh, yeah, when can you get here? So then I came cross-country with my wife, my daughter, and two cars. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: So, that was 1969. Franklin: And when you were—so you did your—which degree did you do at— Anderson: Chemical engineering. Franklin: Chemical engineering, and was that a bachelor’s? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. So what job did you come to do at Hanford in ’69? Anderson: [LAUGHTER] Came to work at Hanford. They were going to put me—well, I went to work in Tank Farms. But when I started out, all I knew was I was going to work at a nuclear reservation. Which, of course, at the time, there was a lot of secrecy. So they’re not going to tell you a lot until you get here. Franklin: Mm. So not knowing much about what exactly you’d be doing, what attracted you to come work at Hanford? Anderson: Basically, that it was desert, like New Mexico. And it was something new and different. I was probably a bit curious. I liked being in New Mexico where you could see for 50 miles, rather than in Virginia, where you’re lucky if you could see for a quarter of a mile. So, came out here. And of course, when we were first coming down from Spokane, and it’s June, late June coming up on July, and the wife is starting to look at all this brown country, because it’s desert. And she’s sort of looking at me, like, where have you brought us? Anyhow, that’s how I got here. Franklin: I think I and my wife had the same experience when we first moved out here. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: Where am I? This is not the Washington I signed up for. Anderson: Yeah, where’s this “Evergreen State”? Franklin: So, you eventually went to work in the Tank Farms. So, I’m wondering if you could tell us, quickly, what the Tank Farms are, but then what your job, what your duties were there. Anderson: Well, there was radioactive waste that was created through the processing of spent fuel to get plutonium. The aqueous waste went into underground tanks. They’re nominally in the neighborhood of a million gallons. The first ones were 750,000 and later ones are actual full million gallons, 75 feet in diameter. They were basically concrete tanks with carbon-steel liners. So that’s where the waste went from reprocessing. Franklin: Were these tanks from like the World War II era on? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay, so these were the single-shell— Anderson: Well— Franklin: What were known as the single— Anderson: Later on there were double-shell tanks, but initially what I was looking after was—I think there was some—I don’t remember if there were any double-shell tanks when I first started. There may have been, but— Franklin: So what was your job with the tanks? Anderson: I was shift engineer. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Rotating shifts. There was a number of units—I had specific responsibility for two of them, which was ITS, In-Tank Solidification Units number 1 and 2. But I covered the entire Tank Farms, both East and West Area. So any time there was issues with waste transfers—they had another evaporator, 242-T, over in West Area. So I would make my rounds of Tank Farm operations. If there was any problems, try to troubleshoot. If it was something I couldn’t troubleshoot, then I’d make a little note of it and turn it in to the powers-that-be at shift change. Franklin: Which contractor was running the Tank Farms when you got here? Anderson: That was the Atlantic-Richfield Hanford Company. Franklin: Okay. So what was the primary—what was the goal of managing—like, when you say managing the tanks, what were the goals of that, what were the outcomes of tank management? Anderson: Oh, we were still producing a lot of aqueous waste. I mean, PUREX was in full operation. B Plant was processing waste to remove the cesium and strontium to try to get to a point where we could solidify waste. So, yeah, we were trying to accommodate the waste from—this is Cold War, of course. So there’s some pressure to make plutonium. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: Although, I think we did way too good a job at it. Eventually, when you think the first bomb was talking about grams, and eventually we produced something over 16 tons, we learned altogether too well how to—but anyhow. For just the start of things, we’re trying to make space for the aqueous waste that’s produced primarily from fuel reprocessing but also from other processes. Franklin: Right, because there were several processes of the waste, right? There were several different chemical—distinct chemical processes for reprocessing spent fuel. Anderson: Oh, yeah, yeah. The first was what was referred to as BiPO-4. That’s bismuth phosphate, Bi-P-O-4. And that, they were just after the plutonium. So that was the initial thing. That’s how we got our plutonium for the first bomb. Then they decided that there was an awful lot of uranium that was going out with the aqueous waste. So they had, among other things, what they called a heavy metal recovery program, where they would reprocess the waste that was already in the tank and try to remove the uranium so it could be made back into fuel assemblies. Franklin: Were the tanks designed for the waste to be pumped in and out of them in this fashion? Anderson: They were made to transfer between tanks. Recovery—because partly what went out was liquid and part of it was solids. The uranium was in the solids, so you had to have some sluicing in the tank. And, no, the tanks were not built with the idea that you would remove solids from them. Franklin: To reprocess. Anderson: To reprocess. We did, but—then there was some over things that—they had what they called a space recovery program. So they hit waste in several tanks in East Area with a cyanide solution that precipitated, pretty quantitatively, the radioactive material out. And then they pumped the supernatant across the road to what they called BC Crib Area, which was open trenches, a specific retention site. The waste was pumped into there until they had—specific retention meant they didn’t want it to go all the way to the groundwater. So they calculate what the soil column could hold. When it reached that level, they moved it. So that was another thing they did. As I said, B Plant was in operation when I got there. There, they were separating the strontium and cesium from tank waste and encapsulating it. At the Waste Encapsulation and Solidification Facility, WESF. Again, the idea was that eventually they wanted to solidify the tanks with the waste inside, and that was going to be the permanent disposal. Which, to tell you a little story here, the initial work they did, they took samples out at the tanks. Very small samples, because it’s hot, radioactively. And they sent it to what was in those days PNL. That’s before they got the extra N. Franklin: Right. Anderson: Then they concentrated it. And they said it was concentrated by a factor of four and allowed to cool. It became a solid mass. Then they extrapolated that, or tried to, to million-gallon tanks. It didn’t really work that way. [LAUGHTER] There was multiple challenges. For instance, ITS-2, which was in Tank 112B-Y, used big immersion heaters, like million-watt immersion heaters, to heat the liquid in the tank and boil it. Then it was moved from 112B-Y to a series of what they called bottoms tanks where it was supposed to cool and solids settle out. We were going to create more space for more waste so we don’t have to build more tank farms. Trouble is it didn’t really happen like that; you had selective precipitation. It didn’t just set up all at once. Certain compounds would settle out and they formed a crust on top of the liquid, which didn’t help with the cooling, because the idea was that this hot stuff would go out into these tanks and the tanks were ventilated and you would evaporate more water. So that didn’t work. Then they put in airlift circulators which were supposed to open up the surface. That worked for a while, but eventually, you get down to maybe ten feet in diameter for the airless circulators. So it was an ongoing challenge. And there was some really funny chemistry. For instance in, well, no, 2B-Y, which was, yeah, in-tank unit 1. I was there; I was in-charge engineer, where we’d take a sample and send it over to the 222-S Lab. Well, the sample—and, you know, you didn’t want to get real close to it. We’d ship it in these pigs, lead-shelled containers. Went over to the lab, and I filled out the sheet that says here’s what the characteristics were, which was a clear, yellow liquid. Then I get a call a couple days later from the lab that says, your sample sheet says it was a clear, yellow liquid. What we’ve got has lots of solids in it. Well, it had cooled, okay? So, you know. Put a magnetic stirrer in it—and this is all going to happen in a hot zone. Put the magnetic stirrer on it and heat it up. Steve Buckingham was the lead engineer then, lead chemist. Bucky as he was fondly known. And he called me up and he said, it’s been on there for two days. Still full of solids. So what had happened, apparently, was there was an irreversible precipitation. In other words, it wasn’t just a compound that precipitated out that could be re-dissolved; there was a chemical reaction that had happened when it cooled. Very strange material, because there were so many chemicals in it—and we tried to replicate the waste so we could do cold testing. They were never able to get physical characteristics and chemical characteristics in the same surrogate. You could mimic the physical characteristics; you could mimic some of the chemical characteristics; but you couldn’t do both in a cold sample. So, yeah, some really strange stuff. Franklin: Yeah, no kidding. Wasn’t—this precipitating out of water, I understand that to kind of get the material to be more of a solid, to save space—would that water have carried any kind of radioactive traces with it as it was precipitating out? Anderson: Oh, yeah. So, as it came off, like, 112B-Y, we had condensers to cool it down. And then the air was put through a HEPA, High Efficiency Particulate Air filters. So that, again, what was released had minimal if any contamination in it. Franklin: Mm. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Anderson: I said, HEPA filters were nominally good for about 106 decontamination factor. So, yeah. It cleaned up the air pretty good. Franklin: Well, that’s good. What would be done with these filters, because I assume after a while they would be radioactive themselves, right? Anderson: Oh, yes, yeah. You could flush them. But ultimately, they didn’t really—there were things that plated out on them that would increase the delta pressure, dp as it was known, to the point where you can’t clean them enough to—and they were only good for maybe six inches dp before they could be ruptured, pulled through. So, yeah, another little story from—there was something called AR Vault, which was used when you recovered stuff from A Farm, AX Farm Tanks, it would go into AR Vault. They were recovering sludge. When they got enough of it, then they would pump it over to B Plant, okay. The way this was set up, there was four tanks in this semi canyon building. There’s a big open door at the end of it, where if you needed to bring equipment in, you could. Okay, well, there’s cover blocks, so once you bring the equipment in, you close the doors, then you could take the cover blocks off. So there’s two different speeds on the HVAC, heating ventilation air conditioning, system. One was the normal, when that door at the end of the thing was closed. And the other was when it’s open, you really crank it up. So I was shift engineer and talking to the operator there. At that point, AR Vault was not actively being used. There was a little lull in our processing. So he’s running on to me, he said, they really need to change those filters out on radiation levels. Not just wait for the differential pressure to go up. And I said, yeah, good point. So I wrote up a little, what we called DSIs. Don’t Say It, write it. I left that for management; said, here’s my recommendation. Well, about three years later, I’m working on low level waste management, and I heard that they quote-unquote sucked the filter at AR Vault. I thought, oh, well, hmm, okay. Not too long after that, I get a call from somebody that said, I’m just reading your memo here. Why didn’t they take action on that? I said, did you look at the date on that? Oh, that was quite a while ago! [LAUGHTER] Because what had happened is, with AR sitting there basically not doing a lot of processing, but you’re still ventilating, still getting some particulate, it kept loading the filters. But the airflow rate was low. So now they’re going to open up the canyon doors and they jack the airflow up. And of course, delta-p is not linear; it’s an asymptotic thing, with airflow. So when they jacked airflow up, it sucked the filter. Well, now, the filter was supposed to be contact-maintained. That is, you could go in and manually take it into a disposal container. Well, as the operator had pointed out, they didn’t change it out on radiation readings, and now it’s too hot to do it manually. So now what they had to do—and we’re talking about a rather large assembly. So now what they had to do is go in a considerable ways away from this filter assembly and open up the line, and build a parallel one and reroute it around to go through a whole new filter thing. And then they had to take the whole old filter thing out and bury it. So, you know, it’s things like that that there tended to be not a lot of thinking about what the potential is. So anyhow. One of the little stories. Franklin: That’s great, that’s a great story. So how long did you work as a Tank Farm shift engineer? Anderson: Well, initially, I did it for—let’s see, ’69 to like sometime in ’72. And then I was on days for a while. And then I think they thought I was a bit persistent on some things. So then they—you know, please don’t throw me in the briar patch—they put me on shift work. I like shift work. You can shop when the stores are not crowded. Things like, we had a popcorn club for the operators. Of course, I’m—you hang out with the operators. So, yeah, they’d buy popcorn in 50-pound bags. They’d buy popcorn in 5-gallon tanks. You paid a couple bucks a month; if you wanted to make popcorn, you went down to CR Vault—CR Tank Farm, rather—and got popcorn and oil and went back to where your lunch room and made popcorn. I mean, it was—there’s a lot of camaraderie when you’re working with people like that. So, yeah. I liked working shift work. When my daughter finally got into school, it was not quite as much fun. Because she and my wife could sort of adjust when she didn’t have to go to school. But then when she was in school, it started getting a little more challenging. But anyhow, that’s—I went back on shiftwork. Worked on shift work probably until, I’m thinking early ’75. Then back on day shift again. And finally, August of ’75, I decided I’d had enough and I quit. Franklin: So you quit the Tank Farm? Anderson: I quit the job. Franklin: Quit the job. Anderson: Yeah. I was, at that point, farming quite a few acres and had some rentals, and was looking forward to just doing my thing, thank you. Franklin: Yeah. Was there a particular incident that led you to quit, or—I’m wondering if you could kind of describe what happened to come to that decision. Anderson: Well, one of the problems was is that, again, management tended to be shortsighted, as in the AR Vault incident. I was told that my resignation letter, it was probably at one time or another in hundreds of files out there because people thought it was such a wonderful letter. But, you know, just—very shortsighted, wouldn’t listen to good technical advice. And again, not well-managed. So I basically out of frustration just said, you know, I don’t think I need this. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Do you think that was particular to the Tank Farm, the tank unit, or would that have been like a contractor-wide issue? Anderson: To some extent, it was contractor-wide. I think the Tank Farms may have been—but then again, maybe it’s just because I had that personal knowledge of Tank Farms. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: Because there was other things that—it was always a short-term solution. Not looking out and saying, okay, how’s this going to work ten years from now, 20 years from now? It was more like, how is this going to work next month. So anyhow, yeah. And then of course eventually I went back to work for PNL. I was doing the initial waste vitrification demonstration. Franklin: So, tell me, how did you come to go back to work—you said you wanted to kind of do your own thing for—you know. But how did you end up coming back to waste management? Anderson: [LAUGHTER] Well, I was drawing unemployment because I had—well, another story. I quit and then I filed for unemployment and ARCO was going to dispute that. And I thought, oh, good, because I had lots of documentation of not being employed to use my chemical engineering education. Which is, you know, if you quit with cause and you can demonstrate the cause, you get unemployment. You have to wait seven weeks, or you did then, but you—you know. So I had done that. Then the wife and I—there was supposed to be a hearing in, I think, December. And the wife and I had gone off to Hawaii for a little bit of vacation. Came back, and lived in Benton City at that time, which had no home delivery of mail. You had to be a post office box. So we went up to the post office box, and here’s a stack of unemployment checks. ARCO dropped their—apparently, they decided that they didn’t want to get any legal go-arounds. So then I drew unemployment for as long as I could. When I got into my final 13-week unemployment thing, they were really insisting that I do some serious interviewing. Of course, I have to confess that one of the things that I thought made me unemployable was I had tried to unionize the engineers. [LAUGHTER] Anderson: Yeah, okay. Franklin: Yeah, that kind of will sometime earn the ire of management. Anderson: Well, they wouldn’t have dared to do anything like fire me, but they wouldn’t have dared to do anything like hire me back. Franklin: Right, right. Anderson: So anyhow I was interviewing with Jack McElroy, who was PNL. And they wanted me to help with—they were doing a waste vitrification demonstration project. They needed help, and I had a lot of background. He said, all I ask is one thing: promise you won’t engage in any unionizing activities—organizing activities. And I said, you got it. So, then I was working for PNL. Franklin: So, sorry, I’m very curious. I want to go back a bit because you just mentioned this unionizing thing now. What led you to that kind of activism when you were at your job at ARCO? Why did you try to unionize? Anderson: Because other people were having the same problems I was. The people—good people tended to be leaving. So your overall quality of the people you work with can tend to go down with times. And there’s a lot of people that, you’d talk, and they’d talk, but they don’t do anything. And I’ve never been one to—if you’re going to talk the talk, walk the walk. So I got together, we—what was it, the Hanford Employees—anyhow, we had a whole bunch of people with names that were interested in doing this. We quickly decided that we really couldn’t afford to do this if we were being challenged in court, because we didn’t have the resources. So then we contacted some professional unions, for instance, Boeing, their union. Their engineers are unionized, and we talked with them. Campbell’s Soup Company, of all things, was unionized and had their technical people in that. So, yeah, we were moving down that road. One of the things that stopped us was we didn’t want to be sucked up into another organization. It was beginning to look like you’re going to have trouble maintaining your independence if you get the help you need to fight the corporate people. Franklin: Right, because they’re going to want—another union would want your membership to bolster their ranks. Anderson: Yeah, and of course, none of them really understood Hanford, which was going to be another problem. So, that was basically—we said, no, this probably, it’s not the right time, maybe it’s not the right—you know. But apparently we had scared the tar out of management. I was told that there was some really serious conferences down in the Federal Building, fondly known as the Fed Shed, of people wondering what to do if we actually officially tried to unionize. I didn’t know I’d caused all that consternation, but—[LAUGHTER] Franklin: I guess word about you had spread. Anderson: Well, actually, there was three of us. I’m trying to think who the other two were. I can’t think of their names just offhand. But we actually were on TV, interviewed. You know, this is what we’re thinking about. Okay. But they’d say, these are engineers you’re working with who tend to be horribly practical. You know, you look down the road and you say, you know, I don’t know how this is going to work, and if we give up our independence, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to attract enough people to really get a viable vote. So we finally said, okay. Heavy sigh. But meanwhile, they made some changes for the engineering. Because engineering wage increases had been lagging the craftworkers, the union members. They were getting like 5, 6% a year, and we were getting like 4%. Which was one of the sticking point, you know. The squeaky wheel gets oiled, so let’s us be a squeaky wheel. Franklin: Do you know of any other—I assume you did your research in some of these other companies. Did you find any other atomic sites that had had engineers that had unionized? Anderson: Not that I recall, no. I’m sorry. There was one other professional union we had talked to. I want to say that maybe it was 3M but I don’t recall. I know Campbell’s and Boeing were the two for sure that we talked to. Franklin: Yeah, Campbell’s is very interesting. I wouldn’t have— Anderson: Oh, and United Auto Workers, also. That was another one. Franklin: Ah. Anderson: They’re union—their engineers were unionized. So yeah. Franklin: Cool, well, thank you. I’d not heard of that attempt before, so it’s really, that’s interesting. Anderson: Oh, okay, well, good. Franklin: One last question, too, before we go to your time at PNNL, about the Tank Farms. I’m getting the sense that, from your perspective, that there was much more of a—that tank waste management at that time was more about finding more room for waste to continue production than it was about ensuring the safety—or kind of the safety and stability of the tanks. Or, it seemed like there was more short-term focus than long-term planning. Anderson: Well, yeah. Franklin: Because that waste would have to sit there. Was there any talk of where that waste would go? Whether it be a repository or what would happen to it? Anderson: No, the assumption was it was going to be solidified in the tanks and left. Franklin: Oh. Really? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. As in—from an engineer’s perspective, would that have been a feasible project? Anderson: It would’ve taken—for instance, what you wound up with, with the successive evaporations, is a very caustic solution. When it cools it doesn’t really solidify, it just gets thick. Sodium hydroxide, basically, lye. So one of the things that was talked about was the fact you get the tank to a certain point and you load it up with grout, cement, basically. We also did some experiments with fly ash, because that would absorb liquid. But again, in those days, there was no talk of the waste coming out of the tanks. Vitrification was not on the table. Franklin: Had there been any—had all the tanks maintained their stability at that point? Had there been any— Anderson: Oh, no, no. I’ll tell you the story about the tar rings. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Okay. I say, these tanks are basically concrete tanks with carbon steel liners. Okay, well, we were developing in-tank photography. A good friend of mine, Jerry Everett, was the lead on that. He was with PNL, a photographer. So they developed techniques for lowering a camera into the tank and rotating it. So you got—and you could build a montage of the interior of the tank. Well, about the second tank they did that to, you could see there were black rings around certain points. Okay. Well, the tanks between the carbon steel and the cement was mastic, as they called it—tar. Because that was meant to basically seal it tight between the—okay. Well, now, if you’re seeing tar, that indicates that the carbon steel integrity is gone. Okay. And it was all sorts of theories about how that could happen. Potentially, they talked about microorganisms that could withstand the radiation and oxidize. And of course, young engineer and I expounding on some of these to one of the old operators. And he said, iron-loving biota, my ass. Oh? What happened? He says, they just jumped an un-neutralized batch out. Because the processing was done on the acid side. And then you hit it with caustics so it would be compatible with the carbon steel. And he said, so, you know, if you didn’t get the caustic added to the batch, it would go out to the tank, it would potentially float on the surface and eat up the carbon steel. And I said, so, is that written down some place? And he looked at me like I was an idiot. He said, hell no! I said, what did you do? Put the caustic down the pipe after it! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: With no mixing. Anderson: No. Of course, then the record shows you’ve used caustic. Here’s, we used however many gallons. [LAUGHTER] Okay, so there’s stories like that that I’m sure nobody would really want to admit, even today, but that’s what the operators said occasionally happened. You’d send an un-neutralized batch out. Of course, there was other things that went on. Like, S-X Farm over in West Area. It had initially been bottoms tanks for REDOX. And then they decided that they were going to try to use them further. REDOX was the first solvent extraction predecessor to PUREX. So the material that was coming out, then, was a lot more concentrated as far as radionuclides. Well, they were in a hurry to build the S-X tanks; because REDOX was coming online, you need a place to put that stuff. So the earlier tanks were built with a slightly convex/concave, whichever way you look at it, bottom, so it was a bit rounded on the bottom. Well, S-X, they built them flat, because it was faster. I mean, trying to weld carbon steel and get that—okay. Well, then, lo and behold, here’s this really hot waste, sludge, in the bottom of the tank. And of course, the concrete has some residual moisture in it. It evaporated the residual moisture and the tanks buckled up like this. Franklin: And cracked, right? Anderson: Well, cracks formed. They buckled up as much as eight feet. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: Well, it’s a 75-foot-diameter tank. Franklin: Sure, yeah, yeah. Anderson: But, yeah. So that was another thing. Eventually, what they did was try to move as much supernatant from the tanks that had the—it was 108S-X and 107S-X, I think. Franklin: So had they been concave, would they have buckled? Anderson: Nah. Well, likely not. Because you’ve got a lot of weight from the aqueous and the sludge. So the moisture probably would have, under some pressure, worked its way out. But, you know. They were in a hurry. Franklin: Right, got to have somewhere to— Anderson: Put. It’s the Cold War. We’re thinking we’re going to be in a nuclear war with Russia any time soon, so— Franklin: It’s so interesting to me that now we’ve been in this cleanup mode for almost three decades. It’s the constant topic of conversation and planning for the future and worrying, and it seems like that’s the complete opposite of the first 40 or so years, when waste was always the after thought and the idea was, well, let’s just make more room so we can pack more of it down there. It’s always like we’ll get to this later, like, constantly tabled issue. Anderson: You just keep pushing it off, pushing it off, because we have our short-term priorities. Franklin: Right. I think it’s hard for people now to understand, how couldn’t they have been planning? Understanding, knowing the basic science of how long these radioisotopes would take to decay, but then also knowing the chemicals that were used in this process, you know. Anderson: Well, one of the things that was explained to me and it makes perfect sense is, there was no experience, no history. So what they did was followed standard industrial practice. If it’s no good anymore, you bury it. Again, without the experience, what they had to go on was what had been going on forever in industry. So just transfer that to the nuclear side. Franklin: No, it’s perfectly rational. In its own way. But I guess with hindsight, it’s like, wow. Anderson: Well, hindsight is always 20/20. Franklin: Right, it’s kind of a scary rational decision in some ways. Anderson: Oh, yeah. Franklin: So in ’85, right, you—no, sorry, before that. Anderson: ’75. Franklin: ’75 you went to work at— Anderson: PNL. Franklin: This kind of new—was vitrification a new—was this kind of an emerging idea then, or was it already established for nuclear waste? Anderson: It was emerging. This was some of the work that supported DWPF, Defense Waste Processing Facility, back at Savanna River. Which I became intimately involved with. It was—yeah. I spent a good part of my life working on waste vitrification design and startup. Franklin: So the idea, then, instead of removing moisture, putting in tanks, is to turn the waste into a solid and encapsulate it, correct? Anderson: Yeah. It’s a vitreous product, glass. And then, well, Savanna River’s using these two-foot diameter stainless steel, that eventually, the intent is that it goes to a repository. But some of the early work looked at, what’s the place over in Africa where they had the natural reactor? Franklin: Oh, I can’t—I know— Anderson: It’s Oklo, or something like that? Franklin: Something like that, yeah. Anderson: Anyhow, what they found is that there’s enough heat there that a lot of material was vitrified. Now you go back thousands and thousands—hundreds of thousands of years later, and it’s still there. It hasn’t migrated. So yeah, you put it in glass and it’s not going anywhere. So that was the earlier work in. What PNL was doing was chop-leech of commercially irradiated—from West Valley, as I recall. Franklin: And that’s in New York, right? Anderson: Yeah. We brought them here, disassembled them, chop-leeched the fuel elements, dissolved out the— Franklin: So, sorry, what was that word you just said, chop leech? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: What—can you— Anderson: Oh, okay. What you did is there’s—and I did the design for this. The fuel assemblies are fairly complicated, typically like a 12x12 array. But it varies depending on whether it’s a PWR, BWR, and those change at times. But developed techniques to take the head plate off so you can get at the fuel rods. And then you had a little clamping device comes out and pulls it into a hydraulic press. So you pull it like four inches through, you chop off two inches. You pull it another four inches through—so you get two two-inch pieces with each chop. Then it falls from there directly into a tank where you leech out or dissolve out the uranium and plutonium, whatever’s there. Then that’s going to be mixed with glass formers and turned into glass logs. Franklin: Okay. And this is done with the old, with the fuel rods? Anderson: Yes. Franklin: Okay. And so West Valley sent these rods to PNNL? Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: West Valley was shut down. And they didn’t quite know what to do with the spent assemblies that were already there. So we helped them get rid of a couple of them. Franklin: Right. Was West Valley, was that a commercial—those commercial power reactors? Anderson: Yeah, it was intended to be a commercialization of fuel reprocessing. There were two places in the Untied States where that was supposed to be. That was basically a prototype. I mean, it was going to be commercial, but—and then the Morris Plant, GE’s Morris Plant, which was in Illinois. Morris Plant never got beyond early testing. They got it contaminated, but not badly. West Valley actually had processed fuel. And the problem there was that the powers-that-be kept changing the rules. They built the plant to the rules that existed at the time they built it. And then the government changed the rules, and then they tried to update. And the government changes the rules again. And they finally just sort of threw up their hands, and—Bechtel, actually, was the company that built West Valley. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: So they had some pretty practical knowledge of what was in there. In fact, I worked with a guy, Jack Nelson, who was one of the chief engineers on that. And Jack is still alive, down in the San Francisco Bay area. He occasionally sends little humorous things with another friend of mine down there who shares them with me. Franklin: Oh, that’s cool. So how come PNNL or PNL then, I guess—it seems like there’d be a national lab much closer to West Valley to send those— Anderson: Well, it wasn’t initially to process West Valley. We needed fuel assemblies. And they started casting around for where we might get them. Commercial reactors weren’t necessarily—they still had the idea that they were going to be able to reuse them. So we’d get them for free, basically, I think the idea was we’d pay shipping. Franklin: I’d imagine still is no small feat for used fuel assemblies. Anderson: Yeah. Anyhow, yeah, that’s how we got— Franklin: So how come that—why was the decision made to start vitrification with this commercial or reprocessing fuel assemblies rather than something at Hanford, like some sort of waste from Hanford? Anderson: Well, first of all, the Hanford waste, a lot of it, was slugs. Okay, if you look at what was in B Reactor, C Reactor, the earlier reactors, they weren’t fuel assemblies. What they had is tubes that they loaded metallic slugs in, I think they were like two feet long. Anyhow, if you go out to—you know about BRMA, B Reactor Museum Association? Franklin: Yeah, I’m actually a member, a board member of BRMA. Anderson: Okay, well, I’m a member. I pay my dues, but— Franklin: Okay. Anderson: So you can see there what the fuel slugs look like. Franklin: Yeah, we have some of those in our collection. Anderson: Yeah. Cold ones, but— Franklin: Yes, yes. We do not have hot ones. Let me just say that on camera: we do not have actual— Anderson: Radioactive materials. Franklin: We have the testers and the displays. Anderson: So anyhow, those weren’t really conducive to—because we were looking for something to apply to commercial nuclear fuel. What existed at Hanford was—it wasn’t going to be typical. Franklin: So these fuel assemblies then, are maybe similar to the Fast Flux stuff where they were these longer rods, okay. Anderson: Well, what they were was, again, as I recall, don’t quote me on this, but, like, 20-feet long, and a 12x12 array. There were spacers and cooling tubes. It came as an assembly that would slip into a reactor. Franklin: Gotcha. Anderson: When they did their refueling. Franklin: Okay, okay, thanks. All my experience with reactors is with out here. So I kind of forget about the—I forget how different commercial is from—or reprocessing is from the Hanford stuff. Anderson: Yeah. And of course, the commercial fuel is burned up a lot higher. Franklin: Right. Anderson: Because—I’m probably telling you what you already know, but, really, you didn’t want to irradiate the fuel too far at Hanford, because your 239 starts becoming 241 and pretty soon you wind up with something that won’t go boom. Franklin: Right. But in commercial you want that long-sustained. Anderson: You want to burn it up as long as you can because you paid a lot for it. Franklin: Right, right. Yeah, I think that’s something maybe that a lot of people don’t understand is how different those processes are. You don’t make bomb material in a commercial reactor. It doesn’t—it’s the exact opposite. Anderson: No. Well, initially, if you take a fuel assembly that’s just been installed for a few months and you pull that out, you potentially could process it to get it up to Pu-239 to go boom. 239, 238? It’s 239, I’m pretty sure. Franklin: Close enough. Pu. Anderson: Close enough for government work. Franklin: So in ’75 you start working on this waste vitrification. What did your—what was the outcome of the project? Was it a success? What did you produce? Anderson: I actually left before they actually—I designed the stuff, watched the stuff get built, and then I went off job shopping and wound up back out at Hanford, working on low level waste for Hank McGuire. Franklin: Okay, and how come you left PNNL before the project got underway? Anderson: Okay, well, initially PNL was a great company to work for. Ev Irish was the guy that was in charge of the whole thing. There was an awful lot there that was totally novel, and he just said, figure it out. Yes, sir. I mean, that’s—so I, for instance, was back Midwest, checking on the press operators. Things like zirconium, which was fuel cladding. But it is pyrophoric, so you do some research and say, we’re going to be storing these casings. There had been reports of fires starting in zirconium. It’s fun stuff. You’d get a casing and you scrape it along concrete, and it sparks. Just—it can be fun! Franklin: Sure, sure. Anderson: Anyhow, and they had flex time. You had to be there core hours, which was 10:00 in the morning to 2:00 in the afternoon. So I’m doing things like getting there at 6:00 in the morning and leaving at 2:30. Get my eight in. And then I could get my boat out on the water, sailboat. You know, it was great. I was given a lot of free reign. Then they decided we’re going into pretty much production mode and they got this guy in from GE’s Morris Plant, who was pretty much the north end of worse going south. And he said to me, what hours are you working? And I said, 6:00 to 2:30. Well, you need to work the same hours as everyone else. Well, we have flex time. Well, we’re not going to have flex time. Okay. That’s just one of the—he was a butt. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: And I had pretty much got my design in place, and I thought, let’s do something else. Franklin: Sure. Anderson: I’m not a patient soul; I tend to be restless. Next challenge, thank you. Franklin: And, okay. So then you said you went and shopped. When was this, that you left? Anderson: Gee, I went back to work in, it was ’76. I was there for a little less than two years. So it would’ve been ’77, ’78, I went back out. Well, I’d signed up with Butler R. Day, and I thought maybe I’d go someplace interesting like Oak Ridge. But they wouldn’t tell you where, you know. It’s a nuclear thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You see my resume; I can do that. And they said, okay, here’s where you’re going. I don’t think they’d looked at where I was at. They said, you know, if you have to commute more than 50 miles, then you’d get mileage. It’s about 25 miles, I’m sorry, I don’t get no mileage. But you know I’d signed up and it was good money. I mean, in the day it was—no real bennies, but $15 an hour in 1978, considering the minimum wage was considerably less than that. So I did that for six months. Then because they couldn’t hire you away from Butler R. Day until at least six months. And then basically as soon as my six months were—here, sign here. Okay, sure. Yeah, I was apparently appreciated. Franklin: Oh, good. So what were you doing? You said after PNL you left and went back to Hanford. Anderson: Low level radioactive waste management. Franklin: Low level—and what is that, specifically? Break that down for me in layman’s terms. Anderson: Okay. There’s all sorts of sites where contaminated liquids and solids had been disposed of, just in the ground. Cribs, specific retention sites, just—you know. Things like where there was a canal from B Plant that went out to a cooling pond. And then they had the Cell A incident at B Plant which resulted in a large strontium release. And so now that canal is contaminated all the way out. So what they do is they put a lot of dirt on it and dig a new one and we move on. But now it’s a low level waste site. So as I recall there’s close to 400 of them. Franklin: At Hanford? Anderson: Well, no, at 200 East and West. Franklin: 400 of them at 200 East and West. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: And this is just a mix of like contaminated ground and— Anderson: Yeah, canal—liquids. Again, some stuff buried. It was a lot of liquids. Cribs and so forth. Cribs and spills. Franklin: Sure. And the cribs were just to—were these usually just like holding facilities? Anderson: No, no. Basically, it was to dispose of slightly contaminated aqueous water. And the idea was that the Hanford soil is a very good ion exchanger. And the water table’s like 200 feet down. So by the time that this waste gets to the water, it’s been cleaned up. Franklin: Like a natural filter. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: But then— Anderson: That leaves the ground contaminated. Franklin: Right, then the filter’s contaminated, yeah. Not the water, but you contaminate the soil. Anderson: Yeah, well, the idea was that nobody’s ever going to live there, so, you know, they’re not going to be punching wells down in 200-East 200-West Area. Franklin: Well, I would hope not. Anderson: Yeah. So you know, that was considered—and I think I mentioned the specific retention sites with the stuff that they weren’t sure if it could be held up by the soil column. They would pump enough liquid in to saturate the soil column without reaching the water table. Franklin: Interesting. Anderson: Of course, I have to tell you another little story from back in my early days in Tank Farm. There was a tank in C Farm, I want to say it’s 103-C, which was OWW, that’s organic wash waste receiver from PUREX. Because PUREX, part of their process used NPH, normal paraffin hydrocarbon. And they liked to reuse that because it was expensive, so they would aqueous wash it. And then the aqueous wash would go out to 103-C. Well, there was some small amount of organic entrained over time. And then they were going to send 103-C, pump its feed over to my ITS-2 unit. You don’t want organic in—it was going to be above the flashpoint. So if you accidentally got organic in there, you could have a real nasty incident. Franklin: What—such as? Anderson: Explosion. Franklin: Oh, okay. That’s pretty nasty. Anderson: Yeah, you’d get it up to the flashpoint, and then all it took was an ignition source. Franklin: Okay. Gotcha. Anderson: So they’d taken a sample of 103-C, sent it over to the lab, and then said, that sample was all NPH. What? Again, this is crude sampling; you drop a bottle down to the tank liquid, let it sink until it gets filled and pull it up. And then rinse it off, put it in a lead pig, and send it down to the lab. So they said, oh, okay, that’s not good. We don’t want to pump that stuff to a hot environment. So then I was given a task—this would’ve been 1970, ’71—of finding out how much organic there was in 103-C. And I was given a magnificent budget of $250,000. Which in today’s money you could probably put a couple zeroes after that. And they were talking about things like radar and sonar. So now I have a problem, what to do. I’m working graveyards and—what is the difference between the—let’s see, the aqueous phase has a specific gravity of about 1.12. The organic is like 0.8. So there’s a big difference in the density, specific gravity. How would you—huh, Mr. Archimedes, buoyancy, yeah. So I sketched up a little thing that would go through a 12-inch riser. Plywood disk, appropriately weighted with enough lead plate so that it would sink. And put an eyebolt through the whole thing. So I had it sketched up and went down in the bowels of B Plant, to the shops, and said, could you build something like that? Yeah, where’s your work order? It’s just a piece of plywood. Why do I—? Let me take a look at it. So about two hours later, I get a call: are you going to come pick this up or not? Yeah, I’ll be right there. [LAUGHTER] Well, then, I was too lazy to write a test plan. So I waited until the weekend and my shift supervisor, as I recall, was Dean Curtis, known fondly as Curly because he was bald. So I said this is what I want to do in C Farm. Can you get me a couple operatives to--? Oh, yeah, sure. So, we took the riser cover off, had a tape and a fish scale and lowered it down. You can see when—as soon as you hit the liquid, the weight decreases pretty dramatically. And you keep lowering it, slowly, against the side of the riser with the tape. And then it gets a lot lighter as it hits the aqueous phase. And I had them repeat it. I’m taking numbers down. I had them repeat it five, six times, just to make sure it was good to within half-an-inch. But we had like 11 inches of organic on top of the aqueous. Okay, and then, yeah, let’s clean up here. Of course, now, the tape is contaminated, the plywood disk and the lead are contaminated, and the operators are whining about, well, now we’re going to have to wash that down and bag it out. I get the fish scale out. Oop! I dropped it. Oh my goodness. Ha, ha, ha. So it’s in the tank. Okay. So we button it up, I go back and write out my report and turn it in. Pissed my lead off to no end, because I didn’t spend any of the $250,000. The point I’m making here is the tanks were generally seen as, if you got something that you needed to get rid of out in the Tank Farm, open up a riser and put it in. Franklin: Right, because it’s all just so messed up down there anyway. Anderson: Yeah, or, we’re never going to get that stuff out of there, so why—So there were cement blocks, you know—that I know of! Now, Lord knows what went in there that I don’t know of. Okay, but that’s an ancestral story that—you probably shouldn’t let someone like me work shiftwork. Franklin: That’s a great story. Thank you. And so how long did you work as a low level waste engineer? Anderson: Until June of 1980. So probably close to two years. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: Yeah, a lot of that was we had a subcontractor, Ford, Bacon & Davis down in Utah, Salt Lake City. So a lot of what I was doing was going back and forth. Because what they were supposed to be doing was writing this massive report. Franklin: On the low level waste? Anderson: Sites, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: Well, it turned out I probably wrote half of it myself, because they had been chosen on the buddy system I think. We had competitive bidding and they changed the rules in order for Ford, Bacon & Davis to get it. Franklin: I see. Anderson: Nice people, but the one really good guy, shortly after we got into this, they sent him off to Washington, DC. Paul something was his name. Good guy. But so anyhow, then we’d gotten that well underway. It was actually in DOE’s hands for approval. Meanwhile, I was separated from my wife. I’d gotten involved with a young lady who was attending Mills College down in Oakland, and then ran across an ad in Nuclear News from Bechtel looking for someone with vitrification experience. Which I had from PNL. The next thing you know, I’m headed for Bechtel in San Francisco. Franklin: Oh, wow, what a change. Anderson: Yeah, it was—I’d never lived in the big city before. Well, Rochester, New York, but it was on campus. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anderson: So now I’m taking public trans, you know. I was a serious runner at that point. And around here, a good part of the year you don’t have any races. Maybe you have one every month or so. In the Bay Area, there’s races every weekend. You could be really picky. I tended to pick the ones that had beer afterwards. Anyhow, that was—I had a very lovely time working for Bechtel, a great company. They took good care of me. When I first moved there, they’d given me a raise, a little bit less than 8%. But basically the guy I was directly reporting to, the chief, technically reporting to, had said, if Bechtel likes what you do, you’re not going to be able to change jobs to your financial advantage. Okay. So when they hired me, I said, okay, I remember that. About six months later, I got a 19% raise. So yeah. Franklin: That’s pretty good. Anderson: Yes, it’s a vote of confidence. It’s like, yeah, I like this. Franklin: That’s great. So you were doing vitrification work down there. Anderson: Yeah, doing the initial design work for Defense Waste Processing Facility. Franklin: At Savanna River. Anderson: At Savanna River, yeah. Franklin: So then you—but left San Francisco after a while and you came back to Richland? Anderson: I was—well, yeah. It was about five years there. We pretty much wrapped up—I wouldn’t say wrapped up, because we never wrapped up. But had the bulk of the design done, and they were going to shift things back to Savanna River. And being a process engineer, my engineering work tends to be at the front-end. Piping in instrument documents and things like that. Once I got those out the door, then you’re talking to your civil structural whatever people. So the job in San Francisco was winding down. That was in the mid-‘80s. We were in a bit of an economic slump. There wasn’t a lot of work in the Bay Area. DuPont said they wanted me to work for them back in Savanna River, because apparently they liked me, too. So then I filled out an application there. My old boss up here, Hank McGuire, I’d put down as a reference. And he said, if you’re looking for a job, why wouldn’t you look here? Okay, I didn’t know that—Oh, yeah! So then, the wife was going to start an advertising agency. She’s from the Tri-Cities. Wife, at that point. And said, it’d be a lot easier to start an ad agency where you know the territory, rather than going to the east coast where—so I took the job here at Hanford. So, yeah, that was lots of fun. Franklin: And what did you do this time around? Anderson: Oh, my goodness, what did we do? Well, it was more back on the low level waste stuff again. Trying to— Franklin: It says here in my notes that Jillian wrote down that you came to work on the Vitrification Plant before going to Savanna River to work on— Anderson: Oh, okay, yeah, that’s what. Yeah, the earlier—thank you for reminding me, because I’m going—At that point, it was called HWVP, Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant. Or, as the Indian manager called it, H-W-Wee-P. Had trouble with those Vs. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Anderson: He was a perfect example of—spoke good English, but idiomatic English? That’s difficult. So we who worked for him kept a little quotable quotes. Things like “a whole new ball of games.” And “out in the boondoggles.” Some of them were quite descriptive, I thought. Franklin: Yeah, that seems to be. Anderson: But he just was not doing very good with idiomatic English and he shouldn’t have been trying! Anyhow, that’s—yeah, HWVP. Franklin: And what is HWVP? Anderson: Well, that was just a precursor to vitrifying Hanford waste. That was a limited scope. They were not—the current one, Vit Plant, is supposed to basically address all the tank waste. HWVP was focused on high level waste. Franklin: And where was high level waste—what defines high level waste? Anderson: Boiling waste tanks. Franklin: Boiling waste tanks. Anderson: Yeah. But it was, again, very poorly managed. It was supposed to be just a duplicate of DWPF. Well, DWPF nominally was built for $620 million. They were still pouring concrete on startup money. So the actual cost was closer to a billion. Now, we’re going to build HWVP for $620 million just using the same drawings, which—it was so incredibly stupid. First of all, source term for Savanna River for exposure was for continuous exposure was 0.5 mR per hour. For intermittent was 5. Okay. For Hanford, it was .2 and 2. Different criteria. On top of that, the Hanford source term is roughly twice as radioactive as DWPF. So now that your shielding, it’s just not going to work. So you’re going to have to redesign all your shielding, which means you’re going to have to redesign all your m beds, which means—and that’s just one fallacy. Franklin: Sure. How come the radiation standards were so different between the two facilities? Anderson: Part of it is that, of course, DWPF was meant to support hydrogen bomb. So the stuff just wasn’t burned up as far and the waste wasn’t as hot. Where, Hanford, boiling waste tanks were screaming hot. PUREX was a very good process at minimizing the amount of aqueous waste you’re producing. Franklin: So it’s all concentrated. Anderson: Yeah, and screaming hot. Franklin: And screaming hot. Because you’ve concentrated all those isotopes once you’ve removed the water that the aqueous— Anderson: Yeah. Well, some of it. Franklin: Some of it, right. Anderson: So, yeah, the boiling waste tanks were self-concentrating. Franklin: Because the heat keeps evaporating— Anderson: Liquid. It boils, and you have to deal with—so you’ve got condensers on the off-gas. And of course the HEPA filters. But yeah, source term—well, and the source terms were very conservative. They looked at the worst stuff we had in the boiling waste tank and said you’ve got to design to that. And of course, we engineers said, well, why wouldn’t you mix that with—we don’t know that that can be done or will be done. You have to design to the highest possible. Right, okay. Franklin: And so, given these challenges, what happened with the Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant? Did it get built? Anderson: Oh, no, no, no. Nothing ever—it just kept getting screwier and screwier. So eventually I wound up back at Savanna River. Took a temporary assignment there with Bechtel. Well, story here. I’m working happily—well, working and getting paid happily, okay—here at Hanford. Westinghouse was the contractor at that point. So they put a notice up on the board that Westinghouse had gotten the new contract at Savanna River. Of course, Bechtel was a subcontractor to it in the announcement. So there was a good friend of mine with Bechtel in San Francisco, Vick [unknown]. So I picked up the phone to call Vick and congratulate him. No answer. I just hung up the phone like this, and it rings. Picked it up, and it’s Vick calling from Savanna River. Well, they’re going to have to be staffing up because DuPont’s engineers are leaving, Westinghouse is not taking over that part, so Bechtel is supposed to pick that up. And do I know anybody who might be interested in--? At that point, I was rather frustrated with HWVP. And I said, talk to me. So they did and I went back there on a temporary assignment. While there got divorced from the second wife. So then, okay, roll over to a permanent position there at Savanna River. I went back there as EGS, engineering group supervisor. So I had as many as, what, 38 FTEs reporting to me. FTE is full-time equivalents. Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: Okay. Franklin: Been here not that long, but long enough to have picked up some of the acronyms. Anderson: Okay. So then I was at that for a couple years, then they moved me up to task manager, which is multi-discipline. Then I ran the project thing, late wash project design, conceptual design report. Which typically was going to take two years for novel technology. They said you’ve got six months. We got it done! And then I was manager of design completion engineering—I forget what, the title is about this long. No more money, but the title was about—[LAUGHTER] So, yeah, that was—and then, again, that job’s winding down, and— Franklin: As the plant was being built? Anderson: Yeah. So they say, oh, don’t worry about it, you’ll be the one turning out the lights. No. I don’t see myself as the electrician turning out the lights. So then I transferred with Bechtel to southern California. They supposedly had a couple things they were going to—because I’m now a professional engineer in the State of California. There isn’t that many professional chemical engineers. It’s a rather rigorous exam to do that. Like, all day. Franklin: Wow. Anderson: Two four-hour sessions. Pass rate the year I took it was 27%. Okay. So they thought I would be valuable. Well, they were going to have me on a clean air project with ARCO. And ARCO delayed that part of it. Then they had another one that, oh, yeah, we got this one in the bag. They didn’t get it. So now I’m looking at another—I’m scrambling to find a couple hours a day worthwhile. There was another friend of mine, a honcho with MACTEC, and got hold of him and said, how are things looking? He said, want to come to work for us? Potentially. So I wound up here with MACTEC. That was in ’93. Franklin: What did MACTEC do? Anderson: They were supposed to be in-house consultants to DOE. Franklin: For? Anderson: The entire Site. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: What eventually it turned into was staff augmentation for DOE. Which wasn’t supposed to be the way it was done, but DOE needed people, and the funding process was not giving them what they needed to hire to directly. So they used MACTEC. So, yeah, worked that for a couple years. Franklin: And what did you do there? Anderson: Basically, anything I was told to do. But a lot of document reviews of things produced by the contractor. Franklin: Okay. Anderson: I did, well, at one time or another—another little corporate story here—I was on a team that was reviewing the safety analysis for a new tank farm. They made a flat-out statement that they’d covered all the safety aspects. And I said, bullshit? You don’t ever use absolutes like that. Because there’s always going to be something you didn’t think of. Oh, no, they thought of everything. I said, well, let me tell you something you probably haven’t thought of. You allow pickup trucks to drive out in the Tank Farm, right? Yeah. You have risers down to the tank, the tank’s under a slight vacuum. So there’s air leakage in through the riser that keeps the contamination from spreading. Yeah. I said, trucks—vehicles have been known to develop gasoline leaks. So now you have a pickup out in the Tank Farm, parked over a riser, leaking gasoline, fumes are being drawn into the tank. How long does it take before you have a flammable mixture in the tank? Oh. [LAUGHTER] I said, now—I said, you can do the—talk to maintenance. How often do they have to fix leaky fuel systems? You know, you can come up with some odds on this. Well, then, my part of the thing was done on our review. And I had scolded him for, don’t ever tell me you have covered all the safety things. Okay. Well, they never built the tank farm. They decided they were going to be able to get by with space recovery programs, whatever. And it was a couple years later that I was telling that story to a group of, well, actually I think the AICHE meeting. And this one lady said, you! What? Well, it turned out that they had taken my scenario very seriously and banned trucks from driving out in Tank Farms. So that makes things definitely—well, you need a special permit. Used to be you could just drive in areas that weren’t contaminated. Then you had to have a special permit and fill out all sorts of paperwork to get a truck out in the Tank Farm. She thought I was the cause for all that extra work. [LAUGHTER] Anderson: So anyhow. Franklin: Oh, that’s awesome. So you were kind of like a consultant for Tank Farm? Anderson: Mainly, it was Tank Farms, yeah, but it was whatever was going on that—documents produced by the contractor or oversight of problem/solutions. You know, report back to DOE, how is this going. Franklin: Sure. And then it says here that then you went back to the Vit Plant. Anderson: Yeah, well again, that was—a bit of a segue way. I got a call from San Francisco and said that they—Westinghouse had an RFP out, request-for-proposal for close to a billion dollars in Tank Farm upgrades over ten years. They wanted me to be like a one-man office here to spearhead that as things got underway. And they bumped me up to a Grade 28, you know. Okay, sure, why not? I mean, it wasn’t that I didn’t like working for MACTEC, but this seemed like a great opportunity. So, yeah, I took over and had a little office downtown. Franklin: In San Francisco? Anderson: No, downtown Richland. Franklin: Oh, Richland. Anderson: Yeah. Right there in the Parkway. So then Westinghouse started fudging, and they finally took the RFP off the table and said they’d do it in-house. So now I’m up here. And so they said—and, BNFL had the vitrification contract at that time. Bechtel was seconded to. So they said, you can either roll over to the Vit Plant or you can come back to San Francisco. And I said San Francisco, been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I think I’m good. So I went to work on the Hanford Waste Vitrification. Franklin: And what year was that? Anderson: Phew. Let’s see. Back up here. That would’ve been ’96, ’97. Franklin: Okay, and where was the Vit Plant at, at that time? Anderson: Early design phases. Franklin: Early design phase. Anderson: Yeah. Franklin: And how long did you stay with the Vit Plant? Anderson: Oh, gee. Basically until I retired. Of course, initially it was BNFL. Got a nice trip over to Sellafield in the UK. And I do love British beer. And the lake country, where Sellafield is, is pretty country, just--. And got to see what they were doing for vitrification. And I’m going, okay, I see a lot of mistakes here, but, well, we learn from our mistakes. Okay. Well, eventually DOE got disgusted with BNFL because the cost kept going up. It’s still going on today. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah. Anderson: Costs keep going up. Anyhow, so they basically fired BNFL. So then I went to work for, basically a job shopper here for like six months. Stayed on the job, but not with Bechtel. What was the name of that? Can’t think of the name. It was a big period of time while they rebid contract. And of course Bechtel won, and I’m back working for Bechtel. And so, yeah. Franklin: So how far did the Vit Plant get from when you started to when you retired? Anderson: Well, they’d broken ground. I really don’t recall. I mean, I know that they were working on it, but a lot of it was the structural stuff. Which, from a process point-of-view, I wasn’t involved in. I was still just doing a lot of design, or helping with design for the process part of it. Franklin: What are your views on the current situation of the Vitrification Plant? Anderson: Overdesigned. They’re trying to make it do everything. And they keep changing the rules. And then they’re surprised when the cost goes up. As a friend of mine said, generally, there comes a time in every project when you have to take the engineers out and shoot them, and just build it. And they never got to that stage yet. Franklin: Ah, I see. Makes sense. Anderson: Well, it’s the administrators that need to be taken, anyhow. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So last question, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War and afterwards? Anderson: Oh, gee. Well, it’s very great community. I mean, because overall wages are high, overall education level is high. Schools are good. It’s just a great place to raise a family. In fact, a lot of people stayed here, unhappy with the job, but because it was good for their family, they said, okay, I’m getting a paycheck, it’s good for my family, I’ll hack it. So, yeah, that was—it was just a great place to raise a family. And both my kids are still here. Yeah, my son’s a Kennewick firefighter, and my daughter works for the state, basically overseeing the payments to the people on welfare, basically. Franklin: Oh, okay. Anderson: So, anyhow, yeah. And two grandkids here. One of which—well, I have to brag a little bit. This is off the subject, but my son had been coaching soccer since his daughter was like six or seven years old. Club soccer. So last summer—and she’s now going to be a sophomore—the AD out there County of Benton said we’d like you to be the girls’ soccer coach. He said, okay. Oh, by the way it pays $4,500. He said, if they hadn’t told me that, I’d probably do it for free. Anyhow, so, the year before that, the soccer team won three games. This past fall, the girls were undefeated in the league. Took the SCAC championship, but lost their first game at state. I think they were sort of burned by that time. Anyway, my son then got coach of the year for the league, and my granddaughter was selected as MVP for the league. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. Anderson: So, yeah, great place to live. Franklin: So, Ted, is there anything we haven’t touched on that you’d like to talk about today? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: All right, then I think that’s a great place to end, thank you. Anderson: I mean, this could go on for a long time, but— Franklin: Sure, sure. Anderson: But I think you’ve got highlights and— Franklin: Yeah, we’ve got some really great stuff here. Thank you for really illuminating the waste processing history at Hanford. I appreciate it. Anderson: Yeah. Well, and the successive companies, like ARCO, basically, the guy they had leading it here had not been doing well in their primary business, which was petroleum. But now they won a contract here and got a place to stick him. So he didn’t provide strong leadership. That was sort of a—you know, they win the contract and here’s a place to park people. Oh, well. Franklin: Oh, well. Thank you so much, Ted, I really appreciate it. Anderson: My pleasure. <a href="https://youtu.be/LSqz5MdJ4VI">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Tank Farms BC Crib Area 222-S Labs S-X Farm REDOX 200 East 200 West Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1969- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ted Anderson Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Chemical engineering Radioactive wastes Radioactive waste disposal Description An account of the resource Ted Anderson moved to Richland, Washington in 1969 to work on the Hanford Site as a Chemical Engineer. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/11/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbdb57e3dde017cbadd86868b92a0470b.jpg 9237d328797326bdef996fbdcd9744a0 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F53e87e2e7c39cdc09f0dd01015dde2d3.mp4 20b1d5b96c767eca2a539e427c62a42f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ted Poston Description An account of the resource An interview with Ted Poston conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F781469886630729124ac5781a546de58.JPG 854d8de5ddc7267beebe47d28e3198b4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F97fd5a680e8f00e8b3814534fa754ff5.mp4 c2d0e6cf1d069b855fd2afebd9767149 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O’Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Teena Giulio Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Douglas O’Reagan: Would you please spell and pronounce your name for us? Teena Giulio: My name is Teena Giulio. First name is T-E-E-N-A. Last name is G-I-U-L-I-O. O’Reagan: Great, thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview on May 4th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be speaking with Miss Giulio about her experiences working at the Hanford site and living in the Tri-Cities throughout the 20th Century. Okay. Thanks for being here. Giulio: Thanks for having me. O’Reagan: So I understand you were actually born in the Tri-Cities. Giulio: Yes, I was. I was born in the Tri-Cities in 1961. Moved away when I was, oh, four or five, and then moved back when I was 13. I’ve been here pretty much ever since, for the most part. O’Reagan: Where did you move away to? Giulio: Denver. O’Reagan: Hm. Was that—were you too young to sort of notice differences? Did you notice differences when you came back? Giulio: Oh, I noticed differences. I didn’t like it. We lived for probably three or four years up in the Seattle area. I identify that with home because of all the trees and the green and the smells and all of that. Denver just didn’t have that. Nostalgically, I like the spring here, because when it rains you get the smell of the sage and the dirt and the Russian olive trees—not that I like it, but it’s just that nostalgic smell. O’Reagan: Where within the Tri-Cities did you live when you moved back? Giulio: In Richland. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Giulio: In Richland. When I was very little, we lived in Richland, moved to Kennewick, moved to Finley. [LAUGHTER] And then moved away. O’Reagan: So you came back in, I guess, middle school? Is that right? Giulio: Just began seventh grade, yes. O’Reagan: What was it like in Richland’s middle schools? Giulio: [SIGH] Well, everybody else had pretty much had grown up together, so I felt like I didn’t belong. I felt very out of place. [LAUGHTER] I really don’t know what to tell you, other—it was very clique-ish back then. I don’t know if it is still now, but yeah, it was very clique-ish. I just didn’t feel like I was part of any of that. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Did that change by high school? Giulio: Yes. Yes, of course I had made friends and continued those friendships on even until today, which is nice. It’s kind of a shared thing, so yeah. O’Reagan: Right. Let’s see. So I understand your family were long-time Hanford workers. Giulio: Yes. Both grandfathers worked out at Hanford. My father and his brother worked out at Hanford. My uncle’s sons and daughter worked out there, and then I worked out there also. O’Reagan: What did your grandparents do? Giulio: I’m not sure what my paternal grandfather did. But my maternal grandfather—I think he worked out at the 200 Areas. I guess it was like there was a coal bin or coal cars or something like that. He worked in that. O’Reagan: Do you know what time period that would be? Giulio: In the ‘50s and ‘60s. O’Reagan: Okay. And How about your parents? What did your parents do? Giulio: Let me see. Well, let me go back to my grandparents. O’Reagan: Sure, yeah. Giulio: They came out in the late ‘40s, I believe—late ‘40s, early ‘50s—to take part in all of the building and expansion and all of that. My parents—my father worked in several different areas, and—can I get my paperwork? [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Yeah, sure. Giulio: Let me see. Where did he work? Let me see. He started working out there as a delivery person, delivering top secret documents and other materials as needed to the 100 Area. Let me see. Transferred to operating engineer, and his first job was unloading the coal cars for approximately three years, which—that’s what my grandfather did, too, was the coal cars. He also built bunkers in the coal rooms, worked in the boiler house, water filtering, pump houses. [LAUGHTER] Let me see. Yeah, and that—I think, I believe, that’s where—shift work—so yeah. He kind of got around to all the different areas, but it was mainly in the 200 East and West Areas. O’Reagan: Okay. So sort of a technician-laborer-type role? Giulio: Mm-hmm. And he went back—it’s like he left and got hired back or got laid off and got hired back. Because there were several times in my paperwork here that I’ve noticed he worked for different contractors at different times. I think that was fairly common back then, too. O’Reagan: Did you have a good impression of what your father was doing growing up? Giulio: No. No. He was always very—I don’t want to say secretive—he just didn’t talk about it a whole lot. I did wonder why he didn’t shower at home. [LAUGHTER] As I got older, I realized that he showered at work after work, before he came home. When he got transferred to Rocky Flats, that was the same thing. They got cleaned before they came home so you didn’t bring coal dust or any type of radioactivity type of contamination home. O’Reagan: Do you remember or how you started to get an idea of what was going on at Hanford in general? Giulio: No, not really, other than stories from my grandmother. I spent a lot of time with my grandmother after my grandfather passed. I spent the weekends with her, and we would talk a lot about a lot of different things. She would tell me the stories that she remembered. When they moved out here, and he first started working out there, she told me that she would pack his lunch for the day and he would walk off to the corner where everybody would meet. They—at that time, they had bus systems, and all over the city of Richland, the buses would pick up the workers. She said that all the windows were blacked out except for a small area for the driver. So nobody knew where they were going; they just got on the bus, took a long ride out, got off, and did what they were supposed to do. They all had very specific jobs. And then they cleaned up, got back on the buses with the blacked out windows, took a long ride home, and got off on the corner again. So that was my indoctrination of how secretive it was, way, way back. And she said that nobody knew what they were doing. They all had very specific jobs. They didn’t know what they were doing, they didn’t know what it was part of. Oh, she also said that they moved—they occasionally did different jobs. Like they would stay at one position for a while and then they would take them to a different area to do another job. So they—nobody could really put together, mentally, what was going on, until after—you know, everything kind of broke loose and came out as to what was going on. Probably—I’m not sure if they were here when they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. I want to say that they were. I’m trying to recall the stories that she’s told me. I want to say that they were here, because after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, she said that all the news stories came out that it was the plutonium from Hanford that was in the bombs that were dropped. Then everybody realized how important what they were doing was. So they must have been here in the ‘40s and worked throughout the ‘50s. O’Reagan: Was your mother a homemaker? Giulio: My mother worked—my mother worked as—it would be considered a paralegal now. She worked in one of the law offices here in town. So, no, she didn’t work out at Hanford. O’Reagan: Okay, great. Let’s see. So after high school, what was your next step? Giulio: [LAUGHTER] I really wanted to get a job out there. So I took several low-paying, not-very-prestigious jobs, until I could get my foot in the door out there. My father wasn’t working there at the time, and nepotism was pretty rampant. [LAUGHTER] I finally got a call that somebody wanted to interview me, and I started out there in 1981. It was actually exactly one year after Mt. St. Helens blew. So maybe that was ’82. I don’t remember. Anyway, it was exactly one year after Mt. St. Helens blew, I started working out there. I worked out at 100-N as the mail carrier. I got delivered twice a day, the mail from 200 East Area, which was like their main process station, I guess you’d call it. And I would sort the mail and deliver it to the various people out there at 100-N. So you could say I got around. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Why was it you wanted to work out there? Giulio: The money. The money, the security, the benefits. And it was kind of like that’s where you were supposed to want to work at that time. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Hm. What were some of the sort of low-paying jobs you worked first? Giulio: I worked in a furniture rental store. [LAUGHTER] And I worked in a funeral home—actually right out of high school, I worked in a funeral home, at Enon’s for a while. And then there was one in Kennewick that I worked at, but they were—it was kind of interconnected; they did work for each other. But I worked the front offices and typed contracts and did—it wasn’t really glamorous. O’Reagan: Sure. Giulio: But I liked it. Good people. O’Reagan: How long were you working with the mail out at Hanford? Giulio: I want to say close to a year. And then, at that time, after six months, you were eligible to transfer and apply for other jobs onsite. So I saw an opening in the—what do they call it—the site paper, or whatever it was. Saw a job opening for a metal operator and I read the description, and I thought, oh man, this sounds like a lot of fun. And what it turned out to be—I did get the job—what it turned out to be was various positions on an assembly line production of fuels for N Reactor. And, yes, it was; it was very interesting. And I really liked what I did. O’Reagan: Could you describe sort of what you were doing in as much detail as you’re comfortable with? Giulio: Sure. You know, I’m not sure if it’s classified or not. I would imagine at this time it may be not—may be unclassified. The fuel rods for N Reactor were—I want to say about this long. The outer tube was about that big around. And then there was a smaller tube about that big around that slipped inside there. So how those were produced were the uranium core billets—that’s what they were called—and they were extremely heavy, very, very heavy. They came in billets that I believe were about that tall and about that big around. They were put through an extrusion press. They had to have cranes and little carts and stuff to wheel them around with. I didn’t take part in that particular job. It was a very dirty job. [LAUGHTER] Very hot. I don’t remember the foot-pounds of pressure that it was pushed through, but it was pushed through the extrusion press and came out in a very long tube. Like probably as long as this room, if not longer. I believe—well, of course they had different sizes. They had the larger size and the smaller size that they produced. And then they were cut into the lengths that we needed. I didn’t take part in that. [LAUGHTER] Let me see. I’m trying to remember the exact order. And then they were run through a salt bath. Two different type—no, not two different types. There was just one type of salt, but two different temperatures. They were hung from a rack that kind of—it would look like a carousel, and these huge, huge salt baths. It was molten salt, is what it was. I did do this for a while. You loaded the rods onto the rack and this carousel would lift it way up and take it over and slowly dunk it into the first molten salt bath, which—I don’t remember the temperature, but it was extremely high. That was a fairly dangerous job, because you had to make sure that no water got in there. So you had to make—you had to blow the rods off, make sure there was no water, because it was reported to explode if you got water in the molten salt. So it went through that first salt bath, it raised up, and went to another salt bath which was cooler. Then I want to say water after that, different temperatures of water, and the thing came off. At that point, it went to I want to say an acid etch. Because the billets, when they were pushed through the extrusion press were coated with graphite, and this helped it go through the press, obviously. So you had to wash off the graphite. Yeah, you washed off the graphite and etched it and they came out in this very shiny—it looked like aluminum, but it was really pretty. And then we would—yeah, they would take a—[LAUGHTER] I’m trying to remember this! I don’t remember exactly how it was done, but the ends, they had to etch out the ends, because they were to the end with the uranium. So they’d etch it out, probably about that much. Then it would go through what we called brazing. In the braze room, you put the fuel rods upright, heated it up, and put beryllium rings in the end. No—put the beryllium rings in before it gets hot. Man Off-camera: [INAUDIBLE] Giulio: [LAUGHTER] Sorry my story’s so boring. [LAUGHTER] That’s funny. [LAUGHTER] I like it! [LAUGHTER] So, anyway. You put the beryllium ring at the end, heat it up, and the beryllium ring would melt and meld with the outer core. And I don’t remember what the outer core—not the outer core, but the outer cladding was. I’m sure it wasn’t aluminum, but it would melt. And then another part would be—something—how did they do that? Don’t remember. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I did—wow. I just really don’t remember the whole process. But it’s–yeah, there’s a huge, long process. At one point, we would weld the ends shut. And I want to say that was after they brazed it, because the brazing would melt the cap, and then it would get cut somehow. I don’t think I did this. O’Reagan: It sounds like a lot of different sort of technical skills. Giulio: A lot, yeah, a lot of manual skills. But a lot of it was done by machinery, too. And the photograph that I have is for the—it was called the TIG welder. This is one of the larger fuel rods, and you’d put like a rubber thing in there and twist it tight so that the argon would not get out. This was what we called the Chuck, and it swiveled on this little thing, and you would insert this end into the Chuck and it would go around and around and around. On the other end, there were tungsten, little—I don’t know what they’re called—that would heat up inside the chuck here and weld this part shut. Apparently, I was one of the best ones they had. [LAUGHTER] At least, that’s what they told me; I don’t know if it was true or not. O’Reagan: Was the picture taken by a coworker? Giulio: No, there was a photographer that came through at a certain time. I don’t even remember why. But this particular picture was in the Federal Building for the longest time. When it finally came down, they gave it to me. And this right here where it says, “I love you, Teena, 1981,” that—I sent that to my father. And then when he passed, of course I got it back. But he kept it for a long time. But yes, this particular picture was in the Federal Building on a wall, on an easel, I’m not sure, but I want to say it was probably close to 15 years. [LAUGHTER] So, yes, the welding part was part of the process, and then there was another process where it was etched out so that there was a little ch-ch-ch-ch on each side. Then it would get stamped with the specific number. I did do the stamping. It was all done with a little hammer. You’d just kind of put in the numbers and go whack! Stamp the numbers in. O’Reagan: Was this all learning by doing, or was there a formalized training process? Giulio: No, it was all on-the-job training. And yes, I did, I liked all of it. Oh! I remember now. Yeah, because right next to the station, on the other side, was where it was—the part was etched out. Yeah, I did that, too. It was done with lubricated water. Then there was also a quality control type of thing where it was all done underwater with—was it radar? Some kind of a sensor, the fuel rod would turn around and around and around, and this little sensor would go along the fuel rod to see if there was any gaps between the cladding and the uranium. Because when you got heated in the reactor, if there was any gaps, it would explode. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Giulio: So there was lots of quality control measures that were done also. We had an autoclave where they would test the fuel rods, where they would heat the fuel rods up in this autoclave to the temperatures that would be heated in the reactor. That would be the better place for it to blow. [LAUGHTER] But they always had—they always checked the welds, they checked the cladding, they checked the uranium, all of that along the whole process. And I did almost all of that. O’Reagan: What was the timeframe for this? Giulio: Early ‘80s. O’Reagan: Okay. Giulio: Early ‘80s. And this says 1981, so I believe I started out there May 18th, 1981, and I worked out there for four or five years. I don’t remember. I took a leave of absence and then came back as a security escort. [LAUGHTER] Which—I liked that, too. O’Reagan: By the early ‘80s, was it unusual being a female technician out there? Giulio: Yes. O’Reagan: What was that like? Giulio: Yes. It was—it really wasn’t too much different for me, because I had always had male friends—close friends. I got along with most of the guys, except for some of the older guys. They didn’t take too well to women being out there doing their job. There was a little bit of harassment. But it was very subtle. Let me see. I want to say there was--one, two, three, four, five--six women in the whole building, doing this very large job, and I was one of them. So it was definitely one of those first steps for women into this man-dominated career. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. How many people would be working at a time roughly? Giulio: Almost all of us. O’Reagan: Right, but what sort of scale of workforce at the time, would you estimate? Giulio: In my particular area? O’Reagan: Sure. Giulio: Probably 50 to 60. O’Reagan: Okay, interesting. Let’s see. Can you describe some of your coworkers for us? Giulio: [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: In just sort of broad terms. Giulio: Well, we had the older guys who had been out there since the beginning of time. Most of them were pretty nice. There were a couple characters. One I had kind of a soft spot for, only because he was kind of a codger. His name was Ralph. He worked in the sandblast area. He was kind of hunched-over, not a real happy guy. But he was really, really nice. During break time he would put his safety goggles up on top of his hard hat and he’d take off for his break. Then he’d come back, has anybody seen my goggles? Where are my safety glasses at? [LAUGHTER] And the whole time they’re on top of his head. And somebody would say, Ralph, check your helmet. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know why he appealed to me. Probably because he was so unique and I’m attracted to very unique people. [LAUGHTER] Then of course, we had the age 30 to 40 men. That was kind of like they had started out there, maybe five to ten years before I had. Then of course, the younger generation, which I would have been. O’Reagan: Let’s see. Did a lot of people come in and out of those roles, or was it a pretty steady set of people? Giulio: It was pretty steady set of people. Occasionally we would get new people, but mostly it was pretty steady. When somebody met retirement age, of course, we just kind of moved into different roles, or they would hire somebody new. O’Reagan: So you were gone before the end of N Reactor? Giulio: Yes. Yes. I remember just after I—well, actually thinking, as I was doing the security escort job, thinking I should probably find something offsite, because I don’t think this is going to last much longer. [LAUGHTER] So that’s where that ended. O’Reagan: Do you have the impression that was sort of a common feeling at the time? Giulio: I didn’t at the time have that feeling, but I do now. I do now think that it’s just—okay, it’s one thing after another. You’ve got one site that closes, well, another one’s still open, you’re going to go do something there. Or it’s a new job in another area that’s taken up. Especially with the cleanup effort that’s going on out there now. It’s not the—is it privatization? Is that what they’re calling it? I don’t remember. But, yeah, it’s becoming non-government work anymore. Yeah, and I remember thinking that it was probably a good idea for me to get off site. O’Reagan: How much emphasis was there on transparency in the safety risks of what you were working on? Giulio: Can you repeat that? O’Reagan: So, how much were you sort of made aware of any health risks—or how much emphasis was there on safety while you were working out there? Giulio: I want to say there was not as much emphasis on safety as there is these days. I know today it’s almost fanatical. I mean, it’s like everything from paper cuts are analyzed. But there was a very strong safety culture, only because we were working with heavy machinery, heavy material, sharp objects, hot objects, the potential for cuts and smashes and all kinds of things were very prevalent. They wanted you to be aware of what was possible. But, as I said, I don’t believe it was as prevalent as it is now. O’Reagan: Mm-hmm, sure. So do you have any kind of specialized nuclear training for working with those materials, or just sort of general warnings? Giulio: Actually, I was going to say no, I didn’t have any training, but I did. There were several training classes that we were required to go through on a yearly basis. What they call Rad Worker, which was radiation worker training, general safety training, and—I’m trying to remember what else. So, yes. Yes, I was trained. O’Reagan: Sure. Can you tell us about the security escort job? Giulio: [LAUGHTER] The security escort job. I actually liked that. It did get very boring at times, because we weren’t allowed to—there was no cell phones, for one thing. We weren’t allowed to read or play cards or do anything like that. I came back at that time because I had had a Q clearance, which was one of the highest clearances you could have at the time, which I got during the mail carrier job because I was handling classified information at that time. I escorted—it was mostly construction-type workers, trade workers, into buildings and areas where they needed to go to do their job. I stayed with them until they did their job. Sometimes it was really boring. [LAUGHTER] But I met a lot of great people. That was probably what I liked most about all of my jobs, is that I met a lot of great people. I liked everything that I did from mail carrier, metal operator, and the security escort. Security escort was lots of fun, because I got to go lots of different places onsite. It was 200 East, 200 West with the well drillers, with the construction people, in the 105 Building, out at 100-N, which is where I met my husband. [LAUGHTER] I was in—no, I wasn’t in the 300 Area. It was mostly at the 100 Areas and 200 Areas, and sometimes out in the deserts with the well drillers and geologists. O’Reagan: How was it you met your husband? Giulio: [LAUGHTER] Through a mutual friend, actually. The friend had been trying to get me to go out with him. But I told him it was—I like you only as a friend. So it was the 109 Building, actually. I went in there with the construction workers and this friend, Kurt, yelled down from the top of the stairs, Hey, Stoner! What are you doing? [LAUGHTER] Stoner’s my maiden name. So I went upstairs to speak with him for a couple minutes, and my husband was sitting at a desk. So Kurt and I talked back and forth a little bit and I looked over at my—well he wasn’t my husband then—at Monty, and there was just something that kind of clicked. I was like, man, I’d like to know who that is. I thought his name tag—they were patrolmen—I thought his name tag said Guido. [LAUGHTER] Come to find out, it wasn’t Guido. That’s just what they called him. So I went back downstairs with my construction workers and did my job and went home. As I walked in the door that night, the phone was ringing and it was Monty. He had looked up my name and was calling me to see if I would go out with him, and I did. O’Reagan: Was, even in general, sort of social scene built around the Hanford workers, or was it just sort of a Tri-Cities scene and that happened to be—I guess I’m trying to get a sense of what was the social scene like for relatively young people in that era. Giulio: [LAUGHTER] A lot of going out on Friday nights. [LAUGHTER] That kind of seemed to be the thing to do, is on Friday nights, everybody would meet at some place, usually in Richland, for a couple drinks and if anything took place afterwards, go to somebody’s house, and have some more drinks and maybe watch TV. Yeah. O’Reagan: Did you have any hobbies? Giulio: I liked to ride my bike. At the time I didn’t do much hiking, but I like to do that. I think I pretty much worked a lot. Worked a lot, went home, and took care of my home. O’Reagan: Sure. Let’s see. I went through those. Giulio: Hobbies—what else did I do? Boy, that’s a long time. I like cars. So I would go to car shows. I had a couple friends who were in bands, so I would go watch the bands at different venues. O’Reagan: Such as where? Giulio: In the park. At different--[LAUGHTER]—different bars around the Tri-Cities. So I’d go have a couple drinks and listen to them, and during their breaks, they’d come and talk to me and we’d have some fun. Yeah. At that time, a lot of it seemed to revolve around drinking. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. Let’s see. How much was sort of secrecy or security a part of your Hanford working experience? Giulio: As mail carrier, it was—I didn’t read the classified material. It wasn’t addressed to me, so I didn’t open it. But I definitely had to keep it very secure and make sure it got to the correct person, and that they—they had to sign for it, also. So there was this custody—chain of custody type of thing. The paperwork—okay, I received it, yes, I filed it, I got it to the person it was supposed to go to, he filed it, I kept that piece of paper, and then what paperwork needed to go back to whoever sent it—had to make sure it got back to that person also. Not a lot of secrecy at that time, other than the classified material. The metal operator job—not a lot of—no. O’Reagan: Okay. Let’s see. Were there other pictures there, or was that it? Giulio: Oh. This was a picture that I found when I was going through my father’s paperwork. I’m not sure where or when it was, or even what it’s all about. This is my father right here. He was never one to really smile much in photographs. I think I recognize this person, but I can’t recall his name. I believe it was one of my father’s friends at the time. Like I said, I don’t remember what it was or where it or when it was, and there’s nothing on the back! So. Yeah. O’Reagan: Let’s see. I had a question that blanked out of my mind. I hate when that happens. While I’m thinking, anything we haven’t discussed that you had thought maybe would be worth sharing? Giulio: Hmm. [LAUGHTER] A story that my grandmother told me. [LAUGHTER] Ha. When they moved out here, they had just started all the Alphabet Houses. They had started building them, and they were able to get into one. She told me, at that time, nobody locked their doors. Because it was all government, everything was—all the repairs were taken care of by the government. The houses were painted, the landscaping was placed, all of that. She said that one night, her and my grandfather and my mom and her brothers went out to—I don’t know if it was dinner or a movie—but they had gone out. They came home and pulled into the driveway, everybody got out, and she—I think she said my grandfather walked in first. He opened the door and walked in, and then she walked in, and she’s standing there holding the door, and she goes, Sam, this is not our house. [LAUGHTER] But it was all dark. It was dark enough in the night that all the lights were off, and most people went to bed fairly early back then. Yeah, she said that they very quietly went out the door and shut the door. I guess they had gone one house farther than what they needed to. But she said it was pretty spooky. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: So you grew up here in the ‘60s, ‘70s and onward. Was the Cold War or the anti-nuclear stuff, or the other sort of national stuff something that impacted your life at all, or was that just sort of out? Giulio: It did impact my life to a certain degree, yes. Because coming from this area, most of us had been around it for the majority of our lives—or all of our lives. When I moved to Yakima in the mid-‘80s, I met some anti-nuke people. Or a lot of the people that I became friends with were decidedly anti-nuke. I met one gal who had actually come to—I don’t know if they called it a protest then, or what—but they would breach the fences, and then they’d get arrested because they were on government land. So, yes, I became friends with someone like that. I tried to explain to them the measures that were taken so that the average Joe didn’t get contaminated—as far as I knew, the measures that were taken. And of course, they’re all thinking everybody glows green out here or blue. You touch something, you get your skin scrubbed off with a wire brush. That was in the age of Silkwood—is that what the name of the film was? O’Reagan: I don’t remember. Giulio: Me either! [LAUGHTER] It had Meryl Streep and Cher and somebody else in it, I don’t remember. Yeah, I think it was Silkwood, Karen Silkwood. Okay, so we’ll stop that. [LAUGHTER] O’Reagan: Oh. But that wasn’t really a point of contention? They were able to sort of live with disagreement with you on that, I guess? Giulio: Yeah, we agreed to disagree. I don’t think they were particularly pleased that I had worked out here or was working out here, but— O’Reagan: How have the Tri-Cities changed over the course of your living here? Giulio: Oh, my gosh. It’s not so Hanford-centered, which I find very nice. We’ve got different companies in here with different missions. I’ve seen part of the reservation opened up, and different businesses in there, and not even nuclear-related businesses. Which I find refreshing, so that it’s not like this entity that is just sitting there taking over. Yeah, it’s much—the Hanford site is much smaller now. There’s no special nuclear material out there anymore. Obviously, there’s waste out there, or else we wouldn’t have the cleanup effort that we have going on—which, by the way, I like that also. Not exactly sure how it’s going or where it’s going or what’s happening to it, since I don’t work out there any longer. O’Reagan: Okay. Giulio: Yes. Nice to hear about that. O’Reagan: Okay. I think those are the main questions I had written down here. Anything else that comes to your mind? Giulio: Not that I can think of. O’Reagan: Great. All right, well thanks so much for being here. Giulio: Thank you! O’Reagan: All right. Giulio: And if you’re interested in speaking to my cousins, I can give them contact information. If you’re interested in speaking to my husband, I can talk to him, see if he would be—because like I said, he started out there in 1986 and he’s held every position on patrol except for training. O’Reagan: Yeah, that’d be great. Emma helps coordinate all that, so she’s already been in contact with her— Giulio: Yes. O’Reagan: I can tell her to ask. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:40:31 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 200 Area 300 Area 2-East Area K-West Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1961-1965/66 1973/74-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1981-1986 1986-? Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Ralph Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Teena Giulio Description An account of the resource An interview with Teena Giulio conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05-04-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-04-12: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 105 Building 109 Building 2-East Area 200 Area 200 East 200 East Area 300 Area Cold War drinking Hanford Houses K-West Area Kennewick N Reactor War https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F86f4b8ef9b4f5b6c6aac3ba5f2435bdd.jpg 93aa1b2083ed7a999121244510383aec https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff6c5567a91e58d2928cdcf7bcda4637d.mp4 93cc7bae99c98893e487e90a63f6afb4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Terri Aldridge Description An account of the resource An interview with Terri Aldridge conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F5bc28da2712e92cc111e8a42f58162b2.JPG b30c1468bb1898b28d47f878587786b3 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe5108d812a6ed53c862e9510df2a9ba5.mp4 0a83e145bb516d9fac87440969f5d45d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Vanessa Moore Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas Moore Location The location of the interview Pasco, Washington Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Vanessa Moore: My name is Vanessa Moore. I’m a member of the Triple-A-S History and Recognition Committee, and I’m here this afternoon with Mr. Thomas Moore to speak with him a little bit about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working out at the Hanford Site. How are you doing, Tommy? Thomas Moore: Fine. Vanessa Moore: Good. Just have a few questions we’d like to ask you. First of all, when did you come to this area, when did you arrive in the Tri-Cities? Thomas Moore: Some part of ’39. Vanessa Moore: That’s very early. Thomas Moore: Yeah, I don’t remember just what month. That was a long time ago, you know. Vanessa Moore: Mm-hm. Did you come alone, or did someone come out with you? Thomas Moore: No, one fella come with me. Vanessa Moore: Okay, could I get his name? Thomas Moore: Golly, I don’t remember. Vanessa Moore: It’s been a long time, hasn’t it? About how old were you at that time? Thomas Moore: 19. Vanessa Moore: 19 years old. Where’d you live before coming here? Thomas Moore: Corpus Christi—I mean, Alice, Texas. Vanessa Moore: Alice, Texas, is that where you’re originally from? Why did you decide to come? How’d you hear about it? Thomas Moore: Well, this friend of mine did. He was a cook. And he told me about the job, that they was paying a dollar an hour for cooks in Washington. Vanessa Moore: How’d that compare to where you lived? Thomas Moore: $17 a week, 12 hours a day, seven days a week. Vanessa Moore: Wow. So it looked pretty good, sounded pretty good. Thomas Moore: Yeah, sounded okay, yeah. Vanessa Moore: So you and he came together? Thomas Moore: Mm-hmm, yes. Vanessa Moore: Okay. Did you come and do that type of work? Thomas Moore: No. Vanessa Moore: Once you got here? Thomas Moore: No, we didn’t. Vanessa Moore: Let me back up just a little bit. How did you travel to the Tri-Cities or to Hanford at that time? Thomas Moore: To Hanford, we come on the bus. But— Vanessa Moore: From Alice? Thomas Moore: No, from Alice we come on the freight. Vanessa Moore: Oh, on the freight train. Thomas Moore: Yeah. Vanessa Moore: Okay. Thomas Moore: And what made it so bad was that he smoked and we were both hungry. But he had double troubles. He wanted a cigarette and then he wanted food, too. I just was hungry. He— Vanessa Moore: It was a long ride, it sounds like. [LAUGHTER] Thomas Moore: Yeah. Vanessa Moore: Now, once you arrived here, where was the first place you stayed? Were there relatives, or--? Thomas Moore: No, we didn’t have no relatives, no relatives here. No, we got off the freight in Pasco at that old depot down there. We didn’t stay here long. We just stayed—we just was hoboing. Vanessa Moore: Oh, okay. Thomas Moore: No place to live or nothing. You got out of there the first—fast as we could and we went over there to Seattle. Went over to Seattle and got a room at the Jackson Hotel. Vanessa Moore: Okay, so this was in 1939, and this was sort of just a stopover, and you kept on going. Thomas Moore: Yeah, I was on my way. To Seattle. Vanessa Moore: So, really you were headed for Seattle when you left Texas. Okay, I understand. But at some point, rather, though, you ended up back in this area. Thomas Moore: In 1949—in December, that I can remember good. In December, 1949, I come to look at a restaurant, cocktail lounge and everything that I purchased. The Poulet Palace. Vanessa Moore: The Poulet Palace? Thomas Moore: That was the name of it. Vanessa Moore: Okay, where was that located? Thomas Moore: On Lewis Street. Vanessa Moore: So in Pasco, here. And you had mentioned to me prior to the interview that you did some work—you did do some work out at Hanford with regards to surveying. Can you tell me about that? Thomas Moore: Oh, yes, we was working with—my job was I drove a jeep, and we had concrete on a sled. When they surveyors would put a stake down, I’d have to come along and take it back and dig it up and put a little concrete in there and put the stake back. Because when the wind blows so bad, the stake would blow all the way around. It was a little hard to blow that little wad of concrete that I had put the stake in. Vanessa Moore: I see. Tommy, when you were working on the railroad with the surveyors, about what year was that? Thomas Moore: That, I don’t exactly remember, but I’m thinking it was in ’42 or a little later. Could’ve been a little later, but that was at the Hanford Site. E.I. DuPont. Vanessa Moore: E.I. DuPont, okay. Thomas Moore: That was the name of it. Vanessa Moore: That’s right. Thomas Moore: We all knew that he made shotgun shells, but we didn’t know—nobody knew he was making an atomic bomb. Vanessa Moore: Wow, they didn’t tell you too much about that, did they? Thomas Moore: No. Vanessa Moore: So how did you feel about working at Hanford? Were there big crews? A lot of other blacks, or just a few? Thomas Moore: It was quite a few. Mm-hmm. We had—don’t remember too well, but if I’m not mistaken, we had our own mess hall when we finally got a mess hall. But before that, we was eating at a basement in the little town of Hanford. Vanessa Moore: The town of Hanford. So there was-- Thomas Moore: Yeah. Eating down in the basement. Vanessa Moore: So eventually, then, there was a separate mess hall from the blacks, separate ones for-- Thomas Moore: Yeah, I’m thinkin’. Vanessa Moore: I’ve heard that. Thomas Moore: Yeah, I don’t know for sure. Vanessa Moore: Now, on the job, do you feel you were treated all right? Can you tell us about that? Thomas Moore: Oh, everything went fine. Everything went okay. Vanessa Moore: I have to ask you this, what was the hardest thing to adjust to when you first started out here? Obviously, you came from a different state, you came from doing a different type of work. What was the hardest adjustment for you? Thomas Moore: There was no hard adjustment. We just went along with the flow. Vanessa Moore: Just go with the flow, everything worked out all right? Thomas Moore: Mm-hmm. Vanessa Moore: Okay. Separate from work, what did you and your friends and coworkers do afterhours? Thomas Moore: Well, sometime we would play baseball when we was working out at the Hanford Site. One time I remember—there was no women there, you know. Vanessa Moore: When you came there were no women? Thomas Moore: No, it was just all men. Vanessa Moore: So you had to find something to do. Thomas Moore: And what happened, we was having a baseball game one Sunday, and a lady showed up, but her husband had got hurt. We broke up the game because everybody wanted to go look at her. [LAUGHTER] Vanessa Moore: Did they get over back and finish the game? Thomas Moore: No, we was playing on our own. Vanessa Moore: Is that right! Thomas Moore: That’s the truth. We broke up the whole game. Vanessa Moore: Is that right? Now, I understand there was a baseball field out there. Is that right? Thomas Moore: Yes. I don’t remember exactly whether that was the field we were playing on or not, but it was— Vanessa Moore: [LAUGHTER] How long did you stay and work at Hanford? Thomas Moore: I really don’t know that either. Vanessa Moore: Months? Years? Thomas Moore: I time-checked—that’s what they referred to it then—and moved back to Seattle. Vanessa Moore: Time-checked. Can you tell me what that means? Thomas Moore: We just—you just turn in your time and everything and quit. Vanessa Moore: Oh, okay. Thomas Moore: So it’s what you say, time-checking, they call it. Vanessa Moore: And then you returned to Seattle? Okay. So it was a later date that you came back again to open the— Thomas Moore: Yeah, in ’49. In December, I come back to purchase the place in December ’49. Vanessa Moore: Okay. So you were one of the, if not the first, black-owned business in the Tri-Cities, it sounds like. Thomas Moore: I was. Vanessa Moore: That’s great, that’s great. Thomas Moore: And my family was the first of doing almost everything in the Tri-Cities. My daughter was the first—Shirley was the first one to work at the US Bank as a teller. Vanessa Moore: This was your daughter, Shirley. Thomas Moore: Yeah. And then my wife was the first one was a checker at a Safeway store. And my other daughter, my baby daughter, was the first one to win Miss Tri-Cities. Vanessa Moore: Wow. So many accomplishments in your family. Thomas Moore: It really went—everything we went to, pretty good. Vanessa Moore: Mm-hmm. Since we’re talking about family, tell me a little bit more about that. Are there—maybe your other children or businesses that you’ve had, things that you’ve done since those days? Thomas Moore: Since—from then, or before then? Vanessa Moore: Since then. Thomas Moore: Since then? Vanessa Moore: Mm-hmm. Thomas Moore: Well, I left from the Poulet Palace and went over and opened up a pool hall. And from the pool hall—oops. Vanessa Moore: That’s okay, you can just go ahead and hold that in your hand. [VIDEO CUTS] Thomas Moore: And from the pool hall, I just worked in there and come on until, in 1969, I worked eight years for Chuck Ackerblade in the scrap business, two dollars an hour. And then I opened my own place— Vanessa Moore: Scrap business also? Thomas Moore: In 1969. Hmm? Vanessa Moore: Scrap business as well? Thomas Moore: Yeah, scrap business in 1969. I worked for him just to learn the business. And then I’ve been in that for the last 32 years. Vanessa Moore: So that’s brought you a long way. That’s a thriving business here in the Tri-Cities, isn’t it? Thomas Moore: Well, it’s holding its own. Vanessa Moore: Yeah. Any of your children still in the area, and tell us a little bit about them? Thomas Moore: Well, I got—my son works with me. He started working with me when he could walk. Vanessa Moore: [LAUGHTER] Probably not working too hard at that time. Thomas Moore: Probably. He started following me when he could walk, and he been following me ever since. I got one daughter here and one daughter in Seattle. One son in San Diego and a daughter in Chicago. Vanessa Moore: Mm-hmm, but you’ve chosen to stay here. Thomas Moore: Oh, I guess I’ll cash in here. Vanessa Moore: Long time ago since Texas, isn’t it? Okay, Tommy, I really do appreciate your time and the information and you mentioned—I’m going to take us back a little bit because I neglected to ask you this, that they didn’t really tell you what everyone was working on out there. Did you have an idea, or did you suspect what it was? Thomas Moore: No, the only thing we knew, that I.E. DuPont made shotgun shells. Now, that we knew. [LAUGHTER] That was all that everybody talked about. So when you compared to—well, it had to be something explosive. Vanessa Moore: At least that much, we— Thomas Moore: The fella with the shotgun business and the shell business— Vanessa Moore: Was in charge. Thomas Moore: Something. But we didn’t, nobody knew. Vanessa Moore: Okay. Thomas Moore: You just do what you was told and get off and go back to the barracks. Vanessa Moore: And go back to the barracks. Now, you did live in the barracks for a while? Thomas Moore: Oh, yeah, it’s when I was living in the barracks and when I time-checked, I did. Vanessa Moore: Mm-hmm. Tell—can you tell us a little bit about what that was like? I mean, did they have rules like military barracks, or this was just the housing? Thomas Moore: It was just two men to the room, and there wasn’t nothing, you didn’t have no laws or nothing like that, you just went home and then they—full barracks and a washhouse in the center. Vanessa Moore: It was attached to it, or--? Thomas Moore: Yeah, it was a four units but then where they attached together, that’s where the showers was, the showers and the bathrooms and all that stuff. And then from that to the mess hall. Vanessa Moore: For eating. So pretty much everything was— Thomas Moore: So you really didn’t need anything else, you know. Vanessa Moore: It’s kind of like a little town. Thomas Moore: They fed good. Vanessa Moore: Is that right? Thomas Moore: Yeah. Vanessa Moore: Solid meals, huh? Okay, well, thank you very much. If there are names of others who worked out there, we’d like to know who those people were and maybe talk with them. Thomas Moore: I can’t remember nothing that’s been that far back. Vanessa Moore: Well, if something comes to you, let me know, I appreciate it. Thomas Moore: Thank you. Vanessa Moore: Thank you. [VIDEO CUTS] Vanessa Moore: Tommy, you mentioned before that you came to Washington state from Alice, Texas. I was curious about the type of work that you did in Alice. Thomas Moore: I was a cook at a restaurant. First, I started out as a dishwasher for five dollars a week and worked on up ‘til I got cook. But the reason why they wouldn’t give me a cooking a job, because I’d have to take a job as a dishwasher, because the restaurants was hard—they didn’t want to live any customers, and for a young kid, as young as I was, they wouldn’t hire you as a cook. But when the cooks—all cooks drink quite a bit. So when a cook showed up—or the cook didn’t show up because he was drunk, then I’d get in the kitchen and start from dishwashing go get on the grill. Vanessa Moore: So you were cooking anyway. Thomas Moore: Yeah, and then I’d get the job. [LAUGHTER] Yeah that’s about it. And then I—it was 12 hours a day, seven days a week. Vanessa Moore: And what kind of wages? Thomas Moore: Oh, the most I ever made was $17. Vanessa Moore: $17 a week, is that correct? Okay. So you had heard that in Washington State— Thomas Moore: It was paying a dollar an hour. Vanessa Moore: For the same type of work? Thomas Moore: Yes, and I had a 1935 convertible Packard, I bought it in 1937. They had a Plymouth, yellow with a black top, $875. I wanted to come and get it. It was 1940. Vanessa Moore: So you were motivated, is what you’re telling me. Thomas Moore: Yeah, that’s right, I wanted to come and trade my Packard in and get that Plymouth. Vanessa Moore: Thank you, I appreciate that. [VIDEO CUTS] Vanessa Moore: Tommy, there is a period of years between you leaving Hanford, leaving this area, and then coming back later on to purchase the Poulet Palace. What were you doing during that time and where did you live? Thomas Moore: Well, I lived at the Jackson Hotel and then— Vanessa Moore: This is in Seattle? Thomas Moore: In Seattle. And then I was working for George Crawford Smith at a restaurant. He didn’t know anything about a restaurant, but he had the money to buy it. So I went to work for him. And then, after a length of time—I worked for him for about a year and a half—I bought my own place. Vanessa Moore: Still in the Seattle area? Thomas Moore: Yes. And he said that I wouldn’t make it. So I told him, I said, well, Mr. Smith, you were 48 years old before you made it, and I’m 21. I can go in and out of business a long time before I get 48. [LAUGHTER] And still make it. So that’s life. Vanessa Moore: Mm-hmm. Did you spend any time in the military at all over your career? Thomas Moore: Yes, I’d volunteered for the Army Transfer Service. And I don’t exactly know how many years I was in that, but I made 22 trips to Japan, eight trips to Hawai’i, and eight trips to Jeosang, Korea. Vanessa Moore: You’ve been all around. Thomas Moore: I have been, yeah. I went more further overseas than I have in the United States. Vanessa Moore: Wow. Where were you stationed when you were in the service? Thomas Moore: Bremerton. Vanessa Moore: Bremerton, Washington? Thomas Moore: Yes. Vanessa Moore: Okay. So you’ve covered a lot of this state, too. Thomas Moore: Well, not too bad. Vanessa Moore: Not to mention, though, we’re all—well, Mr. Moore, we appreciate your time today. Thank you. Thomas Moore: Okay. <a href="https://youtu.be/Ty7vVsnjTS8">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1949-2010 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Thomas Moore Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Seattle (Wash.) Migration Segregation Description An account of the resource Thomas Moore moved to Pasco, Washington in 1949 and opened many local businesses. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/23/2001 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6ab722ac01a147b1b9bf8346fe89b88e.jpg 0541064ab79086aa6ffb6e38bf053c1d https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F99060c2ca77f606f7e537fa1c6141339.mp4 2c6fd2b415a548989994190c44e23408 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tim Lynch Description An account of the resource An interview with Tim Lynch conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2dfabc7cdd127876e2887c8b732f24cc.JPG 28eb938062eb4770c1b8f122a4933867 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tom Bennett Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Tom Bennett on September 18, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Tom about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. For the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Tom Bennett: Full name is Thomas J. Bennett. T-H-O-M-A-S. Middle initial J. And then Bennett, B-E-N-N-E-T-T. Franklin: Great, thanks. And do you prefer Tom? Bennett: I go by Tom, yes. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: Unless it’s academic circles. Franklin: I’m fine with—casual’s fine with me. So, Tom, tell me how and why you came to the area to work for Hanford Site. Bennett: I graduated from UCLA in 1964. My goal was to get a long ways away from the Los Angeles area. The final choice was between Houston where they were doing the man on the moon which was another five years before that happened, and Hanford, which to me, it was exciting because it was nuclear energy. Franklin: What was your degree in? Bennett: Engineering. Franklin: Engineering, okay. Just basic engineering? Bennett: Yeah, well, UCLA thought they were way ahead of everyone. In your junior and senior year, if you were an engineering major, you had to take two courses in electrical engineering, a course in nuclear engineering, a course or two in mechanical engineering. They tried to spread everything, because someone had done a study and they observed that people who were a mechanical engineer, five years later they were working as a civil engineer, and vice versa. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: So they tried to make it real broad. And then I went to University of Washington, I got a master’s degree in nuclear engineering and then a doctorate in civil engineering from WSU. Franklin: Oh, okay, and when did you finish up at WSU? Bennett: ’88. Franklin: ’88, oh, okay. But you weren’t in school—were you in school that entire time? Or were you working? Bennett: No, I worked at Hanford from ’64 to ’70, but I took ’67 and ’68 off to get the master’s degree from University of Washington. And then I went over to WSU between ’87 and ’88 to complete my doctorate. Franklin: Okay. [CLEARS THROAT] Sorry. Tell me about your work at Hanford. What did you do? Bennett: Well, I started off in the 300 Area. You had to—they had a trainee program, I think it was. You had to work someplace while you got your security clearance. We had the badges. The first one was a red badge, then a yellow badge, then a green badge is when you finally had your Q clearance. I worked at 300 Area; I remember working with Bill Bright and Carl somebody. They had a machine there that they took plutonium in a gassed-out container and then they had a smasher that would—when it was red hot and it’d been out-gassing for an hour or so, they’d have the smasher come down on it, and they wanted to get 99% theoretical density plutonium. Franklin: So you mean to like turn it into a solid? Bennett: Well, it was already a solid. Franklin: Already a solid. Bennett: But they heated it up to red-hot and a little tube came out the top and then they cut the tube off, and the smasher came down and crushed it. So, good thing it didn’t blow up, too. Franklin: Yeah! What amount, were we talking grams, or— Bennett: About a kilogram. Franklin: A kilogram. Bennett: I think. Because if they get too much, it goes critical on you. Franklin: Right. And what was the purpose of that? Why— Bennett: I don’t know. Well, a guy by the name of John Burnham, I think it was, it was his idea to do this smashing. He got all kinds of credit for it and awards and so on and so forth. It was his pet project. I wound up working there to start with. Franklin: What did you do there? Bennett: Watched. Franklin: Just watched, just observed? Bennett: Pretty much, yeah. Franklin: Okay. I wonder if you could tell me about the—talk a little bit about security, since you mentioned Q clearance. Security and secrecy, what was that process like and how long did it take? Bennett: I think it took about six months, but I didn’t know anything about clearances when I came here. But you had three different colored badges, one was when you start and then you get partially cleared. You get another color. And the green was the final security clearance. I believe they were called—what, do you have—you’ve talked to other people about this, haven’t you? Franklin: A little bit. Bennett: What do they call those clearances? Top secret or something like that? Franklin: I don’t—yeah, I’m not a clearance expert. Bennett: Yeah, one of the first colors was yellow and one was red, and then green was when you finally could go out in the Area and work. Franklin: Right, okay. So what did you do after you got your clearance? Bennett: I had three or four of the three-month assignments. One of them was at the 300 Area with the crusher or smasher. And then another was at N Reactor, I believe. It was the new production reactor at the time. And I think I had one at B Reactor operations. Because I remember they put me on—they had ABCD shift. And you worked six days and then seven swings and then six graveyards. And you got one-and-two-thirds days off between swing and night and then after you did the graveyard, you got four-and-two-thirds days off to come back and start the ABCD shift over again. What I remember about that was I could not adjust to it. Some of these guys had done it for 20, 30 years and they got along fine. I could not adjust to the graveyards. Franklin: And that’s where you would be there overnight, right? Bennett: Well, you’d be there from midnight ‘til 8 in the morning, or 11—well, it took an hour to get out there and an hour to get back, so whatever your shift was, you wound up doing ten or 11 hours. Or if you have, I don’t know what, half hour for lunch, maybe it’s 12 hours to do eight hours. Franklin: Wow. Bennett: It was more than the eight. Because the ride out was an hour and the ride back was an hour on the buses. I know I was not real happy with the salary, because it wasn’t as big as I thought I was worth. But they said, well, Tom, you can ride the bus for 50 miles for a nickel. Oh, well, if that’s the—I assume that was the economy, so that the money I made would be a lot. Franklin: Where did you live when you worked out there? Bennett: 2009 George Washington Way. Franklin: And what was that, was it a house or apartments or--? Bennett: It was a house. I meant—I tried to find it on the way in, but I didn’t—I was past it, the 2300 block before I saw it. I’ll see if I can find it on the way back out. But first I lived there, and then later on, I lived at 2404 Concord, I lived at 1408 Perry Court, and eventually bought a house. Franklin: Did you live in any Alphabet Houses? Bennett: F Houses? No. Franklin: Any Alphabet Houses? Bennett: Yeah, I know what, B, B, D, F. No, I lived at 2404 Concord—2009 George Washington Way was the first one, and then at 1408 Perry Court for a while, and then eventually wound up at 2404 Concord, and that’s the one I bought. Franklin: Oh, okay. So when you were working out these graveyards at B Reactor, what was your job, what were you doing? Bennett: What I remember is, since I was kind of a trainee, I’d go through the records. It was really fascinating to me to read about the early days when they started Hanford up, they had no idea what was going on or how big it would have to be. Enrico Fermi was out here. The old guys were here then that had been here when he was here, and they called him Henry Farmer. But interestingly the older guys were doing the work and the young guys were telling them what to do and how to do it. Franklin: Really? Bennett: Yeah. Franklin: And why was that? Bennett: Well, this was during the war, World War II. People had to have jobs. If you were in the Army, if you were young, you were in the Army or the Navy or the Air Force or Marines. And if you were older, a lot of them, I think 50,000 people came up here to work at Hanford. They had a big camp out there someplace, fenced in where you lived. Well, what I remember doing was reading the historical records about when it started up. I know it was because of Fermi that first they were going to have just the circular—well, B Reactor, what is that, 1,004 tubes? Franklin: 2,000 tubes. Bennett: 2,000 tubes? Well, originally we were going to just have circular form, because that’s the most efficient. But Enrico Fermi made sure that they had the corners, the tubes. And sure enough, the, I believe it’s zirconium that when they started up, everything went great and then all the sudden, phew, everything went down. Franklin: The xenon poisoning. Bennett: Xenon! Yeah, the xenon poisoning. Fermi figured that out. They figured it was xenon. They put more, they filled up the rest of the tubes, the corners, and that was enough to overcome the xenon to get things going. And you’ve been out to B Reactor, haven’t you? Franklin: Yes. Bennett: Yeah, and you see how big that thing is, and they built that, what, 60, 70 years ago? It was quite a deal. Franklin: It was. I’m wondering if you could describe a typical work day out at B Reactor when you were out there. Bennett: Well, I’d ride the bus out there. The older guys on the bus, they played cards all the way out there. I thought, these guys are kind of crazy. But then six weeks later, I’m playing cards right along with them. I learned how to play pinochle. I didn’t know anything about, virtually nothing about cards. But it cost me quite a few nickels but I did learn. I got to be as good as the rest of them after a while. I thought it was kind of weird, because these guys would play cards all the way out, during lunch they’d play cards, and they’d play cards all the way back, for nickels. Pinochle for nickels. Eventually I was in there with the thick of them. I do remember at N Reactor, a fellow named Milton Lewis. He had been a teacher at UCLA when I was there and I ran across him again. They had three guys there. One was Milt Lewis, another was Warren Macadam and the third was Roy Shoemaker. And the workers there nicknamed them the Shoe, the Jew and the Shrew. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I’m wondering—stories about the bus are great. What was your day-to-day job at B Reactor, besides reading up on the history, what were you tasked with doing out there? Bennett: Well, it was cold operations. They ran the reactor, they sat there and watched the reactor go. From time to time they’d have to refuel it, and I’d watch that, be on the front face. Like an idiot, I wondered what was inside the tubes, so I looked inside one when it was empty. And then I realized, there’s probably radiation coming out of that into my eyes, probably not a real good idea. But I’m a young kid, 23 or 24, not knowing anything. But that was— Refueling was one of the things. Around back—well, when the tubes or the fuel elements, when they’d been irradiated enough, they pushed them out the back, they went into a little pool that was 20 feet deep. And you’d go around back—not while they were discharging them, but afterwards, you could go around back and you could look into that 20-foot pool and you could see the glow. It had a greenish-blue glow from the irradiated fuel elements. And they’d sit there for a while, then they’d take them to the 200 Area and process them. Interestingly enough, 2,000 pounds of uranium would make two pounds of plutonium, or maybe one pound. I mean, it was extremely small percentage. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bennett: When you think of the 200 Area where they did all those separations, how much—well, they put the things in double-shell tanks, now those tanks are rotting, it’s leaking into the Columbia River. All this is still going on and it’s, what, 60, 70 years later. Franklin: Did you ever go out to the 200 Area at all? Bennett: No. Well, I drove by it every day on the way to work. Franklin: Sure. Bennett: But I didn’t go and look at it. I knew they had tunnels. When they built it, I remember from reading a long time ago that they were going to have to use remote control to handle these things, so they used a remote control to build it. Then how deep were those troughs, those trenches? Were they— Franklin: Oh, I don’t remember off the top of my head. Bennett: I remember reading about it. They were long. Franklin: They were very long. I think they were something like 20 feet deep and then 40 feet wide. They’re all cells and they’re all—yeah. Bennett: Almost a mile long or whatever they had, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Really, really long, yeah. Like several football fields. Bennett: Right. Franklin: Yeah, huge. So you worked at 300 Area and then N and then B. Did you work anywhere—and how long did you work at— Bennett: Each assignment, I think, was three months long. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: And I think I had three or four of them. Franklin: Then what did you do after that? Bennett: I worked at—I believe I worked at N Reactor. And then I left in ’67 to go over at University of Washington to get a master’s degree. Came back in ’68. And from ’68 to ’70, I’m pretty sure I was at N Reactor. And that was exciting. They were producing power as well as plutonium. Franklin: Yeah. What was your job then at N Reactor? Bennett: I was called nuclear engineer. I worked for Roy Shoemaker. There was seven or eight guys in the group. What I noticed—because I noticed that all the new engineers that came in, in six months to a year, they were gone. I was just aware of it, sort of in passing. Then after I went and got my master’s degree and came back, instead of working for the old guy, he’s gone now, Shoemaker is, but he’d been an engineering instructor at Oregon or Oregon State, one of those colleges. When I came back, I worked for Paul Cohen. He was a young guy; he was 30, 35, something like that. He had a fairly good-sized group. I think—this was back in I think the 300 Area, it was downtown. I worked for him. And the contrast between working for Shoemaker and working for Cohen was like between night and day. I understood why all those guys left Shoemaker after I worked for a good supervisor. I was a brand-new kid fresh out of college; I didn’t have any experience, didn’t know who a good instructor—or good teacher from a good—what do you call it, supervisor from a bad one. But after I had two supervisors, I realized why all those guys left after they’d been there not very long. Franklin: And what was it about Shoemaker versus Cohen that made it—made people leave so early? Bennett: Well, one of the things was Shoemaker had a pet. He’d give the same assignment—like a college professor—he gave me an assignment he gave his pet. And I remember, I was fairly good at math, so I figured out an exact solution to this thing. And this other kid, the pet, he did an approximate solution. He came out to my office—I was out in the Area a little bit. It was a different building. It wasn’t the N Reactor building; it was an outbuilding. He came out there, because he had an office inside, and he wanted to know all about my performance of calculations for such a thing. Eventually I figured out he wanted to know what I’d done because I’d done a better job than he had and he was the pet. This didn’t go over well with him. Franklin: Oh, so kind of playing favorites, playing people off— Bennett: Well, he’s playing favorites but the un-favorite did a better job than the favorite did. So the pet didn’t like that. Franklin: Yeah, I bet not. Bennett: But then that didn’t happen with Cohen. Cohen was a very good supervisor. Franklin: And you worked with Cohen at N Reactor as well? Bennett: No. I wish I could remember—wish I had those sheets that I lost, because it would tell me where I worked and when. I can only remember three of the four assignments; I don’t remember what the fourth one was. Franklin: That’s okay. Bennett: It’s been 60, 70 years. Franklin: So when you say nuclear engineer and working with a group of people, what kind of job is that? Is it a lot of calculations work, are you in the control room--? Bennett: Well, one of the things we did, we had a—we put a bunch of thermocouples in the back of the reactor in a tube. We wanted to get the heat distribution. It was a tube-in-tube fuel element. They had about an inch diameter tube that went down the middle, then they had some struts, and then they had another tube outside it, which was kind of an interesting arrangement, so they could get water flowing between the two tubes. We wanted to get the heat distribution of that, so we set up the thermocouples to measure the heat, and then figured out how hot it was getting and we could use that to improve the design for the next generation. It was that type of work. That’s one assignment I remember. Franklin: Oh, okay. Do you remember any other assignments? Bennett: No. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: I did like doing the math, though. Figuring out that—you get the regular dimensions and the tolerance, plus and minus, so you figure out all the variations and how much difference there can be from smallest to largest and how much fluid would go through it and what the approximations are. Franklin: Cool. And then after ’70, did you leave Hanford? Bennett: I went to WSU to work on a doctorate. Franklin: Oh, okay. And when did you start that? Bennett: In ’72, I believe. I think I was there from ’70 to ’72. Do you remember, Mary Ann? Okay. Because I worked from—I went to work in January or February, no, late January of ’64, and I worked there until ’67. Then I went over to University of Washington, ’67, ’68. Came back in ’68 and ’68 to ’70, I worked here at Hanford. And then ’70 to ’72, I taught at WSU. I taught statics, dynamics and fluid mechanics during those two years at WSU. Franklin: Okay, and that’s while you were working on your doctorate? Bennett: Right. But they gave me a title, pre-doctoral teaching associate. I taught those three courses. And took classes, too. Franklin: Okay. And then you finished your doctorate in ’72? Bennett: ’70—no, ’88. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: Yeah, I didn’t—how—what—I’m trying to remember why I didn’t—there was a reason I didn’t finish it in ’72. I’ll think of it later and tell you. Franklin: Sure. And then were you at WSU that entire time? Bennett: No. Just ’70 to ’72. And then I went to—I took a one-year temporary teaching assignment at a community college, Big Bend Community College in Moses Lake. I went there for one year, because Big Bend had finagled themselves a contract in Germany. What they did was they taught Army guys, well, servicemen, they gave them classes so they could get their—before Big Bend went there, they got GEDs. Big Bend had the bright idea of instead of giving the Army guys GEDs, they’d give them actual high school diplomas. This brought a lot of money in to the college. Because, you know, high school diplomas are a lot better than a GED. I used some of that money to start a circuit writer type program. Between ’72 and ’79, I think it was, ’78, I taught computer classes in 17 different high schools all the way from Cooley Dam in the north to Connell in the south and east and west from Quincy to Washtucna. Franklin: Oh, wow. Bennett: Remember I talked to you earlier about when you first started? My first year of doing those computer classes, I thought I’d really done a good job. And I looked back at it three or four years later, I was ashamed and embarrassed at how little I’d done the first year. Once it caught on. And at that time, Big Bend had a music teacher named Wayne Freeman. He had some kind of contacts with Hollywood, and he’d bring in people from Hollywood. They had what they called a play. What did they call—do you remember the names of those plays, Mary Ann? Mary Ann Bennett: Musical production. Bennett: Musical productions. The first time he brought Leonard Nimoy up and he played Oliver, played the lead role in Oliver. For eight or twelve years while Freeman was the music instructor, he brought these Hollywood-type people up. And they’d have a play, they had a 700 or 800-seat theater and it was packed for all four or five performances. Franklin: I was going to say, I imagine that’d be a pretty big deal for Moses Lake. Bennett: Oh, big deal. And that was the time I was doing the high schools and I’d have my high school classes come down to it and they just—they loved it. It was great. Franklin: When you say computer, were you working with mainframes and that kind of thing? Bennett: That’s what they had started off with, upper-left-corner-cut carts. You’ve seen them. Franklin: I’ve seen them. Never had to use them, but I’ve seen them. Bennett: Well, I would carry—I had a pickup truck. I would take the key punch machines to the high schools, and the kids would punch out their cards. I’d take them back and run them through the computer, and take them back with the output. And then they’d go back until they got them to run. That was a big deal then. But that was, what, in the ‘70s? It was long before they had the personal computers. Everything was mainframe. Franklin: Yup. So did you ever come back to working at Hanford? Bennett: No. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: No. I did that high school—what was really interesting to me was the only kids in these high schools that would take these classes was the top 2% or 3%. The kids that would go on to Harvard or Yale or BYU or some big type, University of Washington. These were really, really bright kids. I knew that they were smarter than the kids I was teaching at Big Bend. It took me a while to figure that out, too. Because I realized later that all I had was the top 2% or 3% of each high school. But I knew—why is it these high school kids are smarter than my college kids? Well, because they’re the top of the line. Franklin: So what were some of the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your work at Hanford? Bennett: Well, being involved with what ended World War II was a big thing to me. Because my dad was in the Philippines getting ready to take part in the invasion of Japan, which they figured, if that did happen would’ve been a million casualties. What was it, the Civil War only we took 750,000 from both sides in four or five years. I mean that would’ve really been bad because of the atomic bomb because of the crash program. In some of the reading I’ve done, what they essentially did was they took 50, 60 years of automatic research and condensed it into two or three, and the result was the atomic bomb. Franklin: Sure. So that was very rewarding to you, to be involved in kind of the continuation of that? Bennett: And what I thought—I thought it saved my dad’s life, probably. Franklin: What about the most challenging aspects? Earlier you mentioned that the graveyard shifts were pretty challenging. Bennett: Yeah, that was challenging. I couldn’t—I realized I couldn’t do it. I thought I was Superman, but I’m not. Franklin: Was there anything else that challenged you out there? Maybe the structure or some of the work or--? Bennett: Well, I thought it was exciting to do that type of work. And I enjoyed it and liked it. Franklin: Were you there when—no, you got there in ’64, so you weren’t there when Kennedy visited. Bennett: No, no, I wasn’t. But he had been out there. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Any memories of like the social scene or local politics in the Tri-Cities and Richland when you got here? Bennett: I remember a guy named Mike McCormack. He lived right behind us. Near, a block or so from George Washington Way. But he eventually got elected to Congress. I don’t know how long he stayed. Do you remember? Have you heard of him? Mike McCormack? Congressman Mike McCormack? Franklin: I’ll have to take a look at that. Bennett: I know he was in the state house and state senate and then he got elected to Congress. In the ‘70s, I’m pretty sure. Franklin: Okay. I’m wondering if you could describe ways in which security or secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Bennett: Well, I did read a lot about the—when I was doing those three-month assignments, there was a good deal of focus on security. Like I said, it took several months for me to get my clearance. You had to go through gates and somebody would check. If you didn’t have your pass, you didn’t go through the gate. That was for every place. Franklin: Did you ever forget your pass? Bennett: No. But I do remember when I was on these assignments, because I was a trainee, I did not get holiday pay. So during one graveyard shift, I was home sleeping and I did not work that day because they’d have to pay me time-and-a-half. But at 3:00 in the morning the guys out there called me, wanting to know how I was doing. You know, that type of humor. You sleeping okay, Tom? We’re getting paid holiday pay, you’re not. Franklin: How come you didn’t go back to Hanford after going to WSU? Bennett: Well, I took the one year temporary assignment at Big Bend. And like I said, they had the money from Germany. So I spent the next six or seven years teaching high school kids at like 17 different high schools. By then I was pretty much associated with the community college and I worked there until 1990. I left to get my master’s degree and somebody else took that program over and it collapsed. And I just taught at Big Bend until 1990. And then—I’m trying to remember what I did from 1990 to 2000. Mary Ann: You ran for office. Bennett: What’s that? Mary Ann: You ran for office. State representative. You ran for office. Bennett: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I didn’t—but that didn’t—that was just one run. What work was I doing? Mary Ann: You worked at Boeing. Bennett: Oh, that’s right, I did from ’79 to ’81, I went to Boeing, worked there. They were developing the 767 and I got to be senior engineer in tool design. That was really fun, working for Boeing. I loved that. Franklin: I bet. Bennett: When I went there, they just built this great big huge building. Somebody said, come on, we’re going to tour the building. So I went on a tour of the building. It was empty. At Hanford, they had all these programs, they’d schedule when it’s going to happen, they get stretched out, stretched out, stretched out. Something that was supposed to take two years would take ten. At Boeing, there’s an empty building, they’re going to do the 767. That was 1979, I went to the empty building. In 1981, airplane number six was rolling out the door. They have their schedules, they keep them. They said, if you don’t get your assignment done, you will stay there until it’s done. The one guy had to stay there for 36 hours. I went and talked to the supervisor. He wasn’t any good after 15, 16 hours, why’d you keep him 36? The supervisor says, Tom, do you know how much Boeing has to pay every day they are late delivering an airplane? I had no idea. $50,000 per day for a late plane. You have an assignment, you get that done or you stay until it’s done. So that was a different attitude and atmosphere than I’d had at Hanford. Franklin: Interesting. I guess that’s kind of the difference that a private company would— Bennett: Commercial. Franklin: Yeah, commercial company would take on a project versus— Bennett: You get an assignment, you get it done. Franklin: Right. I should’ve asked this a lot earlier, but I’m just kind of curious, how did you hear about Hanford? When you were in college and you were looking at places to go work, how did you hear about Hanford? Bennett: They had a job fair at UCLA. No, no, wait a minute. I went to—I think it was in Canada, there was a job fair I went to. That’s where I found out about Hanford. Which was back in United States and in Washington. Franklin: Right. Bennett: Which was where I lived anyway. Franklin: So they had like a booth or something there? Bennett: Yeah. Franklin: That would’ve been General Electric at the time. Bennett: Mm-hmm, it was General Electric at the time. But I went to a job fair, that’s how I found out about it. Franklin: Okay, interesting. So my last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Bennett: Whatever you can get out of them. Franklin: What? Bennett: Whatever you can get from all the people that worked there. I’d like them to know that. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: Are you going to do a summary of this when we’re all done? Franklin: What--? Bennett: Of your own? Franklin: What do you mean? Bennett: From what you’ve learned. You’re learning a lot of things, interviewing people like me. Franklin: Oh, yeah, yeah, I do. Bennett: And you’re going to put it together like Ken Burns did with his Vietnam thing? Franklin: Maybe. These— Bennett: That’s what I’d like to have them know, is your Ken Burns approach to this. Franklin: Okay. Well, we collect these and create—we do this more to generate primary sources, then researchers go through our archives of these interviews and draw what they want. It takes a lot of time to set these up and do them, so I don’t have as much time for writing as I would— I guess I’m asking you, if you kind of give me the opportunity to tell future generations what was the most important thing about being at Hanford during the Cold War? What would you like them to know about working in plutonium production during the Cold War? Bennett: It was exciting and dangerous at the same time. And like I say, I’m just one real small piece in it. I’d like to have them see the big picture. Franklin: Sure. Did you ever feel any danger being, either occupational or working at a site that was so important for the national defense effort? Bennett: Well, I do remember when we worked at the assignment where they smashed the hot thousand-degree plutonium when they compressed it. One day the alarms went off, and they all went off. Franklin: The radiation alarms? Bennett: Yeah, the radiation alarms. And Clarence Munson, I remember he was there, I asked him, what’s going on? He said, well, maybe we’re all crapped up. That was the expression, crapped up, for being irradiated. I think that the alarm had just misfired. But it was—everybody was scared for a while. Franklin: Sure. Did you have protection on, or were you just wearing a dosimeter? Bennett: No, you wore white. White. You had to have a radiation badge and then you had a white coat and you look like somebody in a hospital. Franklin: Right. Did you ever have an instance where you did get crapped up or a small amount or were contaminated? Bennett: Well, when I worked at N Reactor, I had several what was like fuel elements on my desk, I used them for paper weights and stuff. I didn’t realize there’s probably a lot of zirconium in those things and that’s not good for you. Franklin: Oh, okay. Bennett: So I probably got some exposure to zirconium that I didn’t need. I used them for weights. I thought I was young and strong and I’d do like that with them. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] That’s funny. Funny in kind of a— Bennett: Stupid way. Franklin: Yeah. Well, Tom, thank you so much for coming and interviewing with us. I really appreciate you taking the time out. And thank you for sharing your stories about Hanford. Bennett: Okay. Franklin: Did you have anything else that you wanted to add before we— Bennett: I’ll probably think of all sorts of things on the way home. Franklin: Okay, well, you can always send us an email. Bennett: And if I can find those papers that describe everything I did at Hanford, I can probably go twice as long as I’ve gone now. Franklin: Sure. That’d be great. Maybe you can— Bennett: Now, who—where would I go to get that, do you know? Franklin: Oh, to get copies of the papers? Bennett: Copies of my—somebody kept track, because they gave them to me at one time. Franklin: Oh, goodness. I don’t know. We’re just—here at WSU, we’re kind of on the outside looking in. Bennett: Okay, where’s the inside now? Franklin: You know, it’s all run by Department of Energy. MSA is the main contractor. But I just—I don’t know— Bennett: Where’s the Department of Energy headquarters? In the big building downtown, the Federal Building? Franklin: Yeah, yeah, Jadwin, yeah. Bennett: Jadwin. Okay, that’s probably where I should go. Franklin: Records, yeah. That would be, that’s where I’d start. Bennett: Do you have a card? Franklin: What’s that? Bennett: Can I have one of your cards? Franklin: Sure. Yeah, we can get you that. Yeah. We good? [VIDEO CUTS] [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. Bennett: When I was in the 300 Area, they had these fuel elements. Anyway, the guy had two of them, and he said, here, Tom, take these. So I was going to put them together. This was a trap. They had a guy on each side of me. They grabbed my arms like this. They said, if you had put those together, you’d see a blue flash and be dead in ten days. That was the type of coarse humor—kill a guy. Franklin: Jeez. That’s a really serious thing to joke about. Bennett: It is! Well, I didn’t—and that’s part of the reason I did so much study when I was doing the rotating things. I wanted to find out what— Franklin: What could kill you? Bennett: Yeah, yeah. Franklin: Wow. Mary Ann: There was also the beryllium. Bennett: Yeah, well, it was beryllium? What did I say, zirconium? Well, it’s beryllium I think gets in your lungs and screws you up. Franklin: Yeah, yes it does. Bennett: And they use beryllium to assemble those fuel elements. Franklin: Yes. And they use them in the can monitoring units as well. Bennett: Yeah. Franklin: Yup. We have one of those in our collection and it took quite a lot of paperwork to get it to be released. Because—I mean, it’s inside a spring—you’d have to take the thing apart to be exposed, but, yeah, it’s—beryllium’s not something to play around with. Bennett: True, true. Franklin: Okay. Bennett: Yeah, I’ll go over to Jadwin and find out. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. <a href="https://youtu.be/alBP3Gpds0g">View interview on Youtube.</a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area N Reactor B Reactor 200 Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1964- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tom Bennett Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear engineering Civil engineering Nuclear reactors Radioactive waste disposal Nuclear power plants Description An account of the resource Tom Bennett moved to Richland, Washington in 1964 to work on the Hanford Site. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/18/2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F73ed6904e8bdb10d60adbbd8b53d5126.jpg 2ace5ce7188e14cf6751f6d03687db79 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fd390e5346e92760d98ca808d5f292871.mp4 bf113e7981c42640a50f5a2e54a92080 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tony Adaline Description An account of the resource An interview with Tony Adaline conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F943bf3b64bc6d74e596b733e8caba09e.JPG c476b8467e153b14d6cea7bbcc040f07 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F74b26e06751e61230844cf404b522e0c.mp4 450178788ef7cb79d4b24fa735ed2a84 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tony Brooks Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Tony Brooks on February 8th, 2017. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Tony about his experiences working at the Hanford Site and his lifetime in the health physics profession. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Tony Brooks: Antone Leavitt Brooks. A-N-T-O-N-E L-E-A-V-I-T-T B-R-O-O-K-S. Franklin: Great. And so let’s start at the beginning. Where and when—where were you born and when? Brooks: I was born in Saint George, Utah, which is the fallout capital of the world. Franklin: Is that—that’s southern? Brooks: Southern. Right as you’re going towards Las Vegas, it’s the last city in Utah before you leave, head out across the Nevada Desert. Franklin: And why is it the fallout capital of the world? Brooks: Because we shot off 103 atomic weapons aboveground at the Nevada Test Site. Normally, the weapons would be shot so that the fallout would go north across the Nevada, then turn and come east across Utah. There were a couple of shots that didn’t do that, that came right straight east to Saint George. And so we had some of the highest fallout levels recorded. When we were little kids, we’d be out playing basketball, and they’d say, hey, fallout cloud’s coming over, go in the house. Come on, you know? We’re playing ball here. [LAUGHTER] Or I’m up to bat next, I’m not going in the house. Franklin: So you had an early connection, then with— Brooks: Radiation. Franklin: With radiation and atomic testing and atomic production. Brooks: Right, right, right, right. Franklin: So how did you get involved in radiation testing and health physics? Brooks: Well, see, what I did then, when I went to University of Utah, got a bachelor’s degree there and then I got a master’s degree. And a guy named Robert Pendleton had just gotten a grant from the old Atomic Energy Commission to study the movement of fallout through the environment and into people. I did my master’s degree then following fallout. We set up a series of dairy farm stations. Each week we’d go and we’d sample the milk, we’d sample the grass, we’d sample the people, and count and watch the fallout move through the ecosystem into people. And so that was my master’s degree. Franklin: And what year was that? Brooks: In ’62. Franklin: ’62, okay. And then that— Brooks: They shot the last of the aboveground tests then. The atomic bomb ban—testing ban came in about then. But one of the last shots they shot was called Sedan. And Sedan was designed to see how big of a hole you could make with a nuclear weapon. So they buried it out in the desert, dug a serious hole with it. And the fallout came right over up across Salt Lake City. Franklin: Wow. Brooks: And so I was there, working on my master’s degree at that time. So we got a good dose of fallout from that also. Franklin: Wow. And does that kind of—I know that there were also those pathway-into-human experiments here at Hanford, as well. Does that kind of—does that mirror—is that around the same time? Brooks: Yes, yes, yeah. Franklin: Okay. Brooks: They used to have the old Hanford Symposiums up here, and we’d always come up and participate in those. Franklin: Oh really? Brooks: And so we knew the people here; they knew us. We were doing the same kind of work. In fact, the guy who was one of the big ones here, a guy named Leo Bustad and Roger McClellan, okay? Franklin: Yeah, we’ve interviewed Roger before. Brooks: Well, Roger was my boss. Franklin: Okay. Brooks: So when I got my master’s degree, I went on to Cornell University. It was everywhere, okay? Fallout was everywhere. It was in everything, it was on everything. My concern, then, was, are there health effects? Are there health effects? Are we causing damage? Are we all going to die of cancer? Okay? Franklin: Yeah. Brooks: That was a big concern. And at that time, we didn’t have a whole lot of data on internally deposited radioactive material. So I went to Cornell University and got my PhD there, studying chromosome damage. The chromosome is the most sensitive indicator of radiation-induced damage that we had at that time. You could look down the microscope and see the breaks and the rearrangements caused by the radiation. So that’s what I did my PhD. Then Roger McClellan hired me to go to the Lovelace Foundation, where he was the new director. I was one of the first two people he hired at Lovelace. So that’s how Roger and I got together. Franklin: Right, right. And what did you do at Lovelace? Brooks: Well, Lovelace—see, I wanted to continue my studies on internally deposited radioactive material, and that’s what they did. They had animals inhale, inject, ingest all kinds of radioactive material. So what I did was study the chromosome genetic damage as well as cancer induced in those animals. Franklin: Does that also kind of mirror—that mirrors some of the testing done at Hanford Labs and PNNL on— Brooks: Oh, sure, oh, sure, oh, sure. Franklin: --animal. First with the pigs and beagles— Brooks: See, they had a big dog program here, we had a big dog program at Lovelace. They had one at Utah, they had one at Argonne, they had one at—so they had all these programs that were well-coordinated, studying effects of radiation on animals. Franklin: So, were you all studying different areas of that— Brooks: Yeah. Franklin: --or kind of all studying the same, trying to work towards the cracking of the— Brooks: Each one—each laboratory had kind of an assignment. University of Utah, they inject—they started first. They injected the animals with radioactive material. Well, we don’t get injected much, so, University of California at Davis fed the animals radioactive material. Lovelace and Pacific Northwest Lab had the animals inhale it. Franklin: Okay. Brooks: And so the route of administration was different. But once it got inside, and once it went where it was going to go, then the effects were very similar. So there was a lot of coordination. Every year we’d have a meeting sometime—most—a lot of the times up here. They’d have the big Hanford Symposiums. I came up to those faithfully every year. And so the people up here were well-acquainted with the people down at Lovelace ITRI. Franklin: And what did you find as a result of— Brooks: Well, what I found primarily is that radiation is a very good cell killer. Okay? Radiation kills cells. That’s why we use it in therapy, right? Franklin: Right. Brooks: If you’ve got a cancer, what do you do? You radiate the sucker, right? Why do you do that? To kill the cells. The other thing I found was that radiation is very poor mutagen. I spent a lot of time trying to look at mutations induced by radiation. It kills too many cells. It’s not very good at mutating. See, about that time, another thing came along that hit here as well as there, and that was Jimmy Carter says, okay, national laboratories, we know a lot about radiation. But we don’t know anything about chemicals. So we’re going to assign each of the national laborites a chemical process for producing energy and let’s look at what that does. We were given diesel exhaust and fluidized coal combustion at Lovelace. Pacific Northwest Lab was given another—I don’t remember exactly what theirs was. I think it was something to do with coal. Okay? And so we went through and took all these techniques and technology we’d developed for radiation and applied them to chemicals. Man, there’s a lot of good mutagens in chemicals. Franklin: Yeah? Brooks: You better believe it. So you get all of these chemicals from burning, chemicals from—you know, I’d take petri dishes and I’d put a bunch of cells on them. I’d irradiate them. Could have put 100,000 cells, radiate them, there’d be 4,000 or 5,000 left to be mutated for radiation. Chemicals doesn’t kill them. It just mutates them. So you get benzopyrene and methylcanthrene, all these really hot environmental chemicals. And so I said, oh, jeez, radiation’s a poor mutagen. It is not a good mutagen. A lot of other things are really hot mutagens; it’s not. Franklin: And these chemicals were mostly from like carbon and fossil based—fossil fuels-- Brooks: Well— Franklin: --based applications? Brooks: Yeah, they were, but Lawrence Livermore Lab was given food, okay? Franklin: Okay. Brooks: Cooking hamburgers, folks. Overdoing—burning things. Franklin: Like, the carbon. Brooks: The carbon, right, and all the products there. There’s a lot of good stuff in there. And about that time, a guy named Bruce Ames developed what we called the Ames Test. The Ames Test was designed to test mutagens. And we all jumped into the Ames Test. Chemicals are really good at producing mutations in the Ames Test. Radiation didn’t produce any. Franklin: Interesting. That’s interesting because that kind of contradicts the cultural pop idea of radiation as causing massive genetic disorder or kind of positive disorders like superheroes, you know? Brooks: Right, right. Franklin: And stuff like that. But also negative like 50-foot ant, or you know. Brooks: We all know where the Incredible Hulk came from. We all know Ninja Turtles, we know where we got those. That’s all radiation, folks. That’s all radiation. But in reality, radiation is not a mutagen. Franklin: It just would have killed them. Brooks: Sure, sure. [LAUGHTER] It might have mutated them—see, there was a big, big project down at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. They called it the Megamouse Project. Now, Megamouse Project was designed to look at mutations induced by radiation. So they took a whole bunch of male mice, radiated them almost enough to kill them. Let them recover, irradiated them again almost enough to kill them, and then bred them. They had hundreds of thousands of offspring of mice from those. How many mutations? 17 extra. Franklin: Wow. Brooks: And so when we started setting standards, the International Council on Radiation Protection and the National Council on Radiation Protection. But when I was young, mutation and cancer were about deemed equal. But as the data came in, mutations kind of went away. Okay, so mutations kind of went away. Cancer was still a big concern. So that’s what I try to do, is take my mutagenesis assays, short-term assays, and link them to cancer induction. So I treat an animal, check through his chromosomes, check for the mutations, then look for cancer in them. And so we were trying to make those links so I could do a short-term test and do a prediction, say. But, again, the more I worked, and the harder I worked, the more I understood, radiation is not a very good carcinogen, either. Otherwise, when we radiate people to cure cancer, we’d make more cancer than we cure. We don’t. The people who are radiated are cured. Some additional cancers come up, but not many. Franklin: Right. Brooks: See, you look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki—it’s the thing I always like to talk about—is here we are—boom, you know? We drop two weapons, kill 200,000 people. Radiation’s a good killer. We had 86,000 people survive. We followed that 86,000 people for their lifetime. We know what each and every one of them died of. How many extra cancers did we see in that 86,000 people? 40,000 controls and 40,000 exposed. How many extra cancers? Had a great time, once, I was talking in a ninth grade class, telling them about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were all about asleep, you know? They weren’t too enthused about it. So I said, okay, here we got two populations. 40,000 exposed, 40,000 controls. How many extra cancers were there in the exposed? I whipped a dollar out of my wallet and said I’ll give the kid a dollar that comes the closest. You think every hand come up? Franklin: Yeah. Brooks: [LAUGHTER] Every hand came up, you know. So I start writing them on the board. Oh, everybody—everybody died of cancer. No, no, you get run over by a truck, you get—everybody doesn’t die of cancer. I started trying to talk them down, trying to talk them down. Well, half of them. Three-quarters, half, a quarter. Trying to talk them down. Couldn’t. Finally some wiseacre rises his hand in the back of the room and says, nobody got cancer. I handed him the dollar because he was way closer than anybody else. So in those two populations, 40,000 people—you got to remember that 25% of us die of cancer. Radiation, no radiation, nothing. That’s a given. About a fourth of us die of cancer. So in the 40,000 without radiation, about 10,000 cancers. That’s about what we expected, about 10,000 cancers. The radiated people, how many extra? That’s always the big question. About 500. So we had 10,000 in one population, 10,500 in the other. No question, radiation increased the cancer frequency. Franklin: But by a pretty small percentage. By—not—I think— Brooks: It’s not huge. Franklin: Yeah, not a huge— Brooks: It’s not huge. And most of the people who got the cancer were the ones in the close-in zones that just about got killed from the blast and the heat and the fires. Franklin: What about UV radiation and skin cancer? Brooks: Well, that’s a complete different story that I don’t have much expertise in. Franklin: Oh, sure. That’s like the only kind— Brooks: But—yeah—ultraviolet light causes DNA adducts that causes skin cancer. No question. You go out and sit in the sun—see, now, the other part of this story—the rest of the story—is that since I’m from southern Utah, I’m a Downwinder, just like a lot of the Downwinders here, okay? So if I get cancer, I get $50,000. No questions asked. I was actually invited to be the distinguished scientist one year at the Health Physics Society meeting. And I’d just gone in to have a bunch of skin cancers removed. I’m not blond. Saint George is a hot place, man. Skin—peel and burn, man, peel and burn. Over and over. So anyway I get a lot of little skin cancers, and I’d just gone in to the doctor to have those removed when I was given this award. And so I was there in front of the group. This guy, Dr. Toohey, Dick Toohey, who’s in charge of reimbursement, came up after my talk and says, hey, what you got there? Well, went to the doctor, had a bunch of skin cancers removed. Well, what kind were they? Well, I told them the kinds. Well, how many did you have? I told him, had three. He says, you know, if you get five, you get your $50k. Okay? [LAUGHTER] Two more skin cancers, I get my $50k. But what are the facts? Is there an epidemic of cancer in southern Utah where the fallout was where we’re getting paid? Utah has the lowest cancer instance in the nation. Southern Utah, where I live, the county where the biggest fallout was, has the second lowest cancer rate in the state. But we still get paid. So I go down there and give a talk and I say, oh, jeez, you know, if they didn’t cause it, why are they paying us? Why are they paying us? That’s a hard question to ask and answer. Because that’s what they ask. Why are they paying us? So what do you tell them? I tell them, well, you had a good senator. Senator Orrin Hatch got legislation through the Senate that said southern Utah had been abused. We had fallout, no question. We had exposures, no question. So, we decided to reimburse you. Well, how many get reimbursed? Can you reimburse everybody exposed to fallout? No. Russia set off a whole bunch of nuclear weapons. We set off a bunch of nuclear weapons. We contaminated the Northern Hemisphere. Brits, they were smart. They went down to Australia to set theirs off. They contaminated the Southern Hemisphere. So, we’ve all had it, okay? So we can’t reimburse everybody, can we? So how many are we going to reimburse? Well, you know, these four counties, this county in Nevada, this county in Arizona, 25% of us get cancer, that’s about right. The same way here at the Hanford Site, you know? Downwinders. People that worked at the Site. Military people. See, so they’ve set up all these programs to pay people off that were damaged. Franklin: Interesting. Brooks: [LAUGHTER] So I come at it from a little different position than— Franklin: Sure. Brooks: What I ended up doing—I’ve taken you through more than you probably ever wanted to know. Franklin: No, not at all. Brooks: But what happened, see, is after I left Lovelace, Roger McClellan left Lovelace, I left Lovelace. I came here and Bill Bair hired me to work out at Pacific Northwest Lab. Franklin: Right, and what year would this have been? Brooks: It was ’98. Franklin: Okay. Brooks: So—no, it wasn’t ’98. ’88. Excuse me. Franklin: That’s okay. Brooks: Anyway, I came here to work at the Pacific Northwest Lab. So I worked here for about ten years at PNNL. And I don’t know how much of that story you want to hear. Probably not too much, but— Franklin: Well, I’d love to hear about that. Brooks: But I worked at the cellular molecular biology group at Pacific Northwest National Lab. Franklin: Okay. And what did you do there? Similar to— Brooks: Well, similar. Spent a lot of time on radon. Franklin: Ah, the home radiation. Brooks: The home radiator. We had a big radon program at PNNL, and I was the head of that. Franklin: Doesn’t Spokane have really high levels of radon in the nation? Brooks: They do. They’re one of the high ones. The Reading Prong in the east, Spokane, several places have quite high radon. And so we did a lot of experimental work on radon. Again, trying to link cancer induction to [UNKNOWN] changes. So we’d have animals inhale radon, we’d look for the chromosome damage and all that. Then we’d try to look for the cancers in them. And a guy named Fred Cross—you probably have interviewed Fred Cross. You surely should have if you haven’t. Franklin: I think we—I think we might have. I’ll have to go back. Brooks: Anyway, because Fred Cross ran a great big radon program for exposure to animals of radon. So when I came here, I got talking to Fred and I says, hey, Fred. Rats get a lot of lung cancer when they inhale radon. But not one case of trachea or nasal cancer. You inhale it, it goes down your trachea, into your lungs. How come you don’t get tracheal cancer? You inhale—have hamsters inhale radon, you don’t get anything! Now are we humans more like rats or hamsters? [LAUGHTER] That was one of the questions, you know? Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Brooks: Are we rats or are we hamsters? So I went ahead and started studying that at the cell and molecular level. When I asked a guy named Tony James, said, hey, Tony, how come rats don’t get tracheal tumors? And he says, well, maybe the dose to the trachea—the amount of radiation to the trachea is very different than the deep lungs. You inhale it, maybe it goes and stays better, and maybe that’s what it is. And I says, well, can you help me with the dose? Well, you tell me the diameter of the trachea, you tell me the velocity of the airway, you tell me the particle size, you tell me the branching angles, you tell me this—I can tell you what the dose is. I says, crap, I can’t tell you all that. I’m a simple biologist. So I went ahead and looked at the cells and see what they tell me. So we have the animals radiate, inhale the radon, go in, look at their lungs, look at the trachea, look at the nose, see how much chromosome damage there is. Same all three places. Same amount of dose, no cancer nose or trachea, lots of lung cancer. Same amount of dose. Same amount of damage. Same number of mutations. Huh! So I look at the hamsters—Chinese hamsters, Syrian hamsters. Same thing. Same amount of dose, no cancer in hamsters. Lot of cancer. So I decided that maybe mutations aren’t that important. There are other processes going on besides that. And this was something that really—a lot of people did not like. Franklin: Why? Brooks: Because they always thought that mutations make cancer. You got a mutation that releases itself from its control, it goes ahead and it does this, this and this. Before long you have cancer. But, hey. Same number of mutations, no cancer. Franklin: So why, then, was the cancer—same level of dose, all three areas, same level of mutations, why was the cancer only happening in the lung? Brooks: Yeah, that’s a good question. And so, what happened then—and this is the last part of my career—is I left Pacific Northwest Lab and came to Washington State University. My office was down the hall about four places on the left down there. And when I left PNL, they were going into the molecular science center, and they closed down the radon program. So I had a couple million dollars’ worth of funding in radon, and they closed it down. Oh, Brooks, you don’t have any funding. No, I don’t, do I? So what are you going to do? Well, I’m going to try to write some grants to get some more funding. No, no, we don’t have time for that. So anyway, I changed positions over there from biology into risk assessment. And I knew that I wasn’t a risk assessor. So I spent my nights and weekends writing grants. I got a grant from NIH, National Institute of Health; I got a grant from the Department of Energy; I got a grant from NASA to study radiation in space, and to study cell and molecular changes. So I hit on three grants, so I came over here and says, hey, you know, I got some money. Is it all right if I come over here? What do you think they said? Oh, yeah, we’d love to have you. Franklin: Open arms? Brooks: Yeah, come on. As long as you realize that we’re not giving you any money. But you got your own money, come on. And that was wonderful, it was. It was really good. I came over here and as a result of getting the grant from DOE, then, they started what they called a Low Dose Radiation Research Project. And the Low Dose Radiation Research Project, Senator Pete Domenici out of New Mexico said, hey, we’re spending billions of dollars cleaning up waste, we’re spending billions of dollars on concern over medicine use. We’re concerned about nuclear weapons, we’re concerned about terrorists, but we don’t know much about low doses. We know what happens up here at this high dose region, where we really kicked the devil out of you, you get cancer. What about the low dose? Of course, at that time, we’d sequenced the genome, we had all of these new tools and techniques where we could go down and look. So DOE started what they called the Low Dose Program. They had what they called the Chief Scientist for the Low Dose Program, and I got that. So I sat here at Washington State University and ran the Low Dose Program out of Washington, DC with a lady named Noelle Metting. So, my job was the best in the world. My boss was in Washington, DC. I was here, sitting down the hall. And we helped them run this program where we had about $25 million a year. We distributed it to the very best scientists we could find anywhere in the world. We didn’t just limit it to US scientists. If you had an idea or a technique that was unique, we’d give you money. We gave money to Grey Lab in England where they had a microbeam where they could shoot individual cells. We gave money to the Australians where they were able to look at mutations in animals at very, very low levels. We gave money over in the Ukraine where they went over and studied a lot of the rodents after the Chernobyl fallout. And so we had all the very best—I thought—the very best cell and molecular biologists in the world studying the health effects of low doses. And my job, along with the lady named Leslie Couch, who worked here with me, was to run the program and to take the abstracts and take the information and put it in a kind of language that the lay people could maybe understand. We scientists, we don’t care. If I can talk to my two best friends, that’s all I care, you know. [LAUGHTER] I don’t care if the Rotary Club understands what I’m doing. But that’s one of the problems we’ve had. See, the public’s perception is way over here. The real world is way over there. And we as scientists have not done the job. We have not done the job. So that was my job here for about ten years, at Washington State. Franklin: So what did you find? Brooks: We found that the response of cells and molecules at low doses is very different than high doses. At high doses, you’ve got injury, you’ve got repair. At low doses, a whole different set of genes gets turned on, whole different processes are upregulated. But the wisdom of our political system killed the system, shut the program down. I retired and went to White Pass and ran a girls’ camp for a couple of years. And Bill Morgan came to Pacific Northwest Lab and took over at the Low Dose Program. Now, I don’t know if you’ve—Bill passed away last year. Huge loss. So Bill came and took over my job that I had as the chief scientist. And then I got running the website for them, see? And so they gave the website to Pacific Northwest Lab. So while I was running [LAUGHTER] a girls’ camp, plowing snow, which I did yesterday—went up and helped them. [LAUGHTER] Trying to keep the roads clean. Then Bill was running the website here for two years. It’s really interesting because the website really got quite popular. Because we were putting all the new information into it, and publications—lots and lots of publications on what happens at low doses and how different it is than high doses. Franklin: What constitutes a low dose? Brooks: Well, what you have to realize is that we live in a sea of radiation, okay? There’s a background amount of radiation that we all have. The higher in elevation you get, the more you get. If you live in Denver, you get way more than you do here. So what usually people do is say, well, here’s the background, and some value above that must be a low dose. [LAUGHTER] How fast you give it is the other thing, is how fast you get it. The body’s able to recover and repair. So if you give 100 rads or one gray all in one second, that does a lot more damage than if you give that over a year. Your body repairs and eliminates the bad cells. And that’s the other thing we found: a lot of protective processes that we didn’t realize existed. Franklin: You mean the body’s own protective processes. Brooks: Sure. The body has a built-in system, man. We’re being insulted by all kinds of things all the time, and, golly, we’re still alive. We should have been dead, see, if it wasn’t repairing. So anyway, I ran this Low Dose Program and then I went up to Camp Zarahemla. When I got there, I still had money left in my grant from the Department of Energy. Then I talked to Dr. Metting and I says, look, Noelle, I can send this money back to DOE if you’d like. Or you can let me keep it and I’ll write a book on the history of the program. And so the two years while I was at Camp Zarahemla, I spent every morning writing the history and so I compiled all of publications, put together the history, and got that all published just as I—all put together—just as I came out of there. And they made a website, put it on the website, so it’s been on the website for a while. But I couldn’t get her to publish it. And so, the bottom line on that is that DOE has finally given Pacific Northwest Lab some money to help me get that published. And Washington State University is publishing it. Franklin: Great. Brooks: And it’s supposed to be out in April. Franklin: Oh, wow, cool. Congratulations. Brooks: So anyway. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, that’s the history of the DOE Low Dose Program. That’s what I did at the very last of my career. Now, when I got back from Camp Zarahemla where we were running the girls’ camp, Bill Morgan says, you know, this is a lot more work than I thought it was going to be. Why don’t you come and help me? So Bill wrote a contract for me as a private—I set up a company and we—DOE says, well you can run it through PNL, or you can run it through Washington State, or you can set up a private company and run it there. They had a set amount of money that they were willing to give me. I thought, oh, PNL has an overhead rate of a little over 100%. Washington State has an overhead rate of about 40%. My company has no overhead rate. I think I’ll do it that way. [LAUGHTER] So anyway, Bill was very nice, and he helped me set up and get funded through PNL. So I worked, then, for PNL on the website for a number of years after I got back from camp. Then of course Bill passed away and the program there has gone down to where there’s not much left. So that’s where I am today. I still—PNL gave me some money to get the book published, so that’s very nice. And I work for EPRI, the Electric Power Research Institute, where they’ve been paying me some money to write some papers. I got a very nice paper published with two real good people, Julian Preston, who’s a geneticist and David Holm who’s an epidemiologist, where we looked at dose rate. See, now, how important is dose rate? Now, this is a big argument now, whether, if you give dose over a long period of time, it’s less effective than giving it all at once. All the data says that’s true. The Germans, on the other hand, have eliminated nuclear power, and they have decided that there is no benefit of protracting the radiation. Franklin: Of what? Brooks: Of protracting it, extending it out in time. In other words, if I give you one unit of radiation in one second, or if I give you one unit of radiation in ten years, the effect is the same. Does that make sense to you? Franklin: It doesn’t if the data doesn’t support it. Brooks: Well, the data doesn’t support it. Because every cell in your body is whacked when you give it all at once. You give it over time, the cells are turning over; any individual cell doesn’t see much. All he sees is a very low dose. He responds differently to that than he does this whack. Franklin: The whack turns on different— Brooks: Turns on a different set of genes, turns on a different set of processes. I’m trying to survive up here, okay? We found, for example, if you take—we developed a microbeam here at PNL—Les Braby did—where we could take and shoot individual cells with alpha particles. So we get under a microscope, get a bunch of kids that were good with video games, shoot that cell, and move, shoot this one, and shoot that one. We knew exactly which cells we’d shot. We knew exactly how many alpha particles we’d shot them with. Then we look at the response. That was what I was doing, looking at the response. It was really kind of neat, because you’d hit one cell, cell over here would responded. Of course! We’re talking to each other. We’re not a single cell. We don’t have eyes in our liver, you know. Come on. When we develop—and so, that was what we call the bystander effect. This is one of the things we found at the Low Dose Program. You hit one cell, the whole tissue responds. Franklin: Trying to prevent the damage, right? Brooks: Yeah, what does it do? It’s trying to prevent the damage. So if you hit one cell, it sends out messages: I’ve been hit! Help! What do the other cells do? Pew! Kill it. You’re out of here. It’s called apoptosis, or spontaneous programmed cell death. Franklin: You hit the whole tissue at once, then they all can’t respond. Brooks: Right, everybody’s damaged, folks. But if one cell gets hit, the whole tissue responds to try to save the tissue, not the cell. They’ll kill that cell. It’s called selective apoptosis, where you just eliminate that guy. And so there’s a lot of that—really fun. I just had a great time at it. Franklin: That’s great. Did you ever find out why the rat lungs were prone to cancers, whereas the esophagus and the trachea were not? Brooks: Well, you know, the thing that we found in the Low Dose Program was the cell communication. The cells in the trachea and esophagus are nicely arranged in nice little columns. And the communication is very nice between them. In the lung, you get this thing spread out. You kill a cell over here, you stimulate another over there, you do this, this, that. Very different project. And so I think that what’s happening is that the cells that are able to maintain communication, maintain structure—if you have an inflammatory disease, okay, esophageal reflex. What do you get? You get esophageal cancer. No radiation, no mutations. Inflammatory disease. So any time you get tissue disorganization, inflammation. We did that with the lungs. We’d have these animals inhale radioactive material. If you gave them enough, you’d kill them. They’d die, pneumonitis, fibrosis, the lungs would fill up with water and they’d die. If you give them a little less than that so they didn’t die of that, almost every one of them got cancer—lung cancer. If you go down a little lower, but still an awful lot, but protracted over a long period of time, almost nothing. Franklin: And why did the Syrian or Chinese hamsters not get the lung cancer when they were exposed to the same amount? Brooks: Well, that’s what we call genetic variability, okay? You and I are different. You and I are different. Every one of us has our own genetic difference. As you looked into these animals, they had different pathways. They have different ways to repair. They’re different. Franklin: Sure, sure. Brooks: If you look at the human population, we’ve got sensitive people, we’ve got resistant people. I think the sensitive people are more like rats and the resistant ones more like the hamsters. That’s one of the things that we’re starting to unravel. What are the pathways and what are the ones that are important? That’s when the program was killed. And so that’s one of the things I’m pushing really hard and working with a lot of people now to see if we can get money back into that program. It’s really a critical thing. Franklin: Sure. I believe you. I mean, it sounds like understanding—because we all live with low dose and varying amounts of low dose. Brooks: That’s right. Franklin: And especially as we don’t have that kind of constant testing of radiation anymore, we might get exposed to different variabilities, right? Brooks: Right, right. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could talk about the consequences of that. Because I’ve heard a little bit about it, of the loss of the generations that kind of ingested the radiation from atomic weapons testing. Do you know what I’m talking about? Brooks: Not for sure. Franklin: That there was ways to kind of track where people were, based on the amount of material in their cells that they had ingested from the atomic weapons testing, and that now there’s a generation that has grown up since the ban and doesn’t have those kind of genetic markers anymore. Brooks: No. Yeah, I don’t know. I think, of course, once you take the radiation—and we’re very, very good at detecting radiation. That’s one of the things that we’re really good at. And that really impressed me when I went from working with radiation to working with hot chemicals. Radiation—if I spill something—I knew right where it was. Chemical, I spill something, I don’t know where it was. So we’re so good at testing and detecting. My generation, I can go in and get counted today, and they’d tell me how much strontium I’ve still got in my bones. I had thyroid. We counted people all over the state of Utah that had fairly significant amounts of radiation in them. Chernobyl, Fukushima. Lots and lots and lots and lots of people have ingested lots and lots and lots of radiation. And so it’s not a mystery box anymore. The mystery box is the fact that it hasn’t been very effective. And I’ve just been really grateful for that. Because when I was growing up, I thought, oh, crap, you know? We’re going to have a cancer epidemic in southern Utah the likes of which you’ve never seen before. It didn’t develop. Chernobyl, we went over there and set up a study. Guy named Admiral Zumwalt was a Navy admiral. He knew the Navy admirals over in Russia. So we got all of us together and set up a big study to study Chernobyl. We had each of the Russian countries matched with the United States group. We had Ukraine and Belarus and Russia, all matched with Fred Hutch, one group, Texas, another group, Boston, another group. So we got all our best people, matched them with theirs, to go over and look at that. Chernobyl had just happened. We wanted to find out, again, are we going to have terrible cancer epidemic in Russia? And now it’s been 20-plus years, 30 years, after Chernobyl, huh? 20-something years. Franklin: 30. A little more than 30, because it was 1986, right? Brooks: Right. Franklin: April of ’86. Brooks: So, ’86, I was still a youngster. Anyway, I was sitting on this committee. Been sitting on it for years. When we started, our prediction was that we were really going to have some serious problems with cancer, especially leukemia—especially childhood leukemia. And thyroid. See, the Russians didn’t need people telling people in Pripyat that they had a problem for several days. So they were there sucking in the iodine-131—thyroid getting really kicked. So all of our models, all of that, said, boy, we have a serious problem here. The longer we did it, the more measurements we made, the longer we followed it up—where are the cancers? Where are the cancers? Zero excess solid cancers, with exception of cancer of the thyroid of children. Huge increase in cancer of the thyroid in children. Franklin: And is that a result of the radioactive iodine? Brooks: It is the radioactive iodine, very high doses. Franklin: And we’re talking about people in the surrounding area, not talking about the responders. Brooks: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The responders, they got zinged. They got zinged. We killed a bunch of them. You know, the Russians, they had a very different philosophy than what we have. It’s like me having a great big bonfire here and saying, why don’t you go stand in the middle of that bonfire? You know, I’d rather not. They knew how hot that was. They knew going in there was going to be lethal. But they sent them in. See, we wouldn’t have done that. Okay? But, yeah, first responders— Franklin: So why the children and not adult—if they were all in the same environment, why the children and not the adult? Brooks: That’s really a good question. Why the children and not the adults? Children thyroids are developing. There’s lots of cell division in there. There’s lots of opportunities for things to go wrong. Adult thyroids are just sitting there, doing their thing. Almost no cell proliferation, almost no cell division, no differentiation. They’re just sitting there. Now, you take the liver, which just sits there—I did a lot of work on liver. Liver cells, you can radiate the devil out of them as long as you don’t make them divide, they seem to be fine. But you stimulate them to divide—I could go in and flop out part of the liver, make the liver divide, up come the cancer. So there’s a lot of processes, but the children’s thyroids were sensitive. Franklin: And it’s the—so then is the cancer then carried in the division? Is that how it multiplies? [INAUDIBLE] establishing a link-- Brooks: Either that—carried or expressed. Franklin: Carried or expressed, okay. So does the action of division make it—the cells more likely to turn cancerous? Or do we still— Brooks: Well, cell tissues that have more rapid cell division have more cancer in them. Franklin: Sure. Brooks: Bone marrow, GI tract, lung. Franklin: Skin? Brooks: Skin, yeah, skin. But you look at the liver, almost never divides. Radiation doesn’t produce much in the way of brain cancer—cells don’t divide. Muscles, nothing. Bone marrow, gut, skin—all of those dividing—rapidly dividing cells. If the exposure is given acutely. Franklin: Okay. Brooks: But if it’s protracted in time, it’s very different. Franklin: Interesting. Brooks: Because the cells are dividing, and one cell gets hit, its great-grandson maybe get hit. But if you get them all at once, and they have to all divide, and they have to all survive, and they have to all repopulate, that’s where it comes. Franklin: Gotcha. Well, thank you, Tony. Brooks: Well, that’s probably more than you ever wanted to hear. Franklin: No, I think it’s really instructive. And it definitely complicates—complicates our idea of how radiation affects the body, but clarifies and I think kind of dispels some of the misinformation and myths that surround— Brooks: Yeah, fear is a really important part of this whole thing. We had a meeting up at Leavenworth where we brought in scientists from around the world and spent a week up there, trying to decide and discuss what we could do about the fear of radiation. We had a guy from Argentina, we had a guy from Germany, we had a guy from Australia, we had three of us from the United States, and we spent a week up there. It’s really difficult to decide what makes people so afraid of anything. I’m afraid of snakes. Okay. You can tell me that snake’s not going to bite me, but don’t put it on me. Franklin: Sure. Brooks: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well it’s tough, right, because fear is a natural human response to keep us alive. It’s a safety feature. Yeah, fear of the unknown. Tony, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to mention in the interview? Brooks: Well, I don’t know, other than it has been really an exciting career for me. Franklin: Great. Brooks: We’ve had a wonderful time, got to do a lot of interesting things, meet a lot of interesting people. I can say the main thing that I’d like to be able to help with is to help people know that if you go in and the doctor says you need a CT scan, take it. The radiation dose from a CT scan is so low that you don’t worry about it. If you need an x-ray, take it. If the dentist wants to look at your teeth, take it. Because the risks are so very small. Franklin: And that radiation doesn’t automatically cause cancer. Brooks: Right. Franklin: It depends on the time of the dose and the amount of— Brooks: Right. And, see, that’s the public perception, that if I get radiated, I will get cancer. If I get cancer, the radiation caused it. And that’s a hard perception to break, because it’s absolutely not true. Franklin: Sure, okay. Well, great, thank you so much, Tony. I really appreciated the interview. Brooks: It’s been fun, I can say. Franklin: Well, I’m glad we could get this for—and that Parker didn’t have one with you—Parker Foundation. So I’m kind of glad that we could kind of get you in with all those other voices about radiation and health safety. Because you have a lot of—a lot of what you said was really instructive. And you said it so easily that—you know, I’m a historian, an archivist. I’m not a radiation expert. I know I’ve been working on this project about some of the basics, but it was very easy to understand. And so you spent your life dedicated to that; you’re a trustworthy source. Brooks: Well, that’s right. I’ve invested my life, basically, trying to do that. And I started off scared to death of it. Okay? Franklin: Yeah. Brooks: And the more I worked and the more I’ve studied and the more I’ve seen, all the way from the animals to the humans to the tissue to the cells to the molecules, everything tells the same story. Franklin: Yeah. Great, well, thanks so much. Brooks: Hey, thank you, man. Franklin: Yeah, thank you. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data mp4 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:52:33 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1988-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1988-1998 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Leo Bustad Roger McClellan Fred Cross Pete Domenici Noelle Metting Leslie Couch Bill Morgan Les Braby Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tony Brooks Description An account of the resource An interview with Tony Brooks conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 02-08-2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-13-11: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Adult Atomic Energy Commission Cancer Children Cook Department of Energy Desert Hanford Livermore NASA Park https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fcfcebe345921d062fc38562de1cbefbb.JPG e6ce36cb30b9f1e09252def218218e87 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F778869c15a7f92f5091d0594692c20a2.mp4 f38c1e4976ea1b7344a9ce14b66e8ae5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vanessa Moore Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Vanessa Moore on May 11th, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Vanessa about her experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Vanessa Moore: Sure. My full name is Vanessa Bernetta Mitchell Moore, I guess. That’s with the married name. So, V-A-N-E-S-S-A, B-E-R-N-E-T-T-A, maiden name M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L, married name, M-O-O-R-E. Franklin: Great. And Vanessa, when and where were you born? Moore: I was born in Richland. And December—well, December 2nd of 1956 is my birthdate. Franklin: December 2nd 1956. And how did you or your family first come to Richland? Moore: They came to Richland in the ‘50s, I believe, as a family. We came as a family. My parents and a couple of older brothers. But originally, my father and mother both were born in Kildare, Texas. They actually lived, basically, next-door to one another. So they grew up there. My father first came out here, I believe he told me 1947 as a single teenager. He was following a couple of uncles of his. It was William Daniels and Vanis Daniels, Senior. So he came up and was here, I think, briefly at first. Now, I may not be 100% accurate because it’s second-hand, but he was here for a while with them, went back to Texas and got married. And then he went briefly to I think it was Chicago, because his older brother, William Mitchell, was in Chicago. So he was there for a bit. And I don’t know if my oldest brother was born there or before they went. But anyway, it was in the early ‘50s that Mom and Dad came to, I think, Hermiston, maybe, first, and then they lived in Pasco when the three oldest children were born. I’m number four, and I was born in Richland. I can’t remember if Nestor was born in Richland or Pasco. But we lived down on the south end of Richland—what I call the south end. I don’t think they call it that anymore, down near Aaron Drive and Winco. Franklin: Right, the south of old—you know. Moore: Right, old Richland. Franklin: Before the river. Moore: Right, that used to be called south Richland. So we lived on, I think it was Craighill. 100 Craighill Street, that’s where I was born—or where I lived when I was born. Franklin: What first brought your father and his uncles, your great-uncles, to Hanford? Moore: Opportunity for work and to make more money. The way I understood it, wages were low and they were in southeast Texas, and people either farmed—my mother’s family farmed. My father’s was a single mom household because Grandpa had gotten killed when Dad was young. So I think she did domestic work, and he as a teenager did some work at the sawmill or something here and there. But the opportunity to come and make more money in construction, I think it was, because I know Dad worked on McNary Dam and what we call the Blue Bridge in Pasco, and some other construction-type work. As I said, part of the time, they lived in Hermiston and then also in Pasco. Dad was a, I think a chem tech for General Electric in the early days. Franklin: A chem tech? Moore: Mm-hmm. Franklin: What—do you know anything about that? Moore: Because I know he took chemistry. He would always go to school. So we were little kids, and he was working, but I remember him taking a lot of night classes at CBC. He was a—I guess they worked in the chemistry labs or something, the chem techs. We have them still now at PNNL now. So that was one of the things he did before he got into what they called personnel back then instead of human resources. Franklin: What was your father’s educational level? Moore: He had graduated, I think, top in the class or high in the class in high school, Perfection High in Kildare, Texas, I remember that. At the age of 17, because he would tell me—or 16 or 17. Then, as I said, when we were young, he took a lot of night classes at CBC and I think he got his associate’s degree at some point. My older brother may have more accurate information, but I believe he did. And he would be studying, like, he’d work shift work. So sometimes he was off during the day, and some of the little ones who were still home, we’d go fishing with him or something, but when it was time to study, he’d just say, hit the road. [LAUGHTER] We knew what that meant. And he said—one time he told me, he said, I want to stay ahead of you, of all you kids, so that I can help you with your school work. And he insisted we all had to take chemistry. I didn’t do that well in it; I think I got a B. But it wasn’t my favorite class. And you know, like, math and all those different things. Or he was taking some sort of course to learn to do something, like small appliance repair courses and things like that. So he could make a little extra money, or save a little extra money. Either one. Franklin: The way I understand it, there was a large extended family migration from Kildare up to Pasco and Richland. What other—what were some of your other relatives that came up from Kildare? Moore: As I said, the Daniels. So, my great-uncles, Uncle Willy and Uncle Vanis, and then Edmond Richmond, I didn’t know we were related until some of these projects started but he also—they called him Shorty--I knew of him all my life. And Sparks is another family name, Groves. Trying to think of some others. Brown. I know that his name is Primmer Brown, and his wife, Suzanne, is somehow related to my mother. So there were the Browns and the Miles, because she had two or three sisters whose families were also here, so. The older I got, the more family I met. So it’s quite a few. Franklin: What was your mother’s name? Moore: Her maiden name was Castleberry. Franklin: Castleberry. And what was her first name? Moore: Bernice. Franklin: Bernice Castleberry. Moore: She worked out in the so-called Area at one point, also. Franklin: What did she do out there? Moore: She was—they had a differentiation between secretaries and clerks, and I think that she was considered a clerk. She started in a time—let’s see, my youngest brother was just going to school. So she was a stay-at-home mom until the sixth child was like in kindergarten. And there was a program, I don’t know whether it was Battelle or GE at that time, but where they were trying to increase the number of women and I think minorities in particular—I could be wrong, but I think so—into the workforce. So you might think of it as like a steno pool, or the secretarial pool. Quite a few ladies came to work at that time. Before that, maybe they were doing domestic work or stay-at-home moms or doing other things. But it was an opportunity to learn while you worked, you were paid while you learn, and then you would be sent out on assignments. So I remember her taking speed writing and typing and different things. So you may have an assignment to fill-in for someone who’s on vacation, and eventually have an opportunity to have a full-time position yourself. So I know she and several other ladies that I’m familiar with did that and worked until retirement. Unfortunately, Mom had to retire early for medical reasons. But Opal Andrews, I think, is another individual that you were going to interview. She did that. She’s in the Miles family, so she would be CW Brown’s first cousin, I guess. Franklin: Oh, okay. Moore: Yeah. And I think she last worked for Westinghouse or DoE. So I’m hoping she will eventually come sit with you. Franklin: Yeah, me, too. You mentioned, you have five siblings, right? So six of you total. Moore: Yes. Franklin: Duke, Greg— Moore: Nestor. Franklin: Nestor. Moore: Cameron. Franklin: Cameron. Moore: Robin. Franklin: Robin. And you’re fourth? Moore: I’m in between Cameron and Robin. So Duke’s name is actually David. Franklin: David. Moore: So David Mitchell, Gregory Mitchell, Nestor, Vanessa, Cameron, and Robin. Franklin: Okay, thanks. [LAUGHTER] Moore: But some people say there’s no girls in that family, so. All my life it was, what? There are no girls in that family! Franklin: And how did that make you feel? Moore: It was all right. [LAUGHTER] I said, well, there must be, because I’m here. Franklin: What else do you know about your parents’ lives before they came to Washington? Moore: On my mother’s side, I know that Grandpa had about 150 acres that they farmed, because he was able to participate in the, I think, forty acre and a mule program. So he had an opportunity to get that going. My mom had, I don’t know, five or six siblings. So they raised what they ate and they had some animals, and mom would say, people thought we were rich. And she’s like, huh? They’re just making a living. But they would help others around them maybe who didn’t have as much. Maybe it’s time to kill a hog or something, you know, how families would get together and share whatever, share the work and share the benefit. So I think they worked hard and school was always very important. Mom and Dad went to the same little one-room schoolhouse in Kildare. I’ve been there a few times. It’s very small. It’s still very small. It’s kind of like a cross in the road, it seemed like an intersection for the city, when we were little, although there were homes around there. And it’s in southeast Texas where it’s very humid, so we’d go in the summer and that wasn’t that much fun. But, like I said, my father’s father was killed, I believe in a railroad accident. We were always told that he was hit by a train. But I don’t know if they were certain of that, or if it was just because of the circumstances of where his body was near the train tracks, they assumed. So there’s still some stories around what happened there. So my father as a young person had to kind of assume the father role. I know his younger sister, Emma, who lives here also, she followed him up and is still here, that he was more like a father to her because Grandpa had been killed so early and Grandma just had to work really hard to try to make ends meet. So I think his life was a lot harder there than here. He and Mom, from what I’ve been told, were like high school sweethearts because my aunts, my mom’s sisters were always saying, oh, he just loved Bernice. CJ and Bernice. So. They were like 18, 19 when they got married. Franklin: Oh, okay, wow. Did either your father or mother ever talk about their first impressions when they came here? Because it’s such a different environment from east Texas. Moore: When we asked them about it in our latter years, you know, as we were older, they would talk about it. I don’t recall them talking a lot about it when we were growing up, except the way they did things. Because my mom, having grown up on a farm, she still had ways she did things, from carrying on from the farm to the house to the yard, the way you work and when you work. Franklin: Do you have any examples? Moore: Their work ethic, I think, was good. Let me try. Some of the remedies and things that my mother would come up with. She would make us drink cod liver oil. Like once a year, she would get about a quarter of a cup of orange juice and stir a tablespoon of cod liver oil in it really fast and say, drink this. Franklin: My grandmom, when I was young, made me do the same thing. Moore: Yeah, and those were things— Franklin: She grew up on a farm in the Depression, and yeah, I don’t-- Moore: I don’t—it was supposed to keep you healthy, I guess. Franklin: Well, you’re still here! Moore: And she would talk about people eating a little bit of sulfur to keep bugs from biting them. We never did it, but that was something they did there, where they would put—and I remember seeing this once when we visited and I was a child—they would take powdered lime and put it in a ring around the house to keep critters from crawling in. Have you ever heard of that? Franklin: I have, actually. Moore: I think that’s what it was for. Franklin: That can still be done today. You can get that bituminous earth that you can line your house and it’s sharp and pointy and any bugs that try to crawl over it get all shredded up. Moore: Oh, okay. Franklin: So they don’t—but it’s harmless to people and animals. Moore: Sure. So that was one thing she would do. She talked about Grandma, when it was time to like kill chickens, bring in the chickens and axe and how you did all of that. And using the lye to clean all of the stuff off like a pig or something, if you’re getting ready to butcher animals. I remember visiting in--it was in the ‘60s, so I don’t remember how old I was--but I was amazed that my grandmother was so strong. They didn’t have indoor plumbing, so you’d have to go to the outhouse in the cow pasture. [LAUGHTER] That’s where the outhouse was. But all the boys, all my brothers, had these Levi jeans. You know, in the old days jeans were really thick and heavy. She would just wash them and wring them out like this, these arms. I thought, wow, Grandma! Grandma knows what she’s doing. And she had this habit of—I shouldn’t put this on tape—snuff. You know what snuff is? Franklin: Yeah, the powdered tobacco. Moore: Yeah, she always had some right here. And she’d have a little can that she carried around with her. And I know Grandma couldn’t read and write. My mom would—she made an X and then other people would sign for her. My mother used to tell me how she spent a lot of time with her dad, helping him get ready for his preaching. He was sort of like a—even though he was a farmer, he was also like a circuit preacher. So she said, I’d run Bible verses with him. So she would help him, or she would read things to my grandmother if she needed that. Franklin: Did he know how to read? Moore: Yeah. Oh, Grandpa did, yeah. Franklin: Oh, great, your grandfather did. Moore: My grandfather did, yeah. But Grandma, she did not. It seemed like a time where she had to take care of everything at the home, in the house. Making sure there were meals there when people came in from the field, because you had to eat and get back to work. By the time—Mom would say she would get everything ready for everybody else, but she never had time for herself. So I always thought that was kind of sad. I felt bad, because Grandma didn’t get a chance to do some things other people got to do. She would make their clothes. My mom would tell me stories of—I think she had four sisters, Robbie, Dessie, Marjorie—about four. She’d get bolts of material like every year, say, okay, we’ll go to the store, I’ll buy five bolts of material. You guys tell me what you want. They’d look at the Sears catalogue or whatever and say, I want the sleeves from this dress and I want the bodice from this dress, and Grandma would make them. I thought that was amazing, too. Franklin: Wow. Moore: How do you do all these things? They’re like wonder women back in those days! So, anyway, that’s kind of a side story. Franklin: No, that’s really wonderful. It’s nice to kind of set the—you know, inform people what life was like in the South and the kind of conditions that people left. Did your grandmother, did she stay in Kildare her whole life? Moore: She and Grandpa would come up here during the off-season from farming, because my grandfather would work at Hanford to make extra money so that he could pay his farm off faster. Franklin: And that was your mother’s father, or your--? Moore: Yes, my mother’s father. Franklin: And what was his name? Moore: David Castleberry, my oldest brother is named after him. Franklin: Oh, okay. Moore: So it was David and Rilland. Grandma’s name was Rilland, R-I-L-L-A-N-D. Franklin: That’s an interesting— Moore: Interesting. Franklin: I can’t say I’ve ever heard that name. Moore: I know! But it’s kind of an interesting story that later on in my life, I found out that my husband’s grandmother and my grandmother actually were neighbors. When Grandma was living here when she’d come up to visit, they lived in houses that were back-to-back. Here, what, I don’t know how many years later, their grandchildren end up marrying each other. To me, that’s just amazing! Franklin: Yeah, that is amazing. Wow. So you’re talking about your grandparents and then your husband’s. Moore: Right, my mother’s parents and my father-in-law’s mom. My husband’s grandmother. Franklin: Your husband’s grandmother. And what was her name again? Moore: Her name was Campbell. Franklin: Right, the last name was Campbell. Okay. Moore: Yeah, I don’t remember her first name. I think they called her Mama or something like that. But Grandma Campbell. Franklin: What did David Castleberry do at Hanford? Was he just a general laborer? Moore: That I don’t know. I imagine. I don’t know. Vanis might know. Franklin: He knows a lot of things, that Vanis. Moore: He’s enough older than me that he would know, kind of the in-between generation. Franklin: Sure. He just also seems to soak up all of that lore. So for yourself, growing up in Richland, how many other black families were there in Richland when you were coming of age? Moore: I can think of a couple. The Rockamores, the Wallaces, the Browns. I guess more than a couple. And a family named Shirley, Calvin Shirley, I think is the son’s name. Oh, and I think Fred Baker. My dad had a friend named Fred Baker, and they were here. So there were a few. When I was in grade school, sometimes there wouldn’t be anybody else in the school except for me and a cousin, or me and a brother, that type of thing. So it’s not—it certainly wasn’t like it is now; it was very rare. You’re probably going to be the only black face in the school class picture back then. And everyone pretty much knew the other families, I guess, because the parents knew each other. Maybe they would socialize or maybe they were related or worked in the same area. Franklin: How would you describe life in the community? Moore: Well, to me it was normal. You play with the kids on the block, and we went to school together. I’d get some odd questions sometime. Franklin: Like what? Moore: Like, is that your real hair? Or, if someone touched you, would it rub off? Franklin: Are these questions from kids or from adults? Moore: From kids. From kids. And then as I got older, there’d be name-calling here and there. Franklin: Like racial name-calling? Moore: Yeah. Not real harsh, maybe like Oreo or Tootsie Roll, or something like that, the type of thing a kid would say. I remember one time I was at Jefferson School, and I think I was in fifth or sixth grade, and my brother, Bill Mitchell—excuse me, not brother—my first cousin, Bill Mitchell, he and I were actually in the same class, and I want to say my younger brother Cameron was there, Nestor was already out and Robbie was too young. So there was like probably three of us in the whole school. I was always a good student, always thought of as the leader. You know, you put kids in groups and the teacher would always say, you’re going to be the leader in this. Or if you have to pick the leader, they’d say, well, why don’t you do it?—the other kids. So, I think one thing I noticed is that the teacher would remember my name by the first day. Because you’re the only person who looks like you, and my name is a little unusual so maybe that had something to do with it. But you know what I’m saying? It’s easier to associate and remember that person because they look different than everybody else. I had positive experiences for the most part, but I remember one time a boy saying something, calling me a name and another boy who heard it said, you better not say that; her brother’s going to beat you up. And I thought, Cameron? He’s not going to beat anybody up. But I think my brothers’ experiences—I know their experiences were different than mine. And I know my parents protected me a little bit. Like when we got older, I couldn’t go to, say, a basketball game in Pasco just with my friends. My brother had to be there. Part of it was the Pasco/Richland rivalry, but part of it, too, was, we don’t want you to be there by yourself. Or wherever it was. Just to be careful. So I know it was there. I learned some things sort of after the fact or by figuring things out. For instance, we were looking for a house. We first started on the south end and then, I think I was going into third grade, and we moved to what’s called Richland Village, which you would not know what that is. But these houses like Newcomer Street, just south of here, like the other side of Spangler, the older ones that kind of all look alike, that was called Richland Village. Those were the government homes that you couldn’t buy them at some point. The ability to buy them came about when I was a child. I don’t know exactly when, but my parents bought a house in there. But we had looked somewhere else and everybody liked the house and we didn’t get it. Found out later that, well, no, they weren’t going to sell that house to us. That was in Richland also. And my father became a realtor later on after—well, maybe right before he retired and continued on. So seeing some of the documents that realtors work with opened his eyes about some other things, too. Franklin: Right, the covenants. Moore: Redlining and the covenants and things like that. But anyway, he knew those things. I remember Dad saying he moved to Richland to be closer to work and also to move us to where we would have maybe a different experience. Franklin: Different from what? Moore: Because originally most everyone was in east Pasco because that’s where you could be. And so was he. But the community, maybe, was a little smaller and more—not close-knit, that’s not the word I mean, but isolated, maybe? Separated? So we would go over, a lot of times, Sunday after church, Mom and—I don’t know if my dad went so much, but you’d visit. That’s what people did after church, is they’d go visit friends and family. So we’d go to Pasco and visit with a lot of people that she knew or was related to. And Mom and Dad would, sometimes both, and the kids would play and that kind of thing. But I don’t know, he just wanted to reach out and branch out and do some other things. I thought it was interesting. Franklin: Yeah. Moore: Can’t tell you all the reasons why. But it was deliberate. Franklin: I mean, I guess in hindsight it’s easy to—or you can kind of understand. It seems like more opportunity maybe, a better chance for—because east Pasco was physically separated from the rest of Pasco by the railroad tracks, by the underpass, but always had that reputation that followed it and its citizens, undeservedly, but it certainly was—might be fair to say that less was expected from people in east Pasco than would have been from people from elsewhere. Moore: I don’t know, that could be. And then you may spend a lot of time reminiscing in the way we used to do things and where we came from, instead of moving forward to new experiences. Franklin: Yeah. Moore: And I think he liked to see what was new and try it out, and wanted the kids to get involved in different things, so. Franklin: Yeah. What did you do in your spare time? Moore: What do I do in my spare time? Franklin: Yeah. Moore: Like right now? Franklin: No. Moore: Back then? When I was a kid? Franklin: Yeah. Moore: Oh, gosh. It was always, go outside and play. [LAUGHTER] There were no video games, and there weren’t places to go and hang out and that sort of thing. So you spent time either with your siblings or with your friends or by yourself, just coming up with things to do, exploring the outdoors. I didn’t get involved, really, in sports, like the boys did. I liked to run and chase with my friends and ride bikes and things like that, but not really organized sports too much. Seems like there wasn’t a lot of spare time. Really when you think about it, school and church and chores and—[LAUGHTER] We lived in a two-bedroom prefab with eight people when I was small. [LAUGHTER] You just didn’t—you’re trying to picture that, right? Franklin: I lived in a two-bedroom prefab for about a year—a little more than a year, actually. Moore: Did you? Franklin: Yeah. So I’m really trying to— Moore: [LAUGHTER] Franklin: It felt small for two people, honestly. Moore: Oh, yeah. I don’t know how we did it. I slept in the living room. Mom and Dad had a room; the youngest child was in a bassinet in their room. And then four other boys had two bunk beds in the other room. I do remember my dad busting a hole in the back and putting a backdoor in so you could get out the back. Yeah. So, just—I don’t know. You’d go to the park, you’d go fishing with family. That kind of thing. Franklin: Do you remember any particular community events, either here or in east Pasco? Moore: I remember picnics. Like after church picnics. One was—I don’t know if it was a regular event, but everybody went to Sacajawea Park and we’d take all kinds of food and just spend the day. I do remember that. And then in my early married days, the Juneteenth celebrations that go on in Pasco every June, those seemed to become more and more regular. Other than that, I don’t recall. Franklin: What can you tell me about Juneteenth? What’s its importance to the black community? Moore: It has to do with the Emancipation and when the news of Emancipation made it to the community in Texas, and people realized we’re free. So it’s a celebration of that. Franklin: What does that mean to you? Moore: Juneteenth? Franklin: Yeah. Moore: Well, a tradition. Right now, it means a tradition to me. It’s an opportunity to inform people of history, remind others of history, and to appreciate what your ancestors went through and did for you in order for you to be who you are and where you are. That’s what it is for me. Franklin: You mentioned attending church. Which church did you attend? Moore: As a child, I grew up going to Richland Baptist Church here on George Washington Way. That’s where I was baptized when I was nine. But Mom and Dad would also take us to Morning Star Baptist Church in Pasco. I think before they moved to Richland, they attended either there or New Hope Missionary Baptist Church, which—before my mother passed away, I know she had started going back to that church. I came to find out that it’s like a sister church to a church in Kildare. So that’s one thing that I’ve realized as a child that people did the things they did because they brought it with them. The style of church, the fact that you’re there all afternoon. Because they were farmers. So when you would go to town to go to church, it’s too long a trip to just go and come back. Like, you and I, we can go and go home and get home in five minutes. But it came an event in itself, a social event as well as your worship. When you finished, you would stay and socialize. Franklin: Right, because it would also—back in the day, it would have been hard to socialize given that people were so—farming communities were so spread out. Moore: Right, so now we’re all here, bring a pound cake. Some of the food traditions are because of that. Franklin: What other food traditions did people bring? Moore: Oh, pound cake, greens—I never liked chitlins, never had them, but—just some of those traditions. I asked my mom about it once. I said, why didn’t you ever make those? She goes, because I don’t like them. [LAUGHTER] And they don’t smell good. But anyway, I think the barbecues you see, some of the things that happen at Juneteenth, people will come in and they’re making their special form of barbecue, or their cakes and jams and pies, whatever it is. Those were traditional to them. Sweet potato pie, that’s one of my favorite ones. And I’m perfecting my recipe. Franklin: Awesome, I’d like to try it sometime. Moore: Yeah, I’ll let you try it. It’s pretty popular. Franklin: I don’t think I’ve ever had sweet potato pie. Moore: No? Franklin: No. Moore: Oh, you’d like it. Franklin: It’s never been a tradition in my— Moore: I had never had pumpkin pie until—I didn’t know—when I did have it, I thought, ehh, I don’t know. Do you like candied yams? Franklin: Love them. Moore: Then you’d like sweet potato pie better. Franklin: My family’s a big rhubarb family because in Alaska that’s what grows. Moore: Oh, really? Franklin: Rhubarb and strawberries. So strawberry rhubarb pie is just like— Moore: I’ve heard it’s good. Franklin: Oh, man, nothing beats my mom’s strawberry rhubarb pie. Moore: Oh, okay. I’ll have to try that. So some of the things you start to see, the traditions, the way, like I said, the style of a church service or the picnics. Even the reunions now that have grown up. My family has a reunion that’s been going on for I don’t know how many years, the Daniels-Cole reunion. It’s every-other-year, the first week of August. People come together. Franklin: Does it happen here, or--? Moore: It happens here or Seattle or California. This year it’s here. Franklin: Oh, the Daniels-Cole? Moore: Daniels-Cole, and that’s because Vanis Daniels, Senior, his wife was a Cole. So they’re starting at those two, and that’s where the--- Franklin: And it radiates out. Moore: Right, so I’m considered third generation from that. For years and years and years, my father was very involved. Vanis is still very involved. I’m not as involved as I used to be. Franklin: Well, I’d love to come to that and map the family tree. Because I’ve interviewed so many people in this extended family network. I didn’t realize when we started this project—I got all these different names— Moore: How many people were related. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Well, and then it’s really like, it seems like a lot of the town just picked up and—I’ve interviewed a few folks from— Moore: That’s what I wonder about. Franklin: I’ve interviewed a few people not from Kildare, and even not from Texas. But 80, 90% have all been from Kildare. Moore: In recent years, we’ve talked about, people should just have a Kildare reunion. Franklin: Yeah. Moore: Because there’s so many people. Don’t even call it a family reunion. Just anybody who can trace themselves back, this is your reunion. That would be quite an undertaking. The last Daniels reunion where I hosted something, I want to say we had over 100 people, and most of them were within Tri-Cities/Seattle/Portland. Before you even leave town, there’s a lot of people. Sometimes it’s like, I’m going to have Thanksgiving at my house, but mum’s the word because I don’t want to have 50 people. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, no kidding. You mentioned your mom didn’t cook chitlins, but did you ever grow up with any other—were those food traditions—any other Southern food traditions an important part of your diet growing up? Moore: Yes. Franklin: What else--? Moore: Dressing. And I called them dumplings—she called them dumplings. I don’t know what other people call them. For Thanksgiving, she would make cornbread. Cornbread and buttermilk was one from my dad. Whenever Mom made cornbread, it was like in a 13x9, and he would take a swath off the end of it and crumble it up in this special rectangular bowl that he had and pour buttermilk over it and eat it. He loved that. I just thought it didn’t sound very good. I’ve never had it, but that was a tradition for him. She would use cornbread and all these other ingredients to make a dressing to go with turkey. Well, she would make pie crust to make the sweet potato pies and the scraps from the crust, she would boil like a broth, like the stock from the turkey innards, you know? Where you’re making broth, and she would just let those down in there and let them boil and they were like big, thick, fat noodles. We called them dumplings. I think they’re called slicks or something, somewhere else. I was watching the cooking show one day and they were making “slicks.” I thought, looks like dumplings to me. So that’s something I love to pour over the gravy and turkey at Thanksgiving. My father made really, really good candied yams. It wasn’t the cans with the marshmallows and all of that. He would take yams, not sweet potatoes, and slice them in spears and bake them with lots of sugar and butter and nutmeg. So when I would host Thanksgiving, I’d have him bring the candied yams. Those are the things that I really liked that she made. And she had some—oh, it’s like beans, pinto beans, but I think it was something she developed on her own; I don’t think it was a tradition. It became a tradition. She was known far and wide in the Tri-Cities for her chocolate chip cookies, because all of my brothers’ friends from the sports teams would want—why don’t you get your mom to bake cookies? That was our thing. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: This question seems kind of self-evident, but I’d like to hear your take on it. Were there opportunities available here that were not available where your parents came from? Moore: Most definitely. Franklin: What kind of opportunities? Moore: More work, just the availability of work. Education, schooling. I don’t think there was higher education there. Like I said, the one room—not necessarily one room, but the schoolhouse was where everybody in every grade grew up there, went to school all together. Mom talked about the difference in the quality of the books from the school she was in versus where the white kids went to school down there, that there was a time where the superintendent came to their school and they were all supposed to put their books on the desk, and he walked around because he wanted to pick the best one to take back to the student at the white school who needed a book. I just thought, are you kidding me? That’s how people were? But that’s just how it was. Franklin: Right, it’s kind of hard to believe. Moore: So those kinds of things are evidence to me that what people have told us is true. When we would go to visit--this would have been in the ‘60s I guess, we were going to Texas to visit and my dad told the boys, I remember him saying to them, it’s not like Richland. Now, when you’re here, just—giving them instructions about what to do, what not to do, who you speak to. Franklin: Do you remember what some of those instructions were? Moore: Well, I think, like if you were walking down the sidewalk and there was a woman coming, you would need to move over to the other side, or don’t look people in the eye, that kind of thing. So you’re listening to this, thinking—because his thought was, you can’t act the way you act in Richland, because it will not be accepted, is basically what he was telling them, telling us. Franklin: Right, because your father had grown up in a segregated society. Moore: Right, right. Yeah. So certain things you do and don’t do. Franklin: Was that shocking for you and your brothers to hear, or was it just kind of accepted? Did you have knowledge that Texas was different from Richland? Moore: It was a little bit shocking to me. I must’ve been, I don’t know, eight or nine. I didn’t say anything. In those days, too, when your parents told you something, you didn’t really question them. You might think to yourself, wow, I wonder why that is. Well, Greg might question it, but—[LAUGHTER] It depends. I guess everybody has their own personality. Some of those kinds of things bothered me a little bit. Some things, maybe we should do here, like yes, ma’am and no, ma’am. It was interesting. I thought to myself, I see why people wanted to leave, why you wouldn’t want to live there. I could see that. Franklin: You got kind of the push and pull factors in play. Moore: Yeah, you might miss your family, but I wouldn’t think you would miss that way of life. And when they came here, things were still—there was still the “colored” areas, I guess, as far as certain stores or lunch counters. I understand, like in Pasco, there was a lunch counter in the drug store that wouldn’t serve. So it wasn’t like it wasn’t here. But by the time we were of age, that type of thing wasn’t happening. Franklin: It wasn’t happening at all? Moore: Not to my knowledge, but I’m sure it happens more covertly. Because I do remember a time when—and this was after I was married—my husband and I—I don’t know if the kids were with us, but we were with my parents, and we went into a local restaurant. It was pretty evident after a little while that they didn’t intend to serve us. You know how you’re just ignored, or we don’t have that, or whatever the case may be. So either you make a decision that you’re either going to make a ruckus, or you’re just going to go somewhere else. Franklin: Is that a restaurant that’s still around? Moore: The building is still a restaurant, but there’s not the same restaurant. There’s a restaurant in that location, I should say. And I wouldn’t want to say because I don’t want to infer anything about them. Franklin: Oh, sure. Do you remember the name of the restaurant—is the business since closed? Moore: Mm-hmm. I’m trying to think. I know the name had—I don’t know the actual name. I think I know the previous name, but I don’t want to say it. Franklin: Okay. Moore: But my husband was the one who picked up on it first. He said, let’s go, they don’t want us here. And he tells me stories of going—he and I are the same age, okay, and he grew up in Pasco and I grew up here. He and his family were going to Spokane. You know how a lot of us stop in Ritzville, you have the bathroom break or whatever. They didn’t want them to use the bathrooms. So if he was five or six—he was born in 1956, so this was maybe early ‘60s? The attendants were telling them everything’s broken, you can’t use, they’re out of order. Leonard’s this little kid, he’d already jumped out of the car and run to the restroom and back. He goes, no, they’re not! I was just in there! [LAUGHTER] But you know, just that sort of treatment, I have experienced that as an adult here. But not often. And I think it’s—in my opinion and the way we were raised is you just kind of consider the source and move on. Because it’s not worth your energy. So. Franklin: Sports was very important for your father. Moore: Yes. Franklin: Right? Was it something that was brought—baseball, specifically—was that something that was brought from the South? Moore: I think so. I think so, because he talks about them playing with a stick and a rock. The more people you talk to, that’s what they did. They played baseball. My father-in-law talks about it, Vanis talks about it. Because it was something you could do with whatever you had. You didn’t have to have special equipment, right, you didn’t have to have special facilities. So you could just mark out a diamond in the dirt somewhere or lay some pads down on the grass. I remember us even doing that in the backyard, or out in a field. So everybody played baseball, from what I understood. So it was very, very popular and he played it here. He played, I think they call them the merchant leagues or whatever, like the stores would sponsor them maybe. Dad also played a little basketball here, too. I saw a picture of him on the Battelle team. Even my mother did, too. There’s a picture of her in uniform. She played basketball in high school, and she played a little bit out here in one of those leagues, which, I can’t figure out how she had time. She had six kids and lots to do. But she played basketball. And she did teach us—she was the one who was out there teaching you how to shoot and playing the game of horse or whatever. So that was kind of fun. But baseball was my dad’s greatest love. If he could’ve been a professional baseball player, he would’ve liked to do that. Then he switched, of course, to umpiring later on. So he stayed connected to baseball. He could tell you so many details of so many games, no matter when it was. Franklin: In what ways were opportunities limited here because of segregation or racism? Moore: In what ways. I would just be giving my opinion, I guess. Job opportunities were limited in some respects, because people—I think it’s human nature to gravitate to people who are like you. So if you’re going to fill a position or if you’re going to do a job search, you have something in mind. Or you have a preconceived notion about a particular group of people, so maybe you don’t make an effort to reach out. Or these people, you would make an effort to reach out, but you’ve got to have trained, skilled people, so who has those skills? So there was some effort made to help improve the skill set of people, too, so there would be more opportunity. So that was a good thing, a very good thing and that opened doors for people. So there are things maybe externally that you can benefit from if you take advantage of them, or you can kind of make your own way, or you are, I guess, hurt or disadvantaged by the practices that exist. I do believe that happened. But I don’t know, I guess I just don’t want to dwell on it a lot. Because people are making progress, but we can’t forget there are those who don’t want to make any progress. And would like it to be, no, you’re not allowed in this area because I don’t want you here. That still goes on. It’s just done differently. Franklin: Hmm. Where did you go to school? Moore: I first started in Lewis and Clark, kindergarten, first and second grade. And then when we moved up to Richland Village, to Jefferson, then to Chief Joseph when it was still a junior high instead of a middle school. It had a different mascot, different colors, because it closed there for a while and then reopened. I went to Hanford High School the year it opened, 1973, I was a sophomore. I was going into my sophomore year. At that time, we didn't have four-year high schools. So your freshman year was in junior high school. And we lived on Newcomer Street, which was the line. We lived on the Hanford side of the line. So I was one of the first classes to go there. But I ended up transferring back to Richland High. When Hanford opened, we had no seniors, because they allowed everybody who was going to be a senior to finish at Richland. And then we also did not have all the classes. So you may be going to Hanford, but your accounting class, you had to get on a bus and go to Richland. Franklin: Oh. Moore: So for me, I was kind of doing this back-and-forth and got involved in the Cooperative Office Education program when I was a junior. So I was only going to class for half a day anyway. Franklin: What was the cooperative office— Moore: They call it COE. It’s where you take business classes at school, and then you have a job where you work at least four hours a day, so you get credit for the work and then also for the class. They still do it. They still do it. They call it something else. I work at PNNL, and we hire students who do that. You’ve heard of DECA, which is the retail type? Have you heard of the DECA clubs? Franklin: Mm-mm. Moore: No? Tsk. You didn’t grow up here. Franklin: I did not. Moore: No. Franklin: No, very much no. Moore: So anyway, that’s what I did, and that’s how I got into banking. Actually, I wanted to work at Battelle, because many of the students were picked by Battelle and they paid better. At that time, minimum wage was $1.65 an hour, in 1973 when I was 15-going-on-16. I wanted to go to Battelle, but they wouldn’t allow me, because my father worked there in the personnel department. Some of my friends did, and I ended up going to Seattle First National Bank. Which is what it was called then; now it’s Bank of America. Yeah. So graduated from Richland High, ’75. Franklin: Your brothers had been pretty involved in sports. Moore: Yes. Franklin: Right, kind of sports. And it seemed like a lot of—the Browns were also really big—it seemed like sports was a big avenue of acceptance for young black men in Richland. I wonder, from your perception, were things—being a girl and really not being able at that time—there weren’t a lot of sports options available to you, right? Moore: Not a lot. Franklin: Because Title IX hadn’t really come into effect yet. Moore: Yeah. There weren’t a lot. I mean, there was softball and tennis. There were opportunities I didn’t particularly choose to get involved with. I think I went out for tennis in seventh grade and didn’t think that was my thing. But sports, that’s an avenue where a lot of young men kind of excelled and were interested. The Browns were—they were kind of a half a generation older. Because they were teen stars, I guess you would say, at Richland High back in the ‘50s, like in the mid-‘50s. Whereas then my oldest brother graduated high school ’69, so it’s kind of a—I don’t know if you were—Theartis Wallace, he’s first cousin to CW and Norris. He played for the Sonics when they first—didn’t they start out with an expansion team or something? He played. His family’s here still. There was a lot of sports activities which was good because everybody liked—sports were huge, period in the Tri-Cities. I think part of that was Hanford, too, providing outlets for people to have activities. Remember when we went on the tour and you see the size of the schools and the gyms and the pools. They had teams. So these young people would have had parents who were maybe on these—like my dad, he played. And Vanis’ relatives, they’re already playing on what they called the merchant leagues or the Hanford leagues. So it was going on, and people would get you involved. Like my dad coached, for one, and I remember him helping get Little League started in Pasco. We were out the house one day and Vanis and Edmon—I think Edmon was there, too—but they had this big bag full of, you know the wool baseball—baseball uniforms were wool. They were going through bags of uniforms trying to sort out some things that they might be able to use, and I think that was sort of the beginnings of Little League in Pasco. But I know my dad coached my brothers. One of the reasons he got into coaching was because he wanted to be there. He was concerned about their experience. Franklin: What was the root of the concern? Moore: Just how are the kids going to be treated when they’re out there on the ball team. I don’t think he did it initially. If you were to talk to my brother, Nestor, he might be able to elaborate. But I think at one point, he was having some—some experience that he had led my father to want to be a little closer to the game. I don’t think it was necessarily—it wasn’t a racial thing; it was just the coaching interaction with the kids type of thing. Franklin: How were things different for you, just compared to your brothers. Or was it different for you, not having that sports outlet? Moore: Probably less social for me. Less social. I had my few close friends, we walked to school together, we played tetherball at recess or whatever. I had a lot of friends in school. I got along with people, I was involved in things, like ASB and that sort of thing. So I wasn’t like in my shell, but it was different, because you look at boyfriend/girlfriend interactions, right? I’m a black teen-aged girl, and there’s mostly just white guys in the whole school. So there wasn’t as much interaction as far as dating and that kind of thing. I didn’t really date. Franklin: Was that discouraged, do you think? Moore: I don’t think it was necessarily openly discouraged; it just was not done. You know what I mean? It just was understood that it really wasn’t done. Especially not black female and a white male. Maybe the other way was more likely that you would see. But then you had to be careful, because how’s that going to be received by your peers, by parents, by the public? I know they could probably tell you some stories. Or even church, because there are certain sort of things that—we just don’t do that. I remember my mother, seeing the cover of a, they call them quarterlies, what you’d get every quarter for your church for your next upcoming Bible studies. And I think maybe there were a black teen-aged boy and a white girl or something on the cover, and that was like—[GASP] for some people. We can’t use this! Or if you wanted to date someone’s daughter, I know the boys would have to think about that, because it would be different. I didn’t experience it because it wouldn’t be that dynamic, do you know what I mean? Franklin: Right that was even—your situation would have even been rarer. Moore: Rarer. Yeah, you get it. That would be rare and this would be rarer. I do remember there was a guy that, we were friends and he’d asked me out to prom or something. We went and kind of started dating a little bit. At some point, I think I said to him, I felt uncomfortable. Like if you’re walking down the mall and people are looking, and I felt a little bit uncomfortable. So I thought, hmm, I just don’t want to do this anymore. He got really upset—and I don’t know if you should show this on your tape, but I’m just going to tell you. He says, do you know how many friends I lost because of you? So, you know, like I went out on a limb, and now you’re saying this? And I just remember thinking, well, then I guess they weren’t your friends, were they? Franklin: Yeah. Moore: That’s the first thing that came to my mind. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Moore: I mean, it’s out there. Franklin: I like how that’s somehow your fault. Moore: Right, it’s my fault. Franklin: Well, I mean there were—it’s funny, because I try to teach—when I teach American history, I teach this in class that there were miscegenation laws up until the ‘60s and ‘70s in a lot of states. Interracial couplings were illegal for—and today, I think we look back on that and just be like, well, why? What was the rationale? The decay of society, and the loosening of morals, and it seems silly now. But 40, 50 years ago, it wasn’t—it was very alive. That thinking was very alive. It’s interesting to me how quickly that has changed and how normal that is to a lot of us now. Moore: Yeah, but then there are those that it’s not okay. Franklin: For still, yeah. For some. Moore: Depending on where you are, you’re taking your life in your hands. Franklin: That’s true. Moore: Literally. Franklin: Yeah. It’s become a lot more unpopular to express an opinion about that, a negative opinion towards that. Moore: Right, it has, but. Franklin: Yeah, interesting. Moore: The reactions to it are—some are out there. Franklin: So many of your brothers and other men I’ve interviewed have mentioned that sports was a vehicle to acceptance. One person, I can’t—I think it may have been Emmitt Jackson that mentioned that he thought it must have been—he heard it was—imagined it was harder for girls. Because without that outlet there for acceptance, there just wasn’t—because everyone liked sports. So if you were a good sports player, people overlooked a lot of maybe other prejudices they might have had and were able to accept you better. Moore: Because of the—I don’t know, it’s almost like you’re being unique. Because there was a lot of acceptance. People looked at me as an individual. Not as a black person. Because they would say things, and I’m thinking, I’m right here. [LAUGHTER] Or make a generalization. And I’d say, well, you can’t say that about everybody. And they’d say, well, that’s not you. You’re Vanessa. You know what I mean? So they’re saying that because they know you, that’s not you. Franklin: You’re the good one. Moore: Yeah, you know what I’m trying to say? Franklin: Oh, I know exactly, yeah. I have heard things like that before. Moore: I’m not sure I expressed it very well, but—they don’t see it. But I could go all day and never see another black person until I went home. But I’m not thinking about that. Just like they’re not thinking about it. That’s Leslie, this is whoever, this is Pam, this is me. We’re just who we are. It’s not that they’re white and I’m black. Which is, I think, the way it should be. But it seemed hard for people to be like that if it was someone they didn’t know personally. Franklin: How did racism or segregation affect your education? Moore: I think, for me, it probably affected it in a positive way, because my parents emphasized it, emphasized education being important. Because people who were denied it, they saw it as the way to have a better life. So it was just sort of assumed, you’re going to work hard in school and that’s your job and you’re going to get good grades, and college is what comes after high school. So it affected me probably in a good way in that sense. But the overall opportunities, I don’t know. Because where I lived, it probably wasn’t a big factor. But in a way, too, though—this is kind of an odd way to say this—but when I was applying to colleges, I kind of had this, I don’t want to go too far away from home feeling. Maybe that’s normal, but in retrospect, I think it would have been neat to seek out some of the historically black colleges and universities, just to have the experience. I had been accepted, but I was afraid to go, or thought my parents couldn’t afford it or whatever. We have odd ideas when we’re teenagers, right? So the experience could have been different. My father actually wanted me to apply to the Air Force Academy, because that was the year they took girls, and my brother, Duke, had graduated from the Air Force Academy. And I thought, oh, no. [LAUGHTER] Nope. I ended up, I went to WSU for my first year. I got married spring break, and kind of went to school off and on after that, ‘til I finished at CBC, and now I’ll finish here at WSU this December. After all these years— Franklin: Congrats. Moore: --I’m back to finish what I started back in 1976. So I’ll graduate and retire. How does that sound? Franklin: That sounds good. It’s never too late. It’s never too late to finish something. Moore: Some people think I’m crazy. Like, why are you doing that? Franklin: You know what? If it matters to you, then that’s what’s important. You want to be able to say you did it. Moore: Yup. Franklin: Yeah. Who are some of the people who influenced you as a child? Moore: Mostly my mom. Franklin: How so? Moore: Because she was a person who trained us and explained how the proper way to be, what was important, value systems. My dad also as far as—but he was gone a lot more. So I think Mom—and that happens to a lot of families. That’s the person you’re closest to. Teachers, also. Teachers would encourage me, like, say, nominate you for this position or that position. Or choose you as the—I think I was the—you know you have the patrol that go out in grade school and have the sign for you to cross the street? Franklin: Oh, the crossing guard. Moore: Yeah. The fifth grade teacher, of course, appointed me as captain. So I remember that experience. There was this one big kid who didn’t want to listen to me, and so we had a run-in. [LAUGHTER] So teachers. And the encouragement about your skills or your abilities or your potential and your future. So I got that from teachers from grade school all the way up to high school, and then people that I worked with who were very encouraging. Franklin: Members of your family had worked out at Hanford, some of them during the Manhattan Project like your great-uncles and things and your father later, and the Cold War. What was your reaction, or what do you know about your parents’ reaction in learning that the work they had done out there had contributed to the development of atomic weapons? Moore: My father, I think he looked at it as having done something good, and I think most people did when they realized, because it was to help stop something from getting worse. And for many of them, I don’t—I can’t speak for what they thought, but what amazes me is the fact that everybody was so consistent with keeping the secret, and saying, you just don’t talk about that. And dedicated to the work that they were doing. The people that I’ve talked to and interviewed myself, they were thankful to have been able to raise families and make a wage that they could have a good life. And I think people were patriotic that they were supporting the war effort, I suppose. But then there are also times where you think, that’s just so horrific. When I learned about it in school--and I didn’t connect it back to Hanford when I first learned of it, when we talked about Nagasaki and Hiroshima and all of that, I thought, oh my goodness, how could we do that to people? You know? Just the devastation and the killing power of it all, it was just kind of upsetting to me that any country would do that to any other country. And then the way that people were treated. I had an art teacher who—he still lives here, Mr. Yamamoto—who told us the stories of the internment camps when he was a little boy. It just was very upsetting to think that anybody could treat—that people could treat other people the way that they were treated. Franklin: I think that kind of—you kind of get right to the heart of why this is such an interesting issue for people not from here, and kind of the divide. Because I think the horror is often what people who are not from here immediately think of; whereas when you first mentioned that people were grateful for the opportunities it gave, that it helped to win the war, that it provided stable income is something that people from here think of. There seems to—I guess what’s—the truth is really in both. I mean, those are both true experiences, those are both true reactions. You can’t say that one side is objectively true. And I think that’s-- Moore: And some things we just blindly went along with. You know, like, when it came—I don’t know how long ago it was—but, okay, growing up in Richland, you have the mushroom cloud at the school. It’s on everything. Everything’s “atomic.” And the plane and all of that. We thought nothing of it. And then when some—I think it was students or some people from Japan, years ago, coming in, seeing those things and being so upset and insulted, and you realize, oh my goodness. Why do we do that? You just feel bad. Franklin: Mm-hmm. That’s what—in March, we had the visitor from Nagasaki who survived the bombing. He toured the B Reactor. But I think what upset him the most was the mushroom cloud symbol, and that it was a source of pride for the community. Moore: Talk about insensitive, right? Franklin: Right, and it wasn’t a source of pride to him. He had been a child during the bombing. Yeah. It’s reconciling that. So you had mentioned, though, when you first heard about the bombings you had felt this kind of shock. What about when you connected—do you remember anything about drawing that direct connection from that event to where we are right now? Because there is a very—there’s a very distinct line— Moore: No, not at that time. Franklin: Okay. Moore: Not at that time, because it was just something we were reading in the history books, and I’d never heard about the Manhattan Project. Franklin: What about when you did find out? Moore: I wondered what people, like the question you asked, the people who had been working here and didn’t know what it was, what in the world did they think when they found out? Some of them must have felt like, I wish I hadn’t been a part of that. We don’t know. We can just speculate. I never really talked to anybody about that. But it comes to your mind, what must they have thought? Franklin: Or maybe what—yeah, because I always feel like there’s a difference between what feelings people might harbor inside and what they say outwardly. Because they don’t want to criticize or be unpatriotic. Certainly the physicists had deep misgivings about it. But it’s always interesting to hear. Yeah, I’ve always wanted to know what people really think. Moore: Yeah, I would like to know. I guess there’s some of them we’d better ask before it’s too late! Franklin: Well, I’ve asked a lot of folks, you know, over 100, and it’s always kind of— Moore: That were actually there and doing it at that time? Franklin: Only a few that were actually there, but it’s interesting. So the last question, the second-to-last question I ask in all these interviews is, “What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War?” And I’ll ask you that question later, but just to bring that up, because usually when I ask that question, for people who, their parents may have worked here or even some that came here in the Cold War, nine times out of ten, they always say, well, the bomb won the war, and we should always remember that. Even though they weren’t directly involved in that event at all, that has seemed to be this unifying point of this community’s history, this kind of objective truth. Not that it’s not true, but it seems to just be—it dominates the whole thing. Moore: Is that to make it feel okay? [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I don’t know. Sometimes I—I don’t know if I should say this on camera, but sometimes I think so. It’s just interesting, because as an outsider, I have a different perspective. Moore: Mm-hmm. We’ll have to talk about that. [LAUGHTER] But you know, when you’re talking about that just now and the actual war itself, I think some of the things I remember were the whole-body counters and the drills. Get under your desk. Franklin: Did you have to do the whole-body counter? Moore: Yes, yes. Franklin: And tell me about that. Because I’ve—I haven’t talked to people about that direct experience. Moore: They would bring a big like semi-sized truck to the school every once in a while, and we would have to go in and lie down and go through what they called the whole-body counter. Just because we lived here. We lived near Hanford, so they were checking us. I want to say, I think the building is—it hasn’t been that long ago, don’t they still have a building downtown where they have a whole-body counter? Franklin: Yup. Moore: Okay. Yeah. But they would bring it to us. Franklin: It was like a mobile one. Moore: Mm-hmm. And I was in grade school, so I know I did it at least twice. And then we would do some of the other drills where if you heard certain sirens, you were going to have to get under your desk. At the time, we just did it. But you think back at it now and you’re like, what would that do for you? You would be dead anyway. It’s not going to help you. Because we’re talking about, in case of a nuclear attack, get under your desk? No. But the body counts to check and seeing the symbols on certain buildings so that you know that that’s where there’s a shelter. Franklin: Ah, the civil defense. Moore: Uh-huh, and the radiation in the bomb shelter symbols. Franklin: Did the whole-body counter ever—did you ever connect that with the possibility of receiving something that could have been picked up by that machine? Moore: Yeah. Franklin: Did that—what kind of feelings did that elicit in you? Moore: Just that we just did it and nobody ever seemed to have any problems so it must be okay. But I remember also—and not knowing the significance of it, but I remember my father having to leave specimens. They’d put these little kits on your porch. Franklin: Yeah, that would be like a metal— Moore: Yeah. Franklin: With a glass— Moore: Yeah, and so you had to leave a urine specimen, and then someone would come and pick it up. Franklin: Yeah, we have some of those in our collection. Unused. Moore: We didn’t think about it. It’s just like, oh, that’s, my dad works there. Franklin: Right, he just has to do this. Moore: he just has to do this, or seeing the guys come with their lunch pails. Everybody had those black metal lunch boxes like you see in the cartoons. They’d get off the buses on the corners and be walking home. Because the big—like, the bus they had down there at CREHST, I think it’s brown and yellow, those buses were driving the streets everyday. Only in Richland. It didn’t dawn on me until quite a bit later that, well, some of the people that worked out there lived in Pasco or Kennewick. How come they don’t get a bus? But there was a reason. I mean, you had to be in Richland. It was just part of life. As a little kid, you just see it go by, and that’s what happens. But I do remember as a young adult, the scene, that incident that Vanis described to you when we were on the tour and the man fell through. Franklin: Oh, yeah. Moore: I know his family. And I asked Vanis the other day if that was who I thought that was, and he said yeah. And I remember when it happened, because his sister—well, his parents and my parents kind of knew each other because everybody’s kids played baseball. So they knew one another and I just remember thinking how tragic that was for their family. How could something like that happen? But people go on and life goes on and it just does. And then when—was it McCluskey? Was that the contamination? Franklin: Yeah, the americium. Moore: Yeah, that one really got me. Franklin: How so? Moore: Because you realize how easy it would be for something to happen and people to be contaminated. When I worked out there, I know they checked us all the time. It took me a while to get used to the term of being “crapped up” because we didn’t even say words like that. [LAUGHTER] I thought, what are you talking about? Franklin: Just very quickly, because I know it was much later, but when did you go out to work at Hanford? Moore: It was 1991. Franklin: And you started on with Westinghouse, right? Moore: Westinghouse. I was going to be a field clerk at PUREX, at the PUREX facility. I was going to be supporting the radiation technicians. We called them—they have had different names, HBTs, RCTs, the rad tech people. So I was their clerk to keep track of all their records and reporting and doing some different things and it was quite an experience, because it was another world to me. I was used to being somewhere where you had nice surroundings, you had an hour lunch, things were comfortable. And I interviewed for this position in town, but then the assignment was out there. And later on, the manager told me, well, if I had let you see it, you wouldn’t have come. And I think he was right. It was like Hogan’s Heroes. You’ve seen the building, the camp where they’re in? That’s what it reminded me of. The razor wire and the guard shack, and you had to put your purse—everything down and it went through the little turnstile to check it and the guards had their guns, and you went through radiation monitors to go through different sections of the building. So it was a real eye-opener for me the first day. They were getting ready to go to shutdown; nothing was being produced anymore. So I was after that. It was all about remediation and then restoration. Franklin: How long did you stay out there? Moore: I think I came into another position that was into the 300 Area, maybe a couple of years later, and then back out to the 200 Area in the 2750 Building I think it was, so it was in more of an office building. There it was more like being in town. Like, once you get there, it’s no different if you were at the Federal Building; it’s just that you’re far away. And you can’t run to Zip’s or something on lunch. [LAUGHTER] But it was nothing unusual. My brother, Greg, worked out there at that time, too, and I had other relatives. And I realized once I went from my banking world to the Hanford world, a lot of classmates, former classmates, that I thought didn’t live here anymore, they worked out there. So everyday I saw somebody that I knew. So it was interesting to kind of get reacquainted and I didn’t feel so much a fish out of water, because I knew people and there was help to learn what was going on. Franklin: Kind of like one big extended family. Moore: I know! If you’re not related to me, I went to school with you, right? At one point I became an activities administrator, so I monitored the budget for the Tank Farm’s HBTs to make sure they had the equipment that they needed and they weren’t overspending, or if there was going to be training, that kind of thing. Bob Heineman, I think I saw him on one of the films for these productions— Franklin: Yeah. Moore: He was my boss at one time. Franklin: Oh, okay. Yeah, I had a really interesting interview with Bob Heineman. Moore: I thought it was good. I just heard part of it. Franklin: He was quite an interesting guy. Moore: Yeah. He and my brother, Duke, went to school together, I think. Franklin: Right, yeah. Moore: So Bob was—he was one of those encouraging people that kept after me. When are you going to finish school? When are you going to do—what are you going to do next? Just that kind of thing. So the community was—people were pretty close-knit and my family was, in a way, kind of known. So if I just said the name, they knew you were a Mitchell, then it was like, okay, I know you, practically. So that’s the value of a small community. My kids say it’s not, because, Mom, I can’t go anywhere with you. Everybody knows you. To me, it’s comfortable. Franklin: Right, right. Because you would’ve been used to it, right? I mean, your father had such a large role in the community, and it seems he was a very beloved figure. What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Moore: During my time here? I think equal pay would be probably one. And in some realms, acceptance. I know my dad tells a story about moving into a particular neighborhood, and— Franklin: Just kind of down the street here? Moore: Yeah, and you have neighbors who are your peers and behave as if, ooh, you’re getting a little too close to me. You-shouldn’t-be-able-to-afford-to-live-where-I-live kind of reactions. So he’s told me a couple stories about that. Not too long ago, actually. Several years back, but, I’m like, really? Because I knew the people. And he says, oh yeah. So you just—and Mom and Dad were not the type to fill our heads full of a lot of things that were going to get us agitated. You just kind of deal with it, I don’t need to talk—and maybe it was just kind of a generational thing, too, though. There’s grown-up conversation and you don’t need to know everything. So they lived life without burdening us with their troubles. And my mother would say sometimes, you just don’t need to worry about that. Whatever “that” was. And I think that’s, in a way, a good thing, but then it also shelters you from some things maybe you should be aware of. Franklin: What actions were being taken to address the issues that you just mentioned? Moore: I know some of the major employers, just from having been in the workforce here, have deliberate plans. Like they pay attention to affirmative action, and they maybe have set goals that they try to adhere to. And sometimes, depending on who is in charge at the time, how much effort goes into some of those things. You understand what I mean? Franklin: Yeah. Moore: Yeah. Like they exist, but are you actively working your plan, or is it just one of those things that, you know, I’ll do it if I have to? So I think that’s one thing, from my point of view from being in the workforce. Franklin: Who were the most important leaders of civil rights efforts in the area? Moore: My goodness. I’m not sure I’m the person to ask. Are there—yeah, not like the ‘60s, like people organizing marches and things like that. I can’t— Franklin: Were you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Moore: I kind of fell in the in-between, where there was not a lot of activity. I do remember having cousins whose parents were kind of involved, and so would be marching in downtown Pasco, I think it was maybe ’65 or something, when there were some civil rights marches. They would make posters and get involved and get the whole family involved in. We didn’t participate so much in those kinds of things, not that—I as a child wasn’t aware a lot of it was going on. I’d see it on the news or something. But not direct participation. So I don’t know if that’s because I was too young or wasn’t active enough. Franklin: So now to the big question that I mentioned earlier. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War? Moore: I think, about working at Hanford, that you should study it and understand it to—study the history of it to understand why things are the way they are now. Because there’s legacy in regards to behaviors, I think, in this community. Maybe people’s expectations and worldview of—maybe it’s not the worldview—but what they should be entitled to, or how life should be. Because it’s residual from that timeframe, where things, for some people, were just provided to them and handed to them, or you just get this job and you’re going to do that forever, you don’t have to worry about it, you’re going to get a good pension, you’re going to get to retire. So they got to remember that one thing they should learn is, things change. Right? Don’t get too comfortable. Because life can change, even though in past generations they just thought it would go on and on and on. At some point, it’s got to be changed. Because the government can’t support everybody. And people should have a work ethic and some people would tend not to feel they had to. Right? Don’t let yourself be complacent, I guess, is what I’d think they should learn. And to always be looking for opportunity and doing what they can do to grow. Franklin: Yeah, I understand. I’ve been out there a little bit. [LAUGHTER] Moore: I had a hard time coming from outside Hanford and going to Hanford, and people’d say, oh, don’t worry about it. Or, you’re working too hard. And I thought, what? This is my job. Franklin: I was surprised—you know, I started in the summer of 2015 being out there a bit. I was surprised at how much of the good ole boy attitude is still there. You do think that’s a thing of the past, but—wow. Moore: Yeah, it hasn’t died out yet. It hasn’t. Franklin: No, it’s a strange incubator. It’s just its own world out there. And some things are great about that world. What about living in Richland during the Cold War? And growing up during that time and in this kind of unique community? Moore: It was kind of a unique community, because of so many people in the town had the same employer, basically. So it became one of those things, if you didn’t work there, or your parents didn’t work there, you just felt like you were somehow out of the loop. You know, you couldn’t be in a conversation around dinner or going out with somebody, because they’d get onto the Hanford, and you'd have nothing else. You’re just the outsider. So I learned that it’s definitely a culture of its own. But it’s a big supporter of the community, and the companies made sure that the schools were good. So I think educational opportunities were much improved because of it. Look at all the things that go into CBC just so that the contractors can have what they need. Community college—I don’t think it would be what it is today without Hanford and making sure that the high number of highly educated and trained people in science and technology is what drives part of what goes on with all the STEM everywhere. This school is going to have a computer lab, because my kids are going to go there and they need to know this. You almost get the feeling that you’re getting the extra support that some other community is not going to get because they don’t have a Hanford in their backyard. So there’s a lot of horsepower there. Franklin: Yeah. Moore: I don’t know if you’ve ever thought about it, but there is. Franklin: No, no, no, believe me, I very much have. People have high expectations for their children here. Moore: They did, which translated into high expectations for their educators and all of that. I remember being struck that non-Richland people—like I said, my husband grew up in Pasco—there seemed to be more entrepreneurs outside of Richland. Like you have very successful farmers, or, his father had his own business. There’s dentists and lawyers and just people that were in different walks of life, because they had a different experience. I thought it was pretty cool. Because, like, not everybody works for Hanford; some people do other things! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right. Did you spend a lot of time—you mentioned that sometimes you would go to Morning Star Baptist Church. How connected with the community in east Pasco was your family? Did you have a lot of friends—did you have friends over there? Moore: My parents were very connected. We as kids weren’t so connected, because we were almost, I think, by other children, looked at as outsiders. Franklin: You mean, like other children in east Pasco would have looked at you as— Moore: Yes, yes, yes. Because, you live in Richland, you think you’re better than everybody. That’s quote-unquote, you think you’re white. Or why do you live there? Because my parents do. I live where my parents live. That was very hurtful for me. When I got married, I moved to Pasco because my husband’s business and family were in Pasco. And I saw a change in some people who had been that way toward me. It was like, okay, now she’s okay. And I never understood that. I’m the same person I’ve always been. Franklin: You left your airs behind. Moore: Yeah. Because Richland people think they’re better than everybody else. Did you know that? That was the talk. Franklin: Oh, no, I’ve heard that. A lot. I mean, I’ve heard— Moore: We Richland people don’t understand why. But I was subject to that, too. From relatives and non-relatives. Franklin: I think that happened, from a lot of the folks I’ve talked to for this project and the general oral history project, that seemed to be existing for just people from Richland in general, from Kennewick and Pasco were just like, oh, you Richland people. It wasn’t a secret closed city, but it did—everybody there had this Hanford connection, and it was different enough— Moore: And there was a time where you apparently couldn’t live in Richland unless you worked—you couldn’t own property. I mean you might live on a trailer camp, right, or rent, but you couldn’t own. Franklin: Well, you couldn’t own property, period. And you couldn’t rent unless you either worked at Hanford or you were a contractor in the way—like, for the folks that ran the retail in the Uptown, they were contracted through the Atomic Energy Commission to do that, and so they were allowed to do that in Richland. But, you know they were still— Moore: And for a time, if you were a black, you couldn’t either, so— Franklin: Right. Well, you had to work at Hanford and most of the jobs for blacks were menial. They weren’t recruiting people into the science and engineering for a time. Certainly it was mostly construction. Moore; Right, construction and laborers. Because you hear that over and over. I was a laborer; oh, I worked construction. And some people it became very, very skilled and built all kinds of homes. Well, the people who built Morning Star. Joe Williams was one of the people who helped build that and he was a skilled worker out here that helped with the lining of the tanks. We have him on one video, and he talked about his work. Or my uncle, Willy Daniels, who—he was a school teacher when he was back in Texas. So when he came back here, he was one of—some people, I guess, couldn’t read and write or needed some assistance, so that was one of the things that he helped with, which put him in positions that other people weren’t. Even when he was an old man, I’d say Uncle Willy was in his 80s, and I remember—I was a stay-at-home mom then and I lived in Pasco and I would see Uncle Willy every once in a while. I’d go visit him. He’d say, oh, I have to go to take so-and-so to the bank, because I have to help them. He was still doing it. Up until he died, I think, he was still helping people with things. But yeah, you just—you don’t know what your life is going to be like. It’s been interesting. Everybody has their own story to tell, right? But I did have that experience where it hurt my feelings that people would talk to me that way or feel like I thought I was better than they were. Yeah, it upsets me still. Franklin: Understandably. Is there anything you would like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights and how they’ve impacted your life here at Hanford and Tri-Cities? Moore: Here at Hanford. I don’t think there’s anything in particular. I am thankful for my ancestors. I am thankful for the upbringing and training that I had, and the exposure that I’ve had. And the opportunities that I’ve had. I think I would want to try to carry that on. I’ve been involved in the community as far as volunteering and working with non-profit groups and trying to help keep history alive. So I think maybe I could’ve been more outspoken or involved. It wasn’t my nature; it wasn’t my experience. But I think, speaking up when something needs to be said is something that we should do. Franklin: Great. Well, Vanessa, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview with me today. Moore: I appreciate being here. Thanks for having me. Franklin: You’re very welcome. Moore: All right. Franklin: All right. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview General Electric Battelle Westinghouse PUREX 300 Area 200 Area 2750 Building Tank Farms Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1956- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1991- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vanessa Moore Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Discrimination Segregation Baseball Basketball Civil rights movements Nuclear industry Description An account of the resource Vanessa Moore was born in Richland, Washington in 1956 and started working on the Hanford Site in 1991. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/11/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F4413dba878d935c364e3373f38c08769.JPG d256ea67536b42ca9342d8c9df1ca46f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F34b536e092c0e476f22d3547ad32e8ae.mp4 f67062fd73e25d245349df92c33957cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vanis and Edmon Daniels Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Vanis and Edmon Daniels on May 7th, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the Campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking to Edmon and Vanis about their experiences living in the Tri-Cities and/or working at the Hanford Site. And for the record could you state and spell your full name for us starting with Edmon. Edmon Daniels: Edmon Leo Daniels. E-D-M-O-N, L-E-O, D-A-N-I-E-L-S Vanis Daniels: Vanis Daniels. V-A-N-I-S, D-A-N-I-E-L-S, number two. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Where did your parents move from? Edmon Daniels: My parents were originally from Texas but when he came here he was working in Utah. Franklin: Your father, Vanis, Sr.? Edmon Daniels: My father, yes. He came here from Utah. Franklin: Where in Texas were your parents from? Edmon Daniels: Cass County, which is a little place. Kildare, I guess it is. I guess that’s where—Kildare, Texas. Franklin: How long had the family been there? Edmon Daniels: Forever, I guess. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know. It goes back a ways, quite a ways. Because my mother’s family, her father was Indian, so I guess they had been there before anyone else was there. [LAUGHTER] Her father, I really don’t know a thing about her father. I don’t know anything about either one of them, but, you know. I guess they had been there forever, probably their parents and their parents, that’s how it works. Franklin: What was your father doing in Utah before he came out? Edmon Daniels: You know, I really don’t know. Vanis Daniels: He worked in a defense plant, but what they were doing, I really don’t know. Franklin: What did he do in Kildare before leaving Kildare? Vanis Daniels: He worked on the railroad. Mm-hmm. Southern Pacific. Edmon Daniels: Southern Pacific. Franklin: Great, that’s those questions. Did your mother also come with him at the same time? Edmon Daniels: No, she came the next year, ‘44 I think it was. Franklin: When did he come to Hanford? Vanis Daniels: ’43. Edmon Daniels: ‘43. Franklin: ’43, and then she followed a year later? Vanis Daniels: Yes. Edmon Daniels: Yes. Franklin: What do you know about their lives before they came to work at Hanford? Edmon Daniels: I really don’t know. It was just probably she worked at home. Vanis Daniels: It was during the Depression and my dad had a job. No one else hardly had jobs. I mean, there just wasn’t anything for anyone to do. They did a little farming and stuff like that around here. My dad grew up on a farm, and he said once he left there he never worked in a farm again. So he went to work on the railroad. Since he had a job, and other people in the community didn’t, he helped raise his sisters—well, he had two sisters—both of his sisters’ kids, because the oldest one had eight kids, her and her husband and he got killed on the railroad by a train. Franklin: Who was that? Vanis Daniels: CJ Mitchell. The younger sister had a daughter, and my dad helped raise all those kids, And then my mom’s brother did farming and stuff like that, and he would help subsidize them when they needed money, loan them money or whatever they needed. He was making probably at that time, probably a whole two dollars a day form daylight to dark or sunup to sundown. Edmon Daniels: Big money. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Your father’s sister married a Mitchell? Vanis Daniels: Yes. Franklin: And you said the younger sister—I’m sorry. So, I’m just trying to figure out families here, what was your mother’s maiden name? Vanis Daniels: Ida Lee Cole. Franklin: Cole, okay. I know there were several families that came up here from Kildare, right? Vanis Daniels: Right. Franklin: You’re related to the Mitchells and what other families here are you related to? Vanis Daniels: The Miles, the Richmonds-- Edmon Daniels: The Browns. Vanis Daniels: The Browns, the Weavers. Edmon Daniels: The Wallaces. Franklin: That’s very extensive family network that moved up. Vanis Daniels: Yes. Edmon Daniels: Yes. Franklin: For both of you, I’ll start with Edmon, when were you born? Edmon Daniels: I never tell my age. Franklin: Okay, are you older or younger than Vanis? Edmon Daniels: I’m much younger than he is. Franklin: Much younger. Vanis when were you born? Vanis Daniels: 12th of June, ’37. Franklin: Okay, okay. Thanks. What do you know about your parents—I guess we’ll start with your father since he came first. What do you know about his initial experience of coming to work at Hanford and finding a place to live? Edmon Daniels: Well, at that time when people was coming to Hanford, they all lived out in the barracks. And what my father said, when he came, the barracks were being built but they wasn’t completed. He said his first night out at Hanford, they slept on the ground. I guess they had a tent, I don’t know. But they built those barracks quickly, I think within a year or so. They had—well enough to—50,000 people. Their living condition, that’s where you lived if you was working out there and everything was segregated by race-- Vanis Daniels: Gender. Edmon Daniels: Yeah, gender and the whole works. My father lived over here, my mother lived over there; male and female they didn’t stay together. Franklin: Even though they were married? Edmon Daniels: Even though they were married. Safety’s sake. Because they was working 24 hours a day, so someone was working, you wouldn’t want to leave your wife in barracks full of other mens and everything, and you go to work and she was there. So, everything was segregated and the barracks was made up of—and at that time, they couldn’t tell everything, but they had barracks on everything. People don’t realize this, my mother said there were barracks for homosexuals. The homosexuals had their own barracks. And this is something they told us after we became adults. Most of the ladies’ jobs was to clean up the barracks and cooking. Vanis Daniels: Working in the mess hall. Edmon Daniels: Yeah, working in the mess hall. Franklin: Is that what your mother did? Edmon Daniels: Yes, that’s just about what all the ladies did. They needed some typing done, but like I said, most people at that time was—very few people could type. So they went out to Benton City or someplace to the high school. And I ended—when I started working out there, that lady—they got a couple of ladies that knew how to type from the schools and the Army would go and get them at the school and take them out to the Hanford Site and they were type up whatever was needed and then they’d take them back home. When I started working out there Dolores was still working there, she had the most time—I think she started working out there ‘45 or something like that, she had more time in than anyone. Vanis Daniels: Except Charlie Gant. Edmon Daniels: Yeah, Charlie Gant. Well, he started back East in ’39. But as far as the ladies who was working there at that time, she had more time than anyone else. Like I said, I think she said she was like 16 when she started working there. Franklin: Wow. When did you start working at Hanford? Edmon Daniels: ’66. Franklin: ’66. So your father and mother lived in separate barracks. How did they make time for each other? Did their schedules match up? What do you know about their personal lives during that period? Edmon Daniels: Well, it was sort of like a courtship all of a sudden, because they had a place where the husbands could go and visit their wives or if they had girlfriends, whatever it was. But at a certain hour, you had to get up and leave. But since they could not get a room in Pasco, Kennewick or Richland they would go to-- Vanis Daniels: Yakima. Edmon Daniels: Yakima. They’d catch the bus and go to Yakima. It’s so odd the way people’s mind worked, but an Oriental guy in Yakima let the blacks have rooms. They was out there building something to drop over there, yet the Oriental guy was the one that treated them like they were people instead of just someone. There’s good in people and there’s bad in people. [LAUGHTER] That’s how they would spend time together. They would be able to, I know, like he said, he’d go and visit her sort of like in a waiting room. And then, I don’t know if any of you guys have been out past 300 on out to the ferry—they used to have a ferry out there. My father said that they could get together and go catch the ferry across, over to the Franklin side and picnic, fix up a lunch and they’d have a picnic over there. It was sort of like courting all over again, I guess. [LAUGHTER] Only he didn’t have to worry about appearances, it was just the way things were. Franklin: Just had to worry about making sure he wasn’t in the women’s barracks after closing. Edmon Daniels: Right. The deal of it was that the ladies would go in to clean up the barracks. Like I said, they said, people was working 24 hours a day. So my mother says one time the ladies went to clean up the barracks and some of the guys who probably—if they were working, let’s say, the graveyard, they were sleeping. And a couple of ladies got attacked. So after that, the army would go in and get all the guys out and the ladies would go in and clean, clean up the barracks. It was just a different way of life back then, because—you’ve got to remember, it was the ‘40s, and like my mother said, they ate three meal a day. Like I said, it was the ‘40s, and three meals a day to some people were rare and you ate as much as you want. I know, I remember reading someplace about how much ice cream they went through every day, but she said that some people would eat, eat, eat and put food— Vanis Daniels: Hide food. Edmon Daniels: Because they weren’t accustomed to eating like that. I mean, that was a different time. Franklin: Because they’d come out of the Depression and food may had been scarce. Edmon Daniels: You could just imagine that all of a sudden you got three meals a day, a place to sleep, and you’re working and you’re making more money than you ever made, and its costing very little and you can eat as much as you want. I forget how—it wasn’t very much that they-- Vanis Daniels: It was like $1.30 a week or something like that they paid, and that was for room and board. Franklin: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about like the wages. Do you know what your father was making back in Texas and how that compared to what he made at Hanford? Edmon Daniels: Well, they say that they was making a dollar and hour. Which was a lots of money and they was working like ten or twelve hours a day, five-and-a-half days a week sometimes. So that was a lots of money. Like I always tell him, I had a cousin, he passed a year before last I think; and I was talking to him a couple of years ago, and he said that he was making five dollars a week when he went in the service in ‘43. My mother was making fifty cent an hour. She was making almost as much in one day as he was making for a week. When you look at that, that’s just like, okay, like right now, you make $3,000 a week. I come along and I’m making ten times as that much. [LAUGHTER] And you’re working harder, and I’m not working that hard. Because my father said that they went to work and he said they was getting breaks and everything-- Vanis Daniels: Never heard of it before. Edmon Daniels: All of a sudden, wait, we can quit working, sit and talk for ten minutes or five minutes or whatever their breaks time was. It was just different out there, and, like I said, the money was great and you didn’t have to do that much with it. Franklin: Yeah. What did your father do at Hanford? Edmon Daniels: They was construction. They were just about probably 90% of the people out there, like I said, it was building. Franklin: Do you know what specifically he worked on building? Edmon Daniels: Well, they say that him and few other guys—they just loaded some guys up in the truck and took them out and they poured the first concrete for—was that N? D or whatever. Vanis Daniels: No, for B. Edmon Daniels: That’s what most of the men said, they worked construction. Building things, building all those things that they’re tearing down now. Franklin: Yeah. DuPont mostly recruited through the South, whites and blacks. And you talked a bit about segregation. Did your father ever share any experiences or stories with either of you of racism and segregation from whites during work or out at the construction camp? Edmon Daniels: Well, it was segregated, just—you go in, and they tell you which way to go. You can’t go here; you go here. So that’s a form of segregation right there. I look back and I say, you know, you’re building something to defend the U.S. and yet, at that time, I just call it, tell the truth, people were so dumb, they didn’t even want everything to be level. Vanis Daniels: Equal. Edmon Daniels: There was a guy over there who didn’t care what color you were. If he wanted to drop the bomb, he wasn’t going to go, well, I’m going to drop the bomb on these, but those guys, they’re okay, or those, they’re okay. You think about it and you think, how did people get along with themselves? But that’s the way they was brought up; that’s the way it had been for years, and stupidity grows. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: So there were no—well, actually, I’ll ask that question in a minute. Did your father or mother ever tell you what their first impressions were when they arrived here? Did they ever talk about that? Edmon Daniels: I remember my dad and my uncle talking about, when they first got here and they arrived in Pasco at the train station, and it was just completely different. Because they go out and they took them out to Hanford, and even the bus or whatever they went out there on, it was like, you go to the back, the others sit up font. There’s a story that I had a cousin who came here—him and my father came here from Utah—and the bus was full, so he sat down by the white guy in the white section and the guy told him to get the hell up out of there. He said he got up, pulled out his knife and sit on the guy’s lap and put it around his throat and he said, I’m riding and don’t you move or else I’ll cut your so-and-so and your throat. [LAUGHTER] It was something they was accustomed to, because that was their life, but you look at it now and say, god, that was so silly. It’s just something that you tell kids about now and they can’t imagine things like that going on. Franklin: Yeah, I understand that. So there was no children’s barracks, of course, so you guys—your parents didn’t bring you, right? You stayed in Texas. When did you come to the Tri-Cities? Vanis Daniels: ’51. Franklin: Both of you? Edmon Daniels: Yes. Franklin: How long did your parents stay at Hanford? Edmon Daniels: Boy, I really don’t know. Vanis Daniels: Let’s see. Edmon Daniels: I think they lived out here in the barracks. Vanis Daniels: Let’s see. I think Dad came back to Texas and I think he came back again in ‘47. I think it was ’47. Franklin: Where did you stay when your parents were out here? Vanis Daniels: His oldest sister, we stayed in our house, but his oldest sister and her kids moved in with us and she kept all of us while he and my mom and my older sister were here working. Franklin: Oh, your older sister came up here as well. What was her name? Vanis Daniels: Lily Mae. She was named after both of her grandparents. Franklin: Do you know, what did she do up here? Vanis Daniels: She worked in the-- Edmon Daniels: Same thing. Vanis Daniels: Barracks cleaning. Edmon Daniels: Cleaning and cooking. Franklin: Okay. What brought your parents back to the Tri-Cities in ‘51? Vanis Daniels: Work. Edmon Daniels: They were here before. Vanis Daniels: They were here already. Edmon Daniels: I think it was a way of—better living conditions and with—how many of us was it at that time, eight? Vanis Daniels: Well, seven of us because she had Marge with her, the baby. Edmon Daniels: It was a way that he could work and make more money and be able to do more things for his kids. Franklin: Eventually, in ’51, they were here and they moved you guys up here, they decided to move the family out of Texas? Vanis Daniels: Right. Franklin: Was your dad was still working at Hanford at that time? Vanis Daniels: Yes. Franklin: Okay. Was he still doing construction? Edmon Daniels: Yes. Franklin: How long did he work out at Hanford for? Vanis Daniels: He retired in ’64, I think it was. Edmon Daniels: No, it was before then, I mean, after then. Because when I started working out there he was still working for a few months. Vanis Daniels: He had retired, but he just went back and worked some. Edmon Daniels: I figured when you’re retired, you don’t go to work. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: You should tell that to a lot of the retired people I know. Edmon Daniels: Oh, yeah, now, I know, they retire and they bring them back to work. Vanis Daniels: You got to do something or else you not going to be here long. Franklin: Did he work construction the whole time? Vanis Daniels: Yes. Edmon Daniels: Yes. Franklin: What did he—did he kind of progress up through management or did his job change at all? Because I imagine that by ’64, he would’ve built up some seniority. Vanis Daniels: Well, the deal of it was, they worked for different contractors. They worked through the laborers’ union. And at times he was what they call the foreman of the job, he was the boss, and at other times, he was just a— Edmon Daniels: A regular worker. Vanis Daniels: A regular worker, common laborer. Franklin: Yeah. When you folks got here, what were your first impressions of Pasco and the Tri-Cities? Vanis Daniels: To get the hell away from here. [LAUGHTER] Where we were from was trees, there was greenery and everything. And you get here, and it’s the desert and all you see—I didn’t even know what a tumbleweed was. You learn real quick what they are! Edmon Daniels: Well, I really didn’t have an impression. Because, with both my parents being here, and me being the youngest, I didn’t—I don’t remember very much about Texas because I didn’t go any place; there was no one to take me. All my sisters who were older, being a little boy, they wasn’t going to take me any place. Because they might’ve been going to meet their little boyfriend or something and little boys will talk. So they wasn’t taking me with them. [LAUGHTER] So I don’t remember doing very much in Texas at all. Like I said, my parents was here. He remember a lot; I don’t remember anything, you know, about what all was going on. Because, like I said, I probably stayed home all the time and that was it. Franklin: Sure. So, really, when you got here, it was the first community you were part of or where you would have left the house a lot. Edmon Daniels: Yeah, well, like I said, we lived in this house here, my uncle lived here, my great-uncle lived next-door to us, my uncle lived—There wasn’t very many houses around anyway. Like he said, there was nothing but tumbleweeds and fields. Franklin: Where was the first place that you guys stayed at after you arrived? Vanis Daniels: We stayed a couple of weeks on Douglas. And a guy I never knew his name, we called him Radio—and he had started to build a house. He allowed people to put trailers on his property. That’s where my mom and dad was when we got here. My uncle had a house, my great-uncle had a house, and between the two trailers and the two houses, they were able to house us until my dad could find a place. And he found a house, Ms. Jensen, that was like a couple of blocks from Douglas there on Beech Street. She told him that he could buy her house. Well, he went to the bank to borrow some money to buy the house. And no bank in the Tri-Cities would loan him any money or anything. And he came back and he talked with Ms. Jensen. And she told him she say, you mean to tell me they won’t let you borrow money to buy a house? He says, no. She says, I’ll fix that. She went back to the bank and she opened an escrow account and she carried the mortgage herself. And that’s the way my dad was able to buy a house. Now, they would let you have money to buy an old raggedy car. You could buy all the old cars you wanted, but no money to buy a house. Pacific Finance, I never will forget that, was the only finance company that would loan money to blacks. And I don’t know what the interest rate they paid, but I know back then, the ceiling on interest in the State of Washington was 12%. I’m sure that all the blacks paid 12% on their loans from Pacific Finance. Franklin: Did the banks give your dad a reason why they wouldn’t lend to him? Vanis Daniels: The deal of it is, I don’t know what they told him, because I wasn’t there. But it was known that from 2nd Avenue, which was where the bus station was, east, they had what they called an imaginary red line and all the blacks had to live east of that line. And they just did not cater to you at all. Franklin: Right, because if you were in a redline district you could be denied an FHA loan-- Vanis Daniels: Right, any, personal loan or anything-- Franklin: Yes. That is a sad, sad part of American history. Edmon Daniels: Ugly part of American history. Franklin: It really is, it really is. Vanis Daniels: I just saw on the news this morning that they are getting the policemen in this country to go back to Washington D.C. and going through the black museum and learn something about what blacks have had to endure throughout the history of them being in this country. And maybe they will have a little more empathy. Franklin: Yeah. The house on Beech Street, did that become your permanent residence growing up? Vanis Daniels: Yes, mm-hmm. Franklin: What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Edmon Daniels: For me, there was no hard part, because, like I said, as a little kid—kids, they don’t worry about that that much. I mean, we just went and played and had fun. I never worried about, oh, that guy doesn’t look like me. That guy can throw a ball, we’re A-Okay. I didn’t worry about anything like that, and that’s the way it was. I went to Whittier Grade School and we would go visit everybody. If I went to one of the white kids’ house, his mother would fix us some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and we would eat. And if they came to my house, my mother would fix peanut butter and jelly sandwich and we’d sit around. Kids, we don’t worry about that when we’re that age. All you’re worried about is having fun and eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. [LAUGHTER] But you know, it’s just something that’s not part of your thinking. My thinking was, let’s have some fun. Not, worry about all that other stuff. That was that, though, so we had to worry about that. Vanis Daniels: Well, it was a little different for me. Franklin: Yeah, Vanis, what about you? You were a little—you were a teenager, right? Vanis Daniels: Thirteen. Franklin: You were thirteen? Vanis Daniels: Yes. Franklin: Yeah, what about for you? What was the hardest part? Vanis Daniels: The hardest part for me was the transition. And no one to help you sort of transition. Because in Texas, you went to all-black school; here everybody went to school together. When I go to Pasco High School—because I was a freshman—and you go to Pasco High School and the whole while I was in high school, the most blacks that was in the school at one time, I think, was like 13 or 14, in the whole school. To get thrown in with a bunch of white kids and they are prejudiced, too, a lot of them were, some of them wasn’t, but a lot of them were. And when they would get together, they would just be mean, like bullying. They would bully you. We, as the four or five black boys that were there at the school, we had to get together and shut them down. Because we’d get together and we’d say, okay, now you want to fight? Now it’s time. Let’s get it on. But as long as they could separate you and had you out there by yourself, and there’d be two or three of them, never one on one, then they would bully you and stuff. So it was kind of hard for me to transition. And even years and years later, I have actually talked white kids and white grownups that, if they walk in a place and there’s a lot of blacks, there the first thing they want to do, they say, we get scared we’re ready to get out of there. I say, well, what do you think about me? Everyplace I go, when I walk in the door, I’m the only black there. I say, do you see me running? No! [LAUGHTER] Even on my job—and I retired in 1999. I don’t think I worked but one job in all those years, other than construction, that it was more than one black on the job at any one time. I worked in inhalation toxicology for Battelle Northwest and there were three of us. But other than that… Franklin: Sorry, just writing. Just trying to write this down real quick. How big was the house on Beech that you guys ended up living in and then how big was your family? Vanis Daniels: It’s five bedrooms, kitchen, dining room and it was-- Edmon Daniels: One bath. Vanis Daniels: One bathroom and eight of us kids! [LAUGHTER] Well, no, I take that back. It was nine of us in that house. Nine kids in that house. Edmon Daniels: Was there? Vanis Daniels: Mm-hmm, because Daniel was here. Edmon Daniels: Yeah. And then most of the time, as I remember, that there was always some relatives who would come up and they would stay there. Because I can remember, we had a roll-away bed and we would bring it into the living room. I slept on the roll-away for quite a few years, because it seemed like it was always an adult cousin or somebody-- Vanis Daniels: Or somebody. Edmon Daniels: --living in the house with us. Because if they came up from Texas or wherever, if they didn’t have any place to live, they would come and live with us, the cousins. The house, it was always full of relatives. Because I can remember just lots of cousins who would come up and they would go to work. I never thought about it then because on payday they would give me a quarter. Hey, I had lots of money. [LAUGHTER] It was just natural for me to have someone else there besides my brothers and my sisters. And if I kept a quarter on my pocket or whatever they would give me. At that time a quarter, you could buy lots of stuff with a quarter. Now if you got a dollar you can’t spend it because you got to have some more money to spend it. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Who else lived in the community in east Pasco? Was it primarily African Americans? Vanis Daniels: Yes. Edmon Daniels: Well, at one time it wasn’t. But mostly, that’s where the blacks lived, they lived in Pasco. But when we first moved there, we were the only blacks on the block. But there was only four houses on the block. I know, in front of us and straight on down the street, there was a trailer camp—which we called it a trailer court, and it was black. But up the street, our house is still there—my sister live in it—and a couple other houses that are still—from a three-block area, there are just a couple other houses that are still there. Vanis Daniels: Three. I think it’s three in all that are still there. There are houses where houses were. Edmon Daniels: Yeah, they built some new houses there. But we lived here, my cousin lived across the alley. But that was white families lived up that way-- Vanis Daniels: Yeah, to the north. Edmon Daniels: Yeah, and like I said, it was very well segregated. And then the whites started moving out. And most of the blacks even moved out, later, later on. But I would go to school and walk up the street to Tollivers’, which was a white family, and we’d walk to school. We didn’t worry about, she looks different than I do, he looks different than I do. We just was kids and having a good time. Franklin: Yeah. Were most of your neighbors and people you knew also transplants from somewhere else other than the Tri-Cities? Vanis Daniels: Oh yeah. Edmon Daniels: Most of the people at that time was. Franklin: Were there many families with children or extended family in your neighborhood, like grandparents and such or was it mostly immediate family? Edmon Daniels: You know, mostly it was-- Vanis Daniels: I don’t remember. Edmon Daniels: I know the Tollivers, it was just two girls and the mother and father. And right next-door to them was Leroy, his mother-- Vanis Daniels: He had a sister, too. Edmon Daniels: Yeah. And, god-- Vanis Daniels: I can’t remember the name of the people that lived where Gilbert’s house is, and she had a couple kids. Edmon Daniels: At that time, you don’t be asking where you from. At that age, I could care less where you were from. Vanis Daniels: But 90% of the people were transplants. Franklin: How would you describe life in the community? Vanis Daniels: Terrible. Edmon Daniels: From my viewpoint, it was A-Okay. Franklin: That’s quite a divergence. Edmon Daniels: Yeah. He was a little older, so he—but from my viewpoint, it was just fun. I’m a kid, I’m having fun. Vanis Daniels: You’re, what would you call it of your environment. But we had no streets, we had no street lights, you had no sewer. The only thing we had was running water. You had enough electricity, 100 amps to have lights in the house. We had oil heat, we had a woodstove to begin with, and Copeland Lumber, so wood and coal which was right on 1st and Columbia, all the way up to 2nd and Columbia there in Pasco now. That was Copeland Lumber Company. My dad would buy wood and of course my mom was accustomed to cooking on a woodstove anyways because in Texas that’s what she had. Then about, I don’t know when it was exactly, my dad bought her an electric stove and he had to have a guy come out and update the electricity in the house in order to be able to have enough kilowatts for that stove. And she got the electric stove, she got a Maytag dishwasher with the old hand wringer on it-- Edmon Daniels: Not dishwasher, clothes washer. Vanis Daniels: Clothes washer, I’m trying to say, not dishwasher. And those were the two modern appliances that she had for a long time. And eventually, because we had an icebox even, if you know what an icebox is. Franklin: I do! Vanis Daniels: Okay. And a guy named Junior Philips, that’s we what called him, Junior. Edmon Daniels: No, we called him Iceboy Junior. Vanis Daniels: Iceboy Junior, I remember that. But he would go out to the icehouse, there, right down form City View Cemetery there on the railroad and they made ice down there. Edmon Daniels: Hobo jungle. [LAUGHTER] That’s what it was called. Vanis Daniels: And he went down there and get ice and he delivered ice all around to the people in the neighborhood. And he would come every day if you needed ice, you—I think it was probably a half a cent a pound or something like that. He made a living doing that at first. And when he died, he had retired from Burlington Northern as a diesel mechanic. But it was just one of those things where you lived with the hand you were dealt is about what it amounts to. Edmon Daniels: Think of the progress we’ve made. You probably don’t know anything about it anyway. Vanis Daniels: She don’t. Edmon Daniels: Like the milkman coming around, have you ever seen a milk man? Vanis Daniels: You haven’t? Edmon Daniels: What about the guy who come—see, we had people who would come around and sell ice cream, popsicles and stuff like that. You could get a popsicle for a nickel and the popsicle popped in two, I think they still have them around. Vanis Daniels: They do. Edmon Daniels: Yeah, but that was five cent. I don’t know what they are now. Vanis Daniels: Pop was a nickel. Edmon Daniels: I remember when pop went up to ten cent. Everything just went up all of a sudden. I always tell people, when I was a kid a ten-cent candy bar, I’d put it in my back pocket and I’d eat it, it would stick all the way up. We have seen so much and I’ve seen so much in my lifetime of just progress. I tell people about my grandkids now. When the computers came in, we was working then, the secretary came down she said, Edmon, say, you want a typewriter? She said, I got a new one and we’re getting rid of all of them. She gave me a new typewriter, and I took it home. A few years ago, my grandkids, we were sitting in there and we went into the garage. And he said, granddaddy, what’s that? [LAUGHTER] They knew it looks sort of like a computer but they couldn’t figure out what was that thing and who it was just a typewriter! Franklin: Where’s the screen?! [LAUGHTER] Edmon Daniels: I said, man, I have seen so much in my lifetime, you know, just changing. I remember in high school, I took typing and most of them was standard. We had a couple electrical typewriters, but most of them were just standard typewriters. Franklin: That’s actually pretty progressive. For taking typewriting when you guys would’ve went to school. Edmon Daniels: Yeah. It’s just, I can say I’ve seen so much. I remember, everyone had one phone, well, not everyone had a phone, either. Vanis Daniels: That’s true. Edmon Daniels: But we had a phone and I know the neighbors sometime would come over to call a cab if he wanted to go someplace. If you could put five people in a cab, and my sister sometimes would catch a cab to go downtown and I think it was like fifty cents-- Vanis Daniels: That’s all it was, fifty cents. Edmon Daniels: And if you could ten people in there, it was still fifty cents. And I just look at the progress of things that I have seen. I can just, because my grandkids they just look and they say, boy. I know working at Hanford we had some of the first of everything like the pagers. We had pagers out there before anyone else had pagers. These phones here. We had phones out there. I was walking around with a phone a long time ago. You could make the local calls because if—I worked days, graves and swing, and on graveyard, I always had—because going out into the outer areas, you may run into something and you need to—so I could just call patrol. I just look and I say, man, I have seen so much in my lifetime that I always wonder what will my grandkids see in their lifetime? What all will change? It’s a great thing. Franklin: Especially since, Vanis, you had mentioned that when you guys got here, there were no sewers, right, in east Pasco. They had them—and you only had enough electricity to power lights at first. And you said your mom was cooking on a woodstove and heating with oil. How long did she have the woodstove for? Vanis Daniels: If I’m trying to remember-- Edmon Daniels: It wasn’t that long. Vanis Daniels: it wasn’t that long, but it was—in the ‘50s, because the guy that upgraded the house as far as electricity go, my mom and all of the women in the neighborhood, including me, worked in the grape fields, the mint fields, the bean fields, and all that stuff. That’s what the black women—and they would take me with them-- Edmon Daniels: The kids with them. Vanis Daniels: --and they would allow me to work with them because the women were there. Miss Anna B. Beasley, I never will forget it, we was right here where the bridge come across Richland here, I-82, was a mint field and I went to work with them that morning. I could drive, see, so I drove everybody to work. And they say, well, what are you going to do after you drop us off? I said, well, I don’t know. She say, you want to work? I said, yes. So we got out and we talked to—what’s the family name that lived there, Edmon? Their last name? Edmon Daniels: Harris. Vanis Daniels: The Harrises. They still there now, the descendants are. She talked to him and asked him if I could work with them. He looked at me, he said, no, he said, he’s too young. He can’t keep up with you. And Ms. Anna B. Beasley told him, said, if you let him go to work, we’ll make sure he keep up with us. She said, because if he don’t work with us then he have to go all the way back and then come back and get us. He says, okay, he can work with you, but he better keep up. So we go out and we are hoeing mint. Ms. Anna B. was on this side of me and my aunt was on this side. And they’d be walking along, they’d be talking, and every once in a while, they’d reach over on my row, in order for me to keep up. [LAUGHTER] I was making a whole dollar an hour, and with that dollar an hour, I was able to buy all my school clothes, from socks, shoes, underwear—because you could go to JC Penny’s and you could buy jeans for $2.98 or $3.98 a pair. Edmon Daniels: No, it wasn’t $3.98, because-- Vanis Daniels: It wasn’t very much. Edmon Daniels: I bought them for less than that when I-- Vanis Daniels: And a shirt was for a $1.98 and some cheaper than that. And, man, I could dress as good as I wanted to, going to school. Edmon Daniels: I know, because I could go down to Penny’s as a little kid, and for five dollars I could get me a pair of jeans and a shirt and get some change back. Like I say, everything was—it was the way it was. Like, I had three or four pair of jeans, and shirts and everything, underwear. Things had to be cheap, because wasn’t nobody making the big bucks. The big bucks. But I can remember when my parents had the electricity upgraded. A black guy lived down the street from us, he was an electrician. He came and did all of the work, but then they had to come out and inspect it. And the guy came, and he was there with him. I remember this very well. And the inspector asked who did it and he said, I did. And the inspector said, well, it won’t pass. He said someone will have to come and do it. So he left and the guy said, I know why it won’t pass. He says, because I’m a colored guy, he said I’ll get my friend, who was a white guy, to come. I remember this, I don’t know why it sticks to my head so, he went and got his friend, I don’t remember if the next day or a couple of days passed, but his friend came. He looked at it, and they had been in the service together, he said everything is perfect. He say, I’ll just tell him that I did it. The inspector come out later and the guy’s there. He hadn’t touched a thing, and he said, oh yeah, it’s okay. And it passed. That was one of my first inklings about, okay, you’re limited to what you could do, although you do it the same way this guy does. But all of a sudden it passed, and he didn’t do anything to it at all. He just came and say, everything look okay. Just the appearance. Thank goodness we’re over that. Franklin: Did your family attend church? Vanis Daniels: Yes. Edmon Daniels: Yes. Franklin: What church did you attend? Vanis Daniels: St. James CME Methodist. Edmon Daniels: Yep, Christian Methodist. Franklin: What role did the church play in the community? Vanis Daniels: You mean--? Edmon Daniels: Well, I can remember that most of the ministers, they were just ordinary people, but they were sort of—ministers were sort of like here. Because I know at the church, when I was a little kid, I would go to Sunday school, and all of the older women, they would have us sit down and be quiet. I didn’t want to be quiet, I didn’t want to sit there. And I know this one lady, she would make you sit down and be quiet. Because kids were supposed to be seen and not heard. What they would be talking about a lot of times, I had a different idea about what was what. [LAUGHTER] I don’t know if I was right or wrong. But we had a minister who, he never went to school, he couldn’t read or write, but he was a minister, he was the associate minister. I always wondered, he can’t read the Bible, but someone had told him all about it. And on first Sunday you have communion, and I did not like taking communion, because the minister, he was up preaching and [COUGHING] And then communion come around and he’d come and bless and then he’d pick up and he wanted to put it in your mouth when he has coughed his hand and everything. Then as soon as—I would take off and get there. And pretty soon, she would grab me. You got to stay here! It was called bread and wine. It was grape juice, I guess; it wasn’t wine. Man, I just did not like that because I figured, god, the guy has been coughing on his hand and he’s going to pick up this bread and put it in my mouth. I don’t think I’m being blessed. [LAUGHTER] I just had a different view of what was what at that time. It was lots of older people and lots of these people were born right after slavery, really. I mean, they was 80 or something like that. Vanis Daniels: The deal of it was, most of them were from the South. In the South, you either was able to own your own land or you sharecrop. One of the two. Most of it was farming, and you worked six days a week, five-and-a-half at least, and the Sundays was the only time that they had to socialize. The transition from there here didn’t change there. Right to this day, they still go to church on Sunday, because everybody works during the week, and that’s the time that they do a lot of socializing. If you look at the world around you, right today, the most segregation there is in this country right now is the churches. Edmon Daniels: Sunday morning, Sundays. Vanis Daniels: You still got black church here, white church there. I belong to the St. James CME Methodist Church; there’s a United Methodist Church right here on Road 34, 36 and Court Street. Now, we are all affiliated together; there is no difference in our doctrine. But I go to St. James; whites go to United Methodist. I mean, I don’t know the reason other than-- Edmon Daniels: They say the most segregated time in the U.S. right now is Sunday morning. Vanis Daniels: Well, that’s the truth. [LAUGHTER] Edmon Daniels: Because everyone go this way. And if you think about it, it is. It is Sunday morning. Now, Sunday afternoon they might all meet and watch a football game or something. They all yelling for the Seahawks. It’s just a different way of life. Still, we still have some hang-ups and everything. Vanis Daniels: Oh, yeah. Edmon Daniels: Yup, we have lots of hang-ups. Franklin: Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including sports and food, that people brought from the places they came from? Edmon Daniels: Well, I really—my father was baseball player. And in Texas, he was sort of like an idol. Everyone knew my father was a baseball player. I remember, I went to Texas once and this guy, he came up to me and he said, hello, he said, you’re Vanis’ son! I said, yes, I am. He say, I remember you when you was a little baby. I said, oh. He said, you play baseball? I said, yes. He say, are you good? I said, yes, I’m good. He said, you’re not as good as your father. I said, I’m not as good as my--? He said, if you was as good as your father, you would be in the majors. He said, he couldn’t play in the majors because of his color. [LAUGHTER] But you go down, and most of the people now are passed away, but they would all talk about my father playing baseball. And my father had black baseball teams here in the ‘40s before they integrated baseball—he had black baseball team out at Hanford there. But I guess, I don’t remember anything about the game, but he was in Pasco, and he was an old man then, and I remember him and my uncle suiting up for the game. But I don’t remember anything about the game. But everyone used to tell me about how great he was. And the only reason why he wasn’t playing in the majors was the color issue. And I said, okay, I guess he must’ve been pretty good. [LAUGHTER] Vanis Daniels: He was. He was good. I know, because I saw him play. And anytime he came to the bat, there were people in the stand bet that he would get a hit. They would make bets that he would get a hit. Edmon Daniels: Like I said, things have changed so much, and it’s all for the better. All for the better. Franklin: Yeah. What about food traditions? Since so many folks are from the South, I assume that Southern cooking came up North with folks, right? What kinds of foods would be pretty typical in your house growing up? Vanis Daniels: Well, let’s see. My dad was the type of a person that he say, when he was growing up, they ate what they had or could get. He did not buy meat with bones in it. He wanted all meat. He wanted no bones. He said, I ate enough of that. Chicken feet, which you see in the store now, which is a delicacy anymore, he didn’t want any of that. He didn’t want the inside of any animal. Edmon Daniels: The guts. Vanis Daniels: None of that. He said, I had enough of that when I was a kid. I didn’t like then; my kids are not going to eat it. But we would do ribs, we would have roast, we’d have pork chops, we’d have steak occasionally. And fried chicken. My mom mostly would fix a roast, some kind of pot roast, or something like that. Because I didn’t eat chicken. And that’s another thing: we were spoiled. After five girls, I’m the oldest boy, and then him, and then we had a younger brother that passed away in ’68. But the girls was all gone, so there wasn’t anybody else home but us. And we were spoiled, because my mom would fix what I wanted to eat. She would also fix what he wanted to eat, and then my dad he ate whatever she fixed for us. [LAUGHTER] Edmon Daniels: No, there was a lots of—because I know, chitlins—you know what chitlins are? Franklin: Why don’t you tell me. Vanis Daniels: They are pig innards, intestines. Franklin: Oh, right. Edmon Daniels: They are called chitlins and sweet potato pie. Chitlins—I don’t like chitlins. But we would have a soul food dinner every year. And we’d cook chitlins and more whites would eat up more of the chitlins than other people would. I know they would be eating and say, man, what is this? And I would tell them what it was, ooh, these are good. How come you’re not—I said, I don’t like them. I had some friends over one time for dinner, me and my brother and my wife and a couple of others. My wife cooked a sweet potato pie. And after the dinner, Jim, a white guy, said, man, that’s the best pumpkin pie I ever had, and we started laughing. That’s not pumpkin pie! He said, well, what is it then? She said, potato pie. He said, well, bring me another slice. He said, ooh, that is good, he said, I’ve never had any of that. So my wife made him a couple of those. And I had some friends over once and she made them some. One time—we always had Thanksgiving dinner and everything out at work—and I took, my mother cooked some potato pies, and I took them out, and they just felt in love with them. After that, every time, they would say, hey, are you going to bring some of that? I guess southern cooking, like you said, the greens and things—I don’t eat green I don’t-- Vanis Daniels: He’s not a vegetable eater at all. Edmon Daniels: I love steaks and baked potatoes. [LAUGHTER] It’s just—well, they cooked back then, they cooked what was there. A lots of the meats and things—I guess my dad would go out, like, rabbits, squirrels, raccoons and stuff like that, they would kill them and cook it. That’s what all the people did like that. Franklin: Your dad kind of wanted a different standard, right? Obviously, it sounds like he grew up really poor, kind of eating, scavenging what was available. But with you guys, it was—because he was making better money, so he could choose—and you guys kind of benefited from that. Vanis Daniels: I can remember being a little boy during Second World War. They would send me to the store. Beef was something hard to get ahold of. The man at the store would tell me to tell my mom that he had beef coming in on a certain date and to let him know what part of the beef she wanted and he would hold it for her. And that’s the way we got beef most of the time. Pork was easy to get, you know what I mean. Edmon Daniels: Everybody had pigs. Vanis Daniels: You could—black people, well, in the South, I’ll just put it—because everybody knew how to do it. They killed hogs, we called them—pigs—in the fall of the year. Then they cured the meat and you don’t see any of it here anymore because they’ve gotten fancy with it. But in the South, if you go back there now, you can go in the smokehouse, take your knife with you, and slice you off a slice of ham. You don’t need to heat it, you don’t need to cook it, you don’t need to do anything except eat it. It’s just cured just that good. And that smell, the aroma, oh man, it’s something else. So pigs was easy; beef was a little different. So you just got beef occasionally, and you had to buy it and cook it within a day or so after you got it. And chickens, well, that’s easy, too, because they ran around on the yard. Edmon Daniels: Chicken and eggs. Franklin: When did Juneteenth start here? Because that was brought up by—that’s primarily a Texas event. When did that start here? Edmon Daniels: I started in ’78, I think. Franklin: You started it? Vanis Daniels: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay. Edmon Daniels: At first I called it a Fun Day, because—I don’t know. I was at a funeral one of my parents’ friends. I remember all of the older people were just sitting around crying and talking about it, hugging each other. And I was said, man, I’d like my parents to have a happy time, get together with all these people without looking down at one of their friends. I told my wife, I said, I’m going to have us something, I said, at the park. We’ll just sit around and let these people come and enjoy themself, smiling, laughing and everything. I talked to my brother, my wife and my sister and a couple of other people. I went to the churches first, and they said, they didn’t think they wanted to do it, because they didn’t think no one would come, because I was going to have the kids play softball and everything. I went ahead with my wife. And I got some teams—it was girls’ teams—and I went and I rented all—let’s see, think I had cotton candy, popcorn, I rented all that stuff—hot dog machine. I tell him, I think everybody in town was there, most out of curiosity. Because they was wondering what was going on. And everyone enjoyed themself. I remember one guy came up a couple of years later and said, you should do this two or three times a year, he said. I just enjoy—I get to see all the people and everything and everyone’s happy and having fun. Mostly, we was giving the stuff away. I think cotton candy might’ve been 25 cents, well, everything was just cheap. We still made lots of money and everyone was there. I had just started the Little League program in Pasco, so I had the little boys play. I remember my father was behind the backstop and another man, Mr. Johnson. I remember them saying, look at these little kids. They all got baseball uniforms. And I remember Mr. Johnson saying he was 20-something years old before he had a uniform, and my dad said, yep, I had one a little earlier because I started playing sooner. And they were—just seeing kids in uniform, they were happy as could be. And it’s still going on now and we have people coming over from Seattle to Spokane and all over. It’s not as big as Cinco de Mayo, but people show up and we have a good time and you get to see a lot of people. Franklin: Yeah. When did it become Juneteenth? When did you decide to kind of bring those two together? Edmon Daniels: I think I was talking with my uncles and cousins and they said, why don’t you just call it Juneteenth? My uncle was telling me about—he was educated man, school teacher—about what Juneteenth was all about. You know, in my head it seemed like I can remember something about Juneteenth in Texas, but I know I can’t. It’s just that people have talked about it because they said my father and his baseball teams always played baseball on Juneteenth and they would barbecue and everything and just have a big get-together. Vanis Daniels: Ice-cream, barbecue. Edmon Daniels: I can imagine that people back then enjoyed those things more, because if you were a man, you worked five, six days a week. And that’s what you did. There wasn’t very much time for fun. Franklin: You also worked longer hours back then, too. Edmon Daniels: Sunrise to sunset, they said. They said, from can to can’t. From the moment you can see to the moment you can’t, you worked. [LAUGHTER] So to get those days off and be able to enjoy yourself was a rarity. Where I worked eight hours a day and I tell people, I say, I never went home tired, I never went home dirty and yet I never missed a payday. My father never got a paid vacation in his life, and all of my vacations were paid for. And I came up just different from my parents. My wife—I remember when my wife went to work and people was telling me—the older people—she doesn’t need to work; she needs to stay home. You make enough money. I said, well, we could use some more. I worked all holidays. Because I worked five days a week, no matter what. Like, if I was off on a Monday and Tuesday or Tuesday and Wednesday—if I was off Tuesday and Wednesday, I worked Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. Seven days you would work, but two of those days would be for the next week. I remember, I was going to work for Thanksgiving and we would always have a big Thanksgiving dinner, the family, and I had to work. We had this guy living with us named Grover. He said, why do you have to go to work today? You shouldn’t have to work today; today is a holiday. You need to be home. I said, Grover, you know how much money I make today? And I told him. And my dad said, you make more money today than I ever made in a whole week. [LAUGHTER] I said, that’s why I’m going to work. You know, just compare to people my parents’ age and us growing up, things progressed so much that you wouldn’t believe it. That’s why I am so thankful to be born when I was born. I always say, man, I wish I was three years old now, just to see what the future is going to bring. [LAUGHTER] Yep. Franklin: We talked a bit about some of the opportunities that were available here that weren’t where your parents came from, like wages. I assume the housing—was the housing better here than where your parents came from, or was that a better opportunity for them? Vanis Daniels: Well, housing was better there at first than it was here. Because people lived in anything from cardboard shacks to shack-shacks or whatever you want to call them. It was a lady named Mrs. Haney, she owned a whole block right there on Oregon Street. She had little cabins on there, she had-- Edmon Daniels: Trailers. Vanis Daniels: Trailers, and all that stuff on there. She and her oldest son would go around on the first of the month and collect the rent from those trailers and things. Franklin: What about educational opportunities? Were there educational opportunities available here that weren’t available in Texas? Vanis Daniels: No. It was better back there as far as education go. Because once you got out of school back there, they expected you to go to some type of college. There was Wiley College, Bishop College—you may have heard of Bishop, because Wiley and Bishop eventually went together. Franklin: Were those HBUs or HBCs? Historically black? Vanis Daniels: Right. A few went to Grambling—you’ve heard of Grambling in Louisiana. I’m trying to think; there’s another one—Prairie View. You were expected to go to college. Most of the blacks went into education. In fact, one of my cousins and best friends still is there in Texas. He taught school all the way from the time he got out of college, he retired then he went back and taught some more and he retired again, and he’s still there. That was the primary deal for them back there, education. Here, when we were in school, I know several girls, I don’t know no boys, but several girls that were straight-A students. Never got on the honor roll, they never had an offer for any college or anything. The opportunity was not there here like it was back there. One of my friends that passed away last year, I did an interview with her and her dad and she said that when she was in school—because she’s an underclassman under me—that the teacher told her that the best she could hope for was to be like a nurse’s aid or something like that. She say, I resent that lady ‘til this day. I don’t know what teacher it was, but it was over here in Pasco High they told her that. Franklin: Who was that? Vanis Daniels: Her name was Bessie May Williams-Fields. When she died last year, she was a doctor—don’t ask me of what—but in California. So she proved the lady wrong. Edmon Daniels: Things was just different. I remember I went to Texas with my parents when my grandfather passed. My dad and I went to a little store and we were knocking—it was afterhours. And the guy came to the door and he said, Vanis, it’s good to see you. I’m sorry to hear about—my grandfather’s name was Tucker. So he said, I’m sorry to hear about Tuck. He said, it’s good to see you, but I hate to see you in this occasion. We were sitting there talking and he looks down and says, who’s that, Vanis? My dad says, that’s my son. He says, oh, that’s your son. And he just said, Vanis, I hear the colored kids and white kids go to school together up there. Dad say, yeah. He say, how do they get along? And I remember, my dad said, ask him. He play with them all day long! And the guy says, how do you guys get along? And I’m sitting up there thinking, what kind of a question is this? I said, we get along okay. And I remember him saying, Vanis, I don’t think that’ll ever happen here. I just don’t never think that coloreds and whites will go to school together, I just don’t think it’ll ever happen. Next time I go down there, my cousin is the principal of the high school. And we go up to see him, he said, you know, we didn’t have any problems integrating the school here. Because it’s a little community; everybody knew everybody. He said, everything went smooth. And I said, oh. He said, we didn’t have any problems. And here he was the principal; years before, the guy didn’t even think they would ever go to school together. He was the principal of this big school. I said, man, how times have changed. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Life is funny. Franklin: In what ways were opportunities here limited because of segregation or racism? Vanis Daniels: Hanford was the biggest employee around here and I can’t remember the man name that started Hanford right at the moment, but anyway, he said that blacks could help build, but they couldn’t work in operations. And that stuck around until, I think, ‘52 or ’53, somewhere in there was the first blacks that I knew of to work out here. And they were very few until ‘66 or so, somewhere around-- Edmon Daniels: The ‘60s. Vanis Daniels: In the ‘60s anyway, before they would ever hire any into operations. I went to work out there in June of ‘66 and the lady that trained me in metallurgy had an eighth grade education. I had a cousin to go out there, and they put him in metallurgy. He didn’t want to listen to the lady, because he had a high school education and she only had an eighth grade education. He say, she can’t tell me nothing. [LAUGHTER] And he quit because he did not want her telling him what to do. Well, the lady had been working in metallurgy for like 25 years. Why can’t she tell you what to do? Franklin: Right. She does know a lot about metal. You’d hope, after-- Vanis: Me myself, when I went to work out there, I went to work as a janitor. The whole 300 Area was mostly black janitors, very few whites. One day, I was working in 325, and I was going down the hall and I saw this black guy. He was coming up the hallway, he met me, he spoke and he kept on going. Well, I noticed him in the weeks afterwards. He never did fraternize with any of the workers at all; he would just be coming through and he was observing. When I found out what was going on—I had a supervisor named Ralph, and he said you take care of the office while I’m gone, talking to me, he say, you take the phone calls if anybody call for a job you give them an estimate on what we can do the job for. He say, I’m going upstairs for a meeting. He said, I’ll be back, when I get back I’ll tell you about it. He say, because some heads are going to roll up there today. I had no idea what he was talking about, but he left and went to the meeting and it was all of our supervisors. There were the supervisors of the janitors, of power operators and what else, Edmon? Edmon Daniels: Probably RCT-- Vanis Daniels: Yeah, electricians anyway, they had a big meeting upstairs in the building. This guy was from Washington, D.C. He had gone around the area there and he had observed, and he got up in the meeting. Well, everybody was surprised because they didn’t know what he was there for, either. He says, I’m from the government from Washington, D.C. and I’ve been observing what’s going on around here. He say, you cannot tell me that you got this many black people and the only thing they could do is janitorial work. He says starting today, not tomorrow, today, you’re going to get some of those people out of janitorial and put them in other jobs, because I know they can handle it as well of some of the others I’ve seen here. That day they started transferring people out of janitorial into different jobs. Because up until that time, I think, Edmon was working in air balance at the time, wasn’t you? Edmon Daniels: I think I was in operations. Vanis Daniels: Operations. We had a guy named Roy Howard that was one of the managers in inhalation toxicology. That’s about—well, it was a couple more but I can’t remember all of them, but other than that everyone was janitorial, including-- Edmon Daniels: Joe Jackson, he was in-- Vanis Daniels: Yeah, he was a draftsman. And they promoted me from janitorial to decommission, decontamination is what it was. We cleaned all of the radioactive material and handled all the waste radioactive material in the 300 Area, including the hot water, we called it. They had the sinks and where they did experiments and washed everything up it went down and it came down to 340, which was great big swimming pools and it was four of them. Only they was much bigger than swimming pools. We had four basins. You started with number one basin and when it filled, you took samples of it, took it up to 326 and they analyzed it. If it was clean enough, it was let out into the cooling ponds and then it would leech from the cooling ponds back into the Columbia River. If it was hot, contamination-wise, then you held it, you called in the teamsters—we had a big shed with about six tanker trucks in it, and you started pumping that liquid out of the ponds into those tanker trucks and the tanker trucks took that out to Hanford right where they were having problems with some of those tanks now. It went out there and it went into those tanks. Meanwhile, by us being decontamination we had to get in that basin and clean it where you could use it again. You didn’t stop the water from coming, you didn’t shut anything down, you just, if it was basin number two you just skipped from one to three and kept on receiving water. But now you did more sampling in basin three because basin two was hot. So you had to sample basin three every 30 minutes and they would analyze it until they got back down to a level where you could run it out. The trenches was called the 318 trenches. And then it leached back into the Columbia River. We did everything when they opened the sodium reactor up out at the 300 Area. Franklin: The FFTF? Vanis Daniels: Mm-hmm. They didn’t know how sodium would react in water. And as long as, when you put the sodium in and the reactor’s running, it’s liquid. So you don’t have any problems. But when it’s shut down, it gels. Now you got to figure out, how are you going to get that back out of those pipes and get them going again. We took sodium anywhere from a gallon container to a 55-gallon-drum-full, and we took them out to those cooling ponds. DOE and everybody was there and we had a zip line, something like that, and you hook it up here and you run it out and once you got over the water you have a tripwire and you’d let it fall into the pond. Then you had to stand back, because you had no idea which way it was going to go. [LAUGHTER] But we did all of that and we started with a gallon container and we went all the way up to a 55-gallon drum. Whenever that sodium hit the water it’s like, oh, man—and you don’t know which way it’s going. One of the guys from DOE, because we were behind shields on top of that, and one of the guys from DOE in one of the five-gallon containers, it came out of the container and landed on shore. We’re trying to tell him not to go down and get it. He goes down there, well, when he tries to pick it up it’s just slippery. Because he was going to pick it up and throw it back in the pond, he thought. When he picked it up, he picked it up and it slipped out of his hand and it landed right in the edge of the water. Well, it just so happened-- [VIDEO CUTS] [camera operator] We’re rolling. Franklin: I wanted to ask, what do you know about your parents’ reaction to learning that their work had contributed to the development of the atomic bomb? Edmon Daniels: I never heard—they didn’t talk about it. Vanis Daniels: They were surprised, because at the time that they were doing the construction out there, like I said, they did construction. They may have suspected something if they had been in operations or something like that. But everything was so hush-hush that even the construction workers could not talk about what they did. And I can remember, like Edmon is talking about, going down there to the tavern on Lee Boulevard. I can remember when they would put guys in there before the people got off work and they had beer in front of them, I don’t know whether they drank it or not. But anyway, when the guys come in after they got off work for beer or something, their job was to engage them in conversation to try to find out just what they would tell about their jobs. Edmon Daniels: You wasn’t supposed to talk about-- Vanis Daniels: Your wasn’t supposed about-- Edmon Daniels: Even the minor little things of what you did at all. Vanis Daniels: Anything you did-- Edmon Daniels: Because I know at one time, guys would keep their badges on all the time, you went to Battelle you go and they would have badges. They said when you walk out the 300 gate to get into your car, you take your badge off, you put it back on when you come back. Because they said there was always someone, somewhere around who wanted to know what was going on. There were people right here in the Tri-Cities who would tell you, ain’t no way in hell I would work out there, you don’t know what’s out there, which we didn’t. But I said, well, I’m still here, everything is still working. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: That leads me to my next question, because you two worked on the Hanford Site after World War II and so I’m wondering, how did you feel at the time about working on or allied with the development of nuclear weapons? Vanis Daniels: Well, you know, at the time, I guess I never really gave it a lot of thought. One of the things I was appreciative was the fact that I had a job, a steady job, I got a paycheck 52 weeks out of the year, I got a vacation every year, paid, and I was allowed to raise my kids and do things with my kids that my mom and dad was never able to do with me. It’s a funny story, but my son was probably four years old, and we were in Kansas. We were heading to Alabama because my first wife was from Alabama and we were headed to Alabama. We stopped in the restaurant for breakfast. We were sitting there and they kind of put us in the middle of the room. The place was crowded. And we were there and we had ordered breakfast they brought it to us and everything. We were eating and my daughter says, Daddy? I said, what is it? She said there’s something wrong with my bacon. I looked, I said, oh, there’s nothing wrong with your bacon. She said, yes it is, I keep hearing something. And she took a fork and she raises the bacon up; great, big old fly in her bacon. With the place being crowded as it was, I didn’t want to alarm the whole restaurant. It was a young man that waited on us. And I got his attention, I called him over and I showed it to him. I said, we can’t eat this like that. He says, oh, I’m sorry, I’ll take it. He took it away and brought some more bacon. Well, my son is four years old and he’s sitting and looking at that. And just as loud as he could, I don’t know what you’re worried about but it’s only more meat! I said, boy! [LAUGHTER] Edmon Daniels: Fly and bacon. Vanis Daniels: Yeah, see, I was able to take them. Every other year, we’d go back to visit her parents and grandparents and stuff. And we’d go to California, we’d go to Disneyland, we’d go to Reno. I was able to take them and they could see things and do things. When they were able to walk and talk, then I taught them how to read a menu and all that, so when we went to a restaurant they ordered their own food. I didn’t order it for them; they ordered what they wanted to eat. And stuff like that. That was one of the advantages I was able to do for them that my parents weren’t able to do for me. Because like my brother and I were talking here the other day, and I don’t think until after my dad was retired--or anyway, we was grown up; he may not have been retired—but we were all grown up. We took them to dinner and to lunch and to breakfast and to stuff like that, but I don’t think before then they ever went out to eat. Edmon Daniels: No. It just wasn’t something most people didn’t do. Like you go to downtown Pasco, they didn’t go to the Top Hat or any of those places and say, come on, let’s go to dinner. Their vacation was they’d go back to Texas, because that’s where my father’s fathers was and all of them. Vanis Daniels: Aunts and— Edmon Daniels: That’s where they were. Their vacation was sort of like going to Texas. They went back on deaths and stuff like that, but that’s mostly—But as far as vacation, they didn’t do it. I tell people, I say, I took my parents to—my wife and I had been in Reno. And I came back and was telling everyone about Reno, how much fun we had. I said I want to take mom and dad down there. My mother was a lady who—straight-laced. And I was telling them about it because none of them had been to Reno and they said, no, my mother wouldn’t like that. Momma not going to like that, people gambling and everything. At that time you could be outside drinking in Reno. Vanis Daniels: Oh yeah, all up and down the street. Edmon Daniels: But I said, I think they would enjoy it. We put the money together and we took them. It used to be you walked down the street and there’d be people with rolls of nickels or dimes. They’d give you dimes to go into the casino, because they gave you three dollars in nickels you were going to spend $15 or $20. They had a ball, we went to see a couple of shows, and then we went to see Sammy Davis, Jr. And that’s a treat right there, this is someone you’ve seen on TV, that’s all you’ve ever done. We went to see him and he came over to our table. He shook hands with my dad, he kissed my wife, he hugged my mother and gave her some candy and everything; that’s when he we had “Candy Man.” That made their whole trip because we’d come back and my dad would see Sammy Davis, Jr. on TV and say, I met Sammy Davis, Jr., I shook his hand. Well, that’s not to many people who can say I met Sammy Davis, Jr. and shook his hand an all these other people, you know, that they-- They appreciated us, because we appreciated what they did for us. Like I said, when most kids were doing things working and everything—the only thing I did, I had a paper route. He had a paper route first and I would go with him. That’s the only job I had until I went to work at—well, I worked at the grocery store it was more fun than working there. But otherwise like my dad said all his jobs was work. Work, work, work. Vanis Daniels: Boorish work. Edmon Daniels: And my mother, like I said, when she was out there, all the ladies did was clean and cook, which is what most ladies did back in those days anyway. Like I said, they had to go to the high school to find someone who could type. I’m just happy we made their lives so much easier later on in their lives. We was able to do that. Vanes Daniels: My mom babysat three kids for $15 a week and that was in ‘54. Edmon Daniels: Right there in Old Pasco. Franklin: What do you--? Edmon Daniels: But—oh I said, but out of that deal, one of the guys, the grandfather, he owned a sport shop there in Pasco. So I would get tennis shoes and gloves and things for like two or three bucks. He said at least send that boy down here so I can give him some shoes. I always had nice baseball shoes and gloves. [LAUGHTER] Didn’t cost very much. Franklin: Another question about Hanford. What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Edmon Daniels: Oh, boy. Vanis Daniels: The bomb, but eventually it will be the cleanup. Edmon Daniels: Another thing, they discovered a lots of stuff out there. I mean, there were things out there that you never even think about that we have now. Baby monitors. Where I’m in here, I can put a monitor in the baby’s room and you can tell—Battelle. That was Battelle. And there are just so many things that they invented. There was something else. Because I went to—there was a guy there over at the math department, he finished college when he was thirteen, so he really didn’t have any childhood. But he loved—baseball to him was just something magic. I was a baseball player. And he found out that I had a baseball and he would call me down. He’d say, Ed, come down here. Well, I’m not supposed to be down there. He had a TV in his room and he’d say, come on in. And we’d watch the game and I would be telling him about the game. Just little things that we take for granted. Some of those people out there who was—the calculator, and you could do the calculator and he could do a math problem in his head faster than you could do it on the calculator. He was smart, but he was an A-Okay guy. And just little things, like I said, baseball, baseball season would come, I spent a lots of time down there with him just watching baseball. He had his TV. And I remember one Saturday we were out at work and he was out there, he said, come on in, Ed. All the other guys were working, he and I was watching the World Series. This was just magic to him. And you run into people like this, like I said lots of geniuses out there and you’d run into people like this who didn’t have a normal childhood and just little things that we take for granted. It’s just fascinating to him, just amazing because they never did anything like that. Franklin: What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Edmon Daniels: Number one I think for most of them it was housing. Vanis Daniels: Mm-hmm. Streets. Edmon Daniels: Yup, housing more than anything else. Because there were—just buying a house and I remember in Richland there, all the blacks lived down there on the south end. Most of us were my relatives, they were all together. The Mitchells-- Vanis Daniels: The Rockamores. Edmon Daniels: The Rockamores, all of them, they were all just right in the same spot. Vanis Daniels: The Wallaces. They were almost like next door to each other. Edmon Daniels: They moved—when they—the trailer camp out here, remember the trailer camp? No, you wouldn’t. Vanis Daniels: No, he wouldn’t remember. Edmon Daniels: The trailer camp was right up here, where it was. When they moved the trailer camp, all of the blacks that was living in the trailer camps, except, whatcha call him, Brown, they sent them to Seattle—I mean they sent them to Pasco, because there were no housing here for them. They kept the Browns here because they were such good basketball players. You know, Norris was all-American basketball player. So they kept him and CW and they found a house for them. And just little things like that, you think about it, out of all those houses, and they’re not big, fancy houses, they wasn’t houses that—I know my cousin lived in a house about form here to there, that’s about the size of those little houses. You walk in the living room, you take a couple of steps, you’re in another room. That was the way it was. Where we lived, everyone called it the big house. Like I said and he said it had lots of bedrooms and everything, and when people would come here, they would come and stay with us. But I just thought it was a house. We had the big yard and whole works. Franklin: What kind of actions were being taken to address those issues? Housing and streets, and things. Edmon Daniels: Well-- Vanis Daniels: Let’s see. You had Bill Wilkins and Magee, Katie Barton. All those, Bill Wilkins and Katie Barton were councilmen. Magee was a civil rights worker and they complained to the city, had meetings, and Magee would organize marches first thing and another. Finally, we got streets, sidewalk, sewer, and all that stuff. But like my brother say, when we were kids growing up, we rode bicycles all the time. We would race from our house to A street and back on the bikes. And he say, I don’t ever remember my momma saying, boy get out of that street! A car might hit you! Because there wasn’t any cars. Edmon Daniels: The car went to work with the man. The man went to work the car. And most of the ladies did not work. They didn’t have jobs. So you’d be at home with your mother and everybody on that street that was there, that was your mother. We knew everybody, you knew every kid there. Like if I went down the street, didn’t nobody worry if some girl had to go to the store because all the men was at work and everybody knew who she belongs to. [LAUGHTER] It was just a big-- Vanis Daniels: Community. Edmon Daniels: Community like that. They looked after each other, and they looked after us. Franklin: What were some of the challenges for civil rights in the Tri-Cities? Edmon Daniels: I think one of the biggest things was getting people jobs, like lots of other people, it was just getting jobs. Because most of the older people, they worked construction and that was it. In reality, when they first started working out at Hanford, like for me, we wasn’t making very much money, wasn’t anyone making very much. If you worked construction, like my dad, like I say, he’d been here all those years, most people that was hiring knew him. So he probably worked as much as anyone did. There were a lot of people who would come here and they would go to work, and a lot of them had never made the money that they were making. I know a couple of Dad’s friends, they came to work and they worked for a while, and they went back to Texas or wherever. They had made enough money to go back and whatever they were doing back there, I don’t know. But my dad, he just stayed here. He thought this was a better place for his kids. Franklin: Were either of you directly involved in any civil rights efforts? Edmon Daniels: I don’t remember. Vanis Daniels: Yeah, in a way we were. It was like, see, we didn’t even have a park. And when the park was built, the city didn’t build the park. Franklin: You’re talking about Kurtzman Park, right? Vanis Daniels: Yeah, mm-hmm. The community built the park. Edmon Daniels: The mens of the community. Vanis Daniels: And we got the man that owned that land, which was old man Kurtzman, to donate the land to the city. He donated six acres for a park and it’s down there. Most of the people at City Hall don’t know it, but if it ever cease being a park, it goes back into his estate. Edmon Daniels: But, Kurtzman, it was funny— Vanis Daniels: But it’ll always be a park, so you don’t have to worry about that, I don’t think. Edmon Daniels: It was funny, because my brother and I went to City Hall to see who owned the land. And it was Mr. Kurtzman, a letter was written and we signed the letter. He wrote back and said he would donate the land to the city if they would build the park and name the park after him. When the park, like I said, my father, uncles, cousins, just mens of the community, put the park in. I remember one Sunday, the ladies, they got together and cooked up some food and got a big picnic for all the guys that was working. I remember when the park was finished and the city put up the sign, and it said Candy Cane Park. I always tell them, I say, Mr. Kurtzman wrote back and told them my name is Kurtzman not candy cane. That was supposed to be—[LAUGHTER] It stayed up there for about three weeks or maybe a little longer, they finally put Kurtzman. But at first they called it Candy Cane Park. Vanis Daniels: That’s right. Then they had the teeter-totter, they had the monkey bars, we called them, all that stuff, swings, all that stuff there and everything was like a peppermint stick. It was painted red and white stripe. Franklin: Ooh, cool. Edmon Daniels: All the stuff they don’t have anymore. Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Vanis Daniels: Well, it broke down barriers. Like for instance, blacks were able to work in operations, blacks can live anywhere they wanted now-- Edmon Daniels: If they could afford it. Vanis Daniels: If you can afford to buy the house, you can afford to live in it. Right down here, right over here on Spring Street, my cousin—when did CJ pass away? Three years ago? Edmon Daniels: ’16. He passed away January of ‘16, a couple years. Vanis Daniels: He bought a house down there on Spring. Edmon Daniels: Right over there. Vanis Daniels: Yeah. He had problems buying the house in the first place, they didn’t want to sell him the house. And then he had problems with his neighbors after he bought the house. But then, as time passed, I think the neighborhood probably diversed more, people moved out, other people moved in; then they welcomed him there. And they kept the house plumb up until he and his wife passed away. But it was just areas that you could not live if you were black. Like in Kennewick, for instance. You couldn’t live in Kennewick, period, if you were black. On some of the old homes and things, unless they have changed them in the last 20 years, on the deeds and the ordinances, and all that stuff, it says that you cannot sell your house to people of color, I’ll put it. Because not only blacks couldn’t buy them, Spanish people couldn’t buy them, I don’t remember any Orientals of any kind living in Kennewick. Edmon Daniels: They lived in Pasco. Vanis Daniels: You lived in Pasco, and you lived east-- Franklin: In East Pasco. Vanis Daniels: Yeah. Franklin: From your perspective and experience what was different about civil rights efforts here? Edmon Daniels: Well, for one thing they made it better, they made it a lot better, I think for the whole community. Vanis Daniels: It wasn’t violent as the South, for one thing. Edmon Daniels: It was smaller. Vanis Daniels: It was a smaller community and, although there were protests and stuff that went on, it was done differently than the marches and things in the South. Like for, with Martin Luther King and all those people trying to get across the Edmund Pettus Bridge and Alabama, that type of stuff, and the policemen standing up there water-hosing you and beating you, and running over you with horses. You had none of that here. Edmon Daniels: I think it was because people was getting smarter. Especially younger people that was coming up. And the more you interact with people, the more you find out that’s not much more difference in people. I may like baked potato and you may like stewed potatoes, but, hell, it’s still a potato. [LAUGHTER] You find out that you like the same things and there’s no difference in people. Franklin: Right, like baseball is a great example, right? For a time there were segregated teams, but now everyone loves baseball and everyone can play together. Vanis Daniels: That’s the great American pastime, eating hot dogs. [LAUGHTER] Edmon Daniels: The more you just stop and think… Vanis Daniels: Now, I think people realize that if, when you bleed, you bleed red just like everybody else does. I don’t think there’s anyone that don’t have a prejudice of some kind, but it does not restrict itself to race. You may be prejudiced against red potatoes over white potatoes, but that’s a prejudice. But it’s not one of those things where you are trying to hinder someone from advancing or being the best that they can be. You see? Edmon Daniels: Well, if everyone—it just makes it a better world. Because you just feel that, okay, I see this young man over here, young man over here. It’s something about all three of us, we like something. I feel, if you love yourself, you can love someone else. I’m going to love myself more than I love you. If a guy come in here right now and say, I’m going to shoot someone, I’m going to go that way and say shoot them. [LAUGHTER] Because I love me. Love can overcome all the hate and everything else. That’s what has happened, people have grown and it’s just a better world altogether. We still have a lot of work to do and it may never be—and it has never been. Remember the guy that killed his brother? A long, long, long time ago. There was only two or three people on the earth, a long time ago. There’s a lot of things and now there’s a whole lots more of us. I don’t know. It’s just weird. But we can get along. We can get along. And we are getting—things are getting better all the time. Vanis Daniels: It’s just like, what’s his name out of Los Angeles? Edmon Daniels: Who? Vanis Daniels: That the police beat up. Franklin: Rodney King? Vanis Daniels: Rodney King, yeah, he said, why can’t we just get along? That was a profound statement that he didn’t realize he was making at the time. Edmon Daniels: We just need to learn that everyone has done something good, even right here in the Tri-Cities. Vanis Daniels: There is good in everyone. Edmon Daniels: There is a man in the Tri-Cities, when I was a kid, we called him Peanuts. He was an Oriental man. And right now in Pasco there is Peanuts Park. But most people don’t know who Peanuts were, and I was on the Parks and Rec Board and they were talking about they were going to redo Peanuts Park I said we need to put up a-- Vanis Daniels: Mural. Edmon Daniels: A mural of Peanuts. When most people say, peanuts they think about—and they said peanuts? I said yes, he was a guy named Peanuts, he was an Oriental guy. When I was a kid, he gave me candy; my daughter came up, he gave her candy. We would go down there and Peanuts would fix our bikes and he’d say, give me a nickel. Well, I know it was worth way more than that. [LAUGHTER] But that’s who Peanuts was, and I said, we need to put a mural up there so people will know Peanuts, who he is. Most people saying Peanuts Park, they are not thinking of some guy. I said he was a Oriental guy. He had gold fish down there, had a big gold fish pond, big gold fish, and we would go down there-- Vanis Daniels: Most likely koi. Edmon Daniels: We just need to know that there are good in everybody and there’s some good people and it doesn’t matter what you look like or whatever, you can be a great person. Franklin: Well great, that’s a great place to end. Vanis Daniels: All right. Franklin: I think that’s a great sentiment. So thank you both for coming and taking the time to interview, and talk about your lives and the community, and your work. Edmon Daniels: No problem. Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview B Reactor Battelle 300 Area 325 Building 326 Building 340 Building 318 Trenches FFTF Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vanis and Edmon Daniels Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Segregation School integration African American universities and colleges Civil rights Civil rights movements Nuclear weapons plants Baseball Description An account of the resource Vanis and Edmon Daniels moved to Pasco, Washington in 1951 and both worked on the Hanford Site. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 05/07/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6d06e719ac9b9555c4f738a405f3502e.jpg a2598d933b17d283d40105588e7d7ddf https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F66d4925a2f29afc5b4b3d23f95a80a5d.mp4 5b50c149f78db5cd96a35569232c6bb8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Laura Arata Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vanis Daniels Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Laura Arata: That’s the more comforting way to look at it. [LAUGHTER] Oh, are we ready? Man One: Yup. Arata: Oh, okay, so we're ready to get started. If we could just start by having you say your name and then spell it for us. Vanis Daniels: Vanis Daniels, V-A-N-I-S, D-A-N-I-E-L-S. And that’s the second. Arata: Thank you. My name's Laura Arata. It's November 14, 2013 and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could just start by having you tell us a little bit about when you first arrived at Hanford, who you came with, where you came from, that initial experience. Daniels: Oh, boy. I arrived, well, let's say I arrived in the Tri-Cities. My dad came here in '43 and worked here off and on until '51 when he moved the family here. Now, between the time he first came here in '43, he, my uncle, and cousin of ours helped pour the first mud that was poured to start the B Reactor. And then, after that, he worked here off and on until '51, when he brought the family out. And I was just a little—barely a teenager when I came here in '51. I was a sophomore in high school. I was supposed to graduate in 1954. At that time, you had to be 17-and-a-half years old in order to graduate from high school. Well, see, I was just turning 16. So then when I got ready to graduate, the vice principal came to me and he says, you can't graduate. I said, why can't I graduate? He says, you're not old enough. I said, oh? What's that got to do would graduation? He say, you're only 16. You have to be 17-and-a-half years old to graduate from high school. Well, it didn't make any sense to me, you know, if I got the grade point and all that and able to graduate. And he say, well, let me ask you a question. And I said, yes? He says, if you graduate, what are you going to do for the next year and a half? I said, I don't know. He say, you're not old enough to get a job. Nobody's going to hire you. He say, so you're just going to be whiling away your time. I said, well, I guess. He says, I'll tell you what, I'll make a deal with you. He say, you come back to school next year. He say, because you're not going to be doing anything. He say, you can come as many hours as you want to. If you can find you a little part time job or something like that, you're free to leave to go and work. And you don't have any restrictions on you, you know, as far as having to be there every day. I told him, okay. So that's what I did. But that's when I really started appreciating school. Because up until that point, I had been an A student, but where I came from--I came from Texas, by the way. I was born in a place called Terrell, Texas, but that's all I know about it. We moved to East Texas, which is a little place called Kildare, which is right out of Texarkana. I personally lived in Oklahoma during those eight or ten years that I was there, and then back to Texas and then to the Tri-Cities here. But being from the south, I went to an all-black school, segregated. And I didn't know anything about interacting with other races. And when I came here, nobody gave you a—I wouldn't call it a crash course, but I'd say interaction—it has a name for it—But anyway, they just threw you into the school with everyone else. And you had to learn to adjust. Well, that can be kind of hard. And it can also be kind of devastating. So my grade point dropped, but not to the point where I didn't graduate. And I see some kids right now that I went to school with that--I see them every once in a while--and if they hadn't been there to sort of support me, hold me up, I might would have fallen all the way through the crack. I might would have dropped out of school altogether. But they were—let's see, one retired from Franklin County. I don't know what the other three girls did as far as work go. But for some reason, they sort of took me under their wing, and I guess boost my morale or whatever you want to call it. And I was able to transition in and go on and finish school. After I finished school, I tried for ten years, 12 years really, to get a job at Hanford. And for some reason, they didn't want to hire me. I went to Seattle, tried to get a job at Boeing. They didn't want to hire me. I have, later in life since I retired, I learned why I didn't get a job at Hanford or Boeing, as far as that go. The people that I thought would be my biggest asset became my biggest enemy as far as getting a job. Because when you're asked for references and you put people down, I asked them if I could put them down, I let them know that I was putting them down for references and all this stuff. But the things that they put down there hindered me from getting a job rather than helping me get a job. And I learned this since I retired. But needless to say, I worked construction. I finally got a job--an interview--for Battelle. Meissinger was his name that interviewed me. And I must've gone out there for an interview the better part of a dozen times. And every time I'd go, he'd tell me, well, we don't have anything right now. In June of '66, he called me for an interview and I went out. And I'm working every day, working construction, when you leave work on construction, that's when your pay stop. I had a wife and a kid by then. And I went out one evening because he told me, he said, I'll stay here until 7 o'clock. You get of work, you come out. I told him, okay. So I got off, went home, took a shower, when out, talked with him. And I think he was about to tell me that he didn't have a position, ‘til I told him, I said, let me tell you something. I said, now, if you're not going to hire me, tell me now because I can't keep making arrangements, taking off work and all that stuff, coming out here just to sit and talk with you. I need a job. He says, just a minute. I don't know who--he left the room. He went and talked with someone. When he came back, he say, when can you come to work? I don't know. Whenever you want me to. He said, can you come Thursday? I told him yes. So I went out on Thursday. They interviewed me, gave me a permit, which was a red badge at the time, to go to work. I started as a janitor in the 3706 and 3707 building in the 300 Area. They transferred me from there to Two East and Two West. From Two East and Two West, they gave me a job in what was called Decon at the time. We did all of the glassware, all of the pigs--which is not a literal pig. It's a iron cast. You know, you can get the gallon, half gallon, or quarts. And it contains radioactive waste on the inside. The pig is just to shield the radiation. And we handled all of the hot water from the 300 Area. So I worked in there for two and a half years or so. And we took care of all the waste, did all the filter changing and everything in 300 Area. From there, I went to 100-F, to inhalation toxicology. And inhalation toxicology is just a matter of inhaling and exhaling is what it is. But I worked with the dogs, which at the time, Battelle was doing an experiment on the effect that cigarette smoke had on the human body. We worked with beagle dogs because at that time, they said that the closest thing to a human’s physique was the beagle. A grownup beagle weighs anywhere from 15 pounds to I think the heaviest one we had was probably 47 pounds--which is a wide range for a dog, but the human anatomy is also a wide range. 15-pound dog would be equivalent to 130-pound man. A 47-pound dog would be equivalent to 350-pound man. And every three months, we sacrificed a dog. And we did everything from blood, urine, feces, muscles, tissue, everything. We learned everything we could about cigarette smoke on what effect it would have on the dogs. The dogs smoked two packs of cigarettes a day. Now, we had dogs that got addicted to cigarettes. And they were just like humans, chain smoke if you allowed them to. Then you had dogs that could not stand smoke, period, and they would fight it all the way through. But you had to give them the equivalent of two packs of cigarettes a day. Okay, we had hamsters that we shammed with cigarette smoke. We also did plutonium on them to see what effect it would have on the organs, on the inside of the body. And I worked in there until I got kind of fed up with supervision at the time because we weren't getting the raises that we should as far as finances go. And when you got a family you got to take care of, $2 just don't get it. So meanwhile, I talked with supervision and they say they didn't have money for raises. But yet and still, they're turning back money every year to DOE, which was set aside for raises. They just weren't giving it out. Well, at that time, they had what they call merit raises. And I worked second shift. I very seldom saw my supervisor. And so I asked him, I say, if I very seldom see you, I must be doing a good job. Because otherwise, you should be here checking on me to see what I'm doing. I later learned that one of the guys that worked in my department had told him that he had to recheck all of my work every morning when he came in, to make sure that I was doing it right. Well, see, that wasn't his position. He's an employee like I am. The other thing is that if the supervisor had just used a little bit of common sense, he would have known the man was lying. Because when you pull samples, the minute you pull the sample, it starts to decay. Now you would have had some variation in my results and his results if he's going to run my sample the next morning to tell me that I'm not doing it right. And he's getting the same results I'm getting. Something's wrong with this picture. Well, anyway, as it turned out, I told him I couldn't work for them if that's the way there were going to do things. So I quit. The day I left from out there, I went home and I was sitting at home. And thinking, boy, I just quit my job. I got to get me a job. I went up to my sister's house and my brother-in-law was home. And I said, what are you doing home? He say, today is Veteran's Day. And also, it used to be Election Day, the 11th of November. And he say, I'm off. And so we sat round and talked for a few minutes. He say, would you be interested in leaving Hanford and going to work someplace else? He didn't know I'd quit. [LAUGHTER] I say, why, sure. He say, I got a guy you need to go and see. He told me where it was and everything. And the next day, I went looking for it. I drove right by the office and didn't find it. I went back and when he came in from work, I said, I--he say, you passed right by it. He says, it's a little building. I says, okay. The next day I went, the guy that became my supervisor wasn't in. But the secretary knew who I was when I got there. So I didn't get to see him that day. But the next day, they told me what time to come back. I went back, I walked in the door. He say, so you're looking for a job. I say, yes, I am. He says, come on back here in my office. So we went back to his office and, meanwhile, he's talking and asking me some questions. He's saying, I know your brother-in-law real well. He say you’re a heck of a nice guy. I say, he did? You say, yeah. When we get in the door and he closed the door, he say, you got the job if you want it. But I got to go through the motion of interviewing you. I says, okay. So I worked there at the Tank Farm in Pasco, which we distributed petroleum products, fertilizers, and fire retardant for forest fires. And I worked there just two or three months shy of 16 years. I went back to Hanford after that and went to work for Westinghouse. From there, Bechtel took over. I became supervisor. I worked in every area out there, decommissioning all of the buildings, the outer buildings, the 105s, tore down the 103s, basins. You name it, we did it. Took care of all the asbestos, worked in the asbestos department of the Tank Farm. They're talking about, now, where the tanks are leaking and all that stuff. We took care of all the above ground asbestos and stuff there for them. And I worked there until I retired in '97. Arata: What year was this that you quit your job, your first job with Battelle? Daniels: In '71. Arata: And so then, what year was it that you went back to work at Hanford for Westinghouse? Daniels: '89. Arata: Okay. Well, it sounds like you had quite an array of jobs between all those sites. Daniels: I've done some more besides that. [LAUGHTER] I owned my own restaurant for a little while in Spokane out at Airway Heights. I went in the service. I was at my basic training in Fort Ord, California. When I finished my advanced basic, I had run into a captain. I didn't know him, but I knew his family from Pasco. And I was talking to him and I had been home on leave and I had seen his mother. And I was telling him that she was doing fine, I'd just seen her and all that stuff. And when I finished my advanced basic, he was there and he ask me, he says, I got several places you can go if you want to, he said. Which ones do you want? I could've gone to a special forces in Chicago. I didn't think I wanted to go there. It get too cold there for me. [LAUGHTER] I could've gone to Presidio in San Francisco. I don't like San Francisco. I could've gone to Germany. I didn't want to go at that time. I could've gone to Fort Lawton, or I could've gone to Fort Lewis. I chose Fort Lewis. So I went there. And I liked Fort Lewis for some reason, although we were in the field most of the time. But I'm an outdoor person anyway. We got transferred from Fort Lewis to Germany. At the same time, the Vietnam War was breaking out. They took all of our officers and sent them to Vietnam. They took all of the personnel that had six months or less left to do, they extended them a year and sent them to Vietnam. All of them that had a year or better to do went to Vietnam. I had eight months left to do, so I didn't have to go. But they sent me from Germany back to Fort Lewis. And I trained the Milwaukee National Guard because they had activated them to take the 4th Division's place when they sent them to Vietnam. And I was sent back to Fort Lewis to train the Milwaukee National Guard. Once I got them trained, I got discharged. Three weeks after I got discharged, I got drafted again. [LAUGHTER] But I didn't have to go. I didn't have to go. For some reason, they decided they didn't want me. And those were some of the jobs I've had and some of the things I've done. Arata: Wow, there's about a million things I want to ask you about but we have to start somewhere. Daniels: Well-- Arata: I wonder if we can talk a little bit about kind of some of your early memories when you first arrived in the Tri-Cities area. And particularly, I'm interested in what your housing situation was like that and where you lived and what the community was like at that time. Daniels: Okay. When we first arrived in the Tri-Cities--coming from east Texas, where you got greenery all around you, you know, it's like the west side of the state of Washington--and coming here to the desert, you just sort of get a sickening feeling. [LAUGHTER] To tell you the truth. But if you were black, you lived on the east side in Pasco, where I still--well, I live northeast Pasco, now, but that's by choice. Anything west of Second and Lewis in Pasco, well, it wasn't off limits—it was off limits as far as houses go. The banks or anything would not loan blacks money to buy homes. The finance company—which, at the time, Fidelity Savings and Loans was the biggest one in the Tri-Cities--would loan you money to buy an old, raggedy car with interest rates so high. But that's beside the point. When we came, my dad tried to borrow money to buy a house. He couldn't get any. He found a house and the lady that owned the house sold it to him on a contract. And she let the bank, BV, whatever you call them, hmph. Anyway, he paid his payments to the bank. So, therefore, I guess they would be the proprietor or whatever you call them. And in the agreement was that if he was three days late with the payment, they could foreclose on it and take the house. And the house was less than $10,000 at the time. They never took it, of course. But then he would always make sure that it was paid on the date that it was supposed to, if he had to haul me out of school long enough for the bank to open to go pay it and then go on to school. But other than that, kids are kids. And kids aren't prejudiced. We all played together. We had baseball, we did Basketball, we had BB gun wars, which I don't know why some of us didn't get our eyes shot out. But we didn't. [LAUGHTER] And, let's see, you couldn't live in Kennewick if you were black. You didn't live in Richland because that was government and you had to work for the government in order to live out there. Well, up until probably '49, I think Mr. Newborn went to work out there in '49, which was the first black as far as know that ever worked in processing at Hanford. They only thing, blacks could work construction out there and help build it, but they couldn't help operate it, which—it still baffles me to this day, but that's just the way it was. Signs of the times, I guess you would call it and ignorance on a lot of people's part, as far as that go. Arata: So you graduated from high school, then, in Pasco. Daniels: Mm-hmm. Arata: Do you remember about how many students were in your high school and approximately how many of you were black versus the white students? Daniels: Okay. There were—let’s see—three? The high school was built for 600 kids, I think, 500 or 600 kids. And the day that they opened the doors, it was already overcrowded as far as that go. And that's the Pasco High School they got there now. I was the first graduating class out of that school. There were 107 or 108 of us in the graduating class. And I think there's probably 25 or 30 of us that I know of. In fact, I just saw seven or eight of them a couple of weeks ago. One of our classmates passed away. Arata: Do you recall any specific incidents, anything that stands out to you about your time. I'm curious, particularly about high school, because you've told us all these great stories about it--where race was an issue at Pasco High School when you were attending there. Daniels: Yes. There were maybe, at the most, 13 black kids when I went to high school. Most of them were underclassmen. There was a couple or three upperclassmen. We had football players, basketball players and stuff like that that were starters, what you might want to say were the star of the team. When they would have homecoming, the football players got to escort the queen and her court and all that stuff. Black kids couldn't do it. They wouldn't allow it. Some of the kids have since told me and another friend of mine that passed away that whenever one of them--because I was small, so I didn't play basketball or football--but anyway, if one of them turned out for football, they tried to do everything they could to hurt them. They didn't want them on the field with them. They didn't want to play with them. If any of the black kids got any type of award or anything, it was never given to them during assemblies or anything like that. If it was white kids, they made a big to-do of it and he got it on stage, came up before the whole school and got it. Black kids, they gave it to him as he was leaving school one evening or something like that. But this is faculty doing this. This is not the kids doing stuff like this. My vice principal and my shop teacher I ran into one day, oh, years after I graduated from school. They were hunting agates. And I stopped and was talking to them. And they actually apologized to me for some of the things that went on. The vice principal told me, he says, I am so sorry. He said, there are things that went on that I dare not tell or divulge--two reasons. First of all, I had a wife and kids that I had to support. And if I told them anything that was going to advance you, then I'd be looking for a job. He say, and I am sorry, but the community as a whole, well, it's like the council now, you know. They tell you what to do and you more or less jump and do it. Or like the government, which I think we all ought to vote everybody up there out, but that's beside the point. [LAUGHTER] It's just the way it was. And then I could understand their positions, because if you've got a wife and kids that you've got to support, you got to look out for them and you in the process of whatever you're trying to do. Now there's another way that it could have been done. But at the same time, they probably did what they knew to do. And that's one thing I never fault anyone for. If you don't know how to do something or to do something, then I don't fault you for not doing it. Now my brother, which you will interview next week, is probably the first black to have a job in a department store in the Tri-Cities, or at least in Pasco, I know. Well, he'll tell you about it. I won’t try to tell you about him. [LAUGHTER] But those are some of the things that we encountered. We walked every day from the east side of Pasco to Memorial Park, which was the only swimming pool in town within the last year. And at that time, there was probably 5,000 to 7,000 people in the whole of Pasco. They had one swimming pool. You got 80,000 to 100,000 people in Pasco now. You got one swimming pool. [LAUGHTER] Doesn't make any sense at all. But we walked over there every day to play baseball and go swimming if we wanted to go swimming. There weren't any park other than Sylvester Park and Memorial Park was the only two parks in town at the time. Later, they put the Boat Basin in down there at Pasco. But when we didn't have any place to play, other than going over there, then we started making our own baseball diamonds in vacant lots and things. And as the lots would be developed, they would—well, naturally, they'd run us out because there wasn't enough room for us to play. So one evening, we didn't have any place to play baseball and we wanted to play baseball. Two blocks from my house, where I grew up at was Kurtzman Park. Well, actually, it's a block and a half. But it was just a vacant field. And we took shovels, a bunch of my friends and me, and we went out there and we cleared all the tumbleweeds out, took the shovels and kind of levelled it off, and started playing baseball. A lady named Rebecca Heidelbar happened to come by there and see us. I don't know exactly what period of time, how long we'd been playing there. And she stopped and asked us if we had a park that we could play in. We told her no. We told her the only park was Memorial Park. She says, mm-hmm. And she talked to us for a minute. She left. Well, we later learned that she was an attorney, her husband was an attorney, her mom was an attorney, and her dad was an attorney. And that was Judge Horrigan and his wife, and then their daughter Rebecca. And then she had married an attorney. So she came back and asked us to get as many kids together as we could and she would meet with us. And she did. And she went to the courthouse, found out who the land belonged to where we were playing. She helped us to draft a letter to Mr. Kurtzman, which she found out lived in Seattle and ask him to donate enough land for us to have a baseball diamond. Well, it took him the better part of six months to answer us, but he get back to us because I suppose he had to look into the legal aspect of it. He got back to us and told us that he could not give any land to a special interest group or persons. He would donate six acres of land to the city if they named the park after him. That's how Kurtzman Park came into an existence. And there's a letter someplace that we wrote him with my name right on the top of it. But in the process of this, we got the land donated to us, the city of Pasco, as far as the city go. The only thing they did to get that park in there was they gave some used pipe that they had laying around out there at what we call the Navy Base, which is out by the airport. And the black parents went out there and broke all this pipe apart and everything, took it down to the park, actually took shovels--we took shovels--dug the trenches for the water system down there, put the pipe back together, put the water system in. The city did seed it. They did plant the trees. And they keep it up. But the Kurtzman building has a park right in the front of it that myself, my cousin, Mr. Louzel Johnson put up, free of charge, right where U-Haul is on Fourth Street and Pasco now, used to be a brick place where they made brick blocks, your cinder blocks. And they donated the blocks. We did the labor and put it up. At first, they named the park Candy Cane Park. And then we had to let them know that you can't do that. That park got to be named Kurtzman or else we don't have a place to play because that's the only way he would donate it, so that's the way we got that. Where Virgie Robinson's Elementary School is now, on Wehe and Lewis Street, used to be what we call the lizard hole because you get off and then had toad, frogs, and all that stuff down in there. And we'd we go down in there and get those frogs and stuff out of there and bust them because that's what we did. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Just to clarify this, I just have this great mental image in my head of this group of kids running around playing baseball. Was that integrated at all? Were most of you African Americans? A little better sense of-- Daniels: Well, what we did was, like I say, we lived on what we called the East side. There was a bunch of white kids that lived over there. Right on the north side of Lewis Street was enough white kids that they had two baseball teams. We lived on the south side of Lewis Street. We had one baseball team. And we played each other every day. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. We had a lot of fun. We played each other every day. In fact, one of the kids--I haven't seen him in years--but I was catching. And he threw a ball. He threw that ball so hard it--because I was using a board for the plate--and it hit that board and hit me right there. And I later had to have a hernia operation. [LAUGHTER] Arata: The scars of childhood. Daniels: Oh, yeah. We had a lot of fun. We played, like I say, we did BB wars and all that stuff again. I don't know why we don't have eyes out or something, but none of us ever did. Used to dig holes, tunnels. And I know you've probably read here in later years here, where kids are digging tunnels on the beach and all that stuff and then they collapse on them and they suffocate and stuff. I don't know why that didn't happen to us either because we'd dig as far as we could underground. [LAUGHTER] Arata: Wow, there's so many things I want to ask you about. If we could go back to your time at Hanford just a little bit. So you did have a bunch of different jobs over the broad course of time. Could you talk a little bit about sort of security, or secrecy, or safety, things like that? Did any of those things have a major impact? Daniels: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Now security was at a point where that certain buildings, certain areas, you couldn't go in if you didn't have the clearance to go in them. One of the things that they especially emphasized was paperwork—security or classified documents and things. And documents was classified, like secret, top secret, and they had another one. But anyway, the way you knew which one was which was the border that was around it. Like, I think secret had a blue border. Top secret had a red border around it. Now, if you went in any building, and you saw that document laying anywhere unattended, you were to report it, stay right with that document until somebody of authority came and picked that document up. It wasn't supposed to be laying around any place. Again, if you didn't have the clearance, you weren't allowed in the buildings. They didn't allow you, even if you had the clearance, unless you had business in the building, then you wasn't supposed to go and fraternize and all that stuff, like, well, like first instance, my brother. The only time I went to see him or he came to see me was if there was an emergency at home and he got the message, he came and told me or vice versa. See, you just weren't allowed to do it. You were allowed in your work area to do your work and that's it. I worked all over. So I had a Q clearance. And I had a clearance for everything but the arms room. Now in the arms room, you needed a Q, but you also needed a chip. I didn't have the chip. I worked in the arms room, but I had to be escorted to the building. And then once I got to the building, I could go all around in the building, but I couldn't come out until my escort came and got me to bring me back out of the building. So there were security, and I can remember, for instance, where that DOE--which is what we call them now--actually right where Jackson's is now, down here on George Washington Way, it was a tavern. And DOE actually put people in there to watch and talk with people that worked at Hanford, got off work, stopped in to have a beer and stuff like that, just to see if they would divulge anything that was going on out there. So it was pretty hush-hush. You couldn't go past the wire barricade unless you had business out there. Again, like I say, there's not an area or a building I don't think I haven't been in. But that was because I worked all over the place. ‘Til this day, there are still areas out there that still classified. You know, they're declassifying it and cleaning it up. And I don't know how many acres they got now, but—no, I'll take that back. The only place I never did go was up on top of Rattlesnake. And I didn't want to go up there, because I'm afraid of snakes. And my brother-in-law helped put the telescope up there. And he say when they were digging and getting ready and there was plenty rattlesnakes. I said, I'm not going up there. And so I never went. [LAUGHTER] But any area out there that you can name, if you didn't have any business in there, then it wasn't a good idea to go. I can remember working, and you would look up--and they had environmentalists--and you'd look up and you'd see one way out across the desert someplace. And what in the world are they doing? Who are they? You had to go and get your supervisor or someone, or if you was in a vehicle, you went and you challenged that person. If they didn't have a badge, then they had to go with you. You held them some kind of way until they was identified, in some way or form. You just didn't walk around out there. When the Army was out there, they would do drills and stuff. And they would come in and several times—they finally had to kind of curtail that because we had guards out there that carried weapons. And some of them almost got shot, scaling over walls and going over fences and things like this. It was an exercise, but you going the wrong direction and in the wrong place without proper identification, so they had to sort of curtail that because you don't want anybody to get hurt. Arata: Right. I wonder, I know it's a little bit before your time working at Hanford, but JFK visited in 1963. Daniels: Well, that was before I started out there. I helped put the railroad spur in that he was supposed to come in on because he was supposed to come in by train. We finished the spur the day before he dedicated the steam plant the next day. It was so hot until I decided I wasn't going. So I didn't go. My brother took my mom and dad out to the dedication. Arata: Did you ever wish maybe you had gone, braved the heat? Daniels: Yeah, now I do. But back then, I didn't. I was sick of the heat. Arata: Sure. I guess when you think about overall and through all your different jobs, maybe you could talk a little bit about how Hanford was as a place to work overall and if there were sort of any aspects of your jobs that were more challenging or more rewarding than others? Anything that stands out? Daniels: Probably the worst part of working out at Hanford was the fact that when you worked inside the buildings, they had what we called recirculated air. You didn't get any fresh air. So it was always just sort of ho hum. You know, I always felt kind of drowsy all the time when I worked inside. Other than that, I think everything I did out there I really enjoyed. And I enjoyed being a supervisor. Although, if I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have the job. But I had everything. All of the crafts worked for me. And that's electricians, crane operators, rigors, laborers, RCTs, the whole ball of wax. I was in charge of taking down all of the holding tanks, which, if you watch TV and you see this deal on there. This guy says he worked at Hanford for 21 years and now he's under this health care and they come out and visit him. If you watch it, you'll see three great big tanks in the back while that is on. In every area out there, they had those tanks. I took down all of those tanks in all of the areas out there and cleaned them enough that all of the metal was shipped to Japan. And that's the first time any metal, that I know of, was shipped of off the Hanford site to go anyplace except for the burial ground. But in the process of doing that, we started out doing it the way they that our RCT and everything said that we were supposed to do it. We cleared I don't know how many pounds and shipped them down here to Pasco. From Pasco, they went to Seattle and was put aboard ship. Well, before they left the Hanford area, they were surveyed to be cleaned. We shipped them down to the 1100 Area. When they left the 1100 Area, they were surveyed again. They shipped them down to Pasco. When they left Pasco to go to Seattle, they were surveyed again. When they got to Seattle, before they put them aboard ship, they were surveyed again. Got to Seattle, getting ready to put them on board ship, and they found I don't know, I'll say ten milligrams on one corner of one piece of metal. They stopped it right there. Everything that they hadn't loaded aboard ship they sent back to Kennewick. All of it. I was on my way home when it was on a Friday evening. And how they knew where I was, I have no idea, but they found me. I was in the Towne Crier down here in Richland. Guy came in. He say, I've been looking for you. I said, what do you want with me? He say, you got to go to work in the morning. I say, no, I don't. He say, yes, you do. He say, I got to have RCTs. You need to go and get ahold of Ray Jennings and get some riggers and O’Reilly, get some riggers, and crane operators, and all that stuff and we got to be out there are 8 o'clock in the morning. Says, oh. So anyway, we got it all done. I drove up out there probably at 7, 7:30 or so. We all gathered around and everything. Pretty soon, here come a guy that I've never seen before. He came in. He got out of the car, he came over, he spoke to everyone. He say, who's in charge of this project? I said, well, I guess I am. He said, well, I don't need you to guess. He say, either you or your aren't. I said, well, I'm in charge of this project. He said, come over here. He says, you haven't done anything wrong according to the RWP. He say, but we found some contamination and we can't have that. He say, so today, you are going to go step-by-step through everything that you did in order to release this metal. I told him, okay. So I call my RCTs, I get my riggers and everything. We get a panel out. And we lay it out for him. And you got to lay it out in feet, every square foot, you know, is a square. And then there's a certain amount of time that you should take to go over that square foot. And he watched us. He says, you're doing everything right if that's the way you did. I say, that's the way we did it. Well, I got the RCT head supervisor there. I got the rigger supervisor and everybody saying, well, this is the way we do it. He says, okay. He says, but how do I know—and I'll give you a for instance on what I'm talking about here—when you cut a piece of metal with a torch, you get something like the rim of this glass, where the metal actually rolls as it melts. He say, how do I know it's not contaminated underneath there? I say, well, I guess I really don't, except the instruments that we use is supposed to detect anything a quarter of an inch deep. He say, that's not good enough. He say, because some of that slag is better than a quarter of an inch. He said, have you ever heard of a Ludlum? Well, now, there's none of us out there that ever heard of a Ludlum, which is a radiation detector machine. We'd never heard of it. He says, well, that's what I want you to use. He was from Washington, DC, the Pentagon. [LAUGHTER] I said, uh-oh. But anyway, he says, I'm going back this afternoon. You will not survey or ship anymore metal off of here until I am satisfied that it's clean. I told him, okay. He went back to Washington, DC. This was like on a Wednesday. On a Monday morning, I had eight Ludlums. I'd never seen the things before. So I give them to my RCTs. And they had instruction with them. And the two kids live in Kennewick now, they read the instructions and everything, tried them out and everything. And then they became the instructors to teach other people how to use the Ludlum. Battelle has a program where that they have to certify all of the machines that are used on the Hanford site. Well, they didn't get their hands on these. So I'm working. I get a call from Battelle. And they tell me, say, Vanis, I understand you've got some machines out there that didn't come through us. I said, I don't know who they came through. But I said, they sent them to me. I said, so I got them. And I'm using them. You can't use them because they're not certified. I say, that's not what I was told. So I tell them exactly what I was told, who told me, where I got them from and everything. You got to bring them in here. I said, nope. I'm not bringing them in there. I say, I was told by the head from Washington, DC what to do. And that's what I'm going to do. Anyway, I had to go down and sit on their lap and talk with them, get them to understand that, hey, you can buck whoever you want to up there. I'm not going to do it. Well, anyway, they finally got it all squared away that they weren't going to get these machines and that I was going to use them because they had been overridden by Washington, DC. So then I got to get all that metal and everything cleared and it went to Japan. And one of things I can remember he told me before he left that evening, he say, you're doing a good job. But the thing I don't want is for one of my grandkids to get contaminated sitting up working on a computer where you have sent some contaminated metal and they made computers out of and sent it back over here. That was an interesting one. [LAUGHTER] Arata: I can imagine. And what year would that have been? Daniels: That would've been in '95 or '96. Arata: Okay. Well, I wonder if we could just wrap up. Obviously, the Cold War in this time period, kind of a very conflicted legacy. Most of my students were not alive during that time. So they have sort of a limited window into it. So I wonder of you could just tell us a little bit about, in your experience, living through and working at Hanford during much of this time period of the Cold War, just maybe what changed over the course of time, if anything in terms of—like I know the NAACP eventually came to Hanford at did some good work later on. Sort of what that experience was of living through that change. Daniels: Okay, one of the things that happened was in '68, I believe it was, about that time anyway, I was working in the 325 Building and Decon at the time. And I saw this gentleman, oh, for the better part of a week walking around. In the building, he'd always nod his head, you know, speak. I'd speak, go on about my work. Whatever he was doing, he'd go on about it too. My supervisor, one morning, told me, he stays, I need you to stay here, answer the phone. He say, take any work orders that come in. He say, and if you need to go and estimate a job, you know how to do it, go do it. I got to go to a meeting. I'll be back. I says, okay. So he went on to the meeting. And when he came back, he says, I told you something was going to happen. He say, heads are going to roll around here. I said, what are you talking about? He says, remember, they got all these blacks out here. I say, yeah. He say, 90% of them are janitors. I say, yes. He say, that guy that's been walking around in this building? I say, yes? He say, he's head of DoE. He's from Washington. And he's been observing all of the jobs, the people that are doing the jobs, the people that are in the jobs, the education that the people have, and the whole ball of wax. And he just told us that we got three weeks to start transferring some of these people into some of these jobs. He say, because you can't tell me you got that many black people out here and don't none of them have enough sense to do anything but janitorial work. He say, I know better. [LAUGHTER] So that's when they started diversifying and sending people to all different jobs and all that stuff. Because before then, most of them were janitors, I think. I got a cousin that worked in a lab, one supervisor, one operator—that was about it. Everybody else mostly were janitors. But, again, see, you're looking at an area when they start hiring blacks out there. Most of them had been here since the early '40s. They had worked construction out there and all that stuff. But none of them had ever been able to get a job in what I call production. They hired them all. They hired them as janitors. They were already elderly people. And when I say elderly, some of them may have been as young as in their 40s. But most of them only worked ten, 12 years, and they retired. They were that old. Some of them didn't want to do anything else except janitorial work. A whole bunch of the younger people actually went on and became Teamsters and electricians and pipefitters and all that stuff. But that was the first time that a lot of the blacks had ever had a steady job in their life. And they, in the run of a year, they probably made is much or more money than they ever made in their life because they had a steady job. You got a paycheck 52 weeks to the year, with a vacation, which they had never had before. So they didn't want to branch out per se, a lot of them didn't, because I know some of the people that I worked with, many have gotten in 12 years out there and they retired. They just weren't interested in killing the world at their age. They just weren't interested in it. We first went to hot standby they call it. In other words, hot standby is when you redo everything, you rebuild everything. You get it ready to go if you need to go back into production. Then they go from what they call hot standby they downgraded it to just cold standby. When they did that, then after about six months we went in, we start draining everything. This is all the oils, all the antifreeze if you had antifreeze, whatever you had that was liquid, we start draining all this stuff out of all the equipment and everything. You started taking out all the electrical stuff. And they had spent millions and millions and millions of dollars upgrading all this stuff. You've got engines, diesel engines just in case you had a nuclear attack or something to that effect that once the electricity went off, the engines kicked off and kept the reactors running. One of those engines is longer than this building is this way, and they rebuilt them all. And the only time they started, they just started them up enough to make sure that they were working and they shut them off. We drained everything out of all those engines, and then they took them out, and when I left they were still in the buildings. I think they've since sold them to someone, but that means that you can't start it back up. If you want to, you've got to put all new stuff in. Well, in 1943, when they built the B Reactor, when they started it, 13 months it was online. Try to build a reactor today. 40 years from now it won't be online. Because the government took and they put all of these entities into place. And it's a safety precaution as far as that go. But see they didn't put any restrictions on these people. And that's just the ecology, ERDA, all those people, they don't have any restrictions on them. And you get all of these in--if I hit you on the toe, don't holler ouch too hard--but young people are the worst in the bunch because the only thing they know is what they read in a book. And the book is just a guideline for you to use this up here, because there's no two things out there that's ever going to be the same. And DoE put young people in positions out here to tell people that have been working and doing this job for 30 and 40 years and they tell them what to do instead of coming out there asking some questions and trying to learn? Because the book don't tell you nothing. Do you cook? Arata: I do. Daniels: Okay. You go get a recipe, you fix the food exactly like the recipe says. It's not always good to you. But now if you are allowed to put your flair into it, then it's good, right? That's the same thing with a life. That's just the way life is. You've got to learn, and you do it by trial and error. And they don't have any business out there. I had a guy, 27 years old or roughly there, shut one of my jobs down. He did not ask the questions that he should ask. He just saw it and shut it down. You're not going to do this and you're not going to do that. Well, when you're talking to a rigger that's been rigging for 40 years, he know when he's in danger and when he's not. He didn't live that long by being stupid. Well anyway, it all comes down to not putting a barrier around where he was working. Well, he's got to be able to see the rigger down here, up here, and then he signals the crane operator. Well, if you can't see the rigger down in that hole, you can't signal the crane operator. And he shut my job down because this guy didn't have a barrier between him and the hole where he could look down in there and see the rigger. They shut it down. I had to go to a critique. And we talked about it and the rigger told him, he says, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. He said, you just shut a job down, he say, and you've got all these suits sitting up in here and making all this money and the job's still not done. But those are the things you have put up with, too. Arata: Absolutely. Well, sir, is there anything else that I haven't asked you about, any final stories you'd like to share? Daniels: I don't know. Maybe he got something he want to ask me. You got anything you want to ask me? I am just here. Just ask me whatever you want to ask me, and if I know, I'll tell you. If I don't, I'll say I don't know. Arata: I guess my one sort of follow-up question, we've heard from a couple other interviewees about having some definite run-ins with the KKK. Did you ever have any experience with the KKK in the area? Daniels: No, I never did. Now I do have a friend in Kennewick that tells me that they used to have meetings right up here on Jump-Off Joe. But no, I never ran into any. If I did, I didn't know who they were. Never had that experience, because we still might be fighting if I had. [LAUGHTER] Arata: I think that covers all my questions. I want to thank you so much for coming and sharing your stories and experiences with us. I really appreciate it. Daniels: My brother, he's got probably--let's see, I worked out there about 15 years all total and I think he's got 36 or 37 or 38, so he can probably tell you a lot more than me. Arata: We'll get him next week. We're looking forward to it. Well, thank you so much, Vanis. Daniels: Okay. You're welcome. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:20:42 Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 100-F 3706 Building 3707 Building 200 East 200 West B Reactor 1100 Area 325 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1966-1971 1989-1997 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Heidlebar, Rebecca Johnson, Louzel Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 230 kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vanis Daniels Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation Nuclear reactors Radioactive decontamination Nuclear facilities Baseball Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/14/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-08-04: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Description An account of the resource Vanis Daniels moved to Pasco, Washington in 1951 as a teenager and began working on the Hanford Site in 1966. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities 1100 Area 300 Area 3706 Building 3707 Building B Reactor BU reactor Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6db522bd5dd76e3750a404b383da3b41.JPG c242a4ba8344155595e6fb257908f934 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbfc34c0c8b8917e0671f608d2604c421.mp4 09c71f39c1bb58e676d37b1c5671e8f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Vanessa Moore Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Velma Ray Location The location of the interview Home of Velma Ray (Pasco, WA) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Interview with Velma Ray. Interviewed by Vanessa Moore. Vanessa Moore: This is an interview this afternoon with Miss Velma Ray. Velma is a Tri-Citian who was involved with work out at the Hanford Project during the Manhattan Project era, 1943-1945. And she’s here to share some of her information and experiences with us. Mrs. Ray, how are you today? Velma Ray: Fine. Moore: Great. I’m going to ask you several questions and you feel free to just share any stories or information that you would like with us, and we would appreciate that. First of all, let’s start off by finding out when you came to Hanford. What year was that? Ray: We came to Hanford from Mare Island Navy Yard in California. I was working on the Mare Island Navy Yard and my husband was working. He was a cement finisher and I was a welder. And I went to school, their welding school. And they say I learnt how to weld quicker than any student went through that school. And I was out on the shipyard and I got two raises from the time we left. And so my husband he, I guess the man that my husband—I was drawing more money than he was, and he kept talking, why, if I could just make that Pasco job, if I could just make that Pasco job. I was wondering why he wanted to leave when I was making good money. And you know when we left there, we didn’t have time to get my check and we left my whole back check, you know. And then we was in Hanford and we’d been working there I guess about six months, and finally, you know what, they sent me my money. And I wondered how did they find me? Would’ve been too bad if I’d been a criminal, because they’d’ve found me anyway. Thank God I’m a Christian; I don’t think about that. But I just thank God that they did find me and send me my check. And I thought we was going to get a welding job in Pasco. But I didn’t. We went to work at the mess hall. Moore: What year was that? Ray: That’s the same year we got here. Moore: In 1940--? Ray: ‘42. Mm-hmm. Because they was working when we got here. Because the job was already going on. I guess that’s why my husband kept on talking about, if I could just make that Pasco job. I didn’t know what the Pasco job he was talking about ‘til we got here. Moore: How did you hear about it, or how did he hear about jobs out here? Ray: I guess on the job where he working at. Moore: What type of work did he do in California? Ray: Cement finishing. Moore: Cement finishing? Ray: Mm-hmm. Moore: And, he decided to come, I understand, just looking for more wages, that he could do better here. And so you all came and brought the family. How many children did you have? Ray: We had three children at the time and we had left them in Alabama with my parents. Moore: Where did you first stay when you arrived here? Ray: We had a little a trailer. Moore: Was it in Pasco? Richland? Ray: It was in Pasco. Moore: What did this area look like when you came? The cities, were they big cities? Ray: A desert, no, it was so––just almost a desert. It didn’t rain for about three years when we came out here. Didn’t see a drop of rain. And those dust storms would come up and I cried. And one time I went to wash my clothes and had the whole lot on the line. Time I hung the last piece up, a big dust storm come and broke the line. And I just cried and went in the house. I said, Lord, I just want to leave. If somebody give me a place here, I wouldn’t—I’d say, no thank you, you can have it. Because I was ready to go back to somewhere. I thought I was fed up with Pasco. But you know it’s a funny thing. There’s something about Pasco. When you come out here and you meet more people and you leave, you want to come back. And it’s just––I just thank God; it’s a blessing to be in Pasco. Moore: Well, that’s great. You mentioned you lived in a trailer; did you ever at any time live in a one of the trailer camps out at Hanford, or the barracks? Ray: Just the barracks. The barracks. And the women barracks, it was a funny thing. We could either go down to barracks where our husband at, because it was too dangerous, unless he come, you know. But they would come up to the sitting room. They would sit there just like courting, and then he had to leave here and go back to his barracks. Moore: Were the barracks segregated by race at that time, or just male and female? Ray: No, just male and female. Moore: You mentioned it was dangerous. What made it was dangerous? Ray: You want me to tell that? Moore: Sure. Ray: Those men was raping women so bad. And so, I hate to tell this. Because one thing—see, I didn’t know it was dangerous as it was. And when I was on my way down to go—you know, a woman would go where her husband at at that time. Usually, usually you could go where he was, but this was a time, it was too dangerous. And I didn’t know that. And I don’t think he knew it. And I was walking down, then after while a man comes coming up to me, and I said, don’t you see my husband? And I just lied. And you know, God was with me. Because if I hadn’t’ve told them lies, I don’t know what they would have done. But they was coming’ up to me, Lady, so-and-so––. I said, don’t you see my husband? And that was not my husband; that was just a man about as far from as that tree. And they would leave me alone. By the time I get that far, I had said, don’t you see my husband?––Oh, Lord, I had so many husbands! Moore: It was a little bit scary. Ray: And God took care of me. When I got to that barracks, I fell across that bed. I told my husband I was never coming down there no more. And I wouldn’t either. Moore: I can understand. Ray: But he would come up there and get me. Because I wasn’t going down there no more. I was so—I’m even nervous, now, just to think about what I would do. Moore: Mm-hmm. Ray: Girl, talk about some hard praying. I was praying every step of the way. Moore: You mentioned when we spoke earlier that you also worked out at Hanford. And, tell us a little bit about what type work you did. Ray: We did Mess Hall #2. Oh, there was so many people here. There was about five mess halls. There was quite a few mess halls. But I worked in Mess Hall #2. Another lady, we worked, and we was hotline girls. And food was already set up on a table when men come to the door to walk in. And it was two hotline girlsand we had to, it was plates, bowls with hot food. And when the mens come in that door, we would have to go by that couch and stack that food up on our arms about four or five dishes. And how I done it, I don’t know. But they taught us how. And then we get in a hurry, never stop walking, just giving them food from one side of the table to the other one. And by that time, get another one. In about five or ten minutes, the whole thing was set up. And me and that girl, we laughed about it because a lot of time, them bosses, they stand there and watch us. I see them smiling. Because we were running, we set that table up so fast. They talked about how good we was. Moore: It sounds like all of the needs of the workers were met, that this was not a place that they came in, like a restaurant, and bought their food. It was provided. Ray: No, no, no. Just like, just like, you know, set the tables. And they had had everything else already set on the tables ‘cept hot food. And that’s all we had to put on there. That was why we could do it so quickly. They had the tables set up. Just that quick. Moore: Tell me a little about your husband’s work. You mentioned he was a cement finisher. And what type of work did he do here? And did he talk about it? Tells us a little about that. Ray: Well, I tell you what he done. He was a cement finisher in California, when we lived in California, come out here. He built some houses afterward. But when he working at Hanford job, we wasn’t allowed to talk. They had a sign up, talk with nobody about your work. [camera operator]: Okay, keep talking. Ray: And we couldn’t talk about our work. So that’s why a lot time, we don’t even know what was going on, because it was a secret job. But I do know they was building ammunitions to fight. Moore: Ammunition? Ray: Right. Moore: And, your husband’s name? Ray: Joe Williams. Moore: Pardon me? Ray: Joe Williams. Moore: Joe Williams. Thank you. Moore: And now, basically, you were both contributing to the effort because the war was on at this time, right? Employer–wise, did you know what the company name was, or just the project name? That you worked for, was it the DuPont Company, or that he worked for--? Ray: Well, I don’t think he worked for the same company. Because we was working for the people that served the food in the mess halls. Moore: So it was all the same. Same company, Hanford Works. Ray: Mm-hmm. Moore: Do you feel you were, that the working conditions, and how managers or supervisors treated the workers, what did you think about that? Ray: They treated them real nice. Real nice. Moore: You talked a little bit about the dust storms, and one of the questions I had is, what was the hardest— [VIDEO CUTS] <a href="https://youtu.be/Gw4Pzo1gEZY">View interivew on Youtube.</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Velma Ray Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Migration Description An account of the resource Velma Ray moved to Pasco, Washington to work on the Hanford Site during the Manhattan Project. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2d12e511c0f98a1b679e62e5b732df6f.jpg a25b3c33a6df6a53d897a963aef6d585 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F6b9f5558f656637cb3b93737c55c1a03.mp4 4027a5553d6ebc76f09062dc2ec2eab2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vicki Berndt Description An account of the resource An interview with Vicki Berndt conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F82dcdba7c4df618133ad558cac24be65.JPG 207a1551c47f5fd4414658a7299c8eb4 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8320bb80772d2eab849c90d8c36275a6.mp4 ef9406b4fef35c9c6a5b78ec9e9d5161 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Vanessa Moore Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Virgina Crippen Location The location of the interview Home of Virginia Crippen (Pasco, WA) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Vanessa Moore: --Vanessa Moore. I’m a member of the Triple-A-S History and Recognition Committee. This afternoon, I’m sitting here speaking with Miss Virginia Crippen. Virginia is going to talk with us a little about her experience here in the Pasco area in the early years in the ‘40s-‘50s timeframe and after that. So, Miss Crippen, we’re glad to be here and we appreciate you taking time to talk to us. First I want to start out by asking you, when did you first arrive in town? Virginia Crippen: In 1948. Moore: And how did you come? Did you come alone? Crippen: I come alone. Moore: What made you decide to come to this area? Crippen: Oh, well, there was work here. I opened up a business here. Moore: What kind of business? Crippen: Chicken. I sold chicken and barbecue. Moore: Oh, so you had your own restaurant? Crippen: Yes, I had my own place. Moore: I see. Was that the type of business that you had prior to coming here? Crippen: No, I didn’t. Moore: And where did you come from, what state? Crippen: I was born and raised in Texas, but I come from Portland, Oregon here. Moore: What had you been doing there? Crippen: Working in the shipyard. Moore: What kind of work? Crippen: I was a sweeper, they called it, at the shipyard. Moore: So you decided to leave there and— Crippen: Mm-hmm, I heard there was work here and there was no place for blacks to eat. So I come to Pasco to better my condition, I guess, that’s what you would call it. Moore: And so then also provide something for black people that they didn’t have. Crippen: Yeah. Moore: So was this just something you read about, that there were opportunities, or you knew someone who was already here by any chance? Crippen: Not—yes, very few people. Moore: Could you think of their names? Crippen: Yeah, I knew Bertha Smith. No, I met them when I come here. Really didn’t. Moore: Not too many people. Crippen: Not too many people. Moore: Where did you set up your business, your restaurant? Crippen: On 8th Street, east Pasco. Moore: And why did you choose east Pasco? Crippen: Because I didn’t have no other choice. Moore: Why was that? Crippen: Because they didn’t allow the blacks to have business no place else. Moore: So there were restrictions for where blacks could work and live also? Crippen: Yes. Moore: At that time, about how many black people or families do you think, would you say there were living here? Crippen: You know, there was—it wasn’t too many, but so many lived in the barracks. You know, men that couldn’t bring their families right away. They would come over. Moore: So they lived in the barracks but they would come to— Crippen: Yeah, and have chicken on weekends, barbecue. Moore: What was the name of your business? Crippen: It was really the Montana, but they called it the Chicken Shack. Or let’s go to Virginia’s. Moore: Let’s go to Virginia’s? Crippen: Uh-huh, or the Chicken Shack. Moore: That’s good. Got to be pretty well known, didn’t it? Crippen: Yup. [LAUGHTER] Moore: Let’s see here. Over the years, how did things go? Did you hear about what was going on out there? Did your customers say much about work out at Hanford? Crippen: No, they really didn’t. Because I worked mostly by myself and I was the cook and the bouncer. [LAUGHTER] So I didn’t do much talking. Moore: Did you serve liquor there? Crippen: No. Moore: Tell us what you think about the conditions for people in general living here, for black people living and working out here. Was it good, bad? Crippen: Talk about Pasco, you know, I didn’t work out there. But we had it tough here. The bank wouldn’t lend you no money. It’s just luck that I worked all my life and I saved a little money to establish my business and make it the best I could. Because we couldn’t even borrow money from the banks. Even in Kennewick, you couldn’t borrow no money from no banks. They didn’t even want you in Kennewick, period, black people. Pasco wouldn’t lend you no money. It was just tough. But if you had your own money, you could survive in east Pasco. Moore: And it sounds as though it’s a good thing that businesses like yours were here. Crippen: Yes. Moore: Because what other choices did the blacks have? Could they go eat anywhere they wanted to? Crippen: No. No, we couldn’t even go to the Top Hat, none of those places, and eat when I come in ’48. Moore: Stop for a second. I’m trying to-- [VIDEO CUTS] Crippen: Don’t put it on my yet until you tell me— [off-screen]: That’s all right. Moore: Virginia, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your business. Did you have any specialties? What did the customers like to come in there most for? Crippen: Chicken or barbecue. Moore: Chicken or barbecue. Special recipe? Crippen: Not really. But everybody think it was a special recipe, because I—I have told people how I fix it, and they say they go home and fix it and it didn’t turn out like that. Moore: Did you only have black customers? Did other people come in? Crippen: No, I had Spanish and white. And black. Moore: Tell me a little more about that. You said something when we were off-tape. Crippen: Well, I fixed orders to take out, and I barbecued, fixed turkeys for people to take out. They was white. But I did have a lot of white customers that come in and sit down and eat, and Spanish, and blacks. So we mixed and all got along good. Moore: And you were willing to serve everyone? Crippen: Yes. Didn’t refuse nobody. Moore: Now, was it like that throughout the area, or were there other businesses who did? Crippen: Oh, no. We couldn’t eat at the bus station, we couldn’t eat at Pay Less, we couldn’t eat at Top Hat. We couldn’t eat no place. In fact, they wouldn’t serve us. Moore: So this was during the ‘40s, during that time. Crippen: Yes. It was ’40— Moore: Were there signs saying no coloreds? How did— Crippen: No, I didn’t see a sign. But when you get there they say, sorry, we just can’t serve you. Moore: For no reason. Were there other black-owned businesses? Crippen: Yes, Mrs. Wright had a trailer court. Moore: Was that located in Pasco? Crippen: East Pasco. Moore: And tell us again why most blacks lived in east Pasco. Crippen: Because they didn’t have no other choice. They lived in tents, cardboard houses, made the siding out of cardboard, the top canvas. The best they could do, because there was no place to live and it was work out at Hanford. Moore: Is that where most of the blacks worked? Crippen: Yes. Moore: So we have to presume the money was pretty good. Crippen: Yes. Moore: They’re willing to live in those conditions to stay here. Crippen: Miss Haney. Moore: Miss Haney? Crippen: Had a restaurant, too. Moore: Oh, she did? What was her restaurant called? Crippen: I don’t know, but Miss Haney—Haney’s Place. Moore: So later on as Hanford kind of wound down and people stayed in the area, could you tell us a little bit about how the area changed? Or maybe even before that, what did it look like when you got here? Were there a lot of houses, or just a small— Crippen: No. It’s sagebrush. [LAUGHTER] There wasn’t many houses. East Pasco didn’t have—very few. And then white people lived in east Pasco. Because it wasn’t many blacks when I come. But it was some blacks but it was no more—I can’t remember but five families at most, or four. Moore: This was in the late ‘40s? Crippen: Been here for years, yeah, when I come here. Moore: So the Manhattan Project had actually finished up by ’48 when you came, but blacks had remained. Crippen: Yes. Moore: Are the names of any people that are still here now that were here back then that you can recollect? Crippen: Yes. Luzell Johnson and his sister, Velma, sister, Bertha, they were here when I come here. The old-timers was here when I come here. They’d been here for years, but they all dead now. And I can’t really remember their names right now. Moore: Now, did you raise a family here, too? Crippen: I had one son. Moore: One son. And is he still in the area, or--? Crippen: He went to school here, finished school here. [VIDEO CUTS] [off-screen]: Go ahead. Moore: Virginia, I want to ask you a little more about some of the other businesses. Tell me about Johnny Reed. Crippen: Johnny Reed had a club. Moore: It was a dance club? Crippen: Yes, they could dance. And I had barbecue and chicken, too. It was like an after-hours club. Moore: So he served liquor there, and was it a popular place? Crippen: Yes, it was. Now he had practically all white, but blacks went, too. But he had a lot of white customers. In the beginning—it was afterhours. Moore: Where was it located? Crippen: On 8th Street, east Pasco. Moore: Another local business owner, Tommy Moore, could you tell me a little bit about him? Crippen: Oh, yes, Tommy Moore had a business downtown by the underpass. It was a beautiful place, a brick—a hotel and a downstairs restaurant, very nice place. Moore: Do you remember the name of his restaurant? Crippen: No, I don’t. Been so many years. So we just said—everybody just said, going down to Tommy’s. [LAUGHTER] Moore: There was somebody named Jackson, Jackson’s Tavern? Crippen: Yes, he had a nice little tavern. He built it. It was nice and had a restaurant in it. It was really nice. Moore: And then Sally’s. Crippen: Sally sold good food, very good food. Moore: You had a little competition. Crippen: [LAUGHTER] Really? But Sally sold lunches. I didn’t have nothing but chicken and barbecue, but she had pies and everything. She had good food. Moore: And was there a business owner named Lillian that you recall? Crippen: Yes, her and her husband had a barber shop. Then she started building a business, but she didn’t finish it. She left and went to California. She never finished her business, but her and her husband had a barber shop on Oregon Street. Moore: So there were business owners that had restaurants and places to eat and places to go for recreation and there were other services that blacks needed, of course, like get our hair done or the barber. Were there people to provide that? Crippen: No, not really, until later. Then Mrs.—she had a nice beauty shop. Moore: Maybe Mrs. Newborne. Crippen: Mrs. Newborne, yeah. Mrs. Newborne had a nice beauty shop on Oregon Street in east Pasco. Moore: So there were more opportunities for people to come in and set up businesses. Crippen: Mm-hmm, yes. Moore: Now, before that, what was the experience like trying to have some of these things, just at white-owned businesses? If I needed to have some dry cleaning done or my hair done? Crippen: Well, that was out of the question. We couldn’t even eat at the bus station. We couldn’t eat at Pay Less. We couldn’t eat no place in downtown Pasco, the white-owned. That’s the only place they had places to eat that I know about, was downtown. And we couldn’t go to those. Moore: How about shopping for clothing or groceries? Crippen: Oh, yes, you could go in all the grocery stores and dress shops and all and spend your money. And they treat you nice. You know, you spending your money. But you better not go to the bank and ask to borrow some money. You could put money in the bank, but you sure couldn’t borrow any money from the bank. Moore: So there were just certain boundaries that were set. Crippen: Yes, yes. [LAUGHTER] Moore: Okay. I want to thank you for taking time to give us this information. If there are names of other people that we should speak with, we have some—also some photos that we’d like to show you here later and there may be individuals that you recognize and we do appreciate—the History and Recognition Committee appreciates your time and the information that you’ve provided and everything you’ve done for the community. Thank you very much. Crippen: You’re welcome. [VIDEO CUTS] [camera operator]: Okay, go ahead. Moore: Testing the microphone to see if it’s working. Vanis Daniels: --but I can’t remember where I know him from. She look a little bit like Miss James. Miss James’ sister. Crippen: Oh, Miss James had a trailer court! Y’all got that? [VIDEO CUTS] Crippen: On Front Street in East Pasco. Daniels: She just got through telling us that. Crippen: Sure, she didn’t lie when she told you. Wasn’t no black church. I remember when they built Morning Star. And he died, little old short guy. Daniels: Mm-hmm, Reverend— Crippen: And he had children here. You know she played piano for New Hope—not New Hope, Greater Faith all the time. She hasn’t been dead that long. Mary? Daniels: Yeah, Mary Calhoun. Crippen: Mary Calhoun played the piano. But he sure did, he— <a href="https://youtu.be/7KrDyWUYEbg"> View interview on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1948- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Virginia Crippen Subject The topic of the resource Pasco (Wash.) Restaurant owners Discrimination Segregation Description An account of the resource Virginia Crippen moved to Pasco, Washington in 1948 and was a successful business owner. An interview conducted by the African American Community Cultural and Educational Society (AACCES) as part of an oral history project documenting the lives of African Americans in the Tri-Cities during the Manhattan Project and Cold War. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource African American Community Cultural and Educational Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mpg https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdb714eb8d8af5be33e073536fd17169c.jpg e55e4b7cf327dc0066589efabaeb5c28 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F2c61ccb81c1d241e7db21d35f880460f.mp4 298b9aae8aac97fb3171e3ee0b45a7b5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sather, Virginia Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Sather_Virginia Man one: Yes. I’m recording. And okay. Robert Bauman: Okay. We're going to go ahead and get started. I thought we'd start by having you say your name and spell your last name for us. Virginia Sather: Virginia Sather--S-A-T-H-E-R. Bauman: Thank you. My name's Robert Bauman, and today's date is October 16th, 2013. And we're recording this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So I wonder if we could start by having you tell me what brought you to Hanford, when you came here, why you came. Sather: Well, I was working at a Navy hospital near Los Angeles, California in what they called ship service. It's a PX in the Army. And I was more or less recruited to work in the PX at Hanford Recreation Building, and in that building, they had a beer hall, and a soda fountain, and a ten-pin bowling alley, and the PX. Just kind of a service place where everything was based on the Army. The barracks and mess halls, it was all Army language. I'd been used to Navy language. And I called my sister, and I was telling her about it in Des Moines, Iowa where I was born and raised, and oh, she said, that sounds good. They told us they'd pay our way out. And your room and board would be furnished in your pay. And if you stayed at least four months, you got your way paid back. So we thought, well, we could try for four months. Her husband had just been in the Medical Corps, and he'd been in the European theater. And at that time, they were sending some European theater people over to the Japanese theater, and she was going to be alone anyway, maybe ‘til the end of the war. So she said well, let's do it. So that's what we did. So we came into to Pasco in the middle of the night with the train. Next morning, came out to--taken out to Hanford and processed and all. Just everything, just click, click, click. And we got used to standing in line for everything. And I don't mean a little line. I mean like lines we'd never seen before--blocks long. One grocery store, one drugstore, one Sears order office. Just one of anything for 50,000, 60,000 people. That would be like having one of everything in Kennewick. So I don't know, we just--her husband—then his orders were changed, as sometimes happen in the military, at the last minute, he's actually on a ship going over to the Pacific area. And they changed, and he was sent back to the States. So she stayed her four months. By that time, she got this notice. And so she left, so I was on my own by then. And I just thought, well, I'll just stick it out because it's a pretty good job, and I met my husband-to-be, and I don't know. We kept thinking, well, when the war's over, we'll be laid off. The time came and went, and we didn't get laid off. And they shut down some reactors, and we said well, we're going to be laid off. At that time, I was working in a fuels production section for N Reactor and my husband was the manager in fuels production for the older reactors, what they called the Al-Si fuels. So we said, we're going to be laid off. They shut down the reactors, but they just took the Al-Si people and transferred them over to my section and I'm the one that got laid off. Other people got laid off. But I didn't actually get laid off, because we were on an excess list, and there was another opening in research and development. So I went there, and something—and then they dismantled that in three years. So then I went out to the N Reactor. So I was actually in several reactor areas and all the production separations areas. So when one door closed, another one opened up, and I just was flexible enough to go with the flow. And here I am, 40 years later. Well actually, I worked 40 years, so it's 70 years later because I've been retired for 30 years. Bauman: Do you remember your first impressions when you--coming from Los Angeles to Pasco and Richland? Sather: Well, of course, the area surrounding Los Angeles is actually a semi-desert. And of course, everything was dug up, so there was just dust, dust everywhere, just heavy equipment everywhere—the whole 600 square miles. And there was a lack of a lot to do because the hospital where I worked was about 40 miles. It'd been a former country club when the Navy took it over. And had indoor pools, outdoor pools, golf course, and the whole nine yards, so there was lots to do. And on the weekends, we'd go into LA or wherever, Hollywood, everywhere, sometimes clear to San Diego if we could--transportation was very scarce during the war. Find somebody who had gas and hitch a ride. [LAUGHTER] And yeah, that was my first impression. I guess I was like most people. I must've missed something when I was in my geography class in grade school, because I, like a lot of people, I was looking for forests and mountains. But I was used to flat-flat coming from Iowa. But of course, there was lots of woods in Iowa. I guess being young--I don't know. What was I? 21, 20, 21. I guess I was 21. Yeah, I was very flexible. I had changed jobs different times before. I guess I was kind of adventuresome for those times. Sometimes the older people criticized me because by the time I was 21, I'd been in several states. One summer, my cousin and her husband had a carnival that went all over the South and Midwest, and they took me on one summer and I travelled with that carnival. So I just got used to making do, also just making do, not expecting any luxuries, places to stay, or anything like that. So it was primitive. The barracks were just bare floors and cots and a washroom. They were H shaped, so the cross in the center was the wash rooms and the barbed wire all around. Looked more like a prison camp, actually. I know when we moved to Richland and they had a Prisoner-of-War camp out on the Yakima River near the dam, Horn Rapids, near there. And we went to Benton City by way of that road one time, and we saw that, and I said, oh, look. It looks like the Hanford—[LAUGHTER]—original Hanford. Yeah, it's kind of primitive, but I think young people nowadays may be kind of spoiled. I don't know whether they would really put up with that, what we put up with then. Bauman: You said you were sort of recruited. What were you told about Hanford? Did you know what was being worked on? Sather: Well, actually, they talked to me first about Alaska. And then even before I talked to my sister about it, a recruiter called me and said, oh, the weather has been so bad out there, they put a stop to everything for a while. But I've got this place that's just as good in eastern Washington. And there's going to be a lot of young people. It turned out, there was a lot of old people, too, because the middle type people were in the army or in the military. And of course, there was probably 100 men to every female. There were just very few women. And mostly because of the housing, because a lot of women in those days would be married by that time. And if they came, it was the same situation. You still had to be separated in the barracks. And the men didn't like that at all, so they'd go to Yakima or Walla Walla or someplace searching for housing. But the women liked it, because the housekeeping was all done for you. The beds were made, the linens were changed, the bathroom was cleaned, and you had the mess hall, all the food you wanted at the mess hall. I think the women really liked it. Of course, I was not married and didn't have any children, but the ones that did, I think they thought it was kind of a vacation. Bauman: And how long did you stay in the dormitories then—or the barracks? Sather: Well, the dormitories were in Richland, so-- Bauman: Oh, the barracks-- Sather: Yeah, we can't say dormitories because they weren't that fancy. They were built in Richland for the operation people. That's where people's going to stay. They must have opened in '45 down on Lee Boulevard. One of the buildings is still there on the corner across from the Federal Building. That was the cafeteria. Then they all down Lee and Knight Street where they had the post office and the bank. They were two-story dormitories, and I never lived in there because by that time, I was married. So then we were assigned to a house in Richland. Bauman: How long were you in the women's barracks then? Sather: Oh, '43, '44. Pretty close to two. We closed out Hanford like about, well, right after the war was over. We got our house in '44, and I know I was commuting for a while to Hanford, probably a year and a half. And then we got a house—couldn't get any houses ‘til probably late '44. We got a house in Richland, and we were there ten years, and then we built the house in Kennewick up by the mall, and we've been there ever since. Bauman: You said you met your husband here. How did the two of you meet and where was he working? Sather: Well, people laugh when they hear this story. I have one girlfriend still left from my graduating class, same age I am. She lives out in Manhattan Beach. So when I was in California, she'd gone out with her folks after high school because of the airplane factories, and so we kept in touch. And I saw a lot of her and everything, and she asked my husband about it one time. She asked him, she said, what did you like about Ginger—I was known as Ginger—when you first met her? And he said her spirit, her spirit! And Betty Jean said, have you got enough spirit yet? He said, just about. I think we'd been married about 50 years by then and now we're coming up on 70 now. But I don't know. I was on an afternoon shift at that time, and afternoon shift, we went to--we worked six days, ten to 12 hour days. Supposed to be ten, but people didn't show up. They were gone. People just disappeared. The rules and everything was so strict and security was so strict. Even after we moved into Richland, neighbors would just disappear, especially if they had unruly children. Any little infraction or anything like that, you could disappear. And the FBI, they had total control. It was really like some third world country there for a long while until the city was sold in '58. Your boss or the top guy in DuPont or General Electric, United Nuclear, they could not—caught with a weapon or drinking or any type of malfeasance, I mean, you just disappeared. I mean, no 30 day notice or anything. Looked up, the house was empty. Or maybe you'd look out and see a moving van. Yeah, it was strict. Well anyway, we would have a ten or 12 hour shift. So they had eight mess halls. They could serve 5,000 people in each one of those at a time, and the only one that was 24 hours was number eight. So usually, you'd go with some of your coworkers there after your shift. So he was there. There'd been a guy about age and my father who would come in when it was spare time. He'd talk to me there at the register, at the PX. And he kept telling me, I've got this roommate, this fellow, he's about your age. And I think you should meet him. And I kept thinking, oh my God. What's he trying to pawn off on me? And he kept it up and kept it up, and I kept telling him I was busy or I was booked up or something, anything. But anyway, I got caught dead. He came over to my table at this mess hall in the middle of the night at the end of the shift. I think we got off at midnight that night. And he came dragging this poor guy over. You could tell he didn't want to come. He just had a hold of him and actually pulling him over, and my husband's 6'3" and 189 pounds. [LAUGHTER] And this guy, Reardon, his name was Reardon, he says, this is Dick Sather, and I told him you wanted to meet him. Oh, I'm telling you, it was a good thing there was the rules. And so I said, not particularly. And he went on and so, well he said, well don't you want him to just sit down and visit with you? I said, not particularly. I remember everything he said. People still tease me about it. Not particularly. And my husband the same coloring that I am, but his face still turned red. And of course, he didn't know what to do, young, naive boy. He's six months older than I am. Anyway, so the next time they both came over to my register--and of course they bought some, I don't know, shaving lotion or something. Anyway, so then my husband started coming in. Then it graduated till we went over and sat down in the soda pop place and had soda pop and visited. Well, that went on for about three weeks, and I didn't find out till very much later that my husband-to-be was dating a gal, and he was booked up for this time. And so he was just playing it cool till he could get rid of this other gal, evidently. So anyway, I found that out. Even after I was married, this guy who got us together told me that. And so then we started, if you could call it dating when somebody drops you off in the middle of the night at a barbed wire fence with a guard. They had buses going to Walla Walla, Pasco, and Yakima, and it cost you a nickel. And they said they had to charge that because of the insurance rules. So on your day off--which usually, we got one day off--we would go, see a movie, have dinner and go back to our barracks, and it went like that. And so he bought me a ring. I think it was in March. I met him in January, I think, December. It might have been December, I think. And we were engaged, and then we married--but I didn't want to get married. He said, when do you want to get married? I said, about 30. I was thinking about 30. So then he started talking about, well, he was going to go to Alaska and all this, that and the other. So we had it set for May. My mother-in-law for years still sent my anniversary card in May, but they actually got married in June because they changed the date twice. We got married in June, so in coming June, I'll be married 70 years. Bauman: Wow. Sather: But that's how we met, and that's just the opposite of me. I'm a class A, he's a class B. He's mostly Norwegian and he's pretty laid back. He's one of these, whatever. Whatever you want. Do what you want. Yeah, it's worked out very well, and he's not here with me now because he's lost his memory. Because he could tell you some tales, too. Bauman: You talked about the buses going to Yakima and Walla Walla for entertainment. And was there ever entertainment on the site at all? Sather: No, no. But the surrounding communities did not cater to us at all. You know now, you go to a convention or some big thing in the town, have sale signs and discounts at the restaurants and do everything to welcome you. No, they were very, very provincial. Well, so many of them either got displaced or knew or had a relative or somebody who was displaced because these towns were just seven miles apart. And the families in those times were practically incestuous. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I mean, they just were cousins and aunts and uncles. And I had to be careful because I might be talking to the wrong person. [LAUGHTER] But no, no. Although they tried to make all the money they could, divided their house--just like they did in California and still do--to illegal housing, turn the garage into a room and did everything to make money off of you. They didn't turn any of that down. But no, the natives, they were not friendly. A lot of people remarked on that. We were intruders, and I can see their point of view--we were. Tearing up their land, their orchards, and their vineyards, and their little mint fields, which is all the world to them. People back in those days had never really been out of the county. People didn't travel till the wartime. They didn't marry outside. Of course, with the wartime, they not only married people from another state, they married them from another country. But my time, of course, that was just unheard of ‘til wartime. And the only ones that were halfway decent that could think outside the box enough to see that it was for the war effort, even though they didn't know what it was. They just took it in their stride. But by and large, we later got personally acquainted and socially visited with some of the old timers here that the John Dam Plaza, the John Hazel Dam. He actually came from Norway, but he'd lived here most of his life. He came here as a young man, but there were several people like that. He had a store, a general store, there on George Washington Way. And I found out that this went on all over where people were displaced with--maybe not on that scale, but I mean, an airplane factory went in, or a shipyard went in, or something was expanded, and they got displaced because the government had the right of domain. And I think during the war, the President had all the executive powers that were ever heard of. Bauman: You mentioned that at some point, you were able to get a house. Sather: Yeah. Bauman: Where was that, in Richland? Or what sort of housing were you able to get then? Sather: We got a house. It was a prefab, and I got--I think I gave them to the historical society down at the museum—where they came in sections, I think from Portland. And we were in that a little while, and I got up--it was December 1st. Turned out to be the coldest day of the year. And I smelled smoke. And they had heaters in the wall, 220 heaters in the wall. And then they had 220 wiring that ran inside a wood. Everything was plywood, and it was treated with a propellant, a subtype varnish or something. So it really went up fast. So then we got a pre-cut. And pieces like trusses and all were made in Spokane in a mill, and then came down and put together, there are not very many of those. One was two-bedroom and one was three-bedroom, so we were in that for a while till we built our house, five years I guess until we built our house. But when they did the fire investigation, we found out that's what it was, was electrical. I went in to grab some stuff out of the closets, and we didn't have closet doors, so we just had drapes across there—and they were on fire. But I just overreacted and I grabbed the hangers, which in those days were all wire, and I had blisters all over my hands, and all my hair in the front, my eyebrows were burnt off. So then we got this other house, this precut. And then the investigator came to us and showed us that. And then we went around all those prefabs and rewired them all after that. Because they said the houses they rewired, they found scorch marks in there. So there could've been a lot more fires. Yeah, yeah. So your name, your name just kind of came up. A lot of it was supposed to be your position. When they built the stick houses out here on the north end and right here, Harris Street, where they ended. When they started up there in up town, they started building--well up there about by Jefferson School, they started past there, building stick houses. They all went to management or up here on here, Harris. And in '58, when they sold the land, all that land was bare out there. And mostly, people who got the land--maybe they could afford it. I don't know why, but a lot of them said it was politics. But it was dentists and doctors and lawyers, but it was known--Davidson and Harrison, these streets out here--they were known as Pill and Drill Hill because of the doctors and the dentists out there. So a lot of it was by your position. A lot of it's the size of the family. And a lot of it, I think, just political, who you knew. You knew somebody in housing office. You really had it made. But your name would come up on a list, and they'd give you like three places to look at. Then you'd choose one. Bauman: When did you find out exactly what Hanford's purpose was, that it was involved in production of-- Sather: Well, I was at work and—I don't remember now who it was. I was working in security at that time. I worked in security two different times early on. And then when they had the expansion and built what they called the Cold War reactors, they were going to have to process thousands of construction workers and support services out at North Richland, so I moved out there to North Richland and processed—Atkinson-Jones was the prime contractor, process all these people. So I was downtown with my first security job. The building's been torn down since. It was down in the region of the Federal Building next to the 703 Building that we also had at the Federal Building. I think it was my boss, Roy James, came in and said--and then people kind of didn't quite believe him at first there in the offices. And then, of course, I saw the newspapers--or at first, the local paper, The Villager. And it didn't really surprise people too much. I think after they heard--especially if you transferred around a bit—well, I know I was told I ask too many questions. Bauman: So you worked in security a couple different times. What other sorts of jobs did you have? Sather: Well first, when I went out there, my very first at the rec hall at Hanford, I was classified as a clerk. And then, let's see, where did I go from there? Oh, yeah. And then of course, then I was moved down to Richland for security. And then I went to 300 Area to instrument division. Then I went out to the hog and dog farm. When Battelle came and took over the Hanford laboratories--and I was in the laboratory building, I wasn't in the reactor building. That was F Reactor. They put up a big welcome sign there by the gate to F Area, and it said, welcome Baa-ttelle because they had so many sheep out there. They were testing. Well, then I asked for a transfer out of that because I started getting nauseated. And you know I was up there where they opened these—just like the steam would, like they just kind of boil these rats and stuff. They were trying to find out how much of that contamination would be in the bones. They had doctors, vets there, and everything like that. And I kept telling my supervisor, I don't think I can do this. And oh, he said, it's probably something else. Well, I was going out to the bus area, picking up the bus every morning, and it was in May, so I wasn't wearing a coat--because May can be pretty hot here--and I could see these other workers looking at my abdomen, and I think they thought it was morning sickness. But it wasn't to be for a long time. But anyway, I knew what he was thinking. And every area had a first aid station. Well, I'd go over to the first aid station. And I put off going out there, because you had to dress. You had booties and white coat and all that on. And I said, I get out in that fresh air and I'm fine, and I go back in—it was on the fourth floor. Well, after I left there, sometime after, I guess enough people complain that they change their ventilation system. But I know that's what it was, because I'm just kind of sensitive to scents anyway. Bauman: And so what task did you have there? Sather: Oh, well, of course they had all these precious metals, and they had gold, and they had silver, and they had alcohol. And all the supplies, everything. I even ordered dogs from the pound in Yakima. Had to be a certain size. And pigs—we had to have pigs a certain size. Just supplies. What did they call me? Buyer, yeah. But I had to keep track of all this, and they audited me on it. And because it wouldn't be past people to try to take alcohol, particularly. So all the supplies, ether, all kinds of stuff. And of course, your regular office supplies, medical supplies, all that kind of stuff. So I did that. Then I got transferred out of there. And I went out to 200 Areas to the separations building. And I was a secretary there. And then when I went out to BC Reactor, N Reactor, and research and development, all those places, I was executive secretary. I went to night school, CBC. And then I was an administrative assistant, and then I retired. I was a specialist, education training and development. Wrote training manuals and conducted training. Made overhead displays and stuff like that. So I was just kind of a Jack—Jill of all trades. Bauman: Yes. You had a number of different positions, and yeah. Sather: Oh, yeah. Well, they just asked me if I could do it, and when I said yes, and then I'd run home and call anybody I knew and say, how do you do this? Brush up on it and-- Bauman: Of the different positions you had, did you have one that you enjoyed the most, that you really enjoyed, or maybe one that was sort of most difficult that are challenging? Sather: Well, I forgot the two in between. I was in employee relations, and they wanted somebody to go to labor relations who was not connected with any union member. This was during the strike. I believe it was '63. It was a three-month strike of all the craftspeople. Those were trying times. And of course, nowadays with all the technology, it's hard to believe how they operated back then. But the union would get a proposal, type it up, take it to the employee relations people, and they'd study it, and send back an answer, and back and forth, and back and forth. So I really for the first time in a long time was working overtime, because they would be meeting long into the night sometimes. And I guess I was one of the few women who wasn't connected. I know all my friends, most of them were married to craftspeople, and my husband was a manager of maintenance at that time. So anyway, I did that until end of that—that was a temporary assignment. But then that's I guess how I got into the education training and development, because that was part of employee relations. So I was pretty flexible. And also in my studies, I learned that when you work long time a place, they're not going to get--they said three years. They're not going to get much more out of you, and you're not going to get much more out of them. In other words, you're going to get complacent. You're not going to grow that much. And along as far as any place was at PUREX. That was the newest separations plant. I was there six years. And I left there. The boss got mad at me, because he was on vacation when I took the job out at the BC Reactor. But they had a little thing going on. When jobs would come up, they didn't want you to move. They'd never tell you about it. There was no posting. Now posting is required, and we finally got posting to be required. Well, the man who took his place, when he was on vacation, he came back from a staff meeting. And when he came back from a staff meeting, he had me type up his meeting minutes for him so he could turn them over to my boss when he came back after two weeks. Well, I said, I'd like to interview for this job. It was a one rate hire because—that was another thing; your job was tied in with your manager's rate. You couldn't advance if you stayed with the same person unless he advanced. And there was a time or two when my boss advanced and I advanced with him, but normally, you're just stuck. It doesn't have anything to do with your job description or anything. Now, for the exempt people, it was different. They had a bunch of requirements, and it was all rated, and so many points signed, this and that and the other, and you'd be at level 12. Almost like the federal ratings. You'd be at level 12, or 15, or whatever. But the people working for them, the non-exempt people working for them, no. So anyway, I went out there and interviewed, and he said, well, you've got the job. And I said, well don't you have other people interviewing? He said yes, but he said I'm giving you the job. And I said, well. Then he said, I'm going to take you down the hall and introduce you to the rest of my staff. I said--of course I had been training managers for a long time--I said, you can't do that. You're going to have to go ahead and either interview or not interview or something. You can't just all of a sudden drop this on people. Oh, he said, thank you. He's the boss I had to change a lot of his letters. He was Scotch, and he had this temper, and he'd fire off letters and everything, and I'd put them in the bottom drawer. Sometimes I wouldn't even transcribe them. They'd lay there for a while. Sometimes he'd come in and say, what about that letter to that dude over in such and such an area? I said, oh, I've been so busy. I just haven't got around to it yet. Oh, he said, thank you, thank you. Because usually, he'd fire it off to somebody that he shouldn't have, somebody at a higher level. He was so funny. But anyway, I got that job. And then after that, after the civil rights legislation and all this equality and all this business, these federal jobs had to put quarterly reports into some committee in Washington, DC about what they were doing to even the playing field. And here they were saying they were posting jobs and they were doing this and that and the other. And just imagine these people typing up these reports and sending them in and everything, knowing a lot of it was a big lie. So finally, they revolted. And they were so scared they were going to join the union that they would do most anything to keep the white collar people out of the union. So finally, they changed it and started posting the jobs. But before that, it was just quite a bit about who you knew, or who you happened to run into, or maybe just by the grapevine to find an opening. So they had to quit doing that. But I thought, here these people, a lot of them have Master's and PhDs. How stupid can they be? Don't they think we read what we type up? [LAUGHTER] It was so funny. It was so funny. There was enough levity from time to time to make it interesting. There were practical jokes and things like that that went on. Bauman: Earlier, you talked about the emphasis on security. You worked on security and secrecy and you talked about the FBI having a presence. Were you all aware of that? I mean, it was a real focus, and-- Sather: We got reminded all the time. And all the war plants in the room my friend there I'm talking about in California who worked a long time for Hughes Aircraft, they had big signs up and everything about the enemy’s listening and all that kind of stuff, and pictures, and little cartoons. And yeah, you were just reminded of it in a subtle fashion all the time. But now, just like when I married, I looked up one day and there were two FBI men there standing at my desk. I think I was coming back from the lunchroom and they were waiting for me. And they start questioning me, and I said, well I never planned to change my name. Of course, that was unheard of. Back then--I mean, it's common now. But they said, well, you know there's a law. You're going to have to change it. Well, I'd already researched it. Not that I'm smarter than the FBI, but I think you should get your facts before you expose yourself. And there never was a law. It was like something borrowed, something blue. It was tradition. So I said show me the law. So then they came back again a little bit later, and said, you're going to have to change your name. I don't know what they got all excited about because my husband worked here and had clearance and everything. And I said, well, it's not the law. And they said, no, but it's our policy and it's job requirement. I said, well, when I hired in, I didn't see any such requirement on my papers. They said, well, it's there now. [LAUGHTER] So I let it go for a while, and my husband said, oh, don't hassle it. Don't worry about it. He said, I know your name's as good as my name. He said, don't hassle it. So I guess he thought he might get fired. So anyway, I changed my name, changed my badge and all. I had to fill out umpteen papers again, the personnel security questionnaire. Everybody had to fill out seven copies. You remember--you wouldn't know of trying to make seven copies on a manual typewriter, carbon paper. You had to start wearing dresses that were either navy blue or black because you'd get this carbon all over you. It was something else. So that's my closest encounter with the FBI. Bauman: You also earlier talked about how during the war, there--bare bones. There really wasn't any entertainment, and the town wasn't necessarily especially welcoming. Did that change after the war? Did-- Sather: Yes, I think they knew what side their bread was buttered on, so to speak. They knew that in the long run, it was good for the communities. Yeah, I think so, because I know we mixed a lot more with it. And of course, they had their stores that you had to trade at. It just wasn't that many places to shop, and you couldn't just jump in the car and go to Spokane or Seattle because where were you going to get your gas stamps? When we were in the trailer, we ran the stove that took white gas. And my husband had a '39 Ford Coupe V8. So we're eating at the mess hall, I mean, we weren't really cooking. So we were putting the white gas allotment into this Ford, and it just about hopped up. Yeah. But we never got enough to go any great distance. Bauman: Where did you go shopping locally? Sather: Well, we could get the bus and go to Pasco. There was a lot of nice stores in Pasco at that time. They were like men's stores—weren't any department stores—men's stores, and lady's stores, and children's stories, like every little small town has. And same way with the Kennewick. Well, we went to Yakima. And actually, we didn't shop like you would imagine in your time because where you going to put it? Because we're more or less transient for quite a while. And also, they just weren't things available. Maybe they weren't rationed, but they just weren't available because the federal projects and the military had the priority. I was bumped from a train between LA and Fresno, and my brother from the first Marines came back from the Pacific. My sister—I was visiting in LA at the time, and I went to my sister’s at Fresno. And we got bumped. We were going to 'Frisco, and he was coming in at 'Frisco. Well, actually, he came into San Diego where the marine base was at Camp Pendleton. But then he got a ride some buddy up to San Francisco. And when he was overseas, he was on a Browning Automatic Rifle, BAR, and it's a two man thing. And he had promised his buddies that he, if anybody was lost, he would visit their next of kin. And he had a list of 22 names in the four plus years that he was in the first Marines that he lost that could've been him. And two of them were in San Francisco, and so that's why he ended up in San Francisco. So we picked him up, come to my place, and stayed about a month. And then he went all around the country, visited these next of kin that he'd promised. Bauman: So overall, how would you describe your years working at Hanford? Sather: Oh, I think it was a good thing. I think it was good for us. I learned a lot, did a lot of different type of jobs. And the climate was much better than Des Moines, Iowa, I'll tell ya. And the companies, overall, have been good to us. We were with DuPont first and General Electric and then United Nuclear. It's been very broadening, I'll say that. We met people from all over, just all over. And allowed us to raise our family and have a nice home, and a good retirement, and I would do it over again. Not at this age, but at 21, it was easy. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Is there anything else that stands out in your mind from your time working at Hanford, or anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about it? Sather: Well, it wasn't all as stringent as it sounds. We just kind of laughed about a lot of it. Of course, we really aren't allowed to criticize much, because it just wasn't nice to do that with the war on. I had four brothers in the service. And my dad had been in the Navy in World War I. And you just kind of, well—after Pearl Harbor, the people supported the government very, very well. Before that, when England was in the midst of it and it was back and forth about whether United States would get into it, and it was—really there was no question about it after Pearl Harbor. And so most people felt we were attacked, and they felt you had to do what you had to do. I've never supported a war since then, I guess because we weren't attacked. But I feel now, now that we've been attacked again with the 9/11—I think which took as many people as Pearl Harbor. I think Pearl Harbor was about 2,500 or something like that. That other one plane went into the Pentagon, and the Pennsylvania field I think was about 3,000. Yeah. Overall, I know there was critics, primarily over on the west side. And I know they visited over here, and they have no idea that we have an operating nuclear reactor out here on the edge of town. And it was just like my friend in California. We had some friends in California, so anti-nuclear and everything. So I looked it up, and I found out that the time that he was talking about, that there were 19 operating in California alone! Over 100 in the United States. And that was probably 25, 30 years ago. And he was so surprised to think--he just thought there might be one that blew up somewhere. But it just wasn't needed, it wasn't really producing that much. But now you stop to think they'd shut down all those like you see outside of Phoenix in these large cities. What would we do? Where would we get the oil or the gas for alternate fuel? Because the populations have grown. The industries have grown. I realize there's a lot of critics. I know they come over here expecting to see us glow in the dark. But they don't mind hooking up to it whenever they get a chance. But of course, they shut it down. And Oregon shut the one they had down in Oregon, and they stopped building the ones that they were building on the other side at Elma. So I don't think they realize how dependent we are. But the same way there's critics about the dam, and what's cheaper than hydropower? But on the other hand, you go to California or Arizona and they're paying $0.15, $0.16 per kilowatt. We're paying 6.5 for electric heating here. So they envy us in a way, I think a lot of us envy. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for coming in today-- Sather: Well, you're welcome. Bauman: And thank you for sharing your experiences at Hanford. I really appreciate it. Sather: Yeah. You're a very good interviewer. Bauman: Thank you. All right. Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:51:58 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 192 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview N Reactor 300 Area 200 Area Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Virginia Sather Description An account of the resource An interview with Virginia Sather conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Missasion Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-10-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource " Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 200 Area 300 Area DuPont General Electric N Reactor https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fea9f9be8e167dfb935591d617ccc4c54.jpg 8c3738fec6884afa34e5950678c91640 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Ff7b408a8660a5970b818fe119251bed5.mp4 f60b636cbba2fd60f67abb2a10310008 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hendrickson, Wally Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Hendrickson_Wally Robert Bauman: If I'm not talking loud enough, let me know. Wally Hendrickson: Okay. Bauman: And if you need to stop to take a drink of water— Hendrickson: Oh! Okay. Bauman: Fine, no problem. Whatever. Hendrickson: Though Hanford wasn't involved, I once went to Vietnam to remove the highly enriched uranium fuel at a research reactor. But that was out of Idaho Falls. Bauman: Oh, okay. So it wasn't it directly connected to your work at Hanford? Sort of? [LAUGHTER] Hendrickson: Peripherally, some of the fuel came to the 300 Area and was used in the TRIGA Reactor here for work done on FFTF. Bauman: I think it would still be interesting to talk about that at some point during the interview. Are we all ready to go? Man one: Yup. Bauman: Well let's start by first of all just having you state your name. Hendrickson: I'm Wally Hendrickson. Bauman: Okay, great. And my name's Robert Bauman, and we are conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. Today's date is July 30th of 2013. So I thought we could start by first of all just telling me how, when, why you arrived at Hanford. Hendrickson: It goes way back. My mother's cousin worked here from the early '40s on. And I knew about the reservation because of family visits. But I first came to work here in 1955. I was an engineering student at University of Idaho and got a summer job here with General Electric--that was a contractor at that time--for the summer. Oh, it really suited me. I've been very interested in science and technology all my life. In high school I wrote a paper on disposal of radioactive waste. And I have four engineering degrees. I've really enjoyed technology. And I had the idea--idealistic young fellow [LAUGHTER]--that engineers could do a lot of good for the community. Bauman: And so what was your--you said you had like a summer job here when you were a college student. What sort of work did you do then? Hendrickson: Yes, it was for technical people—technical students. And it's to give the student a chance to get an early experience with a large technical organization. And, of course, the managers here would look at the students and wonder if they would want to have them when the students graduate. And I've worked here for one year in 1957 - '58, and I was a tech grad, with a few the listeners may know. At that time, a technical graduate like an engineer, or a physicist, or a mathematician would be given four three-month assignments to work in different areas at the site. And I remember—oh, later for that. I was really pleased at that opportunity. And one of the four three-month assignments I remember so well was water treatment. We treated Columbia River water for its use as cooling water in the breeder reactors—or production reactors, I think they're called—that we had here to make plutonium for weapons. And we cleaned more water than the city of Chicago. And our criterion was solid particles, not dissolved stuff, but little dust things that float around in the river and organic things. And I believe we sought to have the particles no more than 0.01 parts per million. And we had tricks that, I think the rest of the world still hasn't caught on to. [LAUGHTER] After the normal type treatment-- Is this dragging on too technical? Bauman: No this is interesting, keep going. Hendrickson: Well, most municipal water treatments were much like ours, except ours was really jazzed up. And they'd put in a chemical that would form a flock. It looks like a tiny piece of cotton floating in the water. And when it forms it readily picks up some dissolved material, but particularly particulate material. And that would settle when the water flowed through a very, very large swimming pool. And then water would go to filters. And they were really fancy filters. I wonder if the rest of the world has caught up with that technology. And we'd add Separan, which was like Lucite, a polyacrylamide, which would give a particle in water with a number of valences so it would attract particulates and enmesh them. And they would settle out or be filtered out. And I was able to work with two really great guys. One was a lawyer. [LAUGHTER] He'd minored in chemistry in law school, and graduated during the Depression, when you couldn't buy a lawyer's job, so he taught chemistry in high school. And there was a law, whose name I don't know, that enabled the government to essentially draft people with skills critical to the war effort. And he first went to a munitions plant, and then here. And I remember he set out to educate me. [LAUGHTER] He told me about the first breach of promise suit in America; that was during colonial times. Where a man died, his life agreed to marry the neighbor, and then thought that oh it's too soon. And he sued her for breach of promise, and was given property from her. That's because in those days it wasn't thought quite proper for women to have property in their name. So he actually lost something. Bauman: So what was this lawyer's name, this man's name? That you were-- Hendrickson: I can't remember now. He was big, and I think he died in the '70s. And I talked to his wife when I came back here in the '80s, and she said he remembered me and would talk about me. Bauman: So that was one of the four areas you worked during your-- Hendrickson: No, that was a full time employee. But I was a tech grad during that time and three months in water treatment. Oh, and another very interesting assignment was looking at the water of the river--or rather, looking at the contamination that mostly the cooling water for the reactors would contribute to the Columbia River. And one bit of--I guess it's a biological thing—that amazed me, phosphorus-32 would be made by fast reactor, fast neutrons, on the aluminum cooling pipes in the reactor tubes. And it would produce phosphorus-32. I think I'm mixed up here. I'm not sure what the target was, but anyway it would get into the water and algae would pick it up--hungry. They're hungry for phosphorus. And the concentration of phosphorus on a weight basis of the algae is 300,000 times what was in just the water. And my colleagues, they would say, well, what does that mean? How is it does it affect health? And they found that whitefish--if they didn't eat the algae, they ate something that had eaten the algae. And it would get into their bones. Now, when you eat whitefish, you usually don't eat the bones, but they didn't calculate—they didn’t take that into consideration. And they knew that some people fished quite a bit out of the Columbia and feed their family the fish. So they calculated what this exposed people to. And if they fished all through the year, and ate all of the fish and ate the bones, they would be getting close to limits for nonprofessional radiation workers. And I was really surprised when I heard about people saying the information regarding exposure of citizens was kept secret, because the very year I was here, '57-'58, the Public Health Service studied radioactivity in the Columbia River and wrote a report, and I had a copy of that report. Bauman: So were levels of phosphorus sort of the main finding from the work you did in terms of the possible impact on— Hendrickson: Yes, though I believe some aquatic worm at the mouth of the Columbia would pick up cobalt-60. And they were hot. Of course, people don't eat the worms. And I don't know if the fish do or not. There was so much work to study what became of the radioactive materials in the effluent, and what kind of hazard that was. And I remember—I'm sort of a chemist too. I remember reading the reports of the radiochemists about the techniques they developed and applied to analysis of radioactivity in the water—either effluent or the river itself. There are people that got to go up and down in a motorboat catching fish for some of this. [LAUGHTER] But much of the radioactive analysis had to come after quite a bit of chemical separation. A lot of things will get radioactive. And if you try to count a dry sample, it would be impossible to distinguish between those radioactive material, or nearly so. And they would use standard inorganic chemistry to separate different isotopes. And this place ran 24/7, and they liked to keep close track of the effluent, so they would build automatic systems to sample and automatically go through the chemical separations. If you've ever been in a hospital that has their own lab, you'll see big machines that are just amazing at being able to analyze for different organic chemicals in the blood. It's all automated. Nowadays, it just comes out printed on a sheet, sounds easy. But there was a time when it was very laborious. Bauman: Do you know if there were any changes made to any procedures in terms of water after the results of phosphorus and that sort of thing? Hendrickson: Well, changes--now I don't think there were many. They did they spend a lot of time finding out what was in the effluent, and what it would do to people. And my recollection is it that it was quite a ways away from any limit, any conservative limits that we operated from. I had heard, though, that the water treatment plant at Kennewick in those days filtered out radioactive particles. And if one went over to the filter bed—I suppose this is after the water's gone down—with a Geiger counter, it was quite radioactive. That was in 1957. Yeah, let's see. Oh! Yeah, this is embarrassing. My bosses said, well, some reactors are better than others in reducing phosphorus-32 material, why is that? Is it a function of the water treatment? So I was set out to set up one reactor. It had split water supply systems. So one reactor ran as normal, and the other half of the reactor ran a little dirtier. And we ran it for quite a while. Stuff builds up on the tubes, fine particles. If you see something in a pond, you might—well, certainly you'll see algae growing on it, but you might see accumulated clay particles. And then we purged the reactor. We ran in diatomaceous earth, which is nearly pure silica from little diatoms, the bodies of little diatoms. And that would scour the fuel elements. And this is done periodically to keep the amount down that we generated. And we took samples, then, during the purge, and they didn't make sense. And a couple weeks before that, I'd gotten some records from an accountant who was stationed over at the coal fired plant that generated steam. And I told him I need to see these records, and this is why. And he says, well, but there is no correlation like you suggest. And I got the records, and yeah, there was no correlation. [LAUGHTER] And my bosses had to admit that they didn't realize that. I suppose they'd gotten some idea during a short period of time that wasn't typical. Bauman: So, how long as a whole did you work at Hanford, and what other areas did you work in? Hendrickson: Well after '57, I started a doctoral program in physical chemistry at Washington State University. It was a very difficult time for me. Let's see, we had gotten a raise as teaching assistants there, up to $200 a month. And I had a bachelor's and master's in chemical engineering. So I didn't have as much chemistry as the other graduate students. It would pretty hard. And I kind of washed out, partly for financial reasons, and took a full time job at the research reactor in Pullman. Now it's called Harold Dodgen Radiation Center is the name. And he was a wonderful man--full professor of both chemistry and physics. Wonderful man, and so well trained. He was from Berkeley, as were some of the other faculty that I had. Well, I eventually got another master's in nuclear engineering and a PhD in engineering science. And then I came here for six months as a summer prof, they call them. Bauman: So what year would this have been? Hendrickson: That was in '71—July of '71. I came and unloaded my earthly possessions on a day that was 113 degrees. Oh! When I went to Pullman, I left the 13th of September, and the heat wave had not yet broken. And to that date, we had had 100 days above 90, and 30 days above 100. That was before anything like air conditioning in buses was thought of for [LAUGHTER] the people that worked here. Yeah, I would be away from home 11 and a half hours a day, be picked up by a shuttle bus that would deposit me at the big bus lot and then take a big bus out to wherever. And it was a toss-up of whether we should have the windows open or have the windows closed, because the air was so hot. Bauman: As so what were you working on then? Hendrickson: The four tech grad assignments. And I've spoken of two—water treatment, and another looking at the radiation impact on the Columbia River. And then I worked with the group that--they called them material and processes. And when something had to be done--a lot of things fell in that category—and they would finish up engineering if it were a new piece of equipment. And then see to procurement. Or they would work on a better decontamination material. When something gets into the contaminated water, the contamination will absorb onto the surface and stay there. And to get it off, you have to do some pretty strong chemistry. And [LAUGHTER] I've seen car loads of decontaminating reagents laying out in the sun, and I'd go test them. It's amazing what industry--Turco was a supplier of these decontaminating chemicals. And they would send us batches of new stuff that they'd worked up. Then we would test them here with our contaminants, and we give the results to them. But they wouldn't tell us what was in the samples they had given us. And I thought that was kind of a dirty trick. And then, I remember one fellow was working on epoxies. And I'd used epoxies at the research reactor in Pullman, so I knew something about that and thought it was interesting. Now there's a fourth one, but I can't remember what it was. Well, after I finished the doctorate, I came here for six months and then had two and a half year postdoc at the Naval Ordinance Laboratory. Then I worked at Idaho Falls at the chemical reprocessing plant and got run out of there and came to the DOE at Hanford for 20 more years—ten years with FFTF and ten years with the radioactive waste tanks. The waste coming from reprocessing fuel--reprocessing to recover the plutonium. And for a while, they were recovering the uranium, because we had huge quantities here that they wanted to use. They would put it back into service at another reactor. When I was here for six months as a summer prof--excuse me. That was really challenging, and when it was all over, I finally realized that what they had done was given me the unsolved problems of 17 years of operation. And it was daunting. One thing I worked out with caveman techniques—no computer, [LAUGHTER] nothing like that. But I had to know the chemistry used to separate CCM and strontium from the radioactive waste. And they were separated and put in a different place at high concentration. And then, those long half-lived isotopes, fission products, would not be in the humongous million-gallon tanks of waste. And they can use ion exchange resins to take out strontium. It's harder to do cesium, but they could do that, too. Bauman: What years would this have been that you were working on this stuff with the tanks and so forth? Hendrickson: Well in '71 as a summer prof, I did six months. And then, when I came back in '80--I came back to Hanford in '80, and I worked through the end of the century. The last ten years I worked on the tanks and the tank farms. Because of my technical interests, I would often get safety issues and the documentation that money is spent on in great quantities at facilities like this--environmental and safety documents. What was your question again? Bauman: Oh, my question was just about the time period that you were working on the [INAUDIBLE]. Hendrickson: Oh, time period. Yeah. It was in the '70s. And at the post-doc at the Naval Ordnance Laboratory. I worked for a man that had been extracting and measuring cesium in natural waters. That means in a lake, a river, in the coastal waters, and up, I want to say Kamchatka. There's a string of islands that go from Western Alaska down, almost to the Siberian coast. And a lot of bombs had been tested in the atmosphere, and the fission products go up. They absorb on bomb casing material and sand and whatever happens to be for it to absorb on. And then it falls into natural waters. And the government, through its various agencies, keeps a track—kept monitoring this. And my mentor at the ordnance lab had been following cesium. And the sodium, potassium--oh my goodness, what's next? I want to say--it's been a long time since I had a chemistry course. They're very difficult to remove from anything. They don't readily form insoluble products. But there are a few compounds that can be precipitated from an aqueous solution to a salt that's insoluble that will take out some of these very soluble ions. And for cesium--cesium was a third one. Below sodium is lithium. If they mix a solution of nickel chloride, nickel sulfate, with a solution of sodium or potassium ferrocyanide, a precipitate will form. It'll be nickel ferrocyanide. And it starts with a couple of these getting together, and then some more bump into them, and more and more, until you get a real crystal. Well, when this goes on, the cesium is picked up, just as if it were a sodium. No, that's not right. It gets into the crystal structure. It's a foreign body, but it is incorporated into the crystal structure. And it's really a good extractor. It sucks up cesium to a very low concentration level. Well, then they can filter that out, and the cesium, as I said before, doesn't go to the big, million-gallon tanks. And that was good. We liked to keep track of our radioisotopes. Now these waste tanks, million-gallon waste tanks, everything goes in there. It's a dog's breakfast of processed chemicals and some things that shouldn't be in there. Now, as a kid, I knew about black gunpowder—potassium nitrate and sulfur and charcoal. And I knew how it would explode. Well, our tanks are chock-full of nitrates, which give off oxygen for the burning of sulfur and charcoal. It's an explosive, and a good one. Well, there you've got this oxidizing agent in huge quantities. And you've got nickel ferrocyanide intimately mixed with this oxidizer. And the cyanide radical is a carbon and a nitrogen. And carbon gives off a lot of energy when it's oxidized with CO2 or CO. So people would naturally wonder what might happen. And people study it, and people write papers on it, and senators say, oh my god, you find out what's going to happen! So they had a $25 million program to find out what happens in this mixture of oxidizer and ferrocyanide. And they assigned it to me. I had published in the area of cesium extractants and knew something about the chemistry. [LAUGHTER] And before I got very far into it, I tried to find out what was known about it. And there are guys here they call the graybeards. It was a senior process chemist. And they had thought it over and decided it's safe if it's wet. So that was in the back of my mind. And you may know about the—what is that? Committee? Nuclear facility safety committee, I think. Really smart guys, cream of the crop that really know their sciences. And they were set to looking at the government's nuclear facilities, because there were a lot of noise--horrible things are going to happen or have happened and the government's covered it over, that sort of thing. Well, that became one of their concerns. So, I've worked in civil service all of my life. I say I've never had an honest job. When problems come up and our government says that there's a problem, and we got to fix it, then a bunch of people are gotten together as part of a bureaucracy, and they take care of it. A lot of times, after that problem's gone, they still take care of things. But a very capable--Westinghouse at this time--man, and I can't remember his last name, Jim. He's a PhD physicist. He wrote up a program to thoroughly study this issue. And it was just talk what this National Committee wanted--that kind of approach. So we did five years of really good chemistry. And at the end, well, we proved that if it's kept wet, it's safe. But more importantly, we learned that the cyanide is decomposed. It's a rather energetic substance and readily reacts with other things. So it's not a cyanide anymore. And it's soluble in water, it's in the salt cake. Well that was a fun time. And I quickly learned that, okay, what is needed to satisfy the committee is to do good science. And by doing that, we may very well find a solution. And then the contractor and I had to close these issues. I think there were four or five reports we had to write to convince people that we have conscientiously studied and assessed the hazard and then state what remnant hazard there is, and get their buy off, and then I could go do something else. So there's a lot of management or bureaucratic processes that bedevil the technical manager nowadays. Bauman: Mm-hm. During that time when you were working at the tanks, were there any problems with leaking or any of that sort of thing at that point? Hendrickson: Oh, that and another things. [LONG PAUSE] I'm kind of uncomfortable talking about some of that, because there are people screaming the sky is falling! And there are some real problems, all right. [LAUGHTER] But throwing them into public conferences is kind of difficult. But it'll be handled with bureaucratic methods. And I--[LAUGHTER] when people say all things are terrible at Hanford, I say not to worry, there are plenty of hardworking taxpayers. And I'm afraid that they take it in the neck many times. But then, what is done out here in the cleanup is just amazing. I have always been concerned about radiation on health. And, of course, the bureaucratic approach, which worked very well--the health physics people here—Parker, an amazing man. What was done in radiation protection here at Hanford was first class, and, I think, very conscientious. I've heard about the very earliest limits of radiation exposure. At the time we started fissioning here, started the reactors operating, most of the data came from radiation therapy given to people, usually for cancer, but other problems as well. And the radium dial painters--do you know what that is? Bauman: Mm-hm, yeah. Hendrickson: People would get watches and clocks with radium mixed with the phosphorus, so it would glow. It glows all time, but you can see it in the dark. And they would be painted in, and the ladies that did that had little artist paint brushes. And they'd dip it in. And if they had to make a fine line, they would put it in their lips and rotate it. And died horribly from--radium's chemistry is like calcium, it goes to the bone. And it's a bad way to go. But they started out from that level. And I think they were very rational and very conservative. Since '44, we've learned a great deal, and we've lowered the limits. Bauman: You mentioned earlier that you spent a period of time working at FFTF. Hendrickson: Yes. Bauman: I was wondering if you would talk about that a little bit at all? What sort of work you did there, and your experiences in that work? Hendrickson: Bear in mind that in World War II, there were a number of things that were very useful and high technology. And America developed them and used them, and they contributed significantly to the successful outcome from our viewpoint, anyway, of the Second World War. And, of course, radar is one, sonar. I lost my train of thought. [LAUGHTER] Just a minute. Of course, I think the power levels of our early, primitive, first-built production reactors was up in several thousand megawatts of heat released. They were pretty big reactors. And people in the know said, that's a lot of power. Can we use it to power submarines that would not have to come up except for food and water, and could be submerged for a month? Well, smart guys in the Navy and the Atomic Energy Commission made it happen. And very soon, they had prototype power reactors online making electricity, putting it into the grid. And according to the cost estimates of the time, it would be very economical to produce power that way. And a lot of utilities got into that. And big companies like Westinghouse and Combustion Engineering, Babcock and Wilcox, and GE made power reactors and sold them, and they were run in this country and largely were very successful. And so people say well, let's look at the slope of this line. And by, I think it was the year 2000, we're going to have 1,000 big power reactors operating. And that's going to eat up the world's known supply of uranium. What will we do then? And, of course, a physicist said well, you can breed plutonium, and it makes a fine fuel for power reactors. And they proved that. And FFTF was a big part of the technology developed. And because of this projection, they made decisions in the late '60s—projections of 1,000 power reactors being used in America in the year 2000. In the late '60s, the Atomic Energy Commission committed itself to developing breeder reactors and started a really smart program to get the kind of knowledge necessary to use that kind of a reactor system. And for generations, the electric power generation in America had been increasing 7% a year. And people that we never give a thought to had seen to having that power available for us. And they put reactors in. They thought reactors were good, and safe, and economical. Well, the FFTF was kind of the last of the great efforts along this line. And they were going to build a demonstration plant at—not Chalk River. That's Canada. Do you recall that—? Bauman: No. Hendrickson: Well, they were going to build a prototype. It means a big, nearly full sized reactor. And the lead time on some of the stuff, sometimes the lead time is three or four years just to get billets to run through the rolling mills of a special alloy needed. So there was a lot of planning going on and ordering components. And the Arabs don't like our politics in the Middle East. And cut off delivery of oil, the price went way up. I'd heard that the cost of oil at a seaport in Saudi Arabia cost $0.25 a barrel, because it's so easy to drill, and it's easy to get out. And you can plan ahead on things like that. But our growth rate just, phew, and growth rate of electrical demand went down. And I don't know where it stands now, but the whole world went through [LAUGHTER] a technological crisis when that happened. And we had kind of a recession in this country. And a lot of the industry did not build in anticipation of growth. And they stopped building reactors. They finished the ones that were being built. And this projection of meeting 1,000 reactors in 2000 was way off. I think we've had around 200 power reactors. I'm not sure, something like that. But we kept this program going in spite of economic changes and projected electrical demand changes. Though what we did here was wonderful science. The Japanese just shook their heads when we decided to shut down FFTF. In their country, they don't do things like that. They should have run FFTF until the wheels fell off, because we'll need that data some time. And the materials development that took place at FFTF is just amazing. I have thought of NASA as doing wonderful things with science, and big projects that cost billions. But I think what was done here in fuel and materials developments is of that quality and that nature and being a very big effort. Bauman: Let me ask you, during your working at Hanford—the different times you worked here—what you see as your biggest rewards working here and maybe your biggest challenges. Hendrickson: Well, [LAUGHTER] certainly from my standpoint, a wild technologist, I appreciated that technical experience they were great things done here. And it's easier, just off the top of the head, it's easier for me to say the benefits I got. And I got to go to work in very large, very focused management systems. And I saw quite a bit of development of the individual engineers. The contractors were good at that, at least when we had long-term missions. Well, of course, in the early days when plutonium was the product, I didn't have any qualms about that. I kind of trusted of the government to be halfway humane if it were used in war. But at some point, I realized the system was crazy. The CIA in 1972 said that--I think it was '72, in a newspaper clipping I read--that we had more bombs at that time than we would ever use in a war. And we just kept producing until the environmentalists used the environmental regulations to shut down the production facilities. The CIA was dead right about having all we needed. And bureaucracies, once they get started, are self-fulfilling. Bauman: You just mentioned the shift from production to clean up. Obviously, the mission changed. And you were here during both phases, I guess. I wonder, can you talk about how that shift impacted your work at all, or changes you saw as a result of that sort of change in mission? Hendrickson: Well, the turnaround of the mission occurred before I got here in '80. It was thought--when I got here, we were deep into clean-up. When I worked as a summer prof in '71, I talked to the old timers. And they told me this one tank level goes up and goes down--up and down on a rather regular basis. And they didn't know why. I had no idea why. And now we know very well. I think we spend around $100 million getting that knowledge. And it was touted as a great incipient disaster. We're going blow those tanks up and blow that waste all over. So it was known, and it wasn't worried about at one point. People do get complacent, I guess. But then again they sited these facilities out in this unpopulated desert. Some people from the east--when they came out here--they come to the airport and get in town, and then they have to drive 55 miles out to the facility. Most of the world doesn't think that way. So we built in great depth of protection in simply where we sited it. One thing that they did--they released huge quantities, industrial quantities of carbon tetrachloride that was used in extraction and cleanup of plutonium. And they released it to the ground. I think there were thousands of gallons. And that's not smart to do that sort of thing. We released radioactive streams to the ground that were very, very, very low in radioactivity. And I don't worry about that sort of thing. It's not going to lead to any harm—in Wally's opinion. But some things [LAUGHTER] that they found out there are really amazing. These old timers that worked around the tank farm said they would throw radioactive tools, dirty, contaminated tools down in the tanks, and they would throw radioactive machines that they didn't want any more down in the tanks. This is just hearsay. [LAUGHTER] And the tanks whose level would rise and low were studied. I think it was around $100 million. They found out that there were radiolytic gases given off, and gases given off by chemical reactions. Even after decades in the tank, still going on. Well some of the gas attaches itself to particles so it doesn't bubble to the top. And that heavy sediment at the bottom gets lighter, and lighter, and lighter, and then it rises up and goes to the surface. And the gas bubbles expand, and they break. And you've got explosive gases in the tank. Well, guys told me that some of the fellas would like a match and drop it down the tanks, and light a piece of paper and let it float down into the tanks and go, woof! That's not firsthand information. [LAUGHTER] But people sure can get worked up about things. Bauman: Security and secrecy are sort of always connected with Hanford. I wonder if you could talk about that all in terms of maybe the first time you were here in the 1950s--did you have a special clearance at all, and did security, secrecy change at all from the time you were here in the '50s--you were here later in the '80s? Hendrickson: That's a subject I have strong feelings about. I think they did a very good job. And I trust their judgment that it was necessary. Yeah, it was part and parcel of living in Richland. I was told at one time, you had to have a security clearance to live in the town of Richland. And I think there a lot of the old timers here. I believe Richland has a very low crime rate, a carryover from those times, I think. People that they wouldn't give a security clearance to lived someplace else. They didn't come here. Of course, I was young, and what's the word? Impressionable. And I saw all of the guards and had a badge and would flash it. It got so when I'd go to a grocery store, I'd take my badge out. [LAUGHTER] Nuclear weapons kill people by the hundreds of thousands, or millions for the big hydrogen bombs. And we wouldn't want the technology, or bomb material, or the bomb itself in the hands of people that we don't want to have it. And when you think of the consequences of failure in the security area, you realize why they are so thorough. Now the rules are thought out carefully by experienced people. And the rules are pretty well written out. And people are able to follow those rules. So I think we owe a lot to the safeguards and security programs that have been part of this world. Bauman: I wonder if you could talk about, overall, your thoughts on Hanford as a place to work. Hendrickson: I was surprised when I came as an undergraduate at how happy the people were with the Tri-cities. They liked it. I'd come from mountainous timber land. [LAUGHTER] Being out here in this sandbox was something different. I think people like it here. As a technical guy, I was glad I was in this environment. I think the Richland Police Department is a couple notches above the average. I think that's a carry-over from the effort made in this area by the Manhattan Project. One bad thing about Hanford is that it would have economic ups and downs, really severe ones. And a number of times in my experience here, I've seen weeds growing in cracks in the sidewalks and closed businesses. It looks like we'll have a good economy here, this handling the cleanup is going to take decades. And I think they even haven't planned too much for the very end. Bauman: Before we started recording, you were talking earlier--you mentioned something you had worked on during the Vietnam War. I know it's not directly related to Hanford, but I wondered if you might want to talk about that a little bit more. Hendrickson: Well, there was a connection with Hanford. After I left that post-doc at the Naval Ordnance Lab, I worked at Idaho Falls with the Atomic Energy Commission, within a group that looked after the fuel reprocessing plant. And we would call it the chemical plant. And after I'd been there about a year, a message came from headquarters that they wanted volunteers to go to Vietnam to take out the highly enriched uranium that fueled a TRIGA-type reactor at Da Lat in South Vietnam. And they wanted people with health physics and TRIGA-reactor experience. Now I'd worked on a TRIGA reactor for ten years, and kind of by that a lightweight health physicist. And my buddy was a GS-14 health physicist at Idaho Falls. And he had been president of the western section of the—let’s see—the Health Physics Society. So he and I talked and said, yeah, we'll volunteer. And we were the only volunteers out of about 20,000 AEC people. When I worked at the radiation center in Pullman, I chummed around with a lot of the graduate students and post-docs. I really enjoyed that. And one of them developed into a friendship. He was a Vietnamese physicist trained at the University of Saigon. And some of their degrees are taken as the same level as the Sorbonne degrees in France at that time. And he worked on a nuclear engineering master's program. And he was earmarked to return to work at the reactor that was being built. It was quite a complex--they even had their independent power--diesel electric generator. Well, he wanted to stay for a doctorate in radiochemistry and started on that, but his country demanded he come back. And he worked at the reactor. And he and I corresponded. And he told me about meeting a small pharmacienne—I guess that's the technical—the feminine form of pharmacist in French. And I'd hear about his courtship and had a baby. And then he didn't answer my letters. And when I was in the DC area at the Naval Ordnance Lab, I called the Vietnam embassy, and the man I got had been my friend's boss at the reactor. And Ti was dead—La Banh Ti. And I'd learned about his experience- - he, and his wife, and his little girl Christine had gone up to Hue, where Ti's father lived for the Chinese New Year. That's a real big thing in Asia. Well, of course, that was in the time of the Tet Offensive. And Hue was overrun, including the citadel. And the American and Vietnamese forces eventually pushed them back. Ti had been seen by some of the Viet Cong, and one fellow knew him and fingered him. And he was taken as prisoner to a park and kept there. And after the Viet Cong realized they'd better retreat, the prisoners were taken out to the edge of the city and put in a ditch and shot, which isn't as bad as it might be, because sometimes they would douse them with gasoline and light it. Well I knew about the reactor in Da Lat from my association with Ti. And we--John Horan and I--John died probably 20 years ago--he was an airman in the Second World War. We said, yeah, we'll go. And that was sent back to Washington. That was Friday. And I went with a scout group up in the hills outside of Idaho Falls. And I'd made two toboggan-like things out of old skis with the seat on it, and the boys played with that. I went hiking, and I came across a pregnant doe. And I followed the tracks. I heard the noise, and I realized eventually that it was a pregnant doe, so I broke off. But I was doing that on the weekend. And Monday I took flight for Vietnam. And I didn't have a passport. So we made arrangements for special treatment with a passport office in San Francisco. [LAUGHTER] It was a hassle. The guy that was supposed to take care of that detail had gone to a dentist and not told anyone. When Horan got back, he wrote a bad letter to that guy's boss. But we got it. We finally got it--we got a visa from the Vietnamese and flew over--that's a long flight. And we were met at the airport by the first secretary--political military. He was a career department of state man. I think he's still alive. He's in his mid-90s. Just a first class person. Well the first thing he did when he recognized us was remind us that we were volunteers. It went downhill from there. We were to go up in a small plane just to reconnoiter, see what conditions were at the reactor. And, let's see--that must have been a four-seater. There were four of us that went up. Jay Blowers was his name. What was it--Air America, run by the CIA. And I couldn't see the compass--I sat in the back. But I could tell the direction by the sun. Instead of flying from Saigon north-northeast to Da Lat, we went directly east out over the South China Sea, and then north-northeast, and then directly west. And when I'd figured that out, I said why? And they said, well, the Viet Cong has very respectable anti-aircraft capability between those two cities. And I thought, okay. But when we got there--I think it's at 5,000 plus feet, and it's a wonderful place after you've been down at sea level in the tropics. And the French used it—developed it as a vacation area. And there was a college there, and a school for noncommissioned officers. And I saw all kinds of agriculture—oh, yeah, there was an agricultural school of some kind. Well, we came to an area that was nothing but clouds. And there were mountain peaks around. And we went round, and round, and round, trying to find a hole. And we were just about to the point where we would have to leave because we only had enough gas to make it back to Saigon. And the pilot saw a hole, and he went shoo! like that and leveled. And we were going straight towards a mountain. He went shoo! like that. And there was a landing field and plopped down on the field. It was so fast, I didn't get to react. I wasn't used to that kind of flying. Well we found the reactor in very good condition. And they had a fork truck which wasn't in good condition, and we needed a fork truck to lift shipping containers. The ones we got were brought by air from Bethesda Naval Hospital in DC. And they were 55 gallon drums. And they had a pipe--an ordinary plumber's type pipe. It was kind of big, though. Must've been six inches. And there were some lead around it. And then concrete around that. And they were pretty heavy. So we needed heavy handling equipment. And they had a bridge crane. Now, a lot of research reactors are built like this one, which is that in a round building, straight walls, and then a dome. And there's a ridge up at the top that a crane—polar crane, I think they call them—goes like this. And they had some problem with it, but they said it would work. And the water was in excellent condition, though they had shut it down since '68. The head of the reactor, the manager became a close friend, and he has died. You know this was in '75, March of '75. This is interesting; Wally did something smart--two things smart. When we were in Saigon, we quickly went over to the Vietnamese atomic energy office and said we're from the government, and we're here to help you. And we’d gotten sign off by the political type that was over such things as research. And we said we want your help, we want to go up and see what's there, and what we need to get the fuel out. And how hot is the fuel, stuff like that. Of course, they didn't know, because they hadn't fooled with it for seven years. And they had shut it down. I thought whenever, in the nuclear field, they do something like that, they write a safety report. So I asked, do you have a safety report? May I see it? And in the report, typically they do the thought experiment of, well what happens if the fission products are dispersed in the air, the whole bunch. And so I saw that they had figured out the amount of cesium and strontium. Those are the long half-lived elements. They wouldn't have gone down a little bit in seven years. They had that all worked out. And I said, well, from that amount of so many curies, at this distance, you'd get this dose rate. But we'll only take out one fuel element time--piece of cake. It's no problem. But anyway, we took out a fuel element, because we wanted to survey it. And Horan had bought our emergency response box. We had dosimeters and radiation instruments--some of them we got from Berkeley. I don't know how that was arranged. And we would take the fuel out with a long hose that had a gripper at the end. The TRIGA had a little post sticking up that was sort of arrow shaped, and a neck. And metal--a mechanical thing on this garden hose went on that post and clamped onto the neck. And we'd pull it to the surface. And that particular hose system had a history of dropping the fuel elements. So we immediately grabbed the fuel element in the bare hand and disconnected it. And a guy over there, about eight feet, would read it with a G-M tube. That's what this case was. Well the guy with serving instrument was down on the steps a ways. And he walked up, which also brings him closer. And we could hear the count rate--zeeeeee. And it stops. And people experienced with high sources and G-M tubes know [LAUGHTER] that it's saturated, and it's really hot, and you better get away. And Horan says oh, we got a divide by ten thing. We'll put that on it. Well, the thing that goes bad in counting the radioactivity is in the Geiger tube itself. So the divide by ten was useless. And we got--I said, well, let's just stand back farther. [LAUGHTER] And we got a good reading, a valid reading. That tickled me, that the Idaho health physicist hadn't picked up on the instrumentation they had for emergencies. Well let's see, I guess this might have been the second trip up there. But anyway, there was a little fence around the grounds and a guard's house at the entrance, and a lean-to made of bamboo on the side. And a family was living under that lean-to. And they had several children--one was really small. And I talked to them, and they didn't know English, but I talked to them anyway. And the little girl had--I don't know if they call it harelip, but anyway her two front teeth were growing on jawbone that was in front of her lip. And wars are expensive, and a lot of things are neglected because of that. I really hate to see war anyplace. Problems like that can be dealt with so easily. But I had some time, and I offered to give the children a tour through the reactor. I guess the guard spoke enough English. So I took them, and pointed to the crane and pointed to this great—oh dear, the reactor was in a silo-like concrete shield with water. And then we climbed a step up to the top. But anyway, I pointed to different things, and then I took them into the chem labs, and there was a model of the reactor. And I said--oh, see that reactor out here? Here's a model. And the oldest girl, you could just see her face light up. She understood, and she explained to the kids what it was. Well, then we went back to Saigon. And communicated with headquarters—Atomic Energy Commission headquarters. I found out that this was handled at a very high level. The White House decided who was going to pay for the recovery, and an Air Force general was given responsibility for transportation. And an AEC fellow course handled the AEC part. And I've met him. Bauman: And the connection to Hanford was-- Hendrickson: Well. Oh! Oh yeah--do you have time? I can tell more about actually moving the fuel. Bauman: Just a little more, yeah. Hendrickson: Well, we got the fuel out. The C-130 was overloaded, and we didn't know it. And the airport runway was on top of a hill, and we had to fight off people that wanted to take refuge in our plane and be taken out to the south. And the plane was backed up. And the engine revved up as high as it'll go with the brakes on, and then the brakes are released. And it starts out about like a baby buggy, just rumbling along and the engines are straining. And it did pick up speed, but at this time I could see out the pilot's window, and we didn't so much take off as we ran out of runway and there were farmhouses outside the wings. And we got back. And then these heavy casks were loaded on a different kind of airplane--C-141, and taken to Johnson Island, and then to the States. And some of the elements came here to Hanford and were used in the FFTF complex for experimental work. And I met the director of that reactor. He is a good man. Bauman: Now, that's quite a story. Are there any—beginning to wrap up here--anything I haven't asked you about or anything you think is important to talk that we haven't talked about yet? Hendrickson: Anything else I think might be important? Bauman: Yeah, that I haven't asked you about or that we haven't talked about yet that you'd like to say sort of briefly here at the end? Hendrickson: Oh, there are a number of things--I probably could think a little bit. Maybe I'll make some notes and contact you. Bauman: And we could always schedule another, Hendrickson: If it seems worthy, I'll contact you. Bauman: Okay. I want to thank you a lot for coming in today. I really appreciate you sharing your memories and your experiences. Hendrickson: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: All right. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:32:02 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 250 kbps Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1955-1957; 1980-2000 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-1957; 1980-2000 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. La Banh Ti Horan, John Blowers, Jay Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Hendrickson Description An account of the resource An interview with Wally Hendrickson conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Nuclear weapons plants--Waste disposal--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site. Nuclear instruments & methods Nuclear waste disposal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-7-30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-8: Metadata v1 created – [RG] CIA General Electric Hanford (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Secrecy https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fdb9a8ea9be9f00d6ba6f3188d6d9d9f4.png 2fa7b460111a708fe614a230c0e2c9cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wally Webster Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: We ready? Okay. My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Wally Webster on July 20, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Wally about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Wally Webster: Wallace Webster. I go by Wally. That’s W-E-B-S-T-E-R, is the spelling of my last name. Franklin: And what about the first name? Webster: The first name is W-A-L-L-A-C-E. Franklin: Great. Thanks, Wally. Webster: Okay. Franklin: So, tell me how—well, let’s talk about, let’s start by talking about your life before Hanford. When and where were you born, and where did you live before coming to the Tri-Cities? Webster: Okay. I was born in a small town east of Mobile, Alabama, called Theodore. And if you go down there, they say The-do. But I graduated from high school. I immediately left Alabama and made a very quick stop in Oakland, California, and then headed for Pasco, Washington. Franklin: And what— Webster: So I’ve been here since 1962. Franklin: 1962. And what year were you born? Webster: I was born in 1944. Franklin: Okay. And what—so you said you had graduated—went to school in Theodore, Alabama. I wonder if you could talk about your education there, back in Alabama and kind of the prevailing situation there. Webster: Okay. That’s a good point, because it lends to my activities in Pasco. I went to school in a segregated school system. I graduated from high school. It was still segregated at that time. So, when I graduated from high school, I knew then that there was a better place that I could live. I didn’t know where that was, so I went to Oakland, California for a short period of time to live with my brother. Then I get an opportunity from my uncle to move to Pasco. In fact, he asked me to help him drive to Pasco. When I helped him drive to Pasco, I didn’t go back to Oakland. So that’s how I got here. And again, I was very, very familiar with segregation whether it was de facto or institutionalized. When I got to Pasco, I was surprised at the de facto segregation that I found in Pasco, which was very, very similar to what I experienced in Alabama. Franklin: Really? Wallace: Yes. Franklin: More similar to Alabama than in Oakland? Wallace: Yes. I didn’t stay in Oakland very long, so I can’t speak a lot to Oakland. But when I got to Pasco, all the black people, or 90% of the black people living in east Pasco. The schools that—the elementary school was Whittier School. It was completely black, with the exception of maybe a few white students that came from the north side of Pasco. That didn’t seem right. I thought I was leaving that behind me when I took the Greyhound bus and left Alabama. Matter of fact, it was somewhat disturbing after a while and learning the city, that I became very active—and some people would say an activist—but I became very active in helping, or doing something about breaking down that system. Franklin: Yeah. What did your parents do in Alabama? Webster: My mom was a stay-home mom. My dad was a laborer and a minister. He worked at an air force base. It’s closed now. It’s called Brookley Field Air Force Base in Mobile, Alabama, which was about ten or twelve miles east of Theodore. Franklin: What was your father—what were your parents’ levels of education? Webster: My dad was quite literate but he only went to the eighth grade, and my mom was probably the sixth or seventh grade. They had five kids and four of the five got advanced degrees from universities. And the older one, he left home and became a construction laborer and became a journeyman painter and drywaller. Of the five of us, as I said earlier, we all got advanced college degrees and they insisted on us getting an education and doing better in life than what they were doing. Franklin: Was Theodore—so Theodore was a segregated town as well? Webster: Yes. And it was segregated from the standpoint of all black people lived in one section of Theodore and all the whites lived in another section. Sometime that may have been across the road, but there was a dividing point. When I was going to school, a school bus would pick up the white students that lived down the road from me, but we all had to walk to school. So I saw that kind of discrimination all of my life. The one thing that I will point out is you become acclimated to that condition after you’ve lived in it a long time, and it became another way of life—or a way of life. You don’t really understand it until you go someplace else and see the difference. Maybe the first eye-opener I had was the very short time I lived in Oakland. It was more integrated than where I lived in Theodore. Then when I came to Pasco, I was more shocked, because I could see identically to what I saw and experienced and lived in, in Alabama. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned your uncle asked you to help drive a truck up here. Did you have family in the area? Webster: In this area? Franklin: Yeah. Webster: He was my only. Franklin: And how did he get here? Webster: As I understand it, and I think I’m probably 90% accurate, when he got out of the military, out of the Army, he joined the labor movement. At that time, the labor movement, or migration, was from the Oakland military installations down there up to Hanford, where they were constructing all kinds of buildings and programs here. And then they migrated on up to Anchorage, Alaska and worked there during the summer months and then they came back to this area. He decided that he no longer wanted to migrate with the construction industry. He worked construction here for a while. But he built a building and in it he housed three businesses. One was a restaurant, the other one was a pool hall, and the other one was a beer tavern. Franklin: Was this in east Pasco? Webster: In east Pasco. Franklin: Okay. Do you remember the names of these places? Webster: Yes, it was Jack’s Grill and Pit, was the name of it. Franklin: And that was, the three businesses were Jack’s Grill and Pit? Webster: Yeah, and they were all under that title. And they had separate walls and separate buildings. When he came down to Oakland, it was about October, I think, and he came down to the World Series, as a matter of fact. I think the Giants and the Dodgers were playing at that time. And then I came back up here with him. Franklin: Wow. What were your first impressions when you arrived in Pasco? Webster: Well, I liked the city, I liked where I lived. Like I said earlier, once I got here, I never did go back to Oakland. So I liked it a whole lot better than I did Oakland. But as I got to learn the city, I became more aware that it was not much different from where I came. And as I studied it more, and got to know more people, those individuals came from the same states and cities that I was familiar with: Alabama, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana. They had come here, also, with the labor migration. I couldn’t understand for a long time why all of the black folks was concentrated east of Pasco, which was on the other side of the railroad tracks. So as I got to talk to more people and got to learn about them, I quickly learned that many of them were very pleased to have a job and to work and make a living for their families, and accepted the housing that was available. That housing was in east Pasco. Franklin: Right. And they kind of accepted—for a time, accepted the de facto segregation. Webster: Oh, absolutely, yes, yes. And I’ll tell you, the thing that I liked about east Pasco, a great deal, which was similar to where I lived in Theodore, we all knew each other and knew each other very well. I don’t know if there was a person in Pasco at that time that I didn’t know them and they didn’t know me, after I’d been there for six or eight months or so. So that’s how I got to know who they are, where they came from, who their families were. And then it became obvious that something was wrong. And a little bit more about myself, when I first got to Pasco and enrolled at Columbia Basin College, on the way up, my uncle was talking to me about my goals and opportunities and what I wanted to do in life. We had thirteen, fourteen hours together to do that. And I said I wanted to go to college, because that’s something my dad and mom had popped into our head. But I left home before I enrolled in college. So he took me to Columbia Basin College in January, that was the beginning of the quarter. After meeting with counselors and talking to them, I was told that I was not college material. That my education was not up to par, and they didn’t think I could make it through college. That was very disappointing to me. I met a gentleman that I admire to this day. He heard my story. He was an administrator or coach or something at Columbia Basin. He talked to me about majoring or taking accounting. He explained it this way: he said, it can take you three hours to work a problem; it could take the next person 30 minutes. But if you come up with the same answer, what difference does it make? As long as you have the fortitude to stick with it and get it done. You also can check it to make sure it’s accurate. That’s what steered me into accounting, finance. And I spent 30-some years in banking and finance. Franklin: Do you remember his name? Webster: His name was Sig Hansen. Franklin: Sig? Webster: Yeah, S-I-G. I never will forget his name the rest of my life. He was probably one of the most inspirational individuals, from an education or career that I’ve met in my life. Franklin: And did you graduate from CBC? Webster: Twice. [LAUGHTER] They didn’t have a WSU campus out here at that time. Franklin: Sure. What did you get degrees in? Webster: Well, one was applied science and the other was business, with a business emphasis, yeah. Franklin: Oh, that’s great. What was the first place you stayed in after you arrived here? Webster: It’s no longer there, but I stayed at 725 South Hugo Street in east Pasco. It was A Street going towards Sacagawea Park. That’s where my uncle, not only had he built a business with three entities in it, he also had built an apartment building on the hill up there that had three or four apartments in it. The one apartment, he built especially for himself to live in. So I lived with him. Franklin: Your uncle sounds like quite the entrepreneur. Webster: Yes, no question about that. He left here after Urban Renewal purchased his property, and went to California. He went to Oakland because we had a lot of relatives in Oakland. He went there and opened a couple of businesses. So, yes, he was definitely an entrepreneur. Franklin: So it was basically an apartment. Webster: Yes, it was an apartment. Franklin: An apartment in a building that he owned. Webster: Yes, yes. It was an apartment building with four units in it, and he lived in the major unit in that building. Franklin: Gotcha, gotcha. What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Webster: Well, after I started Columbia Basin College, I never will forget for the rest of my life—this. I was in a business class, a business machine class. I had never operated a full-key add machine at that time. So I’m struggling. And this young lady sitting behind me came over to help me put my hands on the right home keys on this machine. She just came over, and she leaned over, and her hair fell kind of on my shoulder. A white female. And I can remember—I became so petrified that I could not move. My whole body froze. Because I was conditioned in Alabama that not only didn’t you look at a white woman, especially, but to have her hair hanging over your shoulder, across, is tantamount to being lynched. That was an absolute no-no. And I never will forget. It frightened her, it frightened me. We remained friends for a long time after that, but that was one of the things that helped me understand that I had been preconditioned to something that I had to get over. The second thing was—I mentioned Whittier School. I went to a segregated school, and I knew you can get comfortable. And I knew that when I left there and I went over to CBC, they told me that I was not up to par with my education. Something said to me that these kids are probably not up to par, either. So there has to be a reason why all black kids are going to school here and all white kids are going to school someplace else. Well, I know that a few of the parents were comfortable sending their kids to Whittier because it was close to home, they were afraid that if—because I was advocating close the school down, as opposed to bussing white kids in. They felt that it would drop the property value, also. Not only convenient as having their kids going down the street, but property values. But I was able to prevail in the thought and we pressed upon the school board, we marched, we demonstrated with enough parents, and they made the decision to close Whittier School. Later they tore the building down. But I just did not feel that they could get the right education. And then in this process, I learned that a lot of people were not registered to vote. This is a story—I guess the statute of limitations is expired now. But I was only, at that time, I was 17 or 18. But I was not old enough to vote. The voting age at that time was still 21. Went to a couple of the—well, the two major parties, the democrats and republican parties to get a voter registration going. The democrats in this case said I was too young to register people to vote. I learned from that experience. I went to the republicans and they agreed that I could register people to vote, but I could not sign the application as the registrar. So I took it upon myself at that point to conduct a voter registration drive, and we registered more people—I would basically hang out where my uncle’s business was and went in the community some organizations. I don’t recall this day how many people we registered, but it was definitely in the hundreds. That was one way of getting people engaged in changing the environment in which we lived. In Alabama, you could vote, but you had to play a poll tax. You had to pass an exam, then pay a poll tax to vote. And here all you had to do was go down and fill out the application and then turn it in. Franklin: I think that the poll tax and the exam is something that’s so foreign to a lot of people these days, especially younger generation. Could you talk about in a little more detail about what that was, and how that stopped black people from voting? Webster: Yes. Think of it in the context of your earnings, number one. Even if you were educated enough, or learned enough about the exam through some basic classes to pass it, they impose this tax. This tax was compounded. So they’ll look at your age, for an example, and say, oh, you’re 50 years old, so we’re going to charge you a dollar a year since birth. Now your tax is $50, for an example. So before you could get your voter registration approved, you had to pay the $50. And it increased every year thereafter. Well, if you’re only making enough to put bread on the table and pay the rent, that wasn’t your number one priority. So it discouraged—and it was intended to discourage. Each county kind of set their own tax levels. Some may be $.50; some may be $2 a year. But they raised it to a level that it discouraged African Americans from voting. Franklin: And there was no poll tax on whites. Webster: There were—now, I’m going to assume there were poll tax on whites. I don’t know the answer to that, to tell you the truth. Franklin: Okay. And what about the exam? Was it—what kinds of, from your knowledge, what kinds of questions and things were asked of people? Webster: Yeah. As I recall from listening to my father and others that took the exam, it was more white history. You learned about General E. Lee, you learned about the Civil War and why it was fought, but not that it was a war that was fought to end slavery; it was a war that was fought to preserve the economy of the South. So it was more, if I may use the term, white history, than who were governors at this point in time, the legislators, the senators, as opposed to African American history. Franklin: Mm-hm. It must’ve been—I can’t imagine the feeling of being black and having to answer questions about why the Civil War was fought in order to vote. Webster: Yeah, yeah. And I’ll tell you another thing that—you just triggered a thought. We would always get our books and materials and school buses and everything else, they were kind of the hand-me-downs. They came from the whites. Those books that had anything in it about black history, those pages were torn out before we got the books. I can remember, some people in the community would go and order books directly from the publisher. But we didn’t take those books to school; we took the books that had the N-word written all through it and everything else. Drawings of lynchings on front pages of the book, on the blank sheets of it. Those are the books that we learned from. So after a while, you just kind of—it just kind of rolls off. Franklin: Right, it becomes normalized. Webster: Yes. Exactly, exactly. Franklin: Yeah, that kind of terror. Wow. You’d mentioned earlier that when you came here and you started to talk to people, there were people from Texas and Louisiana and Oklahoma. Were most of the people—African Americans you met in east Pasco—were they all recent migrants from the South? Webster: There had been somewhat recent, but generations came with parents. Because, mind you, I came in 1962. A lot of those people had worked at Hanford for 40 years at that time, or longer. But if you stop and think about it, if you have a family, and you have migrated to Pasco, and you’re working every day, and you’re earning two or three times more than you were earning when you were in Louisiana or Texas, and you were able to bring your family, you felt pretty good about it. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: And you got pretty comfortable. And you did not necessarily think about upsetting the apricots, so to speak. So they became conditioned. It was nothing—you didn’t take a second thought about having to go shop at Grigg’s Department Store to get what you want, and you go underneath a railroad track and up to go to Grigg’s. You just did it. And you earned enough money to be able to go to the department store. Franklin: And you didn’t have to go in a separate entrance. Webster: That’s exactly right. Franklin: But if you went to Kennewick, you could go during the day, but you couldn’t go at night. Webster: Yes, yes. Yeah, Kennewick was branded at that time by one of the regional NAACP/civil rights leaders as the Birmingham of the Northwest. Locally it was referred to as the sundown town. You could be there during the day, but by sundown you had to be out. It was basically, for all practical purposes, it was segregated. Just like Birmingham. It didn’t even have an east Pasco. It was white almost 100% all over. Franklin: Right, because covenants had kept— Webster: Yes, yes. Franklin: Had kept African Americans from purchasing a home. Webster: Until the Fair Housing Act was passed, they had these covenants of first right of refusal. So if I was selling to—if one of the owners decides to sell to a black person, someone could step in and say I’m exercising my right of first refusal and buy the property. But if they were selling it to a white person, they would not exercise that right. So they used that as a means to keep it segregated. Franklin: Yeah, it wasn’t until the mid- to late-‘60s, right, where the first African Americans— Webster: Yeah, right. Franklin: The Slaughter family. Webster: The Slaughter family, yeah. And that was done a little bit as a challenge to the covenants, to see if the Fair Housing Act would be enforced. So it was kind of a demonstration to that, a challenge to that. Franklin: Did you meet any Manhattan Project—people who had worked on the Manhattan Project that had come up for construction and had stayed in Pasco? Webster: I met a number of them that have passed on now, of course. Franklin: Of course. Webster: And had an opportunity to interact and talk with and, matter of fact, two or three of the individuals who were my—I consider my strongest supporters, had come up through the Manhattan act. Franklin: Who were they? Webster: One name, E.M. Magee. He was head of the NAACP. Another one was Luzell Johnson. He was a very, very quiet, unassuming man, but very powerful. When he spoke, people listened. Franklin: He helped found Morning Star. Webster: Yes, yes, exactly right. Franklin: Right? In his home with his wife. Webster: Very wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. Another one, his name was Ray Henry. When I call these names, a lot of times, these may not be the formal names on their birth certificates, but these are the names we got to know them by very affectionately. But I’m pretty sure his name was Ray Henry. E.M. Magee, Luzell Johnson, I’m pretty sure those are their correct names. Those three individuals were very, very helpful in keeping me grounded as a youngster. Franklin: What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Webster: Well, I knew that there was a shortage of labor, and I knew that they went to the states where there were high populations of African Americans and brought that labor to Hanford. Subsequently, I learned from some of the declassification of information back relating to that time, that there was a systematic strategy to get the work done, but not to bring social justice along with it. What do I mean by that? When they brought African Americans here, they maintained the segregation. They maintained the separate chow halls and eating facilities and living facilities. They would post signs, this particular chow hall is for Negroes and this for whites. And they basically kept whites as supervisors. So they brought the segregation system, picked it up and moved it here in tact. Because, as I understand it, they wanted to build buildings as opposed to do social engineering. So that’s another reason why blacks were in east Pasco, is that’s where they each agreed that they could go and live, as opposed to Kennewick, and Richland, which was a government town. There were a few blacks in Richland, but very, very few that met the criteria for living in Richland. Franklin: Right, and that criteria was a job with AEC— Webster: At a certain level. Franklin: --at a certain level, which would’ve been a challenge to say the least, for most African Americans to have that education and to prevail on the standard hiring practices of the 1940s and 1950s. Webster: That’s exactly right. There was not the predominate number of people coming in from the labor supply that they were looking to build the plants out there. Franklin: But there were several black families in Richland, is that right? Webster: Yeah. Yeah. Franklin: Could you name them? Webster: You know, I don’t know all of their names. I think the Wallaces were one. I don’t know names, but I do know there were several black families. I did not know them personally, to be honest with you. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. Let’s see here. We kind of—oh, I wanted to—from your perspective, thinking about the African Americans that came during World War II to help build Hanford and who stayed, what were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Webster: Well, number one is, this does not necessarily relate to civil rights, but I saw a very, very strong sense of family, a very strong sense of community. Even though by my perception, it was a segregated community. But there was a very strong sense of community. There were a lot of African Americans who worked at Hanford after it was built, and they were part of the downwinders. I don’t know if you got into that a whole lot, but they were part of the folks who were contaminated and were actually compensated for their illnesses from working out there. Franklin: Was that because of the location of east Pasco, or were they—was it due to exposure on the job? Webster: Both the job and where they lived. The one other thing that I really appreciated, even though they went to an elementary school that was segregated—and it’s part of this family values—there were siblings who their kids were encouraged to go to the high school—which, Pasco then only had one high school. And was encouraged to go on to college. There were Pasco-ites that went on to the NFL and there’s some wonderful things as a result of the experience that they got here at Hanford. So, I don’t mean to say that the quality of life was so bad that they couldn’t overcome the challenges. But I saw challenges in my generation that I thought was not necessary. And I thought we had overcome in other parts of the world. Franklin: Did you feel that—you’d mentioned how Pasco kind of surprised you that Pasco was so much like Alabama. Did you think, leaving Alabama, that you were leaving that kind of segregation behind? Webster: Oh, no question. When I left Alabama, I was so determined to leave—and I was very young and I can think back now how my parents must’ve felt with me saying I’m leaving home. I had a fried chicken in a cardboard box, my mom cooked a pound cake, and I bought a loaf of bread. That was my meal. And then when I bought my ticket at the Greyhound bus station from Mobile, Alabama to Oakland, California, I had $29 left. With those kinds of resources, going from one part of the world that you’d never been in before, going to another part of the world you’ve never been before, it took some determination and something to say you have the motivation to leave here. I guess from TV and other places, I decided to pack up and leave. Then when I got here, and again I found the same thing that I was experiencing in Alabama, I thought, my goodness, why did I make the sacrifice? But I could see, just because I was able to go over to Columbia Basin College, and the fact that I could walk n the front door and go in the registrar’s office—even though the counselor told me I would never ever matriculate in college. That was an incentive. And I’ll tell you something else, when I got my master’s degree, I went over and I took a photocopy of it and I left it in his office. He wasn’t there, so I just left it in his office. But the thing that I appreciate most is arriving in this town of Pasco, the east side, and getting the level of support that I had as a newcomer. But I think they saw me as a teenager, as a youngster, who wanted to do something. And all the folks just said, let’s get behind him and do something, because he’s trying to do something positive. Yeah. Franklin: That’s great. Kind of still a segregated environment, but one that maybe had more opportunity than the South for you, and for others? Webster: Yeah, but you know, in the South, there’s one thing, at least when I was growing up: you had an opportunity to go to college, but you went to, again, a segregated college. Franklin: To an HBC? Webster: To an HBC. You had an opportunity in many times to be a professional, whether it was a school teacher or an administrator. You didn’t have the options of being a medical doctor unless you went to another school in another state. Like in Alabama, my brother wanted to go to medical school and back in the days, they would pay you—the state would pay, if you would accepted in medical school, let’s say in Tennessee or something, to an all-black school. They would pay the tuition, because they didn’t want you going to University of Alabama, for an example. So they would pay your out-of-state tuition to go there. Franklin: Why would that be? Webster: To keep it segregated. It was segregation. “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever.” You’ve probably— Franklin: George Wallace, right? Webster: That’s exactly right. So to keep it segregated, they would pay for you to go to another state. So it was—people who lived here were aware of that. And I think they just needed someone to be an advocate for change. Franklin: Yeah. Did you attend church? Webster: Here? Franklin: Yeah. Webster: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I was a member, active member of New Hope Baptist Church, which was right up the hill from Morning Star. Franklin: Right. How long did you go there for? Webster: I’m going to say probably ten years. Franklin: What role did church play in the community? Webster: The church was the foundation of the community. Almost everything positive came out of the church. I’ll give you an example. I felt that in order—it’s kind of going back to England and where they have piazzas, the places you can go and congregate and community, things like—I thought that Pasco needed a place, a neutral place, where people could go and they could call it a community center. And I could see the value of people gathering. We had a little place over in east Pasco called Kurtzman Park. It was a little building there. And I thought that we could do better. So I studied up and found that HUD had what they call block grants. They would give block grants for certain amounts of dollars depending on your application. I worked and worked and worked and got the city, the city manager, Mar Winegar, one of the finest city managers I think that ever held a city manager job anywhere, agreed to work with me in helping to complete an application. We completed a HUD application and got some $440,000-$450,000 to build what is now known as the Martin Luther King Center in east Pasco. The central labor council owned the land where that building is. We worked with them, and they deeded that land as part of the in-con contribution to match the HUD block grant. We were able to put that together. The way that we—part of Mar Winegar’s help and assistance—we were able to work out a strategy where the Pasco Parks and Recreation would somewhat manage the building. But to get the revenue, we went to get the various state agencies and other organizations to rent space in the building to help maintain it. So DS&HS, I think, had a small office there. Employment, security, had a small office there. Central Labor Council had a small recruiting office. So there were different offices in this building to help maintain it. And it became a community center. And not only did the community need the services of the agencies that were there, but it became a—but to answer your question, all of that came out of the basement of Morning Star Baptist Church. Reverend Allen was the pastor at that time. So I think if you point to almost any significant accomplishment, the genesis of it came from the spiritual and religious community. Franklin: It functioned as a meeting place. Webster: Yes. Franklin: In the community. Webster: That’s where the people went. I mean, when you wanted to do something, you go where the people are. On Sunday morning, that’s where you’re going to find them, and that’s where you make your point. You convince the pastor that it’s worthwhile, and then they’ll let you get up and make announcements and talk to the congregation where you’ve got a captive audience. That’s how you got your message across. So it was—because you didn’t have a newspaper or TV channel or radio station or any of those, except for a routine newscast or something. But if you wanted to tell your whole story, you had to go to the church. Franklin: Right. How would you describe life in the community, in east Pasco? Webster: It was probably one of the best lives that I have lived. And I say that because everybody cared for one another. People lived in harmony. Didn’t have much, so it wasn’t economically driven; it was more social- and spiritual-driven. Everyone was treated with respect. You’d hear very few disagreements. You didn’t have what they have today with solving disagreements, you know, with violence. It was probably one of the best places I’ve lived in my life. Franklin: What did you do in your spare time? Webster: Now, or then? Franklin: Then. Webster: Then? I didn’t have any spare time, because I was going to college at the time, and I was also very active in the community. I was president—I went on to become president of CORE, the Congress of Racial Equality. I was president of the Tri-City chapter although I was very young, but again— I want to make this point, something that I did not experience in Alabama. There were white people of quote-unquote high stature with very high moral commitments to help bring about this change. When I say that, I’m talking about lawyers and educators and scientists out here on the project who helped to bring about this change. You know, if I named—if I started naming like the Ed Critchlows—I don’t know if you’ve—the Critchlow, Williams and Ryals law firm, I think, is still in existence here in Richland. A guy named John Sullivan was a lawyer. Dick Nelson was a scientist here in the Project. I mean, there were just a number of people who migrated to this area from other places, highly educated, technical backgrounds, could see the same thing that I saw and was willing to give their time and knowledge and energies to bring about this—the Brouns, Dick and Nyla Brouns. They gave of their time and talents and financial resources to help bring about this change. That was one of the better learning experiences I’ve had. Franklin: And you said that was different from Alabama. Webster: Yes. I mean, I never saw, in my generation, and certainly years later where there were whites in the North that was part of the Freedom Ride and other movements, Martin Luther King’s movement, that came to the South. But you didn’t find folks that lived in Theodore, Alabama helping to bring about a change for black folks in Alabama. So that was my first opportunity to work shoulder-to-shoulder with white people to bring about this change. When we were marching on Pasco, for an example. Pasco City Hall was a totally white city hall that was supposedly serving the whole city. There was not a police officer, or anyone in public works, engineering, or any of those places. So, we were marching on city hall for employment opportunities. The Pasco Police Department, for example, had never had—at that time, had not had any people of color working. I applied for a grant that paid the salary of the first police officer in Pasco, on the Pasco Police Department. Franklin: There were also some issues between the Pasco Police Department and residents of east Pasco. There was some tension there, in that relationship in the ‘60s? Webster: As I recall, not to the extent that you have today, and not for the same reasons that you have today. I don’t recall any shootings of unarmed black people or anything like that. I look back and I think there probably was some collusions on the part of the police department and some of the elicit activities that were going on, you know. Because some of these things operated in broad, open daylight, that if you had a police department that was cracking down on them, it wouldn’t have been possible. Franklin: I was just looking back on an old interview with James Pruitt. I don’t know if that name is familiar to you. Webster: Yeah, Jim Pruitt? Yeah. Franklin: He had been—Jim, yeah, sorry. In the interview, the interviewer keeps calling him James, and he’s like, Jim, my name is Jim. Webster: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Franklin: He had been—he was appointed as a liaison between east Pasco and the police department, because there had been some excessive force arrests or something to that nature—or, it just seemed like there was a relationship that was a little rocky there for a period of time that would’ve warranted a liaison, right? Or was it just that maybe there was no interface between city government and east Pasco? Webster: I think it was more that than—I’ll be honest with you, I don’t recall. I just don’t recall where there were racial tensions or anything like that between the police. I just don’t recall that. And I do—I know Jim well—knew him well. It was more during the Urban Renewal and when that was going on. I think you may have talked to Webster about that. It was more during that time, when we were looking at bridging the gaps, the communications gaps and all that, because Jim was a liaison, I think, at the time that I got the grant to hire our first police officer. So I don’t recall that it was racial tension as we know it today. Franklin: Sure, sure, sure. But there’s certainly—a big part of your efforts was a big push to make the city more representative of its citizens. Webster: Yes. Streets and sidewalks were an example. Things that we didn’t have that the west side had. Education, where kids could go to school and get the same quality of education that the west side got. Those were kind of—jobs where they could—not just the labor jobs at Hanford, but jobs working in the City of Pasco, whether you were working for the surveying group or—as a matter of fact, I think I went to work for a while as a member of a survey team in city hall, going out surveying streets and looking at improvement districts and stuff like that. So it was that kind of—but we had to push city hall and city management to move on those areas. Franklin: Right. Webster: And that was pushed with a lot of leather on the streets. Franklin: And you mentioned that you had been president of CORE, the Tri-Cities chapter of CORE. Webster: Yes. Franklin: And CORE was a pretty young organization at that time, right? Webster: Correct. Franklin: And did it draw from all the three cities? Webster: Yes. Oh, yes. Matter of fact, a number of our meetings were actually held in Kennewick. A lot of the organizing and strategizing meetings were held in Kennewick. And many of the folks that was part of it came from Richland as well. And a number of them worked on the Hanford Project in very professional managerial roles. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, I’ve interviewed several folks who were involved with that. You mentioned the Brouns and then we had interviewed the Millers here— Webster: Yes. Franklin: And Jim Stoffels who was secretary. Webster: Right, right, right. The Millers, especially. They were involved as a family. I guess so with the Brouns. But I can remember the Millers were involved as a family. They were right there every day, working side-by-side. And we organized marches. We went from Pasco to Kennewick to emphasize the sundown. Franklin: Over the bridge? Webster: Over the bridge, over the bridge. Franklin: Was that the green bridge? Webster: Yes, it was. It’s kind of comical now when I look back. We were marching over, arm-in-arm and walking across, and there some cars on the other side of the bridge, they were standing there with the rebel flag on them, and they were raising the engine, and you can hear the engines roaring. I was arm-in-arm with Jack Tanner, who was the regional NAACP president at that time out of Tacoma, very influential lawyer at that time, and went on to be a federal court judge. I looked over at Jack. I said, Jack, what are we going to do? Because we thought they were revving up these engines to just run the cars. And he looked at me and said, can you swim? [LAUGHTER] I never will forget that. I said, no, I can’t swim in that water! Across the Columbia River. And he said, well, let’s keep on marching then. Okay, so we just kept marching and went on to the other side. Franklin: Wow. How did that feel to see that symbol, which you must’ve grown up seeing the Confederate flag all over the place. How did it feel to see that in Kennewick and Pasco, in Washington State, where— Webster: I’ll tell you. By that time, I was somewhat sensitized to what’s happening here and learned about. But it took me way back. I mean, it took me to the guys that was riding around on horsebacks with hoods over their heads with same flags. I mean, the only difference was that these individuals were in muscle cars with flags on them. But it was scary. It was scary. Franklin: That symbol was meant to— Webster: Intimidate. Franklin: --intimidate you, right? Webster: Intimidate, no question about it. Franklin: They weren’t showing up to promote Southern heritage. Webster: No, oh, no, no, no. It was to intimidate. But it was intended, in my judgment, to say to us, we’re going to keep Kennewick white. That’s what—and we’re going to challenge you on it. And, not in our backyard. Franklin: You know, if I could share an anecdote real quick with you, a few weeks ago I went to the march for immigrants here in Richland. Webster: Mm-hmm? Franklin: And we were marching right by the courthouse, did a big loop around Howard Amon Park. And a gentleman in a truck—I thought this was really interesting—with a Confederate flag and an American flag, was rolling down the street revving his engine, yelling obscenities, flipping us the bird. Which, to see those two together is strange enough, but then to use that as a symbol of intimidation against immigrants. It still is clear as day what the intent of that symbolism is. Webster: Right. And in the South, I think even to this day, the Civil War was just like it was fought last week. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: I mean, with the rebel flags and the sentiments and beliefs and values is just like it was yesterday. And how those kinds of feelings can be carried forward for generations is just amazing. It’s amazing to me. Franklin: Yeah. Do you remember any other particular community events, from—during those years in east Pasco? Webster: You know, we had a number of—I’m trying to, you know, there’s—it’s kind of coming back to me now. I can’t remember the incident, but we had a number of meetings in Kurtzman Park that was very tense meetings. As a matter of fact, what used to happen is Carl Maxey from Spokane, prominent civil rights lawyer in Spokane, other lawyers from Seattle, would come to Pasco, because we didn’t have any African American lawyers here at that time, and help us with civil rights issues. I remember I was having a meeting in Kurtzman Park where it got pretty heated, just among the—I don’t remember the issues, but there was one bombing that took place here in east Pasco. It was this gentleman, who lives in Richland, had built a business— Franklin: Right. I interviewed him. Oh, shoot. Webster: Carter. Franklin: Yes, Dan Carter. Webster: Had built a business, janitorial business as well as he had a ceramic store. And somebody set off a bomb. We were all in Kurtzman Park, having a big powwow when that happened, because everybody jumped and ran. Not to say there were not some very tense times back in those days, but I don’t remember any killings or anything like that that were associated with our movement or anything. Franklin: When I interviewed Dan and a couple others, they had alluded to—there was a disconnect or a tense relationship between African Americans in Richland and African Americans in east Pasco. And sometimes the two—not that they didn’t see eye-to-eye, but that people in east Pasco kind of felt that those in Richland or from outside the area who were trying to help were kind of outsiders or maybe they didn’t understand the Pasco issue. Would you say that’s the case? Webster: I would say that’s somewhat true. There was this feeling that African Americans that came to Richland came after the African Americans in Pasco had really built Hanford. So they were being recruited for the best jobs, and they had the best quality of life. And often did not relate very well to the people of east Pasco. And, yes, that’s when this intra conflict started to exist. Although there were individuals in Richland that related very well. But it was more of an economic divide, and a social divide than a racial divide. Franklin: Right, right. Kind of a class thing. Webster: Right, that’s exactly right. Right, right. Franklin: Related to kind of violence or destruction of property, I had heard in an older oral history, someone said that Luzell’s daughter had tried to move to Kennewick and someone had—the house had burned down. Webster: Yeah, there were a number of incidents that happened right after the—and before the Civil Rights Act. I remember one individual—excuse me—who moved to Kennewick and it was Jones. Her last name was Jones. And they moved to Kennewick. She worked for the telephone company in Pasco. Pacific Northwest Bell Telephone had an office right on Lewis Street. At night, we would take turns driving immediately behind her from the time she got off at Bell to the time she walked in the front door. So somebody would be with her. We would not let her go home by herself, because of all the threats and stuff like that. Franklin: Wow. Like phone, telephone and mail? Webster: And notes left on her car, and you name it. Franklin: Wow, wow. Webster: Yup. Rocks thrown against the doors of her house. They were trailblazers, in a sense, like the Slaughters, some of the first ones to live in Kennewick. Franklin: Right. Wow. I guess kind of a happier shift, do you recall any family or community events or traditions, including sports and food, that people brought from the places they came from? Webster: [LAUGHTER] Yes. We had some big events in the park and folks had their specialties, whether it was their black-eyed peas or their fried chicken. You know, there was another business that we had that she would always provide the chicken. There was the chicken shack. Franklin: Virgie’s? Webster: Virginia’s. Virginia. Franklin: Virginia’s Chicken Shack. Webster: And then, believe it or not, she was in a building. She lived in one portion and the Chicken Shack was on the front. She didn’t start serving chicken until maybe 10:00 or 11:00 at night and would go all night because of folks that went to the tavern and everywhere else that would go there after hours, right? But then across the A Street, down further in almost like a private home was another lady, her name was Sally. I can’t tell you what her last name, but it was Sally’s, and that’s where you went and got all the barbecue. I mean, this lady would barbecue for days. So all of those things would come to the park. And then we would have the Juneteenth gathering. You probably got the history on that, on Juneteenth, but that was a time to come to the park, celebrate, put the benches out, bring your best dish, and people just kind of congregated, just from everywhere in the Tri-Cities. Franklin: That was the celebrating the arrival of the news that slavery— Webster: That’s correct, had ended. Two years after the Emancipation Proclamation. Franklin: Right. And that was not exclusively but primarily a Texas event, right? Webster: Yes. Franklin: But there were a lot of— Webster: Some in Oklahoma, but mostly in Texas, yeah. Franklin: Right, because there was a pretty big contingent of families from, especially from Kildare that had moved up and— Webster: Mm-hmm, you got it. Franklin: --and brought that tradition with them. Webster: Yes, yes. And it’s kind of celebrated throughout the African American community to this day. But the point is that that was a major day in the park that people got together and brought their foods and their specialties there. Franklin: Okay. So we talked a lot about opportunities. You—so I wanted to shift kind of to some of your work—I don’t exactly know your timeline, so I don’t know where to start, but I wanted to talk about your work at Hanford, but also your work with the Urban Renewal. So I don’t know which one of those is a better one to start with first. Webster: Well, Urban Renewal was first. Franklin: Okay. Let’s talk about that first. Webster: It was going on at the time that I was the executive director of the Benton-Franklin Community Action Committee, which was in the late ‘60s, ’69, probably, to ’73, somewhere in that timeframe. Franklin: You were doing all of this in your late 20s, huh? Webster: Oh, oh yeah. Franklin: Like 20s and early 30s. Webster: Oh, yeah, and my teens. Franklin: And your teens. Webster: Yeah, early teens and early 20s. As director of the Community Action Committee—the Bi-county Community Action Committee, that was more of a continuation of some of the work that I had done as a teen in Pasco. As a matter of fact, I was offered a job almost the day I—I left as a teen because I got inducted into the military at the time—the draft. I should say, I got drafted into the military. Franklin: Right, for the Vietnam War. Webster: Vietnam War. And then when I got out and came back to Pasco, discharged and came back to Pasco, I was immediately offered this job as the executive director of the Benton-Franklin Community Action Committee. Franklin: What years were you gone? Webster: I was gone from ’65 until ’69. Franklin: Okay. Webster: Yeah. So in April of ’69 I became director of the Community Action Committee and again, continued some of the work that I was doing. Of course, that program was federally funded; it was part of the Economic Opportunity Act in the Johnson Great Society program. So you were limited in terms of how you could get involved in partisan politics, but city government and all those things were not considered partisan. They were considered non-partisan so I could be very active in those activities and working with the various organizations. So we created neighborhood councils and we were trying to get neighborhood councils to address issues in their specific neighborhoods. One of the neighborhood councils that I worked closely with was the East Pasco Neighborhood Council. And there, we worked closely with the Urban Renewal, which, Webster Jackson headed that. There was tension and conflicts there from a program standpoint. Not necessarily from individuals running these programs, but from a program standpoint. The Urban Renewal program did not have a major component to it in terms of what was being renewed. We knew that they were buying houses that they considered to be dilapidated and moving people out, but there was no housing being developed to give people an option to stay in the neighborhood or another section of the neighborhood. So all those people who were in east Pasco next to the railroad track and somewhat west of Oregon Street or west of Wehe Street were being, property being purchased under the Urban Renewal program, like I said. But there was no replacement housing. So it became more and more industrial. We were kind of fighting to get housing. Matter of fact, as part of that, Mister Romney, George Romney’s dad who ran for vice president or ran for president— Franklin: Oh, right, George Romney—for Mitt Romney. Webster: From Michigan. Mitt Romney’s dad physically came to Pasco— Franklin: Really? Webster: --to meet with us. Yes, yes, I’ve got photos with him. Because we were concerned about that displacement. It just so happened that that program lasted longer than I did, and I didn’t see it through. But I believe to this day that was probably one of the biggest failures that I encountered in the sense that, for me, that we didn’t see it through well enough to say if you buy this house, then you should have another affordable house to move in and hold the community together, as opposed to dispersing a community. A lot of people went to rentals and moved out of the area and so the neighborhood that we knew as east Pasco was basically, from a homeownership standpoint, was basically cut in half, if not more. Franklin: Wow. Yeah. I had heard that from a couple others that had been involved in Urban Renewal. Webster: It’s all big industrial stuff now. Franklin: Yeah. But it’d succeeded in getting rid of some of the very questionable and dilapidated housing, but it’d fragmented the community. Webster: Exactly. Franklin: And didn’t replace that with better housing. Webster: Right, yeah. Yeah, because a lot of people had taken—I wouldn’t say a lot, but some had taken their railroad cars that had been surplused I guess, and got them hauled in and joined them together. And they were putting them on cinder blocks and they were living in some of these places. Franklin: Wow. Webster: Very warm and nice and comfortable inside, but very limited space. But it was home. Franklin: Right, it was a home, and they fought to—it’s not like the government was allowing them to get home loans. But now the government was coming in and saying, well, you know, you got to get rid of this. Webster: And buying it out, but no real place to go. Franklin: Was there pushback? From people in east Pasco? Webster: There was pushback, but not from an organized pushback that I would’ve liked to have seen or that I think would exist today. Franklin: Mm, it was just individuals? Webster: Yes. And again, I was a young kid, you know? I didn’t quite understand the whole dynamics and everything that was going on, so I couldn’t provide what I feel today is the leadership that that issue should’ve gotten to get the results that you were looking for. Franklin: Right, right. That’s a sad but kind of common story in American cities with Urban Renewals, is describing that same effect, is a lot of the attention is paid to the clearing-out but very little is paid to— Webster: The building-up. Franklin: And finishing the program. Webster: That’s correct, that’s correct. Franklin: And then what did you do—you mentioned you didn’t finish with the Community Action Council, or you didn’t finish with the program, what did you move on to? Webster: Well, when I left there, I worked for a while after I got out of the CAC on completing the application and providing the infrastructure and the funding for the community center. I guess it’s called the Martin Luther King Community Center now. Got that all completed, got the construction. But at that time, I moved on to Central. As I mentioned, I got two AAs from CBC. Then I had an opportunity to move on to Central and finish undergraduate and graduate there. And after I left Central—and I also worked at Central. I was their first community affirmative action director, in helping to bring about diversifying their faculty. That went well. Then I came back to Hanford and worked at Boeing Computer Services as a employment manager. And had the opportunity to work there for quite a while, before I moved to Seattle and went into the banking business, and that’s where I retired. Franklin: You said at Boeing you were a— Webster: Employment manager. Franklin: Employment manager. What’s— Webster: HR. Franklin: And was your job, was it a similar, for affirmative action type job? Webster: That was included, but at that time, we were on an employment build-up. I had the authority, with the limitations of security clearances, et cetera, to offer jobs to individuals onsite as we went around the country interviewing. We had selection criteria of course, and if we felt that a person—and the competition drove a lot of that as well. Because if you’ve got to come back and wait to explain and help a manager understand why this person is good, someone else has hired them and they’re gone and no longer available. But we had the authority to offer the jobs right onsite, whether it was in San Francisco or Texas or wherever we were recruiting. Franklin: Were there many African Americans in similar positions to yours at Hanford, or was the workforce becoming more diversified? Webster: Yes. At Hanford, the workforce was becoming more diversified, because I think that was driven a lot by the Department of Energy. There were two gentlemen, well, actually, three, that worked in the human resources area at Department of Energy. And these individuals were also active in the community, who drove a lot of that. I don’t know if you’ve heard the name Bob Hooper? Bob Hooper, Fred Rutt. I’ll get Chandler’s last name—first name here in a minute. But Fred Rutt, Bob Hooper, were in the employment area for Department of Energy. They influenced these contractors to do the same thing. As a matter of fact, Bob and Fred were also involved in community, like CORE and the Central Labor Council, which we worked very closely with in apprenticeship programs and recruiting there. Then after I left, I left Boeing and went to—at that time, Rainier Bank, and I went into Rainier Bank in Affirmative Action. They were operating under a consent decree. But I had an agreement, after reading the consent decree and talking to executive management, that if I can meet the requirements—get the company to meet the requirements of this decree, which had to be signed off by a judge—that I would be able to go into the mainstream banking. We had a handshake on that. And the president of that bank, when the judge signed off on the decree, which was about two, two-and-a-half years later, I moved right into the mainstream of the bank. That’s where I stayed until I retired. Franklin: Wow, wow. I wanted to ask you—you sent me a few newspaper articles, by mail, and thank you very much. There’s one of you receiving an employment application. Do you remember that photo? I wish I had brought it. Webster: I think that was where I was leading a group to get employment applications. Franklin: I think at the city. Webster: At the city. That’s where we marched down to city hall and, as I mentioned to you, the city did not have people of color working. And in a challenge, they would tell me that we don’t have anybody working because no one ever applies. So I went and gathered up about ten people and we all went down to city hall at the same time to make applications for jobs that they had available. That’s when the photo was taken of us at the counter, applying for jobs, yeah. I was—whether you’re talking about a voter registration drive, whether you’re talking about unemployment, whether you’re talking about school desegregation, I always thought there had to be an endgame. There had to be tangible results to say that you’ve done something. It wasn’t enough to march from Pasco to Kennewick or march around city hall or go to a schoolboard meeting and have placards in your hand. I had to be able to see African American teachers being hired. I had to see students going into a different class and graduating. I had to see people getting a job. Man, I’m trying to remember the name of the company. It was a company when you go out to West Richland that relocated. They were processing potatoes and potato chips and all this— Franklin: Lamb Weston? Webster: Yeah. I went out there and was talking to the manager and he said, we don’t discriminate. We’ve got x number of jobs, and if you bring the people, we’ll hire them. The next day, I showed up with a carload of people and they walked in, and they did just what they said they would do. They hired them. And those folks had jobs. So, that’s how I tried to measure my success: on the results, as opposed to the activities. Franklin: Right. If you had to summarize the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here, what would they be? Webster: Summarize the activities? Franklin: Issues. Webster: Issues. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: I would say, number one would be at the top of the list would be education for younger people in the elementary level. Second would be jobs, more than just minimum wage kind of jobs. I worked very closely with Hanford to do that. Bob Hooper, Chuck Chandler—I remembered his name—and Fred Rutt were very helpful in paving the way. A guy named Ralph Eckerd who headed up an electrical company here, but also sat on a labor board, was very instrumental in helping to get apprentice employed on the way to journeyman. Being able to become a journeyman, not just in electrical, but in any other field. Matter of fact, they were instrumental in having an office in that neighborhood center in east Pasco to be able to recruit. And then they hired an African American guy to head that office to go out and do the recruiting for them. So employment was another major factor. I also think the voter registration and the participation in civics played a major role that resulted in both an African American woman being appointed and an African American man being elected to the Pasco City Council. Then after that, another African American man being elected and then becoming mayor. Franklin: That was Joe— Webster: That was Joe. And so I think the voter registration and the awareness of the political scene and what you can do if you have representation in the right place. And the right place was not on the street; the right place was where the decisions were being made, sitting on the council. And I think that was important. I also pushed very, very hard to have an African American appointed to the board of directors of Columbia Basin College. As a matter of fact, as part of this whole political theme, and the republicans giving me the opportunity to go out and do some registration—and this decision was based solely—solely—on the individual—I opened the first republican campaign office in east Pasco. That office was for Dan Evans, when he ran for governor. Like I say, I don’t know of a politician today, bar none, that was more honest and more fair, more equitable, than Dan Evans. Franklin: Did that early experience with republicans—or did that—are you a lifelong republican? Webster: No. And that is—you know, I just told you that I’m from Alabama and grew up and the r-word down there—if you’re African American, you may as well leave town, because you have tar and feathers all over you. So I’m probably as democratic as anybody can ever get from the bottom of my foot to the top of my head. But that was not—and I went to the democratic party first, to register people. When they turned me down, I went to the other alternative with the republicans, and that’s what gave me the opportunity to register people to vote. But in Dan Evans’ case, he was political in the sense that he was running as a republican governor. But I was not. I was looking strictly at the individual. And the integrity that he brought to the process, and what I felt that he could do. I was never disappointed in that. And I—yes, I took some heat from, even in the African American community, for supporting a governor—well, you show me somebody that’s better. And I believe that to this day that that was the right decision. Franklin: I was just curious. Webster: Yeah. Franklin: More than anything. Webster: Oh, yeah. Franklin: What were, in your opinion, what were some of the notable successes of some of the civil rights activities in the Tri-Cities? Webster: Well, I think, number one, is probably the biggest one outside of jobs and having individuals, like heading up the lab in Richland— Franklin: Oh, Bill Wiley. Webster: Bill Wiley. I think, if I had to pinpoint what I consider the biggest, was the ability to enforce the Fair Housing laws and get African Americans living in Kennewick. And there are individuals in Kennewick now—and this is our fault, as an African American community—have no idea, when they come to town, they just go right over to Kennewick and rent an apartment and live without any repercussions whatsoever. They don’t have any idea—no—but bringing that about, don’t need the credit. You just need to know that it’s happening, is the most gratifying thing as far as I’m concerned. That they can go and live anywhere in the Tri-Cities that you want to live. All you got to do is be able to pay your rent or pay your house note, and you can live there. Franklin: What were some of the biggest challenges, or maybe failures? Webster: Again, I think the biggest challenge that I saw was getting the right people to rally around a cause that—I’m going to use the word “I” at this point—that I felt was most critical at that moment in time. That’s where the Luzell Johnsons of east Pasco came in, to get the right—I call him Junior Smith, he was another one, too—to get them rallying around you and supporting you. I think the biggest challenge—the other biggest challenge was breaking the barrier between Pasco city government and Pasco residents who were African American. If you just stop and think about it, east Pasco was kind of like a throwaway place. Y’all or they or whoever, you can live over there. The streets were all dirt roads, there were no sidewalks, nothing, you know. They had some sewer and water, but no sidewalks. Franklin: Well, it didn’t even have sewer or water originally. Webster: For a long time—originally, yeah. But my day, when I came along, it was pretty much. But there were hardly anyone investing or developing except for down near the railroad tracks when the industrial went in. And to say that we’re part of the city. We want to work, we want to live, and we want to play in this city. And we pay taxes, and we deserve streets, sidewalks, curbs, gutters, et cetera. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: And we deserve employment in the city that we live. Those were the—making that connection was a huge challenge. Franklin: I had Pastor Wilkins describe it—he described it as, you could tell what the city thought of the black residents in east Pasco because they were on the other side of the tracks, and then he said there was, like, a dump and a highway and then a stockyard. Webster: Yeah. Franklin: And that’s what they thought of us, because that’s where they put us, was next to the trash and the— Webster: Yeah, and whichever direction the wind was blowing, you knew it. Yeah, the big stockyard was directly across the street from where I lived. I mean, directly across. Franklin: Yeah, those don’t smell pleasant. Webster: No, they don’t. No, they don’t. So we were, like I say, we were the throwaway part of the city. To bring about the sensitivity to change that mindset was a challenge. Franklin: Yeah. How did—oh, sorry. Webster: I was going to say one of the things, one of the other elements or factors that played a role was WSU. Glenn Terrell, I don’t know if you heard that name or not. But Glenn Terrell was the president of WSU. He made many trips down and worked with us in east Pasco. He also—I shouldn’t say he, but the Department of Sociology also sent students down to help us formulate ideas and do research and make sure our positions were strong and backed up with supporting data and reasonableness. So, that was before you had an extension or a campus or whatever they call it now, here at Hanford. Franklin: Yeah. I’ve seen some of the theses produced by the sociology students. Webster: Yeah, and we worked closely with Bill Wiley who was also a trustee at WSU, right? To help bring to bear some of the resources—human capital. Not necessarily money, but human capital to help us overcome some of the difficulties we were having here at the— Franklin: How did the larger national civil rights movement influence civil rights efforts at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Webster: Well, I mentioned that I was from Alabama. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Webster: I marched a couple times with Dr. King. Franklin: Really? Webster: I’ve heard him preach two or three times. My wife is from Montgomery. And I’m from Mobile. But when I would go up there, we would go and hear him preach. But what really moved me was I was sitting on a bar stool in my uncle’s tavern, watching TV, and was watching the march on Washington. And I felt extremely guilty. I felt like I had walked away from the movement in Alabama. I should’ve been there. I should’ve been marching. I should’ve been, I should’ve, I should’ve never left, I should be there, contributing there, instead of here. That was also that connection, and that connection with CORE, getting James Farmer’s information. All of that was part of the eye-opening experience here. What they talked about on TV in Alabama, I could see it in east Pasco. I could see it in Kennewick. I could see it in Richland. Those were all connected, in terms of the motivation to do something. Franklin: Wow. From your perspective and experience, what was different about civil rights efforts here? Webster: I think we had been lured into a comfort zone. We had gotten somewhat complacent with what we had. That had a lot to do with that we were better than where we came. But to say we can still do better took a bit more convincing than I originally thought it would. Franklin: Like, you maybe felt that some people—like, it was better, so it was good enough? Webster: Yeah, it was—you know, you and I probably have to really get our heads around the same thing. I’m doing 50 times better than my dad, so maybe I’m doing enough. And so, I’m comfortable. And I don’t need to get involved with Black Lives Matter. I don’t need to get involved with some of the immigration fights that’s going on now. I’ve done that before. I’ve been there, I’ve done that. Now it’s their turn. There are all kinds of ways of justifying being in your comfort zone. And there’s something that’s got to kick you out of that comfort zone and say, you need to be involved today. As long as you’re breathing, you need to be helping to move things forward. And that’s a challenge sometime, depending on how long you’ve been in that comfort zone and your motivation to do something. Franklin: Yeah. Well said. So, when you left, you left Boeing to move over to Rainier Bank, how come you left the area that had been your home—why’d you move over to the west side? Webster: That’s a good question, and the answer is not as logical as you might think. We had purchased our first home. We had our—we have two kids, and the baby, my wife was literally nine months pregnant with the second. And here I come home saying that we’re moving. But what happened was, as part of my employment management job at BCSR, Boeing Computer Services Richland, we interfaced with certain jobs with our professional recruiters. This recruiter called me up one day and said, Wally, I have a client that’s looking for—and he described this Affirmative Action job in banking in Seattle—do you know of anyone? I said, no, I don’t know of anyone. I said, but send me a copy of the description, and I will pass the word around. It was just that; conversation over. About three weeks later, he calls me up and said, Wally, you remember I talked to you about that Affirmative Action job? I said, yeah, I said, I don’t—you didn’t send me the description and I don’t have anybody. He said, well, we were thinking about you. I said, oh, no, I don’t want to move. That’s not for me. I don’t want to live in Seattle; I’m doing well right here in Richland. He said, what would it take for you to just go over and talk to them? I said, well, I’ll tell you what it would take. Send me over on a Thursday night, I interview on Friday, I get to spend the weekend in Seattle and come back Sunday night. He said, deal. So I went over and interviewed on Friday. The guy called me up and said, we would like to hire you. Would you consider coming? And I said no. And then about a day or so later he called me up again and said, how much would it take for you to come? And I’m being a smart-butt. I just threw out a number. And the first thing he said, you got it. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Webster: And what do you do? I mean, you’ve made a commitment, right? And he met it. So now I’m—not only that, we’ll do this, we’ll do this, we’ll fly you home every weekend until you have your baby, and then while she’s recovering, you can go home every week, and you can do this, and we’ll buy you a house, and we’ll move you, and we’ll put you up for 90 days while you find another house, and we’ll provide you with a mortgage on your new house and—I moved. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. How were your experiences in Seattle different from Tri-Cities? Webster: That’s a very good question. As a matter of fact, I’ve thought about that a little bit. I’m not as involved in social organizations as I was here. But I’ve tried to make change from the inside based on my experience. I went through a succession of bank changes. So I sat on Seafirst Bank Foundation, for an example, to advocate for change through grants and stuff like that going. I currently sit on the chief of police advisory committee of the chief in Lynnwood where I live, to help bring about the communications and changes there. I’ve kind of learned that if you’re at the table when the decisions are being made and you can influence them at that point in time, is that you can be more effective than reacting and waiting for the decision to come down and then going to react to it. Governor Locke appointed me to the Legal Foundation of Washington. At that time I was the only non-lawyer on that foundation. And then Governor Gregoire re-appointed me to the foundation. They distributed $15, 16, 17 million a year to legal aide organizations throughout the state. Being able to influence that, and being able to determine the kind of organizations that would get money to carry out the legal aide for civil issues as opposed to criminal, and who got how much. Like Northwest Immigration Project was one of the major ones that’s now helping to fight the immigration laws that’s being—to be able to be a part of that, to me, is how I have been functioning. And that’s how it’s different from when I was here. I was on the outside, working from the outside. Now I find myself on the inside, working from the inside. If that makes sense. Franklin: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And, yeah, because you kind of—you went into that world. Webster: Yes, yes. Franklin: Yeah. What surprised you, if anything, when you moved? Webster: Well, a couple things. Number one, contrary to what most people think, Seattle doesn’t have a “black community.” They think of the central district as the black community in Seattle. But if you walk through the central district, it’s just as diverse as anywhere else you can go. That’s not to say that a lot of black folks don’t live in central district, but a lot of black folks live in south Seattle as well. So that kind of surprised me. I worked on a campaign of several African Americans, like Mayor Rice, the first African American mayor of Seattle. Matter of fact, he was at Rainier Bank when I went to Rainier Bank. We worked together at the bank before he left to go to run for councilor and then the mayor. So the politics is a lot different. And it’s different from the standpoint that I don’t think even to this day, that I am part of the nucleus of the political power in the black community in Seattle. I’m still an outsider. Whereas in Pasco, three weeks after I got here, I was inside of the political structure of the black community, if there was such a thing, and able to go and meet with the mayor even though they might disagree, or the chief of police, or the captain of the police department. Franklin: Well, you know, when I started this project, everybody was like, oh, you got to talk to Wally Webster, you got to talk to Wally Webster. It’s almost like you were still here. Webster: Yeah. Well, I think that’s because I was involved in so many things at such a young age, and like I said, I measured myself on progress. Whether it was the first black police officer, or whether it’s the East Pasco Neighborhood Council, or whether it’s the voter registration drive, whether it’s the hiring processes in Hanford and with the apprenticeship programs in labor unions, taking somebody out to Lamb Weston to go to work there. I just believed that you go based on results. I want to brag a little bit and just say the other thing is—not that the other way was bad, and it takes both—but I was not a—and still to this day, I’m not a militant person. I don’t try to threat to get the results that I’m looking for. I kind of use the analogy of water. You may get to the bottom of the cliff, but you can take the path of the least resistance to get there. So you try to manoeuver your way—it may take a little bit longer, but eventually you get there. You get there with less roadkill. And to me, I’ve always—I learned early, it’s not always just the what, but it’s also the how. So I treat people that way. That might be another reason why. Even though I’ve been in Alabama and faced segregation and grew up going to the other side, stepping off the sidewalk, and keeping my head down, and going to inferior schools—which you didn’t know you were going to an inferior school until you got someplace where you were challenged, right? In spite of all of that, I’m not bitter. I think all of those situations made me who I am today. And I think that made me a better person today. So I don’t know if that’s why, but that’s what I think. Franklin: Yeah. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and living in Tri-Cities during the Cold War? Webster: I think the most important thing for them to know is why they are here and what happened. There was one incident I didn’t talk to you about, and this is—when they were building the Federal Building, we went to talk to the Federal Building to see how many African American jobs were going to be there, and we couldn’t get anybody to talk. Couple of us just sat right down in the middle of the—you know the gates that they put around the building when they’re doing construction and they open them up in the daytime for workers to go in and out? Dozers and everything. We just sat right down in the middle of the street, in the middle of the gateway, demanding to see somebody to tell us how many jobs going to be in this building. Not while it’s in construction, but after it’s finished. So I would like for them to know, especially those that are associated with Hanford, what went before them to create an awareness that got them there. It wasn’t just their education, the school that they graduated, and the degree that they hold, because there are a lot of people with those kinds of degrees that don’t have a job like they have at Battelle. But somebody paved the way. And they’re standing on the shoulders of somebody. And they just need to know that, as my dad used to say, if you see a turtle sitting on a fencepost, somebody helped him get there. And they got to know that they’re a turtle on a fencepost. They got to know that somebody helped you get there. You didn’t get there all by yourself. Because your legs are too short to wrap around a fencepost, you know? Franklin: I want to just—that’s an interesting story. So you sat down—you kind of blocked the construction way. What did you find out about the jobs there? Was there a direct action from that, or a result from that action? Webster: To be honest with you, there were direct actions from the construction employment. But I didn’t get immediate knowledge of a direct from the folks who occupied the office—occupied the building. I didn’t get direct results. But I will tell you that after working in the community with Hooper and Rutt, after coming to work in that building as employment manager for Boeing Computer Services and interacting with everyone there, I was able to influence. I was able to influence who worked there. Franklin: Was that— Webster: And there are people working today on this project, that I was telling you that I had the ability to recruit and hire on the spot, whether they were at Southern University or whether they were at Grambling State University or whether they were at some other school in Atlanta, Georgia, when we went to the Consortium of Historically Black Colleges down there, or we were in LA and hiring people there. Competing with Lockheed and others and when they were having layoffs. So I know people on both sides of the outlet today working at Hanford that came from my signing off a piece of paper, make them an offer, here’s an offer, subject-to. Franklin: Yeah. Webster: Yeah. Franklin: Right on. Is there anything else you would like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Webster: I think I’ve said it all that I can recall, but I would like to say that, again, that the Tri-Cities is where I grew up, where I matured as a man and as a person. It shaped my life. It gave me the incentive to do, not only more for myself, but it demonstrated to me what you can do for others, if you just take the time to do it. I am extremely pleased that my uncle plucked me out of Oakland and drove me to Pasco. Very, very pleased and happy that that happened. Franklin: Right on. Well, Wally, thank you so much for coming and taking the time to interview with us. Webster: This was a pleasure. Franklin: Same here. Webster: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. Franklin: Yeah, awesome. <a href="https://youtu.be/qlfBMQp8Y-k">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1962- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wally Webster Subject The topic of the resource Mobile (Ala.) Oakland (Calif.) Pasco (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Segregation School integration Migration Civil rights Civil rights movements African American colleges and universities Description An account of the resource Wally Webster moved to Pasco, Washington in 1962 and was influential in local and national Civil Rights movements. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/20/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9824ec8966bf981ce8951152b797944e.JPG bf9b93cefcb51ac53d04c8b194cee864 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Walter Braten Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Walt Braten on January 18, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Walt about his experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, could you state and spell your full name for us? Walt Braten: Okay. I’m Walter James Braten. And it’s spelled B-R-A-T-E-N. Franklin: And Walter is--? How do you spell “Walter”? Braten: W-A-L-T-E-R. Middle initial J for James. Franklin: Thanks. And do you prefer Walter or Walt? Braten: Walt is fine. Franklin: Okay, great. So, Walt, tell me how you came to the Hanford area. Braten: I had been working at a job that became more and more less-satisfying and I was looking for something else. I went into a gun store and talked to the people I’d been visiting with. I said, where’s so-and-so? And they said, well, he’s gone to work for Hanford. He’s got a great job. And I said, really? Tell me about it. And so he told me to come to the Federal Building and look into becoming a patrolman. So I did so, and after a time, they called me and asked me to come down for an interview, and then hired me. As a Hanford patrolman. But they have classes for people to prepare to be patrolmen, and it wasn’t going to start for some weeks. They said, would you like to come work just any old job we can scare up until the job opens—the training starts? So I said, sure, and I became a delivery guy, running around delivering phone books and all kinds of stuff. And then the training started. And we had several large books of how a patrolman should dress, how long their hair should be, and all the details of their job. After going through all that, we had also a lot of physical training. We had to climb a ladder that was held up by cables and that spooked some of the would-be patrolman. And carry heavy weights and run a certain distance. I did all that. And they hired me. So then I had a training session and it was physical and also information. I had to run a mile in a certain length of time and all that. And I did all that, even though I’d been working at desks for years before. I wasn’t quite as zippy, and I was a little older than most of the other would-be patrolmen. And I had a pretty good time, and I enjoyed the job. Lots of shooting and knowing what we should do and not do in a radiation area. Then I was hired and at first, I was—I think they called it a red badge or whatever—they didn’t give me a gun until I had some training. So mostly I just let cars in and out of the plant. I had to look at their badges, look in their lunchbox, look in their purses, look in their trunk and wave them on. And that, you can imagine, that got pretty boring. But they had other jobs, like tactical response team and traffic and working at the computer, person in charge of letting people in and out of the plant, making plutonium. And also they had a boat, a jet boat on the Columbia, and they had a helicopter. And I applied for everything. So I worked traffic, and I worked running the computerized protection for the Z Plant. And generally had an interesting time. Franklin: Okay, what year was it that you started out at Hanford? Braten: Oh, gee, I don’t remember. Franklin; Do you remember the decade? Braten: Pardon me? Franklin: Do you remember the, like, kind of a guess or like a timespan, what decade it would have been? Braten: Well, see, I’d say I was in my 50s. And I was born in 1930. Franklin: Okay. Braten: So—and then I stayed about 15 years. Franklin: Okay. Braten: At Hanford. Franklin: So that would’ve been like the late ‘70s, early ‘80s? Braten: Yes. Franklin: Okay. So you became a patrolman in your 50s. Braten: Right. Franklin: That is kind of an—older, I think, than the average person who—kind of, new patrolman. Braten: Yes. But I was able to do it. And I had a degree in—a bachelors—and I was accustomed to working with people in the other jobs I’ve had. So I had a good time. We had to be very careful and not make mistakes and let someone in who shouldn’t be in. And on everyone’s badge, there was information on their level of security and which plants they would be allowed in, and some other things. So it was imperative that we keep the security. Because this is extremely important; it was plutonium. We had to beware of the enemy, of course. Probably knew as much about it as we did. And we had to be aware of the love triangle where somebody wants to kill somebody at the plant. That had happened in another plant, many—out of state here. Franklin: Are you talking about the—oh, the lady—Karen Silkwood, is that--? Braten: No. Franklin: Okay. So—sorry, explain this “love triangle” thing a bit more. This is the first time I’ve ever heard of this. Braten: Well, if somebody is involved with someone not their husband or wife and the party being cheated on could decide to kill himself and the Romeo. This is what one person did, I was told. And they had a mess to clean up. Franklin: Do you know where that had happened? Braten: I was told it was in Idaho. Franklin: Oh, okay. So— Braten: This is all gossip. Franklin: Sure, hearsay. Braten: And then there was the disgruntled employee who’s going to be fired and wants to be vengeful and destructive. So we had lots of drills in the middle of the night. After I got on working as a traffic person—I liked it because I could run around. I had certain places I had to check. But they’d announce, intruder at certain place. And I would immediately accelerate, tell them I was coming. They had patrolmen involved in certain positions and jobs in that situation. At first we didn’t know if it was real, and then they made it real—let us know that it was a—I mean, let us know that it was a drill. Because we were going in loaded, with M-16s and pistols and shotguns and—for real. And we’d have some exercises. They brought in some people out of state with lasers on the weapons, and we could shoot at each other and disable and “kill” the other person. This was excellent training. We had a good time doing that, except when they’d have me walking around to be the first guy to get shot. That wasn’t fun. Anyway, our jobs were much like night watchmen at times, going through the buildings, making sure someone hadn’t left their coffee maker on or water running or anything that shouldn’t be happening. We also were checking for breaches of security. We had some file cabinets that had combinations on them, and they contained secret documents. If I went in the office and tried the handle and pulled it open, that was a breach. And we’d have to call the supervisor to come in and inventory the contents and so on. So that made us popular, too. Franklin: Did that ever happen? Braten: I didn’t find any. We would pick up their desk blotter and look under it, because we were told some people wrote their combination there. So we tried to think, as human beings, open the desk drawer if it was not locked and just look. That kept us busy all night. In one of the plants, they had a flood and the water brought up radiation out of the tile. And when I went in, I had—they called it SWP. They had booties and clothes and we went in and I managed to get my feet contaminated. They called it getting crapped up. Franklin: Yup. Braten: That delayed the normal routine. Periodically, we’d have an hour in the middle of our day to exercise. They tried to keep us physically fit and aware. And doing it right. There were dangers, of course, with contamination. If we went on top of any of the buildings, we had to get surveyed, because the bird droppings were radiated, would contaminate our shoes. We just had to deal with this existence of something invisible, odorless, tasteless, but it could kill us. Franklin: Sure. Braten: I enjoyed the job. We would examine the people driving in with their glove compartment and trunk and whatever. And when the busses came in, we’d hop on. Many of the people were asleep. Sometimes, I’d say, welcome to Disneyland West, and wake them up. I have to look in your purses and check your badges. One time, I looked at a guy’s badge and there was a woman’s picture on it. And I said, what’s this? And he said, oh, I got my wife’s badge. She’s got mine! So, we helped him go into the outside of the place he wanted to go in, to the guard’s station, where his manager could come up and write him a temporary badge. And his wife somewhere was going through the same process. We had some problems with people sneaking in, back when the coyote pelts were valuable. The animals on Hanford were tame, and they would come in and shoot them. So we patrolmen had to roam around in the dark and try to catch them. We never did. But I think two patrolmen managed to bump into each other in the dark. We had a helicopter that was French, had a heat indicator, could fly over and see people or animals. That helped a lot. Franklin: Were there any breaches or anything while you were working as a patrolman? Braten: No, not really. We were warned that the peace people would might sneak in and try to make a scene. But that never happened. That I saw. I don’t think it happened at Hanford. Mostly, it was people who were lost. They’d come into the Hanford Barricade and to the T where if they turned left, they’d go down to the Columbia, and turn right, they’d come back into town, or straight ahead into the Hanford Area. We had one guy show up—I didn’t deal with him—who was bound and determined he was going to go straight ahead because he had gone straight ahead, and by God there was a ferry in there. We told him, no, he couldn’t pay his toll. If he’d go out, turn right, and go down to the Columbia, and if there wasn’t a great big bridge, please come back and tell us. He didn’t come back, so he must’ve found bridge. But ignored the “come back and tell us.” Sometimes people would show up and dancing about really needing a restroom. They’d want to come in our guard shack if we’d let them. We weren’t supposed to, but often we did. We were well-armed and—I felt safe. Franklin: Kind of hard to turn down someone in need of a restroom. Braten: Some young woman about to have an accident. Franklin: Yeah. Braten: We had to use our common sense. And then I worked traffic for a while. Took training, breathalyzer training and radar training. Franklin: Was that traffic on the Hanford Site? Braten: Just on the Hanford Site. The management downtown would just have a cat fit if we stopped anybody outside the Project. They didn’t want us getting involved. We had to leave Hanford and go over to where there was a pump station, and there’d been some vandalism. So those working patrol would have to drive over there and look around. They were getting alarms downtown, and so we’d all rush out there. Turns out, it was an owl’s nest, and the mama owl would fly in and out and trip the detector system. So that was an example. Crawling around in the cactus and whatever, wondering what’s ahead was kind of tense. But it was just an owl. Franklin: You said you had to search people when they came in and out of areas. Did you ever find anything—oh sorry. Braten: We had a thing, you now, that would detect metal. And, well, sometimes people would mistakenly leave things in their cars. I opened a guy’s car once and there was about a metric ton of ammunition and stuff. Of course, you don’t enter Hanford with ammunition, guns, cameras and so on. And he said, oh, my dad’s a reloader and he borrowed my car. Well, he had to take—he or somebody had to take all that stuff down to the Federal Building. And he’d had to go down there later on to explain why and get it back. Another time, somebody had some guns, he’d been out shooting. One time, a guy had a flare pistol. A guy tried to leave once with his pickup truck full of sheet lead. I said, what are you doing? He said, well, I’ve got a pickup truck and it’s icy now and I wanted some weight to hold me down to get home safely. I’ll bring it back. I said, no, you can’t take all that lead out of here. Put it back. Stuff like that. Most—one guy had a missile. Turned out it was a model of, I think it was under Rockwell—a model that he’d taken off somebody else’s desk and was trying to sneak it home. That caused some excitement when we called in, there’s a guy with a missile here. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Braten: Once I hit a deer while on patrol and disabled a car, and I had to call that in. And I said, this is Braten working 2-4 and I hit a deer. And there’s a silence, then all kinds of excited communication: are you all right, where are you? And it was embarrassing. But anyway, somebody came and examined the scene. They later sold that car in their junk car sales they had at Hanford. That was broad daylight, and the deer just jumped up in front of me and ran across the road. Must’ve been unhappy and wanted to commit suicide. Anyway. There were times of a little excitement. Sometimes we had brush fires that were really dangerous. We had to control them and maintain security. People would park along our fence and take naps. And I’d see them; I’d have to wake them up and see what they were doing and send them on their happy way. That’s very—normally very humdrum. Franklin: Yeah. Had you heard about Hanford—so, you were not born—you’re not a native of Washington. Braten: No. Peoria, Illinois. Franklin: Peoria, Illinois. And when did you move to the state of Washington? Braten: Let’s see, it was in the early ‘60s. Franklin: Okay. Braten: I came out here to work as a missionary in Toppenish with the Native Americans and the migrants. Franklin: Okay. Braten: That’s how I got here. And I taught public school. Franklin: Had you heard about Hanford before you came out to this area? Braten: No. Franklin: No. Had you heard about the—I assume you would’ve heard about the Manhattan Project? Braten: Yes, yes. Franklin: When did you first become aware of Hanford? Braten: When I talked to that friend about a job that he had, an acquaintance had, that’s the first I’d heard of Hanford. And with my experience of being a juvenile parole counselor, et cetera, they might hire me. And I had—of course, I had a degree. So that’s the first I heard of it. I knew nothing about it. Franklin: When did you first learn as to what was being made at Hanford, and did it ever worry you to be working so close to atomic material? Braten: No. I learned what was going on when I hired on. And they gave us extensive training on contamination—surface contamination, airborne contamination. How could we get hurt, what we had to avoid. And if an area was marked, omit. Don’t pick up anything. If you see a big piece of rope or a mask or whatever, don’t pick it up. Notify the people who knew how to deal with potential radiation. So I knew nothing about it until I came. Franklin: What was one of the most challenging aspects of your work as a security guard—patrolman, sorry. Braten: Running. We had a captain who believed in running. I teased him and asked, Ralph, don’t you want anybody who’s going to stand and fight? He was an ex-marine from the Vietnam era. Anyway. Running was a challenge, a physical challenge. I could shoot. I was refused as a Navy chaplain because of my vision. But at Hanford, I shot expert, day and night, with the pistol, the rifle and the shotgun. That was no—that was fun. That was no challenge. But running was. Some of the training was a run, fall, shoot, run, fall, shoot. And I just couldn’t keep up to become a tactical response team member. I could, a regular patrolman. But that physical was the most challenging. And paying attention, not getting bored. Not getting lax. Not getting sleepy in the middle of the night. Franklin: Yeah, I imagine that would be very difficult, especially when you’re—what kind of shifts were you on? Were you on mostly nights, or did it vary a lot? Braten: Well, this was horrible. And totally unhealthy and everybody knows it except Hanford, apparently. We’d change shifts every week. And not in the same order as day and night. So we’d work a week in graveyard, and then a week in days or a week in swing, and year after year. It was really difficult. Oh, and we had a couple days off on what they call long change. That was hard to be rested. Franklin: I would imagine trying to switch from day to graveyard or vice versa with just a weekend to make that switch would be really trying on you. Braten: Well, occasionally—I don’t know what the other patrolmen did, but occasionally I’d show up on my day off. [LAUGHTER] And they’d either send me home or let me work. Franklin: That’s funny. What was one of the most rewarding aspects of your job as a patrolman? Braten: Well, occasionally, I’d—when I was out running around outside, I’d be able to help people who were stalled. The thought that I was doing something for our country. We were in the Cold War, back when our presidents negotiated, and we were making plutonium. And we and the Russians were playing chess. If you do this, we’ll do this. So don’t do this. And it worked. We didn’t have World War III. We had a lot of skullduggery and little brushes here and there, but we avoided World War III because we were well-armed. We had missiles in the air. We had weapons that would blow the smithereens out of wherever we dropped them. We had all kinds of missiles and submarines and in silos and in ships. I felt that I had a part in that, that I was protecting America. That was rewarding to me. Franklin: You eventually found a different—you quit being a patrolman. And how did that come about? Braten: They examined us physically every year and they gave us a psychology test. They didn’t want people running around with guns who had a loose wire in the nuke plant. Franklin: Makes sense. Braten: Yes. Well, at one of the tests, this doctor said he thought I had stress asthma, that if I was running around in an exciting time, I might have to stop and cough. I never experienced that, but they wanted me to stop being a patrolman. So they said, we’ll find you another job. Of course, they didn’t; I had to find a job. And I looked into quality control, which is about as popular as being a patrolman. You’re telling people they’re doing something wrong or have to stop sometimes because they have goals to benchmarks and stuff to achieve. And I enjoyed that. And that’s that packet of certificates I showed you. At first they trained me by follow-him. And then they got real busy and sent me to hundreds of classes, and one long one, about a year, about how to examine wells, if they were good. With the different kinds of wells. So I enjoyed that, being a quality control person. Franklin: Around what time did you become a quality control person, do you remember the era or—you know. Braten: Well, it was—let’s see, when did I leave? I left when I was 62. I was born in ’30, what does that make it? Franklin: ’92? Braten: Somewhere like that. Franklin: Early ‘90s? Braten: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay, so— [WOMAN OFF-SCREEN]: But you quit in ’93. So it was the late ‘80s. Braten: Oh, it had to be before that, if I left at ’93. Franklin: Yeah. Braten: Okay. Franklin: My bio here, it says—okay, so, you spent several years then as a QC. Braten: Right. Franklin: Which is what they call it. Braten: And I wanted to change because I thought I could make more money in communications. They sent papers around advertising the various openings. I went for an interview and the lady who interviewed me thought I was well-suited. I had a degree in English and speech and all this other stuff. And after we worked together a very short time, she decided she didn’t like me. It was—my feelings were the same. Anyway, she said I could apply for another job. We weren’t supply for another job for something like six months or a year, but she said I could start immediately looking for another job. And I finally retired. But then they called me back periodically to work as a QC again. But at my inflated wages. So that was great for me. Franklin: So you got the QC as the communications wages. Braten: Right. And of course, I was getting my pension, too, from having retired. So I worked various weeks when they wanted me and needed me in quality control. And I worked all the plants and places where they’re making models and experimenting. That was interesting, I learned a lot. Franklin: Did that work take you pretty much all throughout the Site? Braten: Yes. Franklin: At that time? Braten: Patrol did, also. Franklin: Right, so you have a pretty good knowledge, then, of the whole— Braten: Yes and no. I was in all the plants; I knew what went on. But if Russians tried to torture me to tell them how we made plutonium, I couldn’t tell them. Everything was still in that wartime need-to-know. You needed to know your job; you didn’t need to know the whole thing. And that was a mistake. I didn’t pay attention; I should have and learned all the other things. Because the security was lessening all the time and I could’ve done other things. They had jobs for locksmiths and laundry and—you know, everything. Map-making. So it was a pretty good place to work; you just had to mind your Ps and Qs. Franklin: Yeah. Can you describe a typical workday as a quality control officer? Braten: Well, I’d come roaring in from where I lived in Yakima or Sunnyside at the last tick of the clock usually. I would check in and see if there’s anything pending that I needed to go right away. Then I would go over to wherever we were working and suit up and go into the hot zones and look around. I’d be a pair of eyes and look for things to do, to look at. Every box where they made plutonium had gloves, lead-lined gloves. Each glove had a date on it and had to be changed out within a certain time. Well, sometimes, I would go into these areas and pull out the glove enough to where I could read the date and do the whole area and find gloves that were past their due date. They called these snapshots surveillances, and they could be solved either satisfactory, unsatisfactory corrected immediately, or unsatisfactory. And nobody liked the unsatisfactories. So I’d write up a surveillance and right away send copies to the people I should. Also, we had steel drums containing contaminated tools and other items. And these were—I had to inspect the drums when they came in to make sure the inner lining had a zinc coating. These, then, would be numbered, the lid and the drum. And when they had radiated material—radiation-contaminated, they would put a big bag in it and put the material in it. It wasn’t supposed to have liquids and some other things. And then they would seal it and then the outer rim had to be torqued and put pounds. And then a little pop-valve was torqued in inch pounds. I had to watch them while they did it, and the torque wrenches had to be calibrated within a certain time; I had to look at that. And sometimes tell these well-paid operators what they were supposed to do. As you tighten the ring, you’re supposed to hammer it with a mallet, and tighten it and hammer it. I said, now you hammer the ring. And he took the torque wrench and went, wham! I said, no! So we had to get another torque wrench while that one was recalibrated. So I did hundreds of those. And they took them out to a big pit and lined them up and then covered them with I don’t know how much dirt. They’re supposed to last hundreds of years. We also had attempts to create places where they could last even longer than that that were thwarted various ways. Anyway, so, I was busy inspecting drums, I was busy doing—if they called over and wanted somebody, they had a new job going in, and I had a little stamp with my number QC that I carried around. And I’d have to go in and watch them while they did this job. I’d look at the work order, what steps they were to do, and where I was supposed to verify it, and then I would. And then I’d stamp it and initial it and date it. So I did a lot of that. When the plastic shop made—they called it a greenhouse because it was made of plastic. It wasn’t green, but you could see through it. They would seal that to the front of a glovebox where they were making plutonium, unbolt it and open it up. And we were on supplied air, or tanks, and they would fix whatever needed fixing. Sometimes—one time, they had a broken front of the thing made of some kind of thick—it wasn’t Lucite, but of that sort. It had a couple of ports, a port down here, and where you could reach in and work. They came, I watched them while they drew up a plan of it. And I stamped that off. When they announced it was ready, I went in, they took off the front, had everybody sealed, you know. And they got the new one and they had turned the model over and the holes were all in wrong places. And this stuff costs a mild fortune. So they had to put the broken one back on, seal it all up, measure it and make sure, and then go make one right. That was an interesting time. They couldn’t blame me, thank God. Another time they did blame me. Somebody decided I should carry a Top Secret stamp and in the various steps in the making of these hockey pucks, plutonium, I had to watch while they made it. And when it first came in, I stamped the paper—the card that went with them, Top Secret—or Secret, not Top Secret. It was supposed to stay with that item. Well, the operators and managers had never had that to contend with, and they didn’t care. A whole bunch of those tags got lost. Well, anything marked Secret that gets lost, we have people from God in Heaven and whatever, in demanding to know what happened. So I had to go all over to wherever there was plutonium stored. When they made it, they put it in a double bag and then a tin can and you could feel the heat when you took hold of them. You couldn’t feel the radiation, but thermal. Well, I must’ve examined hundreds of them, exposing myself to find those. I found them everywhere in a little red wagon they used to haul them around, and on the floor, and on the wall. When they summed it up, they blamed quality control— Franklin: Of course. Braten: --for the security breach. Which I thought was a crock. Anyway, no one cared what I thought. I was a grunt. So that was quality control. We were a second pair of eyes, we were trying to help them do it right. We were sometimes unappreciated, but—oh, another time, they had some counterfeit bolts that were marked as though they were hardened enough to hold a great weight or twist or torque. But they were counterfeit; they were from China or somewhere. And they were mild steel and they would break. We found them on hoists, man-lifts, we found them everywhere. And for a long time, that was my job, going over and everywhere there was a hex head bolt, look at it. And you could tell the counterfeit by the counterfeit stamp, the way they arranged the markings. So we had sacks and sacks of them, and they said they were going to have us send them somewhere. Finally they said, junk them, we don’t want them. And we had a ton of those things. But we replaced every one of them with an accurate bolt. They apparently had gotten in the aviation industry and all over America. Franklin: Oh, wow. Braten: So we would test things. They had a container for shipping plutonium pellet—they call it a pellet or whatever. They’d drop it and see if it would break and so on. So we were doing, anytime they were testing anything, testing the elevators with weights, testing the hoists. We’d put on a hardhat, like that was going to help if anything broke. And watch them. So anything they did, quality control was there. They were very, very concerned about confined spaces, because people have died—one suck of breath and they die. You got to wear supplied air and have somebody watching you, or you can’t do it. So I’d have to go, and there was a supplied air job, standing up on the surface and watch. Also, they had boxes on all kinds of machines to turn it on and off, and they had a way to turn it off and then put a lockout device on it so somebody couldn’t come along while the guy was inside working and turn it on. They were lockouts. Well, they had a lot of education on it, and they had all of us QCs roaming, watching every place that was being worked with the lockout device on. And we made everybody keenly aware of that. We didn’t hardly find anything like that wrong, because they want to protect themselves. We went behind the scene for accidents. High voltage box blew up and melted copper and stuff blew all over everybody around it. They would send us films about the Valdez and every other—the place where the poisonous gas got loose in India. They’d examine every accident, why did it happen, how could it have been avoided, and they would show us those films to try to forewarn us of how it could be avoided. We had a person scalded because this area had been shut down and it was turned on. For some reason when they shot the steam in, it blew up and scalded a guy. They examined, very carefully, any accident, because they were very security-conscious. They didn’t want anybody hurt. Some of the Navy guys came in, nuke people. Of course they thought they were great stuff. I was dying to ask them, how many people a year get killed in the Navy by accidents? How many people at Hanford? None. So if you’re going to tell us how to do it, we’ll consider it. We didn’t have a choice, though. They were high muckety-mucks. You know, irritating things. We had fun with the PAC system. We could hit a number and talk in the phone and all over the area, we could say we need a QC at a certain point, and we’d all hear it. Sometimes people would mess with that, too. But anyway. Less I contaminate myself— Franklin: [LAUGHTER] What were the most challenging aspects of being a QC at Hanford? Braten: Doing it right. I didn’t have the eyes of eagles, and sometimes I had to look at a tag or something from, through a walled-off area and see it. So I thought of bringing a small monocular, binocular. I usually was able to do it. But I had a little trouble seeing some of the things. And I had to keep in mind what were the steps, what was I to do. And that was challenging to do it right, because I felt like, well, somebody told me that if a QC knowingly okays something and it’s not okay and somebody gets hurt, I could go to prison. Well, that made me highly motivated, even more than I’d been, to do the job right. Not because of punishment; because I wanted to. It was sometimes a challenge to interpret and to deal with some of the personnel. Most of them, we had fun with. I mean, not hilarious, but we treated each other like people. Occasionally, a patrolman would get badge-heavy and ruff, ruff, ruff. But most of us realized we were working with our friends and neighbors. We were going to do the job, but we weren’t going to jump down anybody’s throat. Franklin: What about the rewards? What was the most rewarding aspect of being a QC? Braten: I guess it was being part of a team that was doing something worthwhile. We had excellent rapport with our other patrolmen, mostly. Once in a while there’d be an oddball, but we were carefully screened and then have the written, and examination with the psychologist every year. If we screwed up, we heard about it. We could get time off, we could get fired. So I thought it was good to work there, with good people doing something worthwhile. There were irritating things. There were rattlesnakes out there and a few other hazards. But running into a deer when you’re driving 80 is really exciting. Or an owl with your windshield. You had to be careful, stay awake. Franklin: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about some major events that took place while you were working at Hanford. Braten: Okay. Franklin: I’m wondering if you could tell me how Chernobyl impacted Hanford and the community and your work there. Braten: Well, we were told—somebody told us, I don’t know TV or Hanford, that we should take iodine tablets. We were keenly aware that this stuff was circulating in the clouds, radiation. We kept close tabs on what was going on. We didn’t have to have much to do with it; we just had to deal with it. The most troublesome was the blowup of Mt. St. Helens. It dumped stuff that was the size of tiny, you could breathe it, to beach sand. We couldn’t stop with our duties and we couldn’t not drive. We had to put filters on our air filters, and we had to drive our cars in there through that. So I put filter material over my air intake and hoped I wouldn’t ruin my engine. We had to be careful driving in that poor visibility. On places it was ruining the paint on our cars and whatever. But we had to come. That was keen—we had to come. Whether it was a holiday or a graduation or whatever, we had to be there. So, it made us, whatever, committed, you might say. Maybe with a little grumbling, but committed. Franklin: How did your job change at the end of the Cold War, when Hanford shifted from production to cleanup? Braten: Well, I had changed jobs, of course. But there was an air of freedom and relief. Because we knew we’d be a target if there was war, or even without war, for espionage. Anyway, I think we went into a cleanup mode. They had tumbleweeds out there, lots and lots of tumbleweeds. But they were contaminated. What they were going to do was collect them and burn them. Well, they couldn’t burn them, because it would put radiation in the air. Then they brought in bales—like farm machines, to bale them. So what they did was, there’s a lot of sand out there, they built walls along the roads with these baled tumbleweeds to keep the drifting sand from drifting over the road and needing to be cleaned up. We dealt with the radiation and the potentials, and tried to lead normal lives. We found out the drinking water in our headquarters in 2-West was possibly contaminated. So, they had that changed with bottled water. And I didn’t know what they did then. There were interesting quirks. We had a big company picnic every year. That was fun. We’d get together and put races and picnic. And occasionally the management would call us all to a big meeting, and they would bring in buses and send us all somewhere downtown. And management would tell us what they wanted to tell us. The theory was they were helping us be onboard and take ownership—that was a big word. They were telling us what was going to happen. We really didn’t have any say-so in it, except yes or— Franklin: Right. Braten: But I liked working there. Occasionally I had problems, but I perhaps shouldn’t discuss them. Franklin: You can if you want to. Braten: Just—some of the—sometimes somebody in management would fuss at us without cause, just because they could, I guess. We, in patrol, were told that we were paramilitary, and saying pseudo-military just to have fun. But we had excellent weapons and excellent training. And we took pride. Some people would call us rent-a-cops. People who didn’t want to obey simple rules. You’re going to work there, you’re going to be searched. You’re going to have to obey security. And I felt like saying, you know, you should go to work for McDonald’s. They don’t have to put up with this stuff. But they’re getting super pay and they begrudge every day, every time they came in or left. At Christmastime, people would bring in, for gift exchange, wrapped gifts. As they came in, they had to unwrap it and show us what’s in there. You want to feel like a Grinch. Franklin: Should’ve just brought the gift and some wrapping paper. Braten: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. That’s funny, though. I could see how that would be tough to do gift exchange in a secure area. Braten: Right. Franklin: Yeah. Could you describe the ways in which security and secrecy at Hanford impacted your work? Braten: Well, of course, as a patrolman, that was part of our job, to see that the rules were obeyed. The badges we had that told all the stuff, we weren’t supposed to wear them out in public or be photographed. It was Hanford. It was secret. I had no trouble—I didn’t want to blab about anything. We had somebody in management in security that blabbed. Somebody came in and said, hey, my sister down in California says you got Uzis now. We didn’t tell anybody. Oh, another thing, the security around the plutonium plant, we didn’t tell our wives what was going on. But one of them gave a newspaper report and even brought reporters through. And I thought, what?! Anyway. It wasn’t for me to question. I just wondered in my mind that it wouldn’t be the way I’d run a war. Franklin: Different standards, I guess, for different levels of management. Braten: Oh, yes, most of the management was really good. Just once in a while, somebody’d be a cross patch. We weren’t always angels, either. Franklin: I’m sure. Well, you could talk about it now, because what are they going to do, I mean, fire you? You know? Braten: Burn something on my lawn or whatever. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] I don’t think they’d do that. I think they have bigger problems to worry about right now. Braten: Well, it was handy, though, when we were going to Europe, my wife and I, for a vacation, I could call Hanford at a certain number and tell them where we were going. And they could say, okay, and they would say, well, when you’re in this country, beware of this, this, this. So they gave us a heads up about potential dangers. Franklin: Mm. Kind of like the State Department publishes those periodic reviews— Braten: Oh, do they? Franklin: Yeah, of different activities, like, meant for tourism. Like, if you’re going to this country, beware of x, y, z. Braten: Gee, I didn’t know. Franklin: Oh, yeah. It’s on their website. Braten: We just went for a big trip a couple years ago. Franklin: Oh, okay. Braten: Anyway. Franklin: My last question is, what would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Braten: Well, mostly you hear complaints about radiation release. People who moved in down wind and felt they were contaminated. My feeling is they should’ve known we were not making popsicles. But anyway, I guess I’d like them to know that we filled a niche in history where we helped prevent World War III. And that we furthered research in nuke medicine and a whole bunch of good things evolved from Hanford. So, I’d like them to know the good things as well as the contamination. We have to deal with the waste and we have to deal with radioactive materials and for a long time, it has to be secure. So I’d like to know some of the good that we did. Franklin: Great. Well, Walt, is there anything else that you’d like to add before we wrap up? Braten: I guess not. I liked the jobs. I was grateful for the jobs, I was grateful for the pay. They gave us lunches when we had to lunch over—forced overtime. They gave us uniforms, did the laundry, you know, a lot of nice things. And a lot of training. I appreciate that, and I think we did a job that America needed to have done. Franklin: Great. Well, thank you, Walt, I really appreciate your taking the time to interview with us. Braten: Well, you’re welcome. Thank you for being interested. Franklin: Okay. Yeah, very much so. <a href="https://youtu.be/5MKr2OtELwU">View interview on Youtube.</a> Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1978- Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1978-1993 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter Braten Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Nuclear reactors Nuclear waste disposal Description An account of the resource Walt Braten moved to Richland, Washington to work on the Hanford Site as a Patrolman. Walt worked on the site from 1978-1993. An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 01/18/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F3c6536134e23b49c4d123c5d5f5fec82.jpg 2ac6d2164a282e80110a4f394a33c1ed https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F428e2a8933e60283aeab84d6169c1e86.mp4 80337064f89893720ccda5ac421cb3bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Walter Wilson Description An account of the resource An interview with Walter Wilson conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F82ba25b80eee33668ba65ff5f01064ef.JPG adfe3b554307d8be1e998288231177cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wanda Munn Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Wanda Munn on November 2nd, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Wanda about her experiences working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your name? Wanda Munn: Wanda Iris Munn. W-A-N-D-A, last name M-U-N-N. Franklin: Great. When and where were you born, Wanda? Munn: I was born in Brownwood, Texas, which is 17 miles from the geographic center of the state on September 13th, 1931. I was a Depression baby. So I had all that background and the joy of being a native Texan. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] How and why did you come to the area to—how and why did you come to work at Hanford? Munn: Well, in technical terms, I’m a retread. I decided in midlife that I needed to finish a college degree, and I wanted to do it in some discipline that was really challenging and had great contribution capability for the planet and especially for my nearer community. When you make those decisions in your 40s, you have some knowledge of what you’re doing. And it was not an easy one for me to do, although I did an asset-liability framework in my mind of what I could do, what—I was a divorced mother of two children and had the responsibility for a declining mother and a dependent sister. So it was incumbent upon me to do this as quickly as possible. I only had about a year’s worth of actual college credit, most of it at the University of Texas, much earlier in life. When I decided that I was going to go for nuclear engineering, my friends and colleagues were actually horrified. They all could understand my going out to find myself somehow, but a technical degree like nuclear engineering was a real stunner to them. They were fond of saying to me, but Wanda, you’ll be over 40 by the time you get your degree! And my response was, I’m going to be over 40 anyhow. I’d rather have it with this degree than not have it with this degree. So because my prior material was not actually engineering, it had been medicine, I really had to start from scratch. I didn’t have any money and essentially sold everything but the children, and I couldn’t find a good buyer for them. [LAUGHTER] But I tried to do a four-year curriculum in three years and managed to do it. But it wasn’t easy, and I don’t recommend it. [LAUGHTER] Nevertheless, by the time I had finished my engineering degree at Oregon State University—I was living in Corvallis at the time—I had fallen in love with breeder reactors. This was in the mid-‘70s, and in the mid-‘70s, the big game in town as far as breeder technology was concerned was right here at Hanford. The Fast Flux Test Facility was in the process of construction at that time, and it was the most exciting technical thing on the horizon. I was delighted to be able to come here and interview for a position there. And that’s exactly what I did. I became a member of the Westinghouse Hanford team that was constructing that reactor. And never looked back. It was a wonderful choice for me. A very exciting time, building on the shoulders of the giants that we’d had here three decades earlier. And I have never regretted a day of it. Franklin: Excellent. So, tell me what kinds of work did you do at FFTF? Munn: I was—for the most part I was a cognizant engineer. Westinghouse had an excellent program at the time of rotational program where you had an opportunity, if you chose to do so, to work in three different aspects of the construction, design, startup process. I originally chose to go into plant operations. It seemed the most exciting to me and we were actually building the structure at that time. We—I did two other rotations which made it possible for me to go all over the site, actually. When I say the site, the site that I’m talking about right now is the FFTF site, what we refer to as the 400 Area. It did not include the old production reactors and the waste projects that were underway by Rockwell Hanford at that time. I had been the cognizant engineer for the reactor system for a variety of the other head compartment systems. For the longest period of time, my responsibility was the sodium systems, especially the sodium testing system and the gas sampling systems. During a long period of time, I also worked in nuclear safety, which, again, took me literally all over the plant. It was a very exciting time. The Fast Flux Test Facility was a flagship. There’s no question about it. It was the most advanced research and development reactor in the world. Not only at that time, but no one, to my knowledge, has exceeded the capability that we had, nor the type of long-term vision that we had at FFTF. It was a specialized group of men and women. More men than women, obviously. That, of course, was another aspect of the times. And if you want me to talk about that, I can a little bit. It may or may not be interesting to your audience. Franklin: I would love for you to talk about that. Munn: As anyone who lived through that era knows, a woman with a technical degree was not welcomed, nor did they actually have access to many portions of the engineering technology. There were a few. I was not what I think of as a first wave, but I was certainly the second wave. The first—whoa. Sorry about that. I didn’t mean to— Emma Rice: Overload the circuit? Franklin: Overload the circuit. Munn: Cause—yeah, I didn’t mean to overload anything. We— Franklin: Did we—yeah, I was going to say—so we-- Vargas: No, we’re fine on the camera. Franklin: Oh, okay. Vargas: It’s battery-powered. Franklin: Oh, great. Munn: Okay, very good, that’s fine. We just—I had as my mentors women, several of whom had had careers in the military. It was one of the few real engineering doors that were open to them at the time. And the woman who was the technical vice president for Westinghouse Hanford at the time was Lieutenant Colonel Arminta Harness, recently retired from the Air Force and NASA. She had worked on the Space Program and had known me as a result of our interaction in the Society of Women Engineers. We called her Minta. Minta was the last of the two-year-term national presidents for the Society of Women Engineers. And she and her colleagues had been among those who were not allowed to go into other forms of engineering in the public sector, because they had two routine answers that they heard from potential employers. One was, we don’t have a women’s restroom in our building. And the other, that I thought was probably closer to the truth for most of them was, we accept the fact that you could do this work—not can, but could do this work. However, if our clients knew that the work was done by a woman, it would never be accepted. Now, that probably had some ring of truth to it, but nevertheless, it was almost an insurmountable barrier for those women. But as anyone who knows anything about the social history of the United States knows, in the ’60s and early ‘70s, there was a real revolution in this regard. I think it’s a spin-off of what happened during World War II. It rather astonished people that women could take the jobs that men had left and had done such a fine job with them while the men were away from the country. But it was just assumed that when they returned, of course, they would return to their positions, whatever they were, and that the women would go back and put their aprons on. There’s nothing demeaning about that, except it was pretty infuriating for the women who had shown for five years that they could do these jobs and had done it very, very well, to be told now that—not that they—they would no longer accept that they couldn’t do it, but they were told that they should not do it. And therefore were not going to be allowed to. These were the women who had daughters who were not going to accept that as an answer. So as the social process began to move, and the legislative process began to bring itself to bear, more and more employers were finding it necessary to hire a certain number of women in order to fulfill the requirements of a government contract. This was both an enormous opportunity and a terrible detriment for those of us who were living in that time. That social action, as a matter of fact, was a part of the reason why I had decided to go into nuclear engineering. It was the first time the doors were really open to do that. But the two-edged sword was very easy to see if you stood back one step and looked at it. That is, these women were going into a milieu where the individuals who occupied those spaces had thousands of years of history behind them, of being world leaders, commanders of all they surveyed, and they had only two interactions, they—well, I take it back—three interactions they’d ever had with women throughout their entire lives from the time they were infants. The women with whom they had ever interacted had either been caretakers, sexual objects, or clerical employees. There were no other options. That was their interaction. Now, women had been doing reasonably well in small entrepreneurial businesses of their own for quite some time. But this was a different thing. This was high technology. The fact that people like Admiral Grace Hopper were making the beginnings of the Digital Age come to life were not seen by the general public. That was such an outlier; it wasn’t commonly known. But as those of us who came into this profession during this period of time learned very quickly, the people in power were all masculine, as one would expect. But they had no experience in how to deal with a female colleague. Females, yes. They had females around them and a basic part of their lives forever. But dealing with a woman on a level playing field in a technical way was not an experience that they even knew anyone who could relate to them. So the first thing they thought was, one: you’re only there because you got a leg-up; you’re being given a free ride because you happen to be female. And the other thing they thought is: and if the free ride gives you as much power as we’re afraid it’s going to, you’re going to take my job. So as we went in, we had to do two things. One, we had to prove we really were engineers; we really could do the work. And two, we had to prove to them that we were colleagues of theirs, not interlopers who—we all know the general story about how women got ahead in that time. We had to prove that wasn’t on the slate, and that we were not going to take their jobs. This ain’t easy. And I’m very, very glad that I was older at the time this occurred, because I’d been accustomed—you know, I’d grown up with these guys. I knew who they were. I knew what they were like, and I understood what their lives were. So, it wasn’t hard for me to understand the disturbance that was going on in their intellectual world. But younger women coming in at the time didn’t understand that. They saw this as being some kind of real repression of some sort—an attempt to keep them from fulfilling their potential. This, in my view, was not the case. I still see that quite often, that sometimes women in technical fields have a tendency to think that they’re playing the minority card. But that is, in my view, no longer true. The concerns that I had at that time have long since passed, and I’m glad that’s true. Franklin: What was—I’d like to step back a bit, and thank you for that. I think that was a really illuminating aspect, and I might have you come lecture my US History class on women in the workplace at some point. Munn: I’d be delighted to do that. Franklin: What was—so, going—coming back to your motivation to go back to school, what was it—was there a moment, or when did you realize that you wanted to—when and why did you realize that you wanted to go back to school? Munn: Okay, now this is really getting down in the weeds here, but that’s okay. The reason I left the University of Texas was to marry. [COUGH] Excuse me. As I think I mentioned. I was in pre-med. I had grown up with great ambitions. It had never occurred to me that there was much that I couldn’t do because I was female. It occurred to me that there were limits to what I could do because of my intellectual prowess, but I had always been drawn to medicine as a child, and had actually hoped to go into psychiatry. Which I’m glad I didn’t do. But that’s not the issue here. The issue is, I left the university to marry. I was 18. Because I had graduated from high school at 16. I had chosen pre-med because that’s what had been in my head for a long, long time. It was science, it was technical, it was beneficial: it was all the things that I wanted my life to be. But marriage interrupts that kind of thing. It takes you to a different kind of world, a different kind of setting. My then-husband was in the Air Force, and so I followed him in the Air Force. He was an enlisted man. He was from a working class blue collar family. No one in his family—a large family—no one in his family had ever gone to college. This made absolutely no sense to me—why one would not advance their education in a period and in a place where it was difficult, but it wasn’t all that difficult to find a way to pay tuition. You know, why not? There’s state schools all over the United States. Choose something and go there. So it was rather difficult on my then-husband, because he was not prepared for college work at all, and I was just fairly insistent that he was going to do that. So he had a great deal of remedial work to do, and this essentially meant that I had spent about seven years of my life trying to assist him in his studies, and essentially support the family in doing so. He did finish not only his bachelor’s degree but also his master’s degree and was in the education field. During all that period of time, I was essentially doing professional work of one sort or another for individuals who held authoritative positions, but whose shoes I could have filled easily. I did not have what I call my union card: I didn’t have a college degree. Further, I did not have the technical training to do the kinds of science and technology that really and truly interested me. So in the ‘70s, I found myself the divorced mother of two, as I said, and with considerable family responsibility. I knew that I could not continue to support what is now a rather large number of people on the salaries that I was able to get as a glorified administrative assistant. By the way, there’s been a change of terms. In that period, the term administrative assistant did not mean a secretary, although my secretarial and clerical skills were very high. That was not the real reason I had the post. I actually was an assistant to the person who held the title, whether it was physicians, accountants, insurance people, academics—that’s what I did. But there’s a factor of about two, sometimes three, in the monthly salary of those individuals and in mine. So you don’t have to be a follower of Dr. Einstein to be able to work out the math. You know, it doesn’t take very long. I needed a professional salary. And besides that, intellectually, I had been spinning my wheels for 20 years. And I was tired of it. I was absolutely tired of it. I wanted to be doing something that was challenging me, and in which my contribution was a contribution. Not a contribution to the person who was doing the contribution. It isn’t that I wanted to be recognized for that; I’ve always been of the school that it’s amazing what you can do if you don’t care who gets the credit for it. I didn’t care who got the credit for it. I just wanted to be on the ground floor. That’s all. Franklin: So for all the degrees—the things you could have chosen in what we now call the STEM fields that would make a solid difference, why nuclear engineering? Munn: Can you think of anything else that’s more challenging and more imaginative? I can’t. At the time, it took me a while to measure down to engineering. I started with thinking of medicine, still. But when I realized the amount of time and the amount of money that was going to be necessary for me to do that, not to mention the time—the concentrated daily schedule that’s necessary for that kind of thing, given the family duties that I had—it seemed like an impossibility. So I had to rule out medicine. Besides which, it would have taken me seven years to get to the point where I could actually get to hands-on anything. That—I didn’t have that much time. I had to do this in—and I had no money. As a result of that, I really had to do something in a much shorter time. And it seemed to me that three years was all I was going to be able to handle. Now, when you take that away and you start looking at the other science things, the biggie at the time also was computer technology. We were just getting out of the room full of server stages, and every college campus finally did have a computer center where you could go in the dead of night and run your deck which you had typed. [LAUGHTER] It was still unknown to the general public. I happened to own the first 35 that was sold at the Oregon State University bookstore—the first handheld computer. [LAUGHTER] It’s still on my desk, as a matter of fact. But that was—it was an exciting time then, but I—what little I knew about computer technology, I knew the detailed precision that was necessary to do this. I’d already known—had the experience of trying to make a computer do what I wanted it to do instead of what I had told it to do. And knowing that the misplacement of one character could demolish the efforts of a whole deck just did me in. I couldn’t handle that kind of concept. I knew I would not be a good computer engineer. Too much real detail oriented in that. Being a big picture kind of person makes a difference. So I set that aside. The other thing that really seizes the imagination is something that so many people don’t think about—that is the basic requirement for any life anywhere is not food, clothing and shelter. It’s even more basic than that. It’s energy. If you don’t have adequate energy, there is no way you can do any of the things that you have to do to survive. The energy picture right there right then was easily as muddled as it is now, and possibly even more. I had looked—thought about mining, too. It just really sounded dull to me. Just dull. I’d been raised in Texas. Petroleum engineering was a big thing at the time. Oh, for crying out loud, you look around in the dirt, you find oil, you think you might have oil, you drill for oil, you either have it or you don’t have it. Then you either have success or not and you move onto another well. That just—that didn’t sound like much of a thrill to me, either. So long as I couldn’t be there to watch the well come in, what’s the point? This gets—there was, of course, a great deal of hoo-ha about solar, wind, ocean current—all those things were very big in the human imagination at the time. I kept thinking, really? No. Not really. Excellent for specific purposes. Useful? Oh, my, yes. Pursue it by all means. But the biggie? No. I already knew that there were only two concentrations of energy that could possibly serve an industrial society. And I’m all for industrial societies. And I knew that that was carbon-based fuels and nuclear. Well, let’s see. Which is the most interesting of those? Gosh, it didn’t take me long to figure that out. So, to me, it was just a pyramid. You start at the bottom and you work up, and the star of the fleet as far as I was concerned was nuclear engineering. How fascinating can you get?! My word. Totally unknown until less than a few decades before. And now the most incredible amount of power. Energy that we’ve never even been able to imagine, we’ve got it, we know how to control it, we can do whatever we need to do with it. With breeder reactors—hey. The only place I know you can make enormous amounts of electricity and still be creating more fuel at the same time. Don’t know anything else that does that. Highly imaginative, and not getting good press at the time, either. Franklin: I wanted—and I think you might have answered some of the question, my next question. But you mentioned that your friends and colleagues were terrified that you chose nuclear engineering. Munn: Yes. Franklin: Why was that? Munn: Too hard. Underwater basket weaving, popular psychology, you know, art, the many of the social sciences, the things that do good things for society but don’t require that much in the way of focused knowledge of some sort. That’s—you know, it takes a lot of work, but it takes a different kind of brainpower. We really live in two worlds, you know. C.P. Snow pointed that out in his books quite some time ago. We live in an enumerate world and an innumerate world. There’s nothing wrong with either of those worlds, it’s just that they don’t communicate well. And a significant number of people are math-phobic. Have been most of their lives and probably will be most of their lives. But the only way you can explain most things in science is numerically. So you either see that as a form of language, or you don’t. And I was able to see it as a form of language. Please don’t misinterpret me; I am not a good mathematician. But I do see the mathematic relationships in things. I see the mathematics in color spectra. I see the mathematics in music. I see the mathematics in what we’re doing here right now. And many people don’t see the relationship between these technologies and mathematics. Franklin: You had mentioned earlier some of the challenges that women of your generation—or in the generation—the time at which you entered the workforce, you mentioned some of the challenges that women were facing. Did you—were there any of those challenges specifically at FFTF, or can you kind of describe how that was to be a woman at this newly—this brand new reactor? Munn: Yes. One of the things that was very frustrating about it was that we did have a number of women who, in their lexicon, were breaking barriers, and I was glad they were there. They were doing semi-technical jobs. Many of them non-professional jobs, but nevertheless requiring interaction with the hands-on people who were on the floor putting things together, and doing cool things, like being able to stand over the open reactor before it was filled and feel how far it was from one wall to the other. Those are the kinds of things people don’t get to do. I got to do those things. It was wonderful. But we had a couple of things. Women had never been taught anything but dress codes. And knowing how to dress in a true working engineering facility was not a common thing. We would, for example, one of our Society of Women Engineers sections when I was visiting had a woman come and talk—a popular topic of the day was dressing for work. Dressing for work essentially meant dressing like the woman who was speaking to us who was an attorney. Now, the toughest physical barriers that she faced in her workplace were the carpet in the courtroom, trying not to slip down on marble floors. This is not the challenge that we faced in the workplace that we were talking about. So clothing alone became a big item for many of our young women who were coming in. They had been taught to dress attractively and a little bit sexy, you know. Always that little bit of come-on. And it was a bit of a challenge to convince them, first of all, that if you were going to be working in a plant, you don’t even consider wearing a skirt. I’m sorry, you just don’t. You’re not going to be able to walk across the grids. You are not going to be able to climb ladders. You are not going to be able to go where your male colleagues have to go to do their job. If you’re going to do this job—you can’t do it while you’re worrying about your femininity. I’m sorry. You can do that if you want with color. We lucked out there, didn’t we? It’s okay for women to wear any kind of color they want to. So you can be very feminine in your clothing, in terms of color. But I’m sorry, the long tresses that are so popular today? You’re not going to go in a working plant with this lovely, flowing hair that looks so good in a commercial, but is rotten when you’re walking around operating machinery. You don’t want to get pulled into that headfirst. No kidding. So—and there’s the business of the shoes. Even after my plant—the plant that the FF team put together—even after that was completed, in order to get there, if I didn’t want to walk two-and-a-half miles around the plant on concrete, I was going to have to walk across crushed rock. This is an operating plant. You know, we’re not dressed up for Sunday best. We’re working here. So why do you have on those heels? You’re going to have to walk across crushed rock. Why would you do that? I know it looks nicer with this particular outfit—fluff, fluff. But I’m sorry; that’s not why you’re here. So I had—the woman that I mentioned earlier, one of my favorite mentors, Arminta Harness—had what she called the Ten Commandments for a Woman Engineer. Most of them were humorous, but none to me was more humorous than what I believe was number seven, which said, Thou shalt not be sexy at the office, even if thy cup runneth over. I thought that was extremely humorous, and it still remains my favorite commandment to young women going into engineering. Thou shalt not—that’s—wherever else you want to be sexy, you may, but please don’t bring that to the workplace. So I have had one or two confrontations with—in each case, they were a technician or a runner for some of the construction people—but young women who insisted on wearing provocative t-shirts, especially. I’ve made a couple of them rather angry by telling them that I spent a great deal of my life trying to teach the men who are working here that I am their colleague, I’m an engineer, we’re building something together here. What I may think of you or what you may think of me otherwise has no bearing on why we are here. We’re being paid to do this very important job, and it will be done right. Don’t distract these guys with something like this while I have to come along behind them and tell them that this has to be done in a different way. And they’re not listening to me. They’ve still got you hung up in their mind. Tsk. Don’t do that. Those are—they seem a little strange now, given what transpires in today’s workplace and given the clothing that we have now. Frankly, I’m a bit disappointed as an individual that we as women have finally been allowed by the males who occupied those positions to allow us to use the capabilities that we have to perform the same kinds of functions, and yet you have—it never occurred to me that dress, as we see it now, was going to devolve into this, and to me devolve is the appropriate word. Never occurred to me that we would get so far afield from keeping our eye on the ball and staying focused on the task at hand when we’re in professional positions. But, hey. The world moves on. Brave new world. Franklin: Indeed. Were there any—did you face any kind of discrimination or attitude from your male colleagues at FFTF at first? Or was it—it sounds like you’ve described a pretty congenial relationship. Were there any instances that stand out? Munn: Well, there were one or two. But they only happened once. When they happened, I felt it was my responsibility both as an older female worker and as a real professional person to clear the air and make it very plain—not try to send double messages ever. And I think—when you’re dealing with human—rational human beings, you don’t have to keep doing the same thing over and over again. All you have to do is clear the air, make the straight statement that needs to be made, and you’re fine. And I have had to tell a couple of my—of people in my management chain, look, the last thing I want to be is where you are. At the time, it was assumed that a woman with a technical degree and an MBA was a really hot ticket. So of course, naturally, what the idea was—came to work at FFTF, and a year later started working at the Joint Center for Graduate Study, which is the origin of the facility we’re in right now. It’s now morphed into Washington State University Tri-Cities. It’s wonderful. But at the time, there were four regional colleges that had been pulled together, interestingly, by one of the people that was very instrumental in that was a man named Leland Berger, who was just—we just lost Lee last week. He was one of the people who were instrumental in putting together the conglomerate of universities to make it possible for the people who were working on the Hanford Site at the time to be able to pursue graduate degrees. It was a difficult proposition for someone who came here, especially if they were going to be a long-term worker, individual leader, here on the Hanford Site. They’re very far removed from any campus. So doing master’s work was very difficult to do. The whole concept of the individuals at the time who put together this consortium of universities was so that people could live here and, sure, it takes longer because you’re working full-time, but evening classes that are taught by fully-accredited universities made it possible for us to do that. So my MBA’s from the University of Washington. Go Huskies! Sorry about that. Franklin: It’s okay. Munn: Nevertheless—I’m not forgiven. Nevertheless, it was a concerted—a really concerted program, and it was almost impossible to take more than six hours a term, because you’re working full time. And at the time, we were in acceptance, testing and startup at FFTF, which meant that my days were easily ten hours long, and I don’t mean four tens. [LAUGHTER] I mean, work days were easily more than ten hours—ten hours or more. And whenever we had actual tests running, when we had things that were going on 24/7, quite often through the holidays and through weekends, we worked. But that meant classes were relegated to evenings only, and you didn’t have any spare time to do a lot of off-campus work. So we did have a challenge in that regard, but I think most of the people who were trying to do all of those things at the same time recognized that the benefits outweighed the problems that we were having to face in doing it. Scheduler problems are very hard. I was a fortunate person in being able to get by with about five hours’ sleep a night. Did that for a long, long time without any real detriment. But you do burn out on that after a while. We’ve been fortunate in so many ways in this region. The academic opportunities that we’ve had, despite the major problems that we have—not the least of which was isolation, geographically. Not isolation, but harder to get from here to there than it is a lot of places. Franklin: Mm-hm. Can you describe— Munn: Did I answer your question? I’m sorry. Franklin: No—yes. Munn: Good, all right. Franklin: You did, and then you actually answered another one I was going to ask you. Munn: Another eight or ten. Yeah, sorry. Franklin: So, can you describe a typical work day at the FFTF? Munn: Yes. Typical work day. Up at 5:30 or 6:00, something like that. Breakfast for the kid or kids still at home. Out the door before 7:00, because the traffic was terrible. The traffic was not just the work folks going out to Hanford; we also had three private sector commercial nuclear plants being built at the same time. So the construction traffic going out to the Hanford Site was pretty scary. You needed to take plenty of time, because heaven knows what was going to happen on the way. By 7:15, needed to be through security. Security is not often a time-consuming thing, because you do it every day and it’s routine. But you know that anything that you’re carrying has to go through the x-ray, and you know that you, yourself, have to go through x-ray. You are likely to need steel-toed shoes whether you take them on or off—whether you put them on at work or whether you put them on beforehand depends on whether you want to take off heavy boots and walk through barefoot or not. And it depends on whether or not there’s any real hang-up on the way in. Usually there isn’t. But, nevertheless, you have to take time to assure that you’re going through security or not. Then the place that you parked was never—it was impossible to park in a place that was near to the security gate that you had to go through. So, there’s a little bit of a walk to get to security, and then from security, there’s a little bit of a walk to where you’re going to be. You’re expected to be in your workplace and working at 7:30. Not just arriving at the facility at 7:30. So if you’re going to get coffee or if you’re going to have to wait a little bit for your computer to boot up, any of those things, you need to be in your office by 7:15, because at 7:30 you are truly expected to be ready to go. Much of the management in my part of the world was ex-Navy nuclear trained, and precision, as far as time was concerned, was important to them. So you learned fairly early that it became important. You didn’t have the enormous amount of flex hours that I observe people having now. That just didn’t exist. By 7:30, you had either documents that you were having to deal with on your desk, or you were dealing with the material that was being incoming by that time on your computer. If you had a computer on your desk, interestingly, it was—I had been onsite for probably five, six years before engineers actually had computers on their desks. That was—we’re so accustomed to that now, it’s interesting to think back, how—in my lifetime--comparatively recently, it’s been. And I was one of the few people who was ranting and raving about that, because most of the new engineers who were just coming out of school had just learned—they’d just been computer-trained. This first batch of computer engineers who were computer-trained at school. The others were completely on the ground for those. So there were very few literate people in terms of computers around in the mid-‘70s. There just weren’t a bunch. We had access to the computer facility down the hall, but you had to get computer time much the way you did in college. There was only one real server, and you had to go there to do what you needed to do. One of the first things I did in the circles that I moved in—the engineering circles I moved in—the first thing that we did at FFTF was the Plan of the Day. We called it the POD, and the Plan of the Day was usually at 8:00, which meant you had time to get your hardhat and walk from wherever you were to wherever the POD was being held. And I took—I had a hardbound journal about this size that I kept notes in. You had to keep notes, because too much was happening in too many different ways and it affected you in one way or another. You need to remember who said that and when it was going to be done. So you took your journal, you put on your hardhat. You had to have your hardhat everywhere you went. I’m sorry about the hairdo. That’s tough. You had hardhat hair if you were working onsite. POD could take anywhere from half hour to 45 minutes. They didn’t like to tie people up, because they wanted—the object was to try to get you to your workplace with your instructions for the day by 8:30. But that’s sometimes hard to do. Nevertheless, Plan of the Day, POD, was first thing. After the POD—not everybody attended. It was rare for me not to attend, for one reason or another, whatever position I was in, something was usually happening and I was required to be there. Certainly, after I went into nuclear safety it was a daily thing. I didn’t have a choice. I needed to be there, had to be there. And the plan of the day often—the individuals who were way up the management chain from those of who were there, quite often would appear to give specific instructions about some aspect of what we were doing at that time which was very crucial. We all were aware of what the timeline needed to be. Project management was key to how things were done in that particular facility. And they were done on time and in budget. There wasn’t any question about it. It didn’t matter what it took, you stayed and did it. And it was a team effort. I was never privy to any discussion about doing it any other way. This was an enormously devoted team. So, after the Plan of the Day, you had your marching orders for the day; you knew what you had to do. And you went to wherever the action was for you that day, and you did that. We took a half-hour for lunch. Depending on where you were, for a brief period of time, you had access to cafeteria food. We had a cafeteria in the 300 Area when most of the planning and engineering was going on there. We had a cafeteria for a short period of time in the 400 Area during construction. It didn’t continue. As many people brown bagged as not. Almost all of us had a lunch pail, and it was not uncommon for an entire group, an engineering group, to remain at their desks and working through the lunch hour—through the lunch half-hour. It was expected that you take a 15-minute break for coffee, twice during the day. Once in the morning and once in the afternoon. It was expected, otherwise, that you’d be at your desk, or if you were going to leave your workplace, in every engineering group I was in, we had a sign-in/sign-out board at the door of our group structure, wherever that was. And you always wrote where you were going. If you weren’t going to be obtainable at your desk, then you had to be reachable at wherever you were going. So you signed out at the time, and when you signed back in, you erased it. I got tired of writing Reactor Facility when I was going to the reactor, and started writing BRT. This was an enigma for about a week, until finally my immediate manager couldn’t stand it anymore, and he said, all right, Wanda, we know where you’re going but what does BRT mean? It meant Big Round Thing. But it became a common usage. We were going out to the big round thing. We were very fond of the big round thing. We were going to make sure it was built right and that it operated right. Franklin: And what is the big round thing? Munn: The big round thing is the containment dome in which the reactor—the Fast Flux Test Reactor itself was located. It’s quite a structure. Probably the safest place that I could find myself. I can’t think of a safer place to be, actually, than in that particular facility. I was—there was never any trepidation about going there, either in terms of construction or machine activity, or in terms of nuclear safety. Never concerned. Franklin: How did you transition into nuclear safety? Munn: How did I--? Franklin: How did you trans—you mentioned that you had started during construction and that later on you started working in nuclear safety. Munn: Oh, well, it’s seamless. Franklin: Seamless, okay. Munn: Absolutely seamless, yes. During the first years, we did not have an engineering building where the engineers themselves could work and stay. It was all constructing the facility itself. It’s a very exciting time, because just moving the huge vessels that had to go inside that containment building had to be barged up the river, offloaded here in North Richland, and taken by tractor across—directly across—the desert to FFTF. Because they weighed so much that it was impossible to do it in any other way. They were in a J sling, transported across. And the lamps and cranes were some of the largest and most spectacular in the world at the time. Those lifts were—placing those huge vessels was a sight to see if one has not been privy to that, then you’ve missed a very exciting—it’s slow. It’s like molasses. Nothing happens quickly. But it was done in a remarkably precise way. But it was entirely seamless. If you were in engineering at FFTF, then as the actual operation of the facility proceeded, your location and what your responsibility was likely changed as well. Franklin: Okay. When did the FFTF shut down? Munn: Shut down in the late ‘80s. Only operated for about a year. We went critical for the first time in early 1980. And we did our first power demonstration later that year. So 1980 was the key year for startup at FFTF. You bear in mind, we didn’t operate the way a commercial power plant operates, because we were a research facility. And what we had going on inside of the reactor was experimentation. We were proving that all of the materials and all of the equipment that were necessary to operate a fast reactor could be done safely and within the bounds of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission’s licensing agreements. So that this could move from a research and development technology to a commercial technology. That’s what we were doing at the time. So we started up and shut down according to what the tests were in the reactor at that time. It was very important that those materials have the length of exposure and the density of exposure that was necessary in order for us to show how that particular equipment or that particular material reacted under the worst possible conditions. Franklin: Okay. And so how long did the facility operate for as a research facility? Munn: It operated about a decade. Franklin: About a decade. Munn: Uh-huh, yes. And it was closed down in increments. There were a number of individuals and organizations that tried very hard to persuade the Department of Energy that the Fast Flux Test Facility should be continued to be operated as a producer of medical isotopes. It was one of the few facilities that could do that, because of the enormous range of flux that we were able to provide to the material inside. Although it had not been built specifically for that purpose, we were able to show that we could have produced a number of very unusual, very rare, very much needed isotopes. And could pay for about 70% to 80% for the operating costs of the FFTF. The response that we got back was, no, we won’t consider that unless the entire cost could be covered. This didn’t make any sense to me, because the many—there was no other facility in the DOE complex that paid its own way completely. You know, that just—that wasn’t why. The organization was funded by Congress. But we never quite understood the politics. There was general consensus among the folks that I knew that the shutdown was a political activity and not really and truly a technical one. Because we had fulfilled our mission. The original mission was to prove, as I said, that the materials and machinery that’s necessary to operate an advanced reactor could be—could meet NRC requirements. We’d proved that we could do that. And what we were attempting to do was to convince the establishment that there were other extremely beneficial uses for this machine and that we should continue to run it. But since the decision had been made not to pursue the advanced reactor concept in the US—I really shouldn’t get into that, because I get pretty rabid when I think about the terrible destruction that was done to the nuclear technology in the United States during that particular period. But that’s water under the bridge and can’t be undone. But because that advanced program had been shut down, and we had fulfilled the original purpose, then the position was, you’re toast. Franklin: Was this work taken on in the private sector, then? Because you mentioned— Munn: It would have been taken on in the private sector. Now, what we do in this country is a little odd. We have over 35,000 procedures a day in the United States that require manufactured isotope of some kind. We get over 90% of those isotopes from other reactors outside the United States. So, we in our medical profession and maintaining the health of the nation rely heavily on other nations’ ability to produce these and to transmit them to us in a period of time where they’re still useful. Because when you’re talking about medical isotopes, you’re talking about short-lived isotopes. They have to be—they have to give off their energy quickly in a precise way in order for it to be useful. If you’re going to keep them for long periods of time, the high density of energy that you need has dissipated because of the half-life of isotopes. Now, we could talk about that for a long time, too. But the sad thing is that we could have had that facility operating right up to this day, in my personal opinion, producing isotopes. And we opted not to do it. Franklin: Can you—or are you willing to speculate on the political motivations for shutting the program down? Munn: I think the political motivation is—was then, and still is—more fear than any other single thing. The most commonly misunderstood physical phenomenon in this world, of which I’m aware, is nuclear radiation. We have—we, being the technical community and the nuclear world—have allowed other people to define our terms and define our reality. It was a serious mistake. We spent the first 20 or 30 years of our existence telling people that this was an extremely technical science they shouldn’t worry their heads about; we’ll take care of it. And then when you’re dealing with an educated public—and we do have an educated public here—you’ve sold them short. And you’ve allowed them not to be learning on the same curve you’re learning on. That—to me, that should have happened. And we have technical people arguing about whether or not one additional millirem or gray or whatever unit you want to use is more dangerous than it actually is. And how one of anything can begin a huge cascade of cancer in anybody—this is all statistical garbage. It’s not true. It cannot be. But that aside, you know, we send people to policy-making positions—we elect people to policy-making positions who attempt to do a good job but who don’t know how things like radiation work. And when we have folks with concrete financial agenda going to them saying, these frightening things are happening to people and they’re happening because of this dreadful thing we call radiation, and it needs to be stopped. Then how can you expect a policy to allow an advanced technology to continue when the basic response to the word is fear? We’ve done it to ourselves to some degree. But we’ve allowed policy to continue when it just should not be—perhaps I’m overstating the case, but I don’t believe so. I truly believe fear of radiation is what has hamstrung humanity’s best hope for a continuation of adequate energy supply indefinitely. Franklin: What about the linking between nuclear and weapons, that was strengthened—started in World War II and strengthened throughout the Cold War? Do you think that might have a role in people’s perceptions of nuclear power? Munn: Oh, of course it does. One of my favorite comments is the one made by someone much more observant than I that if the electric chair had been invented before the electric light, we would have no electricity today. And I think that may be an apt comparison. We also have a tendency to believe that the effects of that—of nuclear weapons—are much more long-lasting than they actually have been shown to be. But that’s not a good headline, you know? Why bother with that? That doesn’t raise anybody’s ire and doesn’t even start a good argument. Franklin: It’s not quite as bad as you thought, but it’s still pretty terrible. Munn: It’s pretty terrible, yeah, there’s no question. So are wars of all kinds. I wouldn’t want to be in Syria right now, either. Franklin: Yeah. When did you retire from the Hanford Site? Munn: I left with Westinghouse. I always said that I would. The political and managerial aspect of what transpired changed rather radically when Westinghouse took over the large responsibility for the full site in 1986. Prior to that time, Westinghouse Hanford had been a rather small organization. We only had—what—3,000 or 4,000 employees, and we concentrated in the 400 Area. We were research and development. When the bid was made for the larger contract that covered all of the Site and took in the waste sites, the old production reactors, took on all of the legacy of the World War II—of the original Manhattan Project, a great deal changed in how things were operating. Then, later, in that period when we—when the decision was made to go back to having multiple contractors rather than just one or two, then it became very uncertain in my mind what one was likely to be able to expect to do to fulfill their job requirements. And I had said, always, I came here for research and development on advanced reactors. I have been a part of that throughout our ability to do it. That’s now gone; Westinghouse is leaving the area, so am I. So that means that the end of 1995, I retired and ran for city council. Franklin: And did you win? Did you make it to city council? Were you city council? Munn: Yes. Yeah, I was. The next four years, which was a very interesting period in Richland city planning, as well. That’s another whole program. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Can you tell me about some of your professional service? I see that you are a member of Health Physics chapter and a member of the American Nuclear Engineers and a member of the Society of Women Engineers. Munn: Yes, I’m a fellow of SWE—of the Society of Women Engineers. In 1976, when I became a senior in the department at Oregon State University, I was carrying an incredible load, trying to get through that last third year. But we had been, for a couple of years, we’d had a group of females—female engineering students—on campus that we had wanted to morph into a student section of the Society of Women Engineers. I was elected chair of that group, and that year we did become a full-fledged student member—full-fledged student section. So I was the initiating chair of that student section. The same year, the fellow who had chaired the American Nuclear Society’s already very well-established student section just made the announcement, oh, Wanda will take this for me next year, because we’re having a regional conference and there’s a whole lot that needs to be done. So Wanda can do that. Oh, good. So I was chair of both student sections on the Oregon State campus during the ’76-’77 year. And we did, as I said, we chartered the SWE section and we held the regional meeting for the ANS section. And somehow I managed to survive that. I’m not sure how. But when I came to—I came here—the Joint Center for Graduate Study had an interesting program that allowed an internship during summer for students. And so, as an, actually, still as a sophomore in the summer of ’76, I was here as an intern working in the FFTF offices at the time. And that was the year that this professional section, the Eastern Washington section of SWE was chartered as well. So I happened to be here during that charter. So for all intents and purposes, I’m a charter member of the current section. The Health Physics Society—in both organizations, I have been active throughout my life, both locally, regionally, and at the national level. I was inducted as a fellow of the Society of Women Engineers a few years ago. And I’ve served as—on the nominating committee and a couple of the other national committees for that organization. The American Nuclear Society—I’ve held all of the local offices and still remain in the position of—I’m called the historian. It’s kind of an honorific sort of thing. But I’m still very active in the local ANS section. I’ve chaired the National Environmental Sciences division for ANS. And I’ve received the national award for public information from ANS, along with a couple of other accolades of one type or another. The Health Physics Society, I’ve never belonged to the national organization, but stay closely connected to the membership and to the local Columbia chapter of Health Physics. The two—the American Nuclear Society and Health Physics Society overlap each other in interests so strongly that it’s almost impossible to be busy in one and not busy in another. So those three organizations have been a constant in my life since the mid-‘70s. Franklin: Okay. Can you talk a bit about—I understand that you were invited to—that you’ve had your hands in both helping with the NIOSH and the EEOICPA. Munn: Oh, yes. Franklin: And so I was wondering if you could both tell us what those are and then kind of talk about your involvement. And I guess we’ll start with the NIOSH. Munn: Okay, NIOSH I think is an acronym that I think is familiar to most people in the technical world. It’s actually the National Institute for Safety and Health that applies to everybody who works—has a workplace—in the United States. NIOSH was chosen to be the governing agency—I should say the administrative agency for a bill that was signed into law during the very latest days of the Clinton Administration. It was put together as a legislation to compensate workers in all aspects of the Department of Energy’s weapons sites during the entire period from the 1943 early activities here to the present. One thinks of the weapons complex as being the three major DOE sites: Hanford, Los Alamos, and Oak Ridge. The truth of the matter is there are over 230 sites that are covered by this particular act, because there were institutions that ranged from just over a mom-and-pop shop to Bethlehem Steel that were involved in one way or another in what we term the weapons complex. PANTEX in Amarillo is a huge facility as well. The Portsmouth facility. There are—you know, it—as I said, it goes on more than 230 sites. The concept here was that there were people who had been seriously—whose health had been adversely affected by their work in these communities. And of course, there is some of that that’s true. But the real impetus of this bill was to compensate people who had cancer as a result of radiation exposures that they had suffered. Now, one needs to begin, from my perspective, by understanding that there is no evidence of a statistically significant increase in cancers in any of these populations. And yet our Congress says—states that they believe folks have been dying like flies as a result of having been exposed to the radiation that they worked in. This organization was then, in accordance with the law, put together during the first years—first two years of this century. And President George Bush was charged with the responsibility of putting together an advisory board for this group as required by law. So, that was done in 2001. Our first meeting—I was requested by the White House to be a member of that group. I accepted, and became one of the original members of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health. This is supposed to be the citizens’ advisory portion of the energy employees act with the long name to which you referred. Franklin: EEOICPA? Munn: Yes. Energy Employees Occupational Illness and— Franklin: Compensation? Munn: Compensation Act, right? Franklin: Something like that, yeah. We missed the P, but— Munn: Yeah, that’s—I’m not sure. That activity has gone on now from that time to the present. I’ve been a member of it during that entire time. It has now distributed more than 13 billion, with a B, dollars to people across the United States who have a situation where they both have cancer and they also have worked at one of the complexes for more than 250 days. And this is not the appropriate place for me to state my real concerns about that. But I do not believe that this is a reasonable approach. The local newspapers are—I shouldn’t say newspapers—the local newspaper is a member of a national newspaper chain. And that newspaper chain just last year or the year before ran a series of articles about this particular action with a great deal of really, really heartrending material about people’s lives that have been ravaged by cancer. And there’s no way one can shortchange that. But I take issue with the assertion that those things are a result of workplace when there’s no evidence to show that’s the case. Nevertheless, that’s a continuing concern, and one of the frightening things that people continue to say over and over again with respect to our technology. Franklin: Mm-hm. What would you like future generations to know about working at Hanford and/or living in Richland during the Cold War and afterwards? Munn: It was, I like to remind people, a cold war. The purpose of all that was the assumption that if you work from a position of absolute strength, that you can deter the use of the weapons that we don’t want to use by someone else. And that if we’re assured, ourselves, we’re not going to be first strikers, then it gives us a feeling of protecting ourselves by being strong. That is a reality of the time in which we live. It can be changed in a number of ways. And politically, probably will morph into other things continually throughout human history for as long as human history continues. But being here during that time, was—would seem frightening to many people. It was never frightening to me; quite to the contrary, it was interesting in the extreme. But you must bear in mind that I actually was not involved in the nuclear proliferation issues. Quite to the contrary, the technology that I was dealing with was utilizing plutonium—we used mixed oxide fuels—was utilizing plutonium as a fuel to create electricity and to make nuclear isotopes—medical isotopes. And it used the plutonium and the other weapons materials as a fuel to create energy that we needed domestically and at the same time generate more fuel that can be used to continue to generate electricity ad infinitum. That seems like pie in the sky to so many people, but it is not pie in the sky. It’s a technology over which we have control, and we can do it. So, the way the weapons program is viewed is not something I can truly address appropriately, simply because that wasn’t a part of my life. I didn’t—I wasn’t horrified by it. I felt that it was a necessary part of the historic time in which we were living. I agree that we’ve done a good job of ramping that down in terms of nuclear arsenals. But the concept of not maintaining strength in that regard is extremely unwise to me. Being in Richland is living in a cocoon. It’s very much like living in an advanced university community. The people with whom you interact and the things about which you talk, the way your lives are lived is connected to, but not the same as, what transpires outside the cocoon. Because it is so densely populated with people and with ideas that are concentrated on a limited number of activities. So I’ve never felt anything but extremely safe in Richland. I have a hard time getting my mind around the fears that we—in my efforts to provide information to folks, I’m continually running across people like educators and physicians, especially in the Seattle area and in the heavy-population corridor on the west side of the state who are fearful of driving down Highway 240, for absolutely no reason except that they think there’s a mysterious ray of some kind that reaches us all. And they can’t understand what I’m talking about when I say, hey, the heaviest radiation you’re getting is—you’re absolutely right, it’s from the biggest reactor. We can’t control it; it’s completely out of our hands. You call it the Sun; I just call it a great big reactor. Yeah, that’s where you’re getting your radiation. Whether you’re driving down the highway that surrounds the Site, or whether you’re on the beach in Waikiki. It doesn’t really and truly matter. You’re being irradiated. Franklin: Or if you fly on a plane, right, you’re exposed to higher background— Munn: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. [VIDEO CUTS] Munn: If you live in Denver, hey. Or I can move from Richland to Spokane and almost double my external exposure. Because we have very low exposure here in Richland, contrary to popular belief. But the sad thing about this entire time, from my perspective, is the facts don’t matter. What people feel in their gut matters. That’s what’s driving us as human beings; apparently, it always has. Living here is a true experience. I’ve enjoyed it. I’m always surprised when people say there’s nothing to do in Richland. My problem is—probably because I’m continually invested in technical activities of some sort—my problem is, I don’t have enough time on my calendar. But it’s true. It’s an interesting, interesting place to live for a technical person, and I’ve enjoyed it immensely. It’s been a fascinating period of life. I’m very fortunate to have lived to be an ancient old lady. Very long in the tooth. And unfortunate that so many of my colleagues have already gone to their reward. Many of us feel highly rewarded, however, for having been here, having been a part of history. I have no feel for how much of this history is going to be written and how much of it’s going to be accurate. We all know, history’s written by the people who write history. And that’s very rarely the technical folks. So, what you’re doing with these oral histories, in my mind, is exceedingly important, not just to the technical community, but I think it’s very important for us now and in the future to hear the actual words of the people who were there. Remember the old—you may be too young to remember the You Are There little snippets of history that we used to get in the movie houses from time to time, and later on television. It’s nice, I think, to see the folks who were there, hear their words, and get some feel of the perception they had of their reality. It’s been a great ride, all the way from Model As to joint activities and the space crafts. Franklin: Well, Wanda, thank you so much for such an enlightening and well-delivered interview. I really appreciate it. Munn: Thank you. It’s been a wonderful, wonderful time to be here. Appreciate you, appreciate what Washington State University, and the national system are doing. It’s been a delight. And thank you to the long-gone Westinghouse Hanford Company. That was—and the Fast Flux Test Facility was and will always be an outstanding member of the research and development community. A facility like no other. We were very honored to be a part of it. Franklin: Great. Well, thank you so much. Munn: Thank you. <a href="https://youtu.be/RXmA9oJF9IU">View interview on Youtube.</a> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:35:43 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 317 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area B Reactor K Basins K Reactor T Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site late 1970s-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1980-1995 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Minta Admiral Grace Hopper Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wanda Munn Description An account of the resource An interview with Wanda Munn conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11-02-2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-31-1: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Relation A related resource <a href="http://hanfordhistory.com/collections/show/24">Wanda Munn, Oral History Metadata</a> 300 Area Atomic Energy Commission B Reactor B Reactor Museum Association Bechtel BRMA Cold War Department of Energy Flood Floods Hanford K Basin K Basins K Reactor K-Basin K-Basins Manhattan Project Mountain Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Park River Safety Savannah River supplies T Plant War Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe055fd0ab530129db6fe7c9f3ab59b55.MP3 54c7855ab5c96e0861e4cb60c0b500a9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Warren H. Sevier Location The location of the interview Home of Sevier Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [Start of Interview] Weisskopf: Today is July 13th and we are with Warren Sevier in Richland, that is S-E-V-I-E-R, right? Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Okay and I guess where I’d like to start is maybe a little background about like what you were starting with what brought you to Hanford. Sevier: Okay, I worked for an instrument company back east and started looking around for a job and this was advertised in the Cleveland papers, so I submitted an application and here I am. Weisskopf: Was the job highly tuned to what you were doing or…? Sevier: I was working for an instrument company and the job was instrument technicians. Weisskopf: Okay. Why were they advertising in Cleveland do you think? Sevier: I don’t know. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: At that time, the previous fall, they’d had a lay off here. They laid off a lot of people and then with the new plants coming on like the reactors and REDOX and uranium plant they needed more people, so they went across country looking for people. Weisskopf: So what time of year do you think it was that you saw the ad? Sevier: It had to be during the summer. Weisskopf: Of 1950? Sevier: 1950, right. Weisskopf: Somewhere in ’50. Sevier: And I came here in October of 1950. Weisskopf: Were you married then or have kids or anything? Sevier: No, I was single then. Weisskopf: So it was pretty easy to pick up and move. Sevier: It was yes, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Was the pay better than what you were getting or what was the reason? Sevier: Oh yeah, it was a factory job where I was working. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: And I wanted to work in a field as a field engineer. At that time, they had a Cadet Engineering course and I was scheduled to take it. Every once in awhile somebody from the shop would be qualified enough to take it but management decision came down that no one else would be taking the course in the future without a degree and I didn’t have that. Weisskopf: Okay, right. Sevier: And so that’s when I started looking for another job. Weisskopf: And did they pay your way to come out for an interview or how did that work? Sevier: No, I submitted an application and I guess they gave me the job. There was some correspondence back and forth of course. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Any negotiation about salary or did they just tell you what it was going to pay? Sevier: No, they told me what it was. Weisskopf: Was it a step up? Sevier: Oh yeah, from factory work? Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Great. Sevier: What I was doing in the factory was assembling instruments and calibrating ‘em. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. What kind of instruments were they? Sevier: They were for powerhouse type, temperature, pressure… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …flow. Weisskopf: All of which they had out here right? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Somewhere or another, okay. So you picked up and moved out. Did you know where Pasco and Richland were? Were you familiar with the territory? Sevier: I had been on the West Coast when I was sailing in the merchant marine but I had never been. I worked for an Alaska steam ship one time but never in Seattle and I didn’t realize that there was deserts and dunes like everybody else. Weisskopf: Did you drive out here? Sevier: Yes, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. So it must have been a little bit of a surprise when you found that you had arrived when you still didn’t look like you were in Washington. Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Where did you stay when you got here? Sevier: They had dormitories. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: In Richland and I stayed in the men’s dorm. Weisskopf: About how long did that last? Sevier: Let’s see…. Weisskopf: You got here in October. Sevier: Yeah, I think it lasted till, well I stayed till ’52 till I got married. Weisskopf: Okay, so you stayed in the dorms for two years? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And that was a normal thing to do? It wasn’t just for transient temporaries? Sevier: Yeah there was 13, I think 13, and men’s dorms and I don’t know how many women’s dorms. Weisskopf: Okay. And did you start work immediately upon getting here? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. So, where was your first assignment? Sevier: Well, in 700 Area Powerhouse. It still had some clearance, I think, to go through but anyway they had equipment from the company that I worked for and… Weisskopf: So you…yeah. Sevier: …they wanted somebody to calibrate it. Weisskopf: I wonder if that’s why they were advertising in Cleveland. Sevier: No, I don’t think so… Weisskopf: No? Okay. Sevier: …I think their ad probably appeared all around the country, I think. Weisskopf: Right, right. Refresh my memory in the 700 Area Powerhouse, where was that? Sevier: It was back of the 703 building, part of it is still there. It was in that open space where the bus terminal is now. Weisskopf: Okay. Where did that power go to, do you think? Steam or? Sevier: It was steam and it took care of the office buildings, also I lived in those little apartments on George Washington Way and they were steam heated at the time. Weisskopf: Okay. So that was a pretty standard non-nuclear job then? Sevier: Right, that was just until the clearance came though. Weisskopf: And for that job required no clearance…. Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …and so how long were you there, do you think? A matter of weeks or months? Sevier: Oh, just a few weeks. Weisskopf: Okay. Any problems getting clearance? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Yeah. So where did you go after that? Sevier: Went to the 200 Areas. Weisskopf: Okay, in power or? Sevier: In instruments. See they had a separate instrument division. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: They were set up with different kinds of divisions, there was separation division and so forth. Reactor had one division and separation, 200 Area separation and metal prep was 300. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm, all had their own separate instrument people? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Mm-hmm, but as a group we, most of us, belonged to the Instrument Society. Weisskopf: Right. Did you ever have meetings on campus amongst all of you or did you go to classes that would have mixed people from all areas? Sevier: Yeah I went to classes, right. They had classes for the people that came in here were either electronic or pneumatic technicians. I was classified as pneumatic so we had a school in White Bluff’s, in a warehouse in White Bluff’s, and we had both pneumatic and electronic people in there and they were from all the areas. So I think the school lasted probably about…oh six months if I remember correctly. Weisskopf: Cause an awful lot of your instruments would have overlapped with everybody elses. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And I presume that…were there standards that were used throughout the site? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. Was there competition among you guys and the 100 Area instrument people or…. Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …didn’t really know what they were doing? Sevier: No, no problem there. Weisskopf: Yeah. But you did share information? Sevier: Oh yes, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. So when you were in instruments in the 200 Areas were you more narrow than the entire both 200 Areas or for some aspect of them? Sevier: Oh yeah both. I worked in T plant… Weisskopf: Were you assigned to T plant, or that was just one of the buildings you took care of? Sevier: No, I was assigned to T Plant and also the tank farms one period. Then I was in a group that had the powerhouse and the remote weather instruments. Weisskopf: Right, did you ever have to climb the weather tower? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Was there an elevator or walk up? Sevier: They put an elevator in there later I think. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Yeah I did. There was no elevator at first. Weisskopf: You had to climb up? Sevier: Yeah, one time we changed all the thermocouples or ___ (sounds like thermones) I’m sorry…on the various stages where they measured temperature and uh…. Weisskopf: You had to work on the outside of the tower or how secure was it? Sevier: Oh you could reach from the tower. Weisskopf: Okay. Huh. So Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: And over, so what was your span of time dealing in the 200 Areas do you think? For the various jobs you had there. Sevier: Oh, for my whole career, just about. Weisskopf: Was it? Okay. Sevier: I think so. Weisskopf: Which went until when? Sevier: ’88. Weisskopf: Okay. 38 years. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: I even got a 35-year watch. Weisskopf: A watch? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Rockwell. It is kind of funny, you know, you work for all these various contractors at the same job essentially, essentially like I was a Project Engineer for General Electric Arco. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Rockwell, and then of course I retired from Westinghouse. Weisskopf: Yeah. Did retirement work out okay after all those transitions? Sevier: Oh yeah, fine. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Cause I know that was always something that it depended on who you were working for. Sevier: I worked a little longer. I was going to retire when I was 65 and I worked into the next year because I was upgrading the railroad as a Project Engineer. That was one of the projects they had and they wanted to finish that before I retired, so I did. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: I worked maybe in to January or February or something like that. Weisskopf: I guess the part I am interested in the most right now is T Plant specific work…. Sevier: Okay. Weisskopf: …and I guess what kind of clearance did you need for that versus other places? Sevier: I think, you didn’t, you just needed just secret clearance, I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Was it? Sevier: I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Sevier: I had TS clearance because I worked sometimes once and awhile in the 2, 3, 4, 5. Weisskopf: TS, was that higher… Sevier: Top secret. Weisskopf: What was Q level? Sevier: Q was normal I think. Weisskopf: That was just the basic. Sevier: Yeah, Q. Weisskopf: Okay, okay but you had a higher one. Sevier: Well later I did for working in the metal prep building. Weisskopf: Right, right. So when do you think you went to T Plant? Was that early on? Sevier: Yeah I think so. That would be…. Weisskopf: In ’51 or? Sevier: It had to be in ’51. Weisskopf: Okay, okay. Was that your first assignment in the separations area, actually working on the separations process? Sevier: Working in one of the process buildings? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Yeah, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay, okay. Sevier: Because before that we had the powerhouse and the tank farms, well the tank farms I worked in and powerhouse, tank farms, and the weather instruments. Yeah. Weisskopf: Followed that, or… Sevier: Well that was before I went into T Plant I think. Weisskopf: that quickly? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: You went into T Plant within the year of getting here… Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: …but you worked in all those other places too? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: One group had it all, had the three assignments. One group took care of the powerhouses, the tank farms, and the remote instrument groups, operative. Weisskopf: And so you weren’t stuck in one building all day obviously…. Sevier: No, no. Weisskopf: …the assignments came up and they would move you around. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: So what were you doing at T Plant when you first got there? Sevier: I worked as an instrument technician. Weisskopf: Which meant you could go anywhere in the building to work on instruments? Sevier: Oh yeah, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: How many of you were there? Sevier: Gee I don’t know, maybe counting the shift people, probably 10 in a group. Weisskopf: 10 instrument people? Sevier: Instrument people yeah. Weisskopf: On any one shift or through the entire, all shifts. Sevier: For the entire thing. Weisskopf: So there might be two or three. Sevier: One man on a shift. See we were working six days a week. So short change was a matter of a few hours. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: But I didn’t work shift there I worked days but I worked shift later at REDOX. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: When they started up REDOX. Weisskopf: Everything they did at T Plant was remote controlled, so I presume that instruments were as critical as instruments can ever get. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Were you sort of on emergency call and when things came up you had to get to ‘em right away. Sevier: Yeah, of course as I say they had shift coverage so they had to have a man there all the time. Weisskopf: But, was it frequently, would the process stop until you guys fixed it? Sevier: No, because it was batch. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: They get in to the process, I mean start and stop. I’m not to sure… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: But it was a batch process. Weisskopf: People weren’t yelling at you continually about holding up the process. Sevier: Oh no. Weisskopf: Did you know much about the process while you were working there? Sevier: Not too much because it was a no no to read run books and things like that. Weisskopf: The logs. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Sevier: You get caught reading those and you get a little lecture but nobody read ‘em because really…if you were a chemist or something it might be fine but… Weisskopf: Right, right otherwise it would be boring reading. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Did you ever have to dress up and go in the canyon to do instruments? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: How often was that? Weekly or every now and then? Sevier: No it wasn’t very often. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: We had one project I remember, when they sent the slugs over from the 100 Areas they were in water and it was always a problem sending the cask cars back empty because they wouldn’t have the heat anymore and they would freeze up. Weisskopf: Oh in the winter time? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Really? Sevier: So what they were trying to do was establish a point where they did not need the water to cool the slugs. Weisskopf: Oh. Sevier: So what they did is there was a swimming pool, what they call a swimming pool, a big pool in T Plant and they would bring a basket of slugs in and put it down in there and then we would put thermocouples in amongst the slugs and then we get out of there and they would pull it out and put it up on deck and watch the temperature. If it got to hot they would put it back in. They wanted to see how long it would take for the green slugs to cool down enough so that they wouldn’t need the water coming over. Weisskopf: They wanted to find out if they needed it coming over from the reactors. Sevier: From the reactor with the slugs. See the slugs… Weisskopf: Okay… Sevier: …provided heat. Weisskopf: They weren’t set up at the reactor to do these kinds of measurements. Sevier: Apparently not. Weisskopf: It was easier to do it at your place. Sevier: It was easier to do with the swimming pool there… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Or the pool rather. Weisskopf: Okay, so they’d measure the temperature in the water and out of the water and… Sevier: Mostly out of the water, pull it out and let it heat up and then established a point where it safe to ship it without water so they wouldn’t freeze up in the winter. I mean that’s just one… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …one little thing. Weisskopf: Why didn’t they just empty the water out after taking the fuel out of the cask car? Sevier: I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: I was thinking about that. Weisskopf: Yeah. So what they wanted to do was ship it over without water in the cask car. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And that was one of the times you had to suit up… Sevier: Yep. Weisskopf: …then be out there. Where the heck were you when they were lifting fresh fuel out of the swimming pool? Sevier: Oh no you don’t get it. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: You get out of it. You don’t stay in the canyon. Weisskopf: Yeah. And were they, so you put the thermocouple down in the water while it was safe to do so? Sevier: In the basket, Yeah. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Slugs were in a basket and you put the thermocouple down in there with tongs. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And then… Weisskopf: You’d leave at that point. Sevier: …leave right. Weisskopf: And the crane operator… Sevier: Of course the wire is hooked up and so forth. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: The crane operator would then pull it out and put it up on deck and then they would watch the temperature if it got too hot to go back in the pool. Weisskopf: Okay. So you were looking down in the cell then. You were working down in, or you know looking over the edge. Sevier: _____ (unclear) the pool. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Was it big? Sevier: Oh yeah, it was a big pool Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. How many buckets were down there when you were doing this? Sevier: Oh, this was just the one bucket. Weisskopf: Just for the test? Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Sevier: I think it would have been too hot with others. Weisskopf: And they tended to have redundancy in instruments so if something did go out they could continue the process? Sevier: I think so in a way. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: But with the batch process of course you could always stop. Weisskopf: At any given point. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Where did you tend to, did you spend, where did you spend most of your time dealing with instruments, what part of the building? Sevier: In the gallery, the operating gallery… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: …that’s where your readout instruments are. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And it would be a matter of routine calibration. Sevier: Preventative… Weisskopf: According to a schedule? Sevier: …yeah maintenance… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Preventative maintenance. Weisskopf: Did that include like the big scales they had. Sevier: Yeah we had a scale man. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: I worked with him sometimes, everybody, he took care of the scales there and also the railroad scales. Riverland, which is where the rails used to come in. They had scales there. I remember going over there one day with him. Then, let’s see…. Weisskopf: So, there was always, everyday if there were no problems you still had work to do everyday… Sevier: Yeah, routine, oh yeah. Weisskopf: …calibrating routine work. How often were there problems where you had to stop what you were doing and go fix something? Was it frequent or infrequent? Sevier: I would say infrequent. Weisskopf: Just every now and then? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Did you ever go up in the crane operator’s cabin? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah? While it was running or? Sevier: The periscopes belonged to the instrument groups. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Sevier: But we had, there was a specialist in the 300 Area that took care of the periscopes but we might go with him you know and help out. Weisskopf: While they were working? Or just during off hours, would you be up there? Sevier: Oh off hours, Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Sevier: Cause you couldn’t have any cells open or anything. Even though you were behind a concrete wall. Weisskopf: Right. Cause, oh you were working on the outside on the periscopes themselves. Sevier: Periscopes, right. Weisskopf: Right, okay. Was there TV installed at that point? Sevier: No, that was too early. They put TV on at PUREX, the first ones, and that didn’t work too well at first, the first TV’s. But the PUREX were the first application. Weisskopf: Okay. You don’t remember any TV screens inside the crane at the T Plant. Sevier: No, not at T, not then no. Weisskopf: So suiting up was sort of a normal thing to do? Not frequent maybe. Sevier: No, it wasn’t frequent, no. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Usually it was pretty well organized. Weisskopf: But weren’t the instruments, the other ends of the instruments were all in the cells right? Sevier: The sensing elements? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: And what would you do if something went out in one of the dissolvers? Or you know… Sevier: Oh they probably, they were on jumpers so the crane operator would take them out. Weisskopf: You would take the whole thing out? Sevier: And conceivably it would be hot so they would bury it and you’d have a replacement one in which… Weisskopf: And were you the one who would install you know a thermocouple or something in a jumper? Sevier: In a jumper, yeah, you wouldn’t build a jumper but you would put the thermocouple in. Weisskopf: Where would you go to do that? Sevier: Up at the maintenance shop where they…. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: ...built the jumpers. Weisskopf: So they would simply have an order for that and you’d go in and they’d tell you put it in there. Sevier: No, sometimes they had spares depending on the instrument. Weisskopf: Was it all pretty well set up and easy to do or was there still lots of jury-rigging or making fit or something like that? Sevier: No, I thought it was pretty well thought out, planned before. Weisskopf: You guys weren’t changing things, improving, upgrading all time, where you had to constantly fine tune it? Sevier: No I don’t think so, not in that sense. Weisskopf: And the instruments in the gallery was like hundreds of yards of instruments… Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weiskopf: Did you understand, I guess most of them were repeated instruments though right? There was a finite number of types of instruments. Sevier: Yeah, they could have weight factors, BG, and temperatures… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: …pressures. Weisskopf: Microphones. Sevier: They had microphones yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: I thought that was a pretty real black and white way of finding out if something was working. Sevier: Yeah, you could hear it. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah, real basic. So if you had training or experience on any one of those you could go down the aisle and find them all up…. Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: …and down the operating gallery. Sevier: And then the radiation instrumentation. They were at usually Beckman’s. Weiskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: They’re pretty standard. The weight factor and that was usually a ring balance and temperature was usually oh, Honeywell or somebody like that, Brown. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. All standard equipment kind. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Did radiation ever interfere with some of the instruments? I know when they first were building Hanford that was an issue with any materials, is how would, heavy radiation effect the materials. Did it have any effect on instruments, where you guys had to take that into account? Sevier: No, I don’t think so. It did on, I remember, on periscopes in the tank farm. Weisskopf: For looking into tanks? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: So it effected the glass or? Sevier: No the light, we’d have to change out the light bulb, and that was _____ (unclear) Weisskopf: Oh yeah. Do you know a guy named Bill Painter? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: He told me a long story once about being involved in a crew where they had to pull the light thing out. Sevier: Yep, everybody gets a few seconds. Weisskopf: And they all got dosed and they…yeah, yeah. Sevier: Quick turn on the light thing and then get out of there. Weisskopf: So were you involved in that from an instrumentation perspective? Sevier: Yeah, that’s when I was in the tank farm group, he was probably in the same group at the same time. Weisskopf: Okay, and that was just one sort of, not odd, but you know something that came up that you had to deal with. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: And that was just the light bulbs? Sevier: Mm-hmm in that case, yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Sometimes when they were sluicing and they’d hit the periscope with the sluice uh, you know… Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: …and then the bulb would just burn out I guess. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Wow. So, but back at T plant the radiation, you never found yourself having to add a shield or something…. Sevier: No, uh-uh. Weisskopf: …in order to deal with that, there were all already had been proven…I guess…in the previous few years. Did you work, who took care of the instruments in the lab? Sevier: We did. Weisskopf: Oh you did? Sevier: Same groups. We had one man assigned to the lab at T plant and then when he needed help, you know, he would get others from the group. But he worked all the time, especially in the counting room. You know where they were counting samples all the time… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: …that took a lot of time as far as one man, keeping one man busy, so… Weisskopf: Were there any unique instruments in the lab that you wouldn’t have found elsewhere in the building? Sevier: I’m not sure. Weisskopf: Was there like chemistry instruments, like gastromatographs or? Sevier: No, mostly, for the most part they were counting samples, you know. Let’s see, I was trying to think of what, no I can’t think of any… Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: …that would be special. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. What was the deal with the padlocks on the panels? Sevier: You know the jet, so you couldn’t jet from one tank to another without, yeah they had padlocks on the jet controls. They were a wheel-type of thing that… Weisskopf: Simply before you could move from to one tank to another. Sevier: Yeah we didn’t do that, of course the operators did that. Weisskopf: Right. And was that for every tank, was there like dozens of locks all the way down? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Every panel board had three or four. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Depending on, you know that’s how they moved the material was they jetted it from one to another. Weisskopf: Jet being a substitute for a pump right? Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: And that is what you would see in the log book I guess? Is they’d get to a certain point and then they would check something and then say it’s okay to… Sevier: I suppose, again I say we didn’t have, I didn’t have, I wasn’t privy to it… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …looking at the log book so… Weisskopf: But it seems like if the only way they knew that things were working right and it was okay to jet it to the next tank was that the instruments were working right. Sevier: That’s right. Weisskopf: Didn’t that kind of put a lot of pressure on the instrument people or was it just so well running that it wasn’t an issue. Sevier: No, I think because of their experience they would know if something was a little off standard you know. For instance, if you started to jet from one to another and the weight factor didn’t increase in the tank you were jetting into…. Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: ...or say it didn’t decrease in one, they would know right away. Weisskopf: Cause as soon as they had done a few runs they would have a… Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: …routine that they would know what it should be. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Okay. What about in the electrical or the pipe gallery, did you ever go down there for instruments too? Sevier: Oh yeah, Mm-hmm. There were thermocouples there. Weisskopf: Thermocouples down where? Sevier: The wires came through the galleries. Weisskopf: Oh-oh-oh, right. Sevier: For the cell temperatures and stuff. Weisskopf: So you might have to tap into those. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Later on, I was Electrical Inspector and Instrument Inspector for 200 Areas for about 10 years so…of course that’s where I would get a little fuzzy as to what I did when, far as you know… Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: ...cause I would have projects where we’d put in electric things but that was at a later period. Weisskopf: How about adding new instruments? Was there much of that going on? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: I said earlier improvements, but did they just find new ways to measure things or new instruments to use? Sevier: Well no, because the new plants were coming up. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Okay. Here comes REDOX, see, which has automatic control. Weisskopf: So they never had to worry about making huge improvements at T plant because it did what it was supposed to do? Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Okay. So you weren’t working with people to design new instruments to make it work better. Sevier: Not then, later on. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Of course in the, most of the instrument projects later on I had. Where they’d upgraded. But uh…hey did you want, excuse me did you want some coffee? Weisskopf: I don’t think I want any coffee thank you, once sec, I’m going to turn the tape over. SIDE TWO Weisskopf: Okay it’s working again. How about just generalized things like what was the most interesting part of the job when you’re dealing with instruments? Sevier: Well I don’t know, probably getting your calibration to come out, I don’t know. Weisskopf: That was the most satisfying part of the job? Sevier: I think so, right. Weisskopf: Cause you were calibrating all the time? Sevier: Um, part, yeah part of the time you were doing that right. I don’t think all of the time. Weisskopf: And if it didn’t calibrate, that’s where your skill came in? Sevier: Start over and fix it. Weisskopf: Yeah, was that the most difficult part of the job too? Sevier: Um let’s see, the most difficult part of the job was working shift I guess. Weisskopf: Oh, you mean like graveyard? Sevier: Well, on a six day week I think you had, what 12 hours off between one of the shifts. When they had what they call a short change and a long change. Everybody in the plant was working these hours six days a week. Weisskopf: So what was the routine, what was the schedule? Give or take. Sevier: Well, let’s see, as I say between…I’ve forgotten now which one…but between one of the changes maybe when you went from days to the short change or long change, anyway you had only eight hours I think it is on one. Maybe it was more than that. Weisskopf: And you would move up a shift? Sevier: No, no. You rotated. Yeah right, you did rotate. You change shifts which was difficult cause of sleeping problems. Weisskopf: Yep. I think since then they’ve learned to keep people on a shift longer right? Sevier: Right. You can imagine going to sleep say at 8 o’clock in the morning one time, the next time maybe 4 o’clock and 5 o’clock or worse, normally in the evening and this gets to be a little confusing after awhile. Weisskopf: Yeah, right right. How many tools did you carry around with you? Would you do your calibration at the site of the instrument? Sevier: Yes. Weisskopf: You wouldn’t take it out? Okay. Sevier: Well you might, in some cases you might take it back to the shop and work on it. Weisskopf: Well how do you calibrate like a pH meter if its sensor is out in the canyon somewhere? Sevier: Well you do some substitute voltage, or whatever it was. Weisskopf: With a separate wire going to the instrument? Sevier: Mm-hmm. In the case of weight factors and things like that you’d have manometers and in the case of temperature you’d have resistance boxes or voltage, things to measure voltage for the thermocouples. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Or substitute. You might want to substitute the voltages to calibrate. Weisskopf: And on any given day would you go down the line and do only one type of instrument? What was the schedule for the calibrating? Sevier: I’m not sure on routine. You had a routine, preventative maintenance. Weisskopf: But was it based on type of instrument where you’d go down and do all the thermometers this week… Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …or by panel board? Sevier: By panel boards probably. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Course it had to correlate with the operation of the process. Weisskopf: Oh, so it wouldn’t interfere. Sevier: You couldn’t very well take an instrument out of service to calibrate it when you’re operating… Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: …so it had to be coordinated. Weisskopf: And you then had a finite amount of time to get it done. Sevier: Yeah, Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: But it sounded like time pressure wasn’t a big part of the job. Sevier: I don’t think so. Weisskopf: Yeah, you weren’t under the gun… Sevier: No. Weisskopf: …to keep the instruments going. Sevier: No, you didn’t have time study per se, which I never did like with, when I worked in the factory that’s what you had was time study. You’d have, you know, so much time to do a certain operation. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Of course, you get energetic and work hard and get a little ahead then you could coast a little. Weisskopf: Right. How about at the tank farm, when you shifted to that aspect did the job change drastically or just the environment in which you worked? Sevier: Well, when I was in the tank farm we had three things we could powerhouse, tank farms, and weather instruments. So we might depending on the need, we might work on any one of those three phases. Weisskopf: And where were you based? What was your home office? Sevier: Oh we had an office in a, like oh in the change, end of the change…trying to remember…I don’t know, corner of the machine shop we had an office in the 200 Areas, 200 West Area. Weisskopf: And were you doing tank farms for both areas? Sevier: Let’s see, did we do both? I don’t think so. I think we just did the west areas. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Later on we did both though, seems to me. Weisskopf: And were the tanks filling up at that point? How were they dealing with the amount of room they had left? Was that part of your job? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Was that part of somebody’s job as far as… Sevier: That would be process operation. Weisskopf: Yeah, so how they were using or anything else didn’t really effect what you did. Sevier: No, not, uh-uh. Weisskopf: Was there looking for leaks? Was that part of the instrumentation? Sevier: As far as… Weisskopf: What you guys were maintaining. Sevier: …tanks and that? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Yeah, well we had projects where we drilled wells around the tank farm. Weisskopf: Uh-uh. Sevier: Monitoring wells. Weisskopf: And put instruments down them? Sevier: Oh yeah. Weisskopf: Or would they take samples out? Sevier: Well, if you went to the water table they would take samples out but I think the monitoring wells were later on. Weisskopf: And did they have array of instruments down inside the tanks then? Sevier: Let’s see what was in the tanks? I guess there were dip tubes for level and BG and I’d imagine temperature… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: …and let’s see, how did they measure radiation? Probably at a chamber. Weisskopf: Inside? Sevier: Not in a tank itself but maybe in the well down alongside the tank. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. And how often would you have to suit up and be on top of the thanks? Sevier: Not too often. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: They had a control house where the read out instrumentation was and a lot of your work was in the control house or instrument house. Weisskopf: Did you ever have tasks where there was a real short amount of time they allowed you to work on it. Sevier: Well changing light bulbs was the shortest. Weisskopf: And that was because the lights and the camera had been put down inside the tank and were contaminated, not wet with it probably they weren’t in the liquid they were just above it. Sevier: They were above it, but they might be, sometimes they got hit by sluicing cause at that time they were sluicing the tanks for uranium recovery so… Weisskopf: So the sluicing they were doing wasn’t anything unknown, it was just the normal routine for getting the liquids out. Sevier: Right. Weisskopf: Changing a light bulb, not real romantic if you ask me, not too exotic. So what was your job while they were doing that? How were you involved with changing light bulbs or how were you involved with the camera and everything? Sevier: Well not… Weisskopf: You went there anyway, did they call you in for it? Sevier: Yeah, it took a number of people to do this. You know, someone to start it and then the next one would maybe do it, take three or four people to change the bulb. Weisskopf: And was it just a normal bulb or a spot, or? Sevier: It was probably a spot bulb. Weisskopf: But it screwed in light a regular light bulb? Sevier: Right, Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And one person couldn’t take 15-20 seconds to unscrew it? Sevier: No, it would take too long. Weisskopf: Wow. Sevier: So it was really short. Weisskopf: And they called you in simply to help change the light bulbs. Sevier: Well I was part of that group. Weisskopf: Okay. And did you use up that week’s allotment of dose? Sevier: Probably. Weisskopf: Cause Bill was mentioning something about sitting around not being able to do anything for awhile after some job like that. Sevier: Well we always could work out on a cold side though. Weisskopf: Well evidently he didn’t that time. Sevier: Oh. Weisskopf: That was one aspect, one time in his job where they had to sit around for a day waiting for something else to come along but changing light bulbs does not sound real exciting. Sevier: He came along a little bit later then, I think, if I remember right. So maybe they changed their method of operating or something. Weisskopf: Well what he was talking about was exactly the same thing you were… Sevier: Or maybe they gave him more exposure then they gave… Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. Sevier: …in that case they would probably want to keep him from… Weisskopf: Do you remember what your retirement dosage was? Your lifetime dosage? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Not too high. Sevier: I don’t think it was too high. Weisskopf: Being exposed was not a normal part of your job. Sevier: No, because later, see later on I did a lot of…oh what would you call it…office type work. Weisskopf: Right. Sevier: Cause I wrote instruction manuals and I remember I taught a class to the operators, instrument class at PUREX and a fella named Bill _____ (sounds like Schillnik) and I set up a preventative maintenance file for PUREX and then I worked as Project Engineering, so you see…and then being, I was an electrical and instrument inspector, you know, as I say for 10 years and most of that was not hot stuff that was new. You know, new buildings, new so... Weisskopf: Was the instrumentation at REDOX much more exciting than it was at T plant? Sevier: Oh yeah, it was, had automatic control there instead of batch. Weisskopf: So the continuous process was not just monitored by instruments but controlled by it. Sevier: Controlled by it, mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Where at T plant it was all padlocks basically. Sevier: Mm-hmm, yeah batch. Weisskopf: And switch on a centrifuge, switch it off, entirely manually controlled. Sevier: That centrifuge reminds me you know, my daughter was about yeh high, they had an open house and they had set a cell up at U plant with a centrifuge and we went in there. You know we could go in and look down in there and the next day no more kids. So that was, I think we must have went in on a Saturday and then Sunday morning there was no more children, because it was kinda unusual. She had been in plants where, seen inside of a canyon building where a lot of people couldn’t go. Weisskopf: Yeah, you can’t now. Sevier: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, they don’t like hardly anybody in there. That’s funny. What about, the job wasn’t all that hazardous because you weren’t normally going into the canyon or places like that. Sevier: Not for me because a lot of portion of my career out there was kind of office work type thing, clean…clean work, new work. Weisskopf: Were you at T plant when they stopped using it? Sevier: No. Weiskopf: You had left already. Sevier: I went down to REDOX before the building was finished because we were in a Quonset hut between REDOX and U plant or a temporary building anyway and working on the instrument instruction manuals till we went into the building. Weisskopf: Manuals for people to use them or to use ‘em. Sevier: Use them to maintain the instrumentation. Weisskopf: Okay. To maintain them, not for the operators? Sevier: No… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …in that case it was for maintenance. Weisskopf: Yeah, Okay. Sevier: Later on I worked on operating manuals for the operators but that was for PUREX. Weisskopf: And were you doing it from your instrumentation background or just because you understood the process? How did you get involved in writing operator’s manuals? Sevier: Not operator’s manuals, these were instrument manuals to educate the operators. Weisskopf: Oh-oh-oh right. Sevier: Say that you were a new operator and you’d say “well what’s weight factor?” See…. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Well you go right up in the manual with diagrams showing what weight factor is, what it does and so forth or what’s, you know, anything? What’s BG? What’s, anyhow, that’s what the manual is. Weisskopf: And it might be a paragraph or it might be five pages, but it was just to explain the instrument and how it worked. Sevier: You know, like a loose leaf book about that thick. But anyway, just educate the operators to how the instrumentation did work. Weisskopf: Because again instrumentation was the whole thing. It’s like flying an airplane blind. I mean they had to rely on instruments for virtually everything. Sevier: Yeah, because there was no other way. Yeah, right. Weisskopf: Because the only visible part of it was when the crane operator lifted out a bucket, put it in the dissolver… Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: … after that everything else was via instruments. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: And in the operating gallery with all those gage ports down there, how many people would be standing operating them? How many operators would be in there? Sevier: I don’t know, maybe one or two a panel, I don’t know. Weisskopf: Oh, at a panel? Sevier: Or a section. Weisskopf: So there would be quite a few people all the way down at least? Sevier: Yeah, there may be, depending on the process of course. We’re talking about T plant? Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Okay. We might have one or two panels, sections, then again depending on where they were in the process too I guess. Weisskopf: Okay. Did you ever do any instrumentation for the stack gases going out? Any of the monitoring? Sevier: Yeah. I was, was it 291 building? Weisskopf: Right, I think so. Sevier: Yeah. Yeah we had instruments in that building, stack. Weisskopf: And that was, was that a room where you had to suit up and spend a little time? Sevier: No, oh yes you did, to get in there? I think you did, yeah. Right. Going way back. Weisskopf: And they had filters in at that point right? By the time you got there… Sevier: Yeah, prior to my coming here was when they had a problem with the…and then they put in sand filters. But I guess they started, I’m not sure but I think they operated before without sand filters. Weisskopf: Right. I think when they started it up it had no filters at all. Sevier: Right. And then just before I got here they put in the sand filters. Weisskopf: And then later on they went to the silver, I forget what it was called. Sevier: Silver nitrate? Weisskopf: Yeah, was a step up. Sevier: Yeah, that was in the building wasn’t it? Yeah. Weisskopf: Did they have instruments in the filter? Sevier: In the filter? Weisskopf: Yeah, down in the sand? Sevier: I don’t think so. I think what they do is measure differential across the various parts. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: Yeah. Get the drop across the filters. Weisskopf: Coming in and going out? Sevier: Um-hum. Weisskopf: Okay. I haven’t read yet but what did they do after a period time of using that sand? Would they start a new one or? Sevier: I don’t think so. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: They were big. I don’t think they did anything about it. Weisskopf: And a lot of the stuff that went through it was fairly short-lived right? The iodine. Sevier: Iodine…yeah… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …short half-life. Weisskopf: Did you do instrumentation…what am I thinking of? The rough instrumentation that would just be checking motors and heat on bearings and things like that? Was that part of the instrumentation? Sevier: Sometimes. We…usually…most that went to the electricians. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: But we might measure bearings and fan bearings and stuff like that. We had thermocouples on the fans…I remember on the bearings. Weisskopf: Oh, to see if they were getting hot or not. Sevier: Mm-hmm. Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: Maybe I had, I don’t know if they had an inner lock to shut ‘em down, I don’t remember now, on the old ones. Weisskopf: Did you ever get called up in the middle of the night to come out? Sevier: No. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Sevier: And that, again, was because they had shift coverage. I worked shift, but that was during the startup of REDOX. Weisskopf: Okay. Sevier: I didn’t like it. Weisskopf: What did you mean working shift, versus what? What do you call it otherwise? Sevier: Working days. Weisskopf: Oh, shift meaning off or normal hours. Sevier: Yeah right. And again, because it was six to eight weeks…and then let’s see how did…I forget exactly how they work but anyway you work more than a week before you had time off. They had what they call long change and people liked that. I think you had about five days off and people take off on trips. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And like everybody here they came from some other place at that time. We’re not born here. Weisskopf: Nobody was born here, yeah. Sevier: So they often liked it so they could go home or whatever they were going to do. Weisskopf: Yeah. What was the most troublesome instrument to work on do you think? The one that was either the hardest to work on or needed your attention the most. Sevier: I don’t know. Weisskopf: Yeah? Nothing jumps out? Sevier: Might be Ledoux Bells and powerhouse, steam flow meters and that, cause they had mercury in ‘em. Weisskopf: Mm-hmm. Sevier: And you had piping on them where you had to hook your instruments to them. Weisskopf: The mercury is in the pump or in the meter? Sevier: Mercury was a seal in the meter between the two pressures and the Ladoux Bell had a pravulet inside of it which gave you a linear flow instead of a square root output. Weisskopf: Hmm. Sevier: Because you know flow is related to square root, so in a way it extracts square root for you… Weisskopf: Yeah. Sevier: …gives you linear. Weisskopf: Interesting. Sevier: But they were sitting in…because of the big difference in pressure they were in mercury for a seal. Weisskopf: Why would, hmmm. Sevier: The ring balances were…it was actually a ring that had mercury in it, but it moved, rotated on pivots. Weisskopf: Huh. And you said you liked to dabble with trinkets, were you a clock maker or a radio builder at home? Sevier: No. Well I built radios yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah? Yeah, like from scratch? Or from Heathkit or? Sevier: Yeah, Heath kit and junk like that. Weisskopf: Uh-huh. Are they still around by the way? Sevier: I don’t know. The last thing I bought from them was an electric filter for the furnace…. Weisskopf: Hmmm… Sevier: …but that was quite awhile ago. Weisskopf: One thing I bought from them was in 1974 probably, was a windshield wiper variable speed edition. Sevier: Yeah? Weisskopf: I was way ahead of my time. That was the only thing I ever built from them. I think one problem today is they probably cost more, so much more than just buying it off the shelf. Sevier: Yeah, because of foreign inputs these things are real cheap. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. I can just see…. Sevier: I have that little digital camera there real cheap… Weisskopf: Mm-hmm, yeah…yeah. Sevier: …and all kinds of things like that. Weisskopf: Let me turn this off for a minute. [End of Interview] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 51 minutes, 4 seconds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Warren Sevier Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Warren Sevier conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Facc23c7b2edfd56da0af412011f8ef6b.png c1a5bfd981e679ff3c36c7ec02391ac2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Documenting African American Migration, Segregation, and Civil Rights History at Manhattan Project National Historical Park (MAPR), Hanford Subject The topic of the resource African Americans; Oral History Description An account of the resource A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource National Park Service Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 9/1/2017-9/1/2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource For permission to publish or for more information contact the Hanford History Project. Relation A related resource RG2D_4D AACCES Oral History Project Language A language of the resource English Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RG2_8 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Wayne Martin Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: --the beginning and then we’ll get right into it. Does that sound-- Lori Larson: And you don’t have to politely look at me. [LAUGHTER] You look at him the whole time. Wayne Martin: No, I will look at him. Because they always say is, if you’re being interviewed, look at the interviewer. Larson: Very good. Franklin: Right, don’t stare into the camera. Martin: Don’t sit there staring at the camera. Franklin: Yeah, looking into the camera freaks the people out that are doing it later. Because it feels like you’re staring at them, and you’re just like—ooh. Okay. Ready? Larson: Yeah! Franklin: Oh, we’re on. All right. My name is Robert Franklin. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Wayne— Martin: Wayne Martin. Franklin: Wayne Martin, thank you—on April 5, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I’ll be talking with Wayne about his experiences living in the Tri-Cities and working at the Hanford Site. And for the record, can you state and spell your full name for us? Martin: Wayne Martin. W-A-Y-N-E. M-A-R-T-I-N. Franklin: Wayne, when did you first come to the Tri-Cities? Martin: First time I came to Tri-Cities was like 1975. Franklin: Okay. Martin: I came and did work as an intern and then a couple jobs here in the Area. Franklin: And where were you from? Martin: I’m an Army brat. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: So I’m from a lot of places. Franklin: Yeah. Martin: Since birth. Until I was 15 or 16. We moved all the time. A lot of different forts and Germany and the South and just a lot of different places. Franklin: Okay, and what did your father do in the Army? Martin: My dad was a long-range artillery trainer, which is why he moved a lot. He was in the Army for 21 years. So, we ended up—he got to pick his last station, which was Fort Lewis. We had been to Fort Lewis once before. He picked Fort Lewis because he—pretty much, he kinda liked the Northwest. And that’s how we ended up in the state of Washington. Franklin: Wow. When and where were you born? Martin: I was born in Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Although I don’t think we were there very long before we moved. Franklin: Okay. And what year was that? Martin: 1954. Franklin: Did your father serve in the military when it was still segregated? Did you ever ask him about that? Martin: I don’t recall when the military was segregated; although he started, I believe, right around 1950s, if I recall. Franklin: Okay. Martin: He was Korean War. He was in the Korean War. Because he was from New Roads, Louisiana. And as he told me, the only way out of New Roads, Louisiana was to join the service—along with several of his other brothers and friends. Franklin: Where is New Roads, Louisiana? Martin: It’s about 30 miles north of Baton Rouge. Franklin: Okay. Martin: A little, small town. Very small town. Franklin: Have you been there? Martin: Yes, I lived there when I was in fifth and sixth grade. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: My father was set up to do three short-term what they call temporary duty assignments. So he plopped us down with my mother’s family. Because both of them were from New Roads. We stayed in my grandmother’s house when I was—pretty much all of fifth and sixth grade, for as best my memory can be. Franklin: What was it like to—do you remember what year that was? Martin: Okay. Sixth grade, that was mid-‘60s. Franklin: Okay. Martin: To be honest, it was my brothers’ and I first real experience with racism. We had lived in posts, they call them posts. Base for Air Force, post for Army. And we had lived in, like I said, Germany and a lot of different forts. And pretty much our lives were on posts. But going there was different. Franklin: Why do you think the Army was—because certainly there were blacks and whites, all from around the US, but especially from the South, together in the Army. How was the racism different or more apparent off-post? Martin: Well, if you know anything about the service, it’s like forced integration. You are under command. You are—and my father stated that they were subject to certain negative things if they didn’t have a decent one. And when you’re amongst the kids on post, everybody moved a lot, we all interacted with each other for usually a pretty short time. So we didn’t really experience a lot of negative racial tensions. You had a decent mix. I interacted with whites, Asians, and it was a—I always looked at it as a balance, balanced mix. When we went to New Roads, Louisiana—I’ll tell you an experience there, the very first one that really kind of shocked me, is when we were driving into town, I saw a theater. When we got into—moved in with my grandmother, and we were playing. We went to a Catholic school, because one of our parents put us in the Catholic school. We were playing with the kids in the neighborhood. My brother and I, we were used to going to the theater. We always went to a movie on Saturdays on post. So I said, hey, wow, we saw a theater when we came to go to the movies. And they looked at us like, what are you talking about? Well, when we came into town there was a theater down there. And they basically looked at us and said, well, that’s not for us. We don’t get to go to that theater. And I said, well, why not? Well, that’s only for white folks. And that was a shocker for my brother and I. We went home and asked my mom. And they politely explained things to us in a little more detail. So sometimes, I think, as you’re growing up, you kind of get protected a little bit, you know, by your parents. And from that point on, in that town is when I understood a lot more. Because there were a lot other incidences that happened. When we went to Catholic school, it was Catholic school for blacks. The public school was for blacks, and then on the other side of town was for whites. We started to see that difference. So, that was when the real lights came on about racism. That’s a long way around, here answering your question. Franklin: No, no, that’s a wonderful, detailed answer. Were there still signs up when you were there for Whites Only/Coloreds Only for public accommodations or restaurants, drinking fountains or restrooms, that kind of thing? Martin: To be honest, as we lived there—you gotta remember in fifth and sixth grade, we didn’t explore much of the white side of town. Black side of town was where we stayed, played, went to school. So we didn’t really see a lot of those. We saw maybe—I remember seeing maybe one when we went to the grocery store. But it wasn’t a real big part of our experience there. We were informed about certain things. Certain things came to me later on in life that I didn’t recognize at the time. The movie The Help? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Martin: My aunt and several other of my aunts and other ladies in town, I remember them going off, saying they were going to work. And they would be dressed in something similar to what you saw in The Help. But they never really explained to me that they were going to take care of a white family. Later on, after asking questions about it, that’s what they were doing. So, some cases you feel a little bit like, why in the hell didn’t people just explain things to us? I think there’s a lot of protectionism that occurs when you’re younger. So get a little bit from the kids, going to school, but not as much as when, later on in life, you start to see and recognize things. So, like I said, that was an interesting experience. Franklin: Yeah, I would imagine so. So you said you first came here in 1975. Martin: Yes. Franklin: As an intern, and I’m wondering, what was your internship? Martin: It turned out to be more of a record-keeping thing that I did for one of the contractors out here. At that time, I didn’t work for PNNL, which, at that time it was actual Pacific National—no, Pacific Northwest Labs. I did that because a friend of mine, Nestor Mitchell, which is the son of CJ Mitchell, had said, hey, you can come down here and get a summer job and make some dollars. So, that’s how I ended up coming here for the first time. Franklin: How did you know Nestor? Martin: Nestor? He went to school at WSU. Franklin: And is that where you went to school as well? Martin: That’s where I went, Washington State University. Franklin: And what made you choose Washington State University? Martin: When you’re young, you make decisions in odd ways. When I was going through high school, one unfortunate thing that happened was I lost my mother at 17. I was the oldest. She passed away when I was in eleventh grade. And so I became kind of like the surrogate mother. My brother is 32 months younger than me, and then my other brother is ten years younger than me. So he was seven; I was 17. I tell you that, because the whole time I was growing up, I was always told, you’re going to go to college, you should go to college. All my aunts said, it was always evident that you’re smart enough, you should go to college. Well, I always intended to go to college, right? But that event caused me to have to think a little bit. But then when the time came, my dad said, well, you know, I’m not going to be able to afford to send you much. I got a few scholarship things. And I said, well, I wanted to stay in-state, because of the cost. There was really only two options: University of Washington and Washington State. I said, you know, Washington State is just far enough that I don’t have to worry about being too close to home. A friend of mine, Dave Ware, he was a good friend of mine in high school, we both wanted to go and possibly become wildlife biologists and we figured that WSU had a good program. So I picked it, applied, and was accepted and that’s how I ended up there. Franklin: How was campus life at WSU? Was that a big—I know you’ve been an army brat so you moved around a lot, but was that a big change? I understand there were—you would’ve been there in the early ‘70s, right? And that was kind of a period of some activism, turbulence, on campus, and real attempts to create multicultural opportunities for people. Martin: Coming out of high school, there was a lot of issues in high school. I went to Clover Park High School. I remember there being, you might want to call them racial riots, but racial disturbances, racial interactions on campus. I came up in the era where, when we said the national anthem, we said, and justice for some. You know, we used to yell that out really loud. And moved on into WSU. And WSU, there was a very small African American population, very few minorities. You used to get looks and kind of wondered what people might be thinking. But there wasn’t a whole lot of in-your-face as there was when I was in high school. You heard about those, you heard, talked to people, they were experiencing certain deals. But to be honest, when I went to school there, I worked a lot because I couldn’t afford not to. A lot of my time was spent working and going to class and studying. That’s really—I mean. As a matter of fact, Nestor and a couple other of my friends, they didn’t study as much—matter of fact, Nestor ended up leaving after his third year. I think they partied a little bit too hard. But with that, they were talking about experiences they were having. They had a lot more free time than I had. That’s how I heard about most of them. Didn’t have a lot of in-your-face situations. So. It was reasonably comfortable, but, like I said, I probably worked 30, 35 hours a week while I went through school. Franklin: Wow. Martin: Yeah, I had to play a little bit of soccer. Because there was a soccer club there. I learned soccer when I was in Germany. When I came to the United States, there were never any people who played. So they had a club, and I got to play that for maybe about two of the years, two-and-a-half of the years. Interacting with those guys, you interacted with a lot of people from other countries, because that’s who played soccer. So, it was interesting to run into people that were from Italy and Germany, and we went around to different schools and played. So, got a little bit more culture that way than just at the campus. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. How large was the black community when you were there? And was it a close community? Martin: Oh. One, I don’t know how large it was; it was small. And as far as a close community? When you don’t have very many people, then people don’t really come together very much. I don’t really ever see myself as an activist. Heard about things. People called a few meetings and you’d go to them. But I didn’t see a large groundswell. Let’s just put it that way. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: You’d have to go back and maybe get some data on what the size was. Franklin: So what was your major? Martin: When I went there, my intent was to become a wildlife biologist, so I majored in wildlife management. Wildlife management, and along the way, I minored in chemistry. Only because I was taking chemistry classes and kind of liked chemistry. And they said, well, you only need x number of credits and you get a minor. At the time, I thought, oh, okay, that’s nice. I’ll do that. [LAUGHTER] And in the end, it worked out to be advantageous for future things that I did. But wanted to be—me and Dave, we used to go fishing a lot. Franklin: And who, sorry? Martin: David Ware. David was a good friend of mine. White guy. We became pretty good friends. He lived down the street not very far from us. We always used to do stuff together. So, yeah, we’re going to go into the game department. That’s what I originally went for. Didn’t work out that way, but— Franklin: Do you remember which contractor you worked for when you came out here? Martin: Oh. I want to say Westinghouse. But I might be wrong. It’s been a while. Franklin: Yeah, I understand. And you said it was mostly record keeping? Martin: Yeah, it was just some records stuff. It was a lot of paper stuff. Which actually I didn’t care as long as I got a paycheck. Franklin: How did you hear about Hanford and—yeah. And why’d you come out? Martin: Through Nestor, that’s how I heard, for the one summer. How I ended up selecting PNNL? Actually, it was CJ Mitchell. Because what happened was CJ was recruiting on campus at the time— Franklin: At WSU. Martin: At WSU. And I was getting closer to finishing, and Nestor says, you know, look! My dad’s recruiting up there. You might check with him and see if there’s potential for a job down here. Because he had come down, established himself for about a year and had a house. I was looking at game departments, Oregon and Washington. There were some openings, you know. But CJ started talking to me, and said, hey, PNNL has things in the area for wildlife and studies of wildlife. You should check into it. So I did. And to be honest, what ultimately made my decision was the amount of money they were going to pay me, relative to the other amount of money. Again, I looked at the salaries and I looked at that. And then he talked to me about it and he says, hey, there’s a possibility for lots of different things you could do at PNNL. And at that time it was PNL. And I said, huh, okay. And then I put my deal in. What they told me was, we have a department called Water and Land. There’s a job coming in for a project that’s going to start in February—which I was getting done in June. But you have a chemistry background, and what we’ll do is we can give you a job as a chemical technician for that eight months until this job opens and then you can transfer. Well, again, I was looking at how much they were paying me. And I said, well, I can do that. So I accept the job, and it was a rotating shift job. Again, not being very wise or understanding what rotating shifts really do and really do to your body. That was the last time I worked a rotating shift of any kind. That was murder. But that’s what brought me here. Franklin: What is a rotating shift? Martin: Every week you change from days to swing to graveyard. Franklin: Whoof. Martin: Every week. Franklin: Wow. That sounds— Martin: Ha! Franklin: How long would it take your sleep schedule to adjust to your new shift? Martin: I would say it never did. [LAUGHTER] Martin: I was a walking zombie in many cases. It was a forced thing. But you’re young enough that really—that’s really what it was. You’re young enough to adapt. Franklin: Yeah. Martin: The work was—we were actually working out in one of the buildings that had a lot of radiation and high rad fuels. That’s what we did. So the work was active enough. So you weren’t—you never sat anywhere. You were constantly moving. So that’s what I did. Franklin: Do you remember what building you were in? Martin: The 324 Building? Franklin: That sounds— Martin: There’s 325 and there’s 324. I think it was 324. The one that had all the manipulators. The actual project at that time was, they were looking at fuel rods and chopping fuel rods and formulating for glass mixture. That was one of the first vitrification projects. That’s what I worked on. Franklin: Wow. Martin: Yeah. That was my first introduction to radiation. And all of the training you have to have and protective things and everything you have to do. Franklin: Kind of not what you thought you were going to do when you were in school. Martin: Not—no. That first job was not. But, you know, it got me started. So it was good in that sense. Franklin: What were your first impressions when you arrived, down to the— Martin: Here? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: Warm. I like the warm, compared to on the west side and the rain. Since I had a connection through Nestor and his family, so I had that connection and was able to get engaged with their family and all of Nestor’s friends when I first came. So my landing here was pretty soft, as I would say. And I enjoyed it. Got to experience a lot of lab and got to understand more about the lab as I looked around. Because one of the things we were saying is, this one job was going to open. Periodically, when I had time, I would check into that organization, and then read a lot of materials about what the lab did. Coming into it, you know, you had a lot of colorful pamphlets and all this stuff about—well, you know, it’s not untrue, but it highlights things in a way that makes it a lot more attractive than really what was going on. I’ll just put it that way. Franklin: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I understand. We have a lot of that material in our archives, and, yeah, it certainly paints—I mean, it’s all promotional material, right, it paints the rosiest picture that it possibly can without outright lying. Martin: Right. Franklin: Yeah. Where was the first place you stayed after you arrived? Martin: There was a house that Nestor had, and it was on Hawaii Place in Kennewick, not far from the Columbia Center. He already had a house, he had a roommate, they had an extra room. Like I said, it was a soft landing. Franklin: Yeah, no kidding. What was the hardest aspect of life in this area to adjust to? Martin: There wasn’t a lot to do for young folks. We did a lot of traveling outside, going to Seattle, and making contacts with some of my friends from college in other towns. So, like I said, there wasn’t a lot. I got used to a lot of different things in this area with Nestor and his family. Enjoying the water. Nestor and I, we got boats and played around on the water. I already had a passion for outdoors. Fishing. Got a little bit more into hunting. David introduced me to hunting when I was in high school, so I got to do a bit more hunting. So I ended up meeting people who, after being here about a year or so—met a friend, Doug Usher, he was really into outdoor activities. So I made connections pretty easy. I think, to be honest, as I grew up, with us moving as much as we did, you learn to make friends or make relations pretty fast. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Martin: I would say that that’s a characteristic that I’ve acquired, and I think it came from moving a lot and then interacting with people. You make friends quick. Otherwise, you’re a loner. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Right, right. Martin: I think that that helped me in connecting with people here. A wide variety of folks. So, like I said, it was a pretty soft landing. From there, I mean, I never had any intentions—I didn’t think of—some people come and say, well, shoot, I’m staying here a couple years and then I’m off to something different. Didn’t really come with that intent. I was just coming off of being in college, being poor, or what I considered poor, most of the time. Actually had learned about food stamps when I was in college. Some guy says, for as much as you make and stuff, you should check into food stamps. That wasn’t until—because I went five years—wasn’t until, I was in my, I think my fourth year that I found out that I could get food stamps. That helped out a lot. But learning, coming out of that kind of environment, and coming to an established—and having a decent salary. Again, all of that was a big leap for me. And I use that term “soft landing,” because some people have hard—get hardships coming out, with very difficult to find a job, very difficult to make a connection into a town, right? I didn’t really have those. Franklin: How long did you work the analytical chemistry job? Martin: That was eight months. Franklin: Okay. And then what did you do after that? Martin: Then I got into the Water and Land group. What you find out when you want to go into wildlife, wildlife management and wildlife biology, you really don’t do a lot of studying of animals. What you study is habitat. Because if you want to control the population of a particular species, then you control their habitat. Control how much food they have, how much hiding cover they have, how much water accessibility they have. So I had a lot of soils. Soils, and botany. And by going into Water and Land, I got hooked up with a group that did soil science. That soil science, we looked at a lot of different aspects of soil. But what connected me, initially, was I got into waste and waste soils. One of the very first big projects was Uranium Mill Tailings Remediation project, where they were looking at these big waste sites from the mining of uranium. I had just come out of this group that was a lot of radiological, so I ended up learning a lot about radiation. So it was kind of the perfect project. But one thing you have to understand about PNNL: it’s all about projects. You get the work on projects. If you don’t have a project, you don’t have a job. So whatever projects needed people, you worked on that. If you had a set of skills that would help that—so, by having a lab background, and then having a background in understanding environments, it was kind of a little bit of a match. And that’s where I got connected into waste management. That’s kind of what kicked off the first beginnings of what I consider the primary elements of my long-term career. Franklin: Which was around waste management? Martin: Yes, around waste management. And then it ended up focusing on geochemistry. Franklin: What is geochemistry? Martin: Geology, chemistry. So the chemistry of the earth. So, understanding the interaction of water, soils and how they interact. How once you put waste in the ground, it transports, subsurface transport. If you look at the things I’ve told you that I had in my background, they all kind of came together in that field. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. Martin: Yeah. Franklin: So you had mentioned earlier about your soft landing on the Tri-Cities and this connection with the Mitchell family who was a real—one of the big families in the area that people remember. CJ was a very public-spirited person. How would you describe life in the community? What did you do in your spare time? Do you remember any particular community events? Martin: There were different types of events, but there wasn’t—you know, first off, the black population was not that large. I would say a couple percent. I don’t believe it has changed much over the years. I don’t follow the population numbers. I did follow some of the population—or, employment numbers within PNNL over time. But we created a lot of our own events, to be honest. Franklin: Such as? Martin: Such—well, we’d have potlucks and we’d have—oh, I would say, I know that there were some black churches that would throw some events and so I would go to those. Franklin: In Pasco? Martin: In Pasco. Franklin: Yeah. Martin: And I got to meet a number of other black families. The Sparks family, which is a pretty good-sized family here. I’m trying to think of the other names. It started with a B. I can’t remember the name of the family right now but maybe it’ll come to me. So that’s how I got to meet individuals in the community. They are the ones that explained to me a lot of the history. Or their experience. And about the different cities. Matter of fact, they’re the ones where I had heard about what they called the sundown law in Kennewick. He goes, man, you realize back not that long ago, this is where blacks had to be back across the green bridge. At that time it was a green bridge. Any person that was in Kennewick at the time had to be back in Pasco. Of course, not even sure if that law is still on the books. You know how sometimes laws are still in the books but just not enforced? I’m not sure if that law ever got officially removed, how’s that? Now, take that for what it is. I don’t know. But they explained to me these things. So they asked, well, where are you going to live? And I said, well, I was living in Kennewick with Nestor. And he says, yeah, yeah, we know the Mitchells. Many of the Mitchells lived in Richland. And I got to know a lot of his brothers, and they have one sister. Cameron actually came up and was at WSU for a little while, his younger brother, while I was finishing up. So that’s how I ended up meeting and going to different events. Like I said, there wasn’t a lot to do here. You had to make a lot of your own activities. We’d spend a lot of time going to Seattle or Portland, up to Spokane, for different reasons. To be honest, a lot of them for what we might call partying. [LAUGHTER] I didn’t experience a lot of racial deals. Oh, every once in a while, you’d hear somebody call a name out of a passing car. And you’d look at the car and then they’d be gone. But I didn’t really experience a lot of in-your-face—I think I might’ve said that before—here. Although others have. It could’ve been who I was around. Could’ve been just, I didn’t go to certain facilities or—it was difficult to find, getting your hair cut. Another reason I had to go to Pasco, because you would find folks. I found a young woman who everybody knew. Carmen Will was her name. Franklin: Was it difficult in that you weren’t welcome there, or a white barber would refuse to cut black hair, or was it just, you were more comfortable in east Pasco? Martin: Not necessarily—well, not necessarily east Pasco, but in Pasco. Franklin: Pasco. Martin: Once you talk to folks, you would say, okay, it is a little more comfortable in Pasco, there were more black faces in Pasco. I got introduced to—because you get your hair cut—look, I mean, you’re not going to go to a white barber. Not initially. You’re going to ask, and say, who cuts, man? And they tell you. You’d go to that barber. There was a black barber in Pasco. And then later on, I got introduced to Carmen. Carmen, she was in several different spots and she always did a good job. She also knew a lot was going on. Franklin: How so? Martin: Oh. She’d say, well, did you hear about such-and-such and what happened to her at work? There were some incidences of people, racial situations, and some of the contractors. Interesting, you said something about union, people that you might have interviewed? Some of the black individuals who were in unions, they got a harder reaction and a lot more negative reaction than I did within PNNL. Now, I would call white collar/blue collar. I think the blue collar situation, a lot of times, those guys got in-your-faced, and had to react with people who were a little more vocal with their opinions. They also experienced lack of opportunities within their jobs, promotion, and we ended up talking about that. I can’t say that I had a lot of that in PNL. Oh, I mean, I would talk to a few other black individuals there and they would say, yeah, well, you know, to get a job at such-and-such, you got to know x, a person. And some of the black individuals didn’t see promotions like they thought they should’ve seen within PNNL. The number of people, of black individuals, within PNNL was very small. When I looked at the numbers, I never saw more than—it was less than a hundred. As a matter of fact, I remember always seeing the number floating between 50 and 75, and the number of staff at PNNL increased from like 2,800 to 4,500-ish that I recall, watching those numbers. And that number of black individuals stayed very low. There seemed to be people attempting, as I would say, to bring about diversity. The Hispanic population increased. But of course, when you—what you have to recognize with the national laboratory: it doesn’t recruit locally. So it doesn’t have to reflect the local demographics. It has to reflect the national demographics, as they always say. So because they recruited nationally, internationally. Which tend to make sense. But there are some jobs, hate to say it, you don’t need to be international to do. Janitorial, let’s pick. They have all those types of job. Welders. Some people in the bargaining units, you’d have to talk to a number of them. So back to the original deal, I didn’t experience as much of it as I heard about people who were in other contractors on the site, out on Site. And I think you’ll have to compare my knowledge or experience or anecdotal information with others who may have truly experienced it. Franklin: Sure. You’ve mentioned the barbershop earlier. Was that a real kind of locus of the community—was the one of the major kind of meeting points or locus for the black community in the area? Martin: Absolutely. [LAUGHTER] Absolutely. You’d go in there, and you would get to hear about a lot of things. I always would say, you know—I have a scientific—my background’s in science. I’m very careful about taking a broad input of information and then deciding what’s real and what’s not. So, with that said, you’d hear of a story. So I’d go and check with somebody else, and go, what did you hear what happened? And they’d have a little bit different twist on what happened. I’ve also been a manager for a long time. And not something necessarily racial, but when an incident happens, it’s not always as it was first initially reported. You have to go gather—so, the same thing goes for things that are race-based. Go and really find out what really happened. But more often than not, things did happen. Then, as a black individual in the community, I’m going to be careful. And if somebody tells you there’s a certain place that you maybe shouldn’t go, then you don’t. Franklin: Yeah. Did you attend church? Martin: No, to be honest. I wasn’t a regular—I was raised Catholic. So I went to Catholic school, went to catechism, my brother went to Catholic school. So, yeah, we always went to Catholic church. But once I got into college, I just stopped. Just wasn’t a major goal of mine. It wasn’t—so I never did. Franklin: Sure, sure. No, no. Martin: So it wasn’t until later on, after being married, I started going to a more interdenominational church. Because I just—I am a Christian, I am faithful in that sense. But I’m not sure what your life is like, but you tend to flow the way everyone you’re around flows. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Oh, yeah, no, absolutely no judgment. I don’t go to church. So I understand completely. But I was forced to go as a kid, and so was my wife. She went to Catholic school all twelve years. And you know, you just kind of, yeah, it can have the opposite effect, when you’re an adult. But I was going to ask because—I ask that question because it’s my understanding from a lot of these interviews and research that the African American churches in Pasco played a large role in the community. And you had kind of mentioned that you would go to events at a couple of them. So I was just going to ask, for you or what you saw, what role did church play in the African American community in the Tri-Cities? Martin: For many blacks, it was the bedrock for them. It is where they could go and actually feel comfortable. To go and commiserate with individuals who are of their same upbringing. Many that may have come from the South, which a lot of them did and their families did, the church was a central point for the African American community. It is, should be, and well-recognized, and that still exists today. That is how it was in Pasco. I didn’t find myself attracted going to doing that. It just wasn’t in my—wasn’t something I really wanted to do. But I knew a lot of black individuals that did. For them, it made a big difference. Black churches help people cope, okay, with what was happening around them. It was a central point for discussion; it was a central point for a lot of families and helping encouraging a lot of the youngsters make those next steps. So, yeah, I knew that—Morning Star is one of the churches that probably—I would say it’s probably the biggest one, but I’m not sure. So I heard a lot about them. The Mitchells, they went, if I remember—they went to the Baptist church. Franklin: New Hope. Martin: Yeah, yeah. But they didn’t corral—Nestor never went. [LAUGHTER] We never really went that direction. Franklin: Right, I mean, yeah. Yeah, no it’s— Martin: So that’s about as much as I know about the churches. Franklin: Okay. Martin: And with time and off time—because I’ve been here 40 years—I’ve always heard about them interacting with people who had—and gone to some of their gospel events, gospel singing events. I’ll tell you, they’re always extremely welcoming, open arms, in those churches. There’s no doubt about that. Franklin: Hmm, that’s good to know. We’ve been planning to do some outreach to the churches and talk to some of the folks there and interview—maybe hopefully interview the pastors about their roles in the black community. Martin: That would be a very good thing to do. Franklin: Yeah, thank you. Well, it was not our original idea. It was the idea of AACCES and Tanya and Vanessa. Do you recall any family or community activities, events or traditions, including food, that people brought with them from the places they came from? Martin: Well. Soul food, always the case with black individuals. But to be honest, the thing that I learned here, and the food that I learned here that I ended up liking is Mexican food. I mean, in Pullman there wasn’t a lot of it. So you ate fricking dorm food. Franklin: Still isn’t any good Mexican food in Pullman. Martin: Or you cooked your own. But here, it was everywhere. And it was inexpensive. And a taste that I wasn’t familiar with. I mean, we only lived in one fort, Fort Huachuca, and I think that was in Arizona, Fort Huachuca, and I don’t even remember a lot of it then. So I wasn’t exposed to it that much. But coming here, and then you learned a lot about Hispanic food. And damn if that stuff ain’t good. Franklin: Yes, it is. Martin: But people did bring a lot of their traditional Southern food. I knew how to cook a lot, myself. My mother was very good at teaching us how to cook. Franklin: Did she teach you how to cook soul food-type stuff? Martin: Yes. As I look back on what my mom did for us, or did for me, probably not knowing she was going to pass early: she taught us how to iron our clothes, wash our clothes, taught us how to cook. She was a stay-at-home mom, because we moved all the time. And in the end, that actually worked out extremely well for us. For me, after she passed, because then I had to do all that. Because my dad was still in the service, so he had to go. So I was the one that ended up taking care of a lot of that. But as I moved on as a young man, I knew how to take care of myself. Which was—that’s not something I saw in a lot of other young people. I don’t want to say both female and male, but most of the males, they didn’t know how to hardly do any of that. But my mom taught— When I lived in the South, you got a real good understanding. And of course we visited our aunts and uncles. There was a migration from New Roads to LA. So I have a lot of relatives that live in LA. Whenever you go to their houses, pfft, they’d always have food cooking, and it’ll always be Southern-type cooking. So I ended up learning how to do it myself. Even today, I mean, like, I still eat grits. You have to actually—you’re not going to go to a restaurant around here and find grits. If you do, you found something interesting. I bring up that one food, because that’s something from the South. So here in the Tri-Cities, not a lot. There’s a couple of soul food places now. But you go to some families, you know, they would have—some black families, and you’d have a meal other than what I cook for myself. So, again, it’s kind of odd that the one food that really was new to me was Hispanic cuisines. I still, like I said, today, I love it. I go to taco wagons. You know. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: I know, me too, it was a real pleasant—I grew up in Alaska and lived in Hawaii. Martin: Oooh, Alaska. Franklin: Not really food meccas. Besides, you know, kind of the normal Chinese food and the normal American food. So moving here was—yeah, the variety and abundance of Mexican food—I’ve always loved Mexican food and it’s pretty legit here. You can get—as legit as you want to go. Martin: Yes, you can. Franklin: Which is great. What about community activities or events? Things like Juneteenth or—did you attend any of those? Martin: Yeah, I probably—for Juneteenth, I think over the years, I think I’ve gone to about a half a dozen. Franklin: Why is that celebration so important to the African American community? Martin: As you look at past history, there was an event that most of the black community would lean toward. A lot of things that are—people will ask the question, why do you have events like that that are separate from the white community? Not only that, but anything with having to do with black history. I’ve read a lot of books on black history. Our society, as I was growing up and going to school, they never highlighted much of the black history. Which actually, as I grew, really upset me, that I didn’t know these things. It wasn’t in the books. So, Juneteenth is just one of the events. They wrap the beauty pageant around that particular event, because it was an event which helped the changing of recognition of slavery and so forth. But all of the other aspects of black history and highlighting it were so that’s not forgotten. And here in the Tri-Cities, there wasn’t a lot of events. I can’t remember when Black History Month was actually established. Sad that I don’t know the actual dates. But when that thing happened—I know I did a lot more within PNNL as time went on to lift the people’s consciousness around what the black experience and the black history has done for America. People will question, why should there be something separate for you? And I always say to them, because if we didn’t do it, you may not ever really know. So, we want you to know that a bedrock of the United States was built on the backs of blacks. People need to recognize that. Not only white individuals or Hispanic individuals, but black individuals. I mean, some black individuals really don’t know the history. If they didn’t go to college and get exposure, they’re going to get what’s ever fed to them. Without highlighting it, and they get to see certain things, they might not have known. I just went to the Smithsonian African American Museum of History. I’ve now gone twice. Anybody I say, you need to go, and you need to walk through that a couple of times to understand the lineage there. I say all of that, because when an event happens here in town, you need to go and understand it. And I mean any person should go to it and understand some of the aspects of it. So Juneteenth, back to the original question, is just one other way to highlight an event in black history. Some people say, well, why do you have one just for black girls? Well, in the Tri-Cities, I’m not sure many black girls would make it in the Miss Tri-Cities Pageant, you know? Was there something in that pageant that made it so that black individuals wouldn’t do very well in that pageant? I don’t really say that I would go there, because I don’t know. I would be making a falsehood. But with that event, it was more about the Juneteenth event and black individuals being highlighted for their experience and their talents associated with that event. Hopefully—you’re going to always get your naysayers and negative folks about just about anything. But it’s important to have those. The people who have done that—the ones that have also supported the awards: one for African American kids, for educational awards; there’s also HAAP, the Hispanic Academic Achievement program; there’s also the African American Achievement Program, to bring funds to create scholarships for African Americans and for Hispanics. And people will say, well, why just for them? And I’ll keep going back to, there’s sometimes a competition that they don’t win in the big scheme of things, if you just pool everybody in one set, you don’t see the attention given to the minorities that are there. And trying to create some things and give advantages to some of the folks who don’t get those. But if certain people were to see my interview, they would say, well, we’ve heard that before. They just don’t want to agree. But you know, we can agree to disagree. Franklin: Certainly. In what ways were opportunities limited because of segregation or racism? Martin: Here, in the Tri-Cities? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: During my time here? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: Because that’s the only thing I can— Franklin: That’s fine. Or were they? Did you see anything? Martin: I would say that there has been some, because I would always question why haven’t we seen more—and this was within the lab—why haven’t we seen more black individuals in interviews? It came from—to be honest, where I first got my eyes opened up was in the late—the mid-‘80s. Dr. Wiley, I’m sure some people have brought up that gentleman’s name. He is the one who—he became my mentor. He exposed me to a lot of what was possibly going on within the laboratory that he wanted to bring about change. So I can only speak to what I experienced in the lab. Outside the lab, it’s what people would say that happened that you would hear. I already kind of covered that; you’d hear different things. But in the lab, there were situations where you could see that there was something not quite right. As I said, I told you the numbers. Why is that? So, he helped me ask questions and improve my understanding of what he saw during his time. Now, I remember he came from the South. He went to Tougaloo. It’s a historically black college. As a matter of fact, that was one of the very first things he hooked me up into, is doing a lot of things with the National Urban League and going around the country interacting with historically black colleges. Because I will say that, you know, I go to a lot of these conferences and give papers and whatever. I rarely see a black individual. Rarely. He went through and explained to me why we were not seeing a lot in some of the things around. So therefore that translates into not seeing a lot of them coming through our interview process. Because they aren’t at those, right? It took a long time for me to see and understand, and interfacing with a lot of historically black colleges. And that particular case was to let them know that science was an option. But in the lab, there has been certain situations that occur. You know, like I said, a lot of things are not blatant or just obvious. You kind of have to dig a little to understand why you’re seeing what you’re seeing. Bill helped me to understand a lot of that. And I became a lot more proactive within the lab to bring about some of the changes and give some individuals interview—in the interview process. So, again, I mean, nothing’s—with time, as time changes, you have to understand that things are slow. Sometimes you aren’t—I had a job. So I wasn’t spending a whole lot of time investigating that kind of thing. I’m mostly trying to keep my credentials up and doing what’s necessary, both in the lab and outside the lab. But it took me a little bit, but I got a lot more active in understanding what’s going on within the lab and encouraging and getting more diversity within the lab and did a lot more things, helping managers, helping our internal human resources department engage. Franklin: How would you describe your relationships with your coworkers and your supervisors and management when you were at the lab? Martin: Actually, I had a very good technical mentor. His name was Jeff Czerny, white male, who took me under his wing and taught me a lot and gave me a lot of opportunity. Engaging with most folks, I think—and this is my own perception is—I have a general rule of saying, the best thing you can do is perform. Bill Wiley said, you know, you have to have the credentials. Without the credentials, they don’t even really let you in the door. And then perform. So I had two paths I started off on. One, getting credentials, and the other, performing in my workspace. People picked me up on a lot of projects, because I had a performance rep, a very good performance rep. Once you get that and people get comfortable with that, they put you on their project, they’re going to get what they paid for. The credential route was not something—I’ll tell you, honestly, no fricking way was I going back to college. [LAUGHTER] My first experience in college, five years, long, drawn out. And I figured, that was enough. I should get real, get a good paycheck, and I should be able to launch, right? Well, Dr. Wiley said, you are sadly—it’s sad that you have that perception, because it’s not going to work. Long story short, I went back and did the master’s thing. Did that, took me four years. During that four years, I had gotten married, had a couple kids— Franklin: What was your master’s degree in? Martin: Radiological sciences, the study of radiation. Franklin: When did Dr. Wiley come to the lab? Martin: Ooh! Franklin: Was he there when you started? Martin: Oh, yeah. He was—he was in the ranks. I want to say he came there in the late ‘60s. Franklin: Okay, okay. How long—was he manager of the lab when you started? Martin: When I first interacted with him on a one-to-one basis, he had become the lab director. Franklin: Okay. Director, sorry. Martin: Yes, became the lab director. And I knew of him, in the lab. But I didn’t have a lot of—his area was biochemistry, microbiology. The lab is set up around projects. And if the project subjects don’t overlap, you don’t interface with folks. So I knew of him. But, like I said, my relationship with him started in the mid-‘80s. Yeah. So. Franklin: How were you treated on the job by your coworkers and supervisors? Martin: Well. I didn’t really—again, didn’t really experience a lot of negative. If they held some kind of negative feelings, they didn’t make it obviously known. And so I got along well with folks. Franklin: What kinds of interactions did you have with coworkers and supervisors outside of work? Martin: Not a lot. Pretty much focused on work with them. I had a couple of people who I met on the job that became really good friends. Doug Sherwood and Brian Opitz. We became good friends, two white males. That part, I did get a couple of folks that I knew and interacted a lot with. Then later on, there was a few—as time went on, I picked up a few more that I did a few things outside. But for both the professional folks, not a lot. Franklin: Could you describe the working conditions? Martin: In what way? Franklin: When you were at the lab, like, kind of what environments did you work in? Martin: I was primarily—I’m an experimentalist. So, when you say environments—environment is a big term. So I don’t know if you meant the environment—working environment, physically in a lab, doing your things, or the relational environment. Which one do you want? Franklin: Both. Martin: Relational, I only really focused on a few people who I felt comfortable with that I felt were actually giving me good scientific tutelage. And Jeff Czerny was one, that’s for dang sure. A couple other scientists, Ken Krupke, he was kind of a hardnose. I’m trying to think. Oh, I can’t remember the one guy’s name now. There were a couple other scientists who—Don Rai, he was another—he was an east Indian background. They were helpful. They were—and I think a lot of it came from is that—I don’t give up very well. And they could see it. And no matter what, I kept pushing them, pushing them. And I said, I don’t understand this. I need to understand this. What book do you got? Because I’m used to books; give me a book. And I’d come back with a lot of questions. I think if you really showed initiative and really wanted to, you got a very good reception from the science community. Again, once given a task, and you perform for them, they got what they wanted, they came back, they kept coming back. And that was how things migrated into me being involved a lot more. So the tutelage part, the working with folks, the experimental side, I learned a lot about safety. Working with rad—radioactive materials—you had to be very diligent about what you touched, how you dressed, you know, how you handled—it’s different than working in a non-rad. So operationally and safety-wise, that built up a strong working skillset that not many people had. I never had contamination issues. I always got what they wanted in a reasonable time. And then I was building up the academic part, so I made a very good connection between the two. So when they got stuff from me, it had already been thought-through. I think those two environments—I learned a lot. I got a lot of—so, me, as one person in there, I was okay. Others didn’t experience—of course, again, there wasn’t a lot of black individuals. Very few. A few Hispanics, but mostly white individuals, to be honest. And I think part of my—again, if you go back to my background, I was around white people a lot. So, I wasn’t uncomfortable; it wasn’t an issue for me to walk in a room and start talking to them. Which I think some of them, initially are not too friendly. Franklin: Some of the white individuals? Martin: Yes. They not quite knew how to react. But if I just focused on work, then there wasn’t a whole lot issues; I just didn’t talk about stuff about outside of work. Then they’re okay. You learn. Franklin: Were there any people that you were able to talk to about stuff outside of work? Have kind of more— Martin: Yeah, Doug and Brian. We talked a little bit about—well, the racial things I experienced, they didn’t see a lot of it. But Doug had a really good friend, Mark Francis, a black individual. Actually, ironically, he was his first roommate and he actually went to Whitworth and I played soccer against him, against Mark. Then we all became roommates. So Mark was from, original background, from Trinidad but grew up in New York and was out here. Franklin: Wow. Martin: Believe me, he—yeah, man. Wasn’t good, I mean, it wasn’t the greatest thing going to Whitworth. And Doug went to Whitman in Walla Walla. Where there’s hardly any blacks in school there. Franklin: Yeah, I’d imagine. Martin: But Doug has the right kind of personality. And Mark and I, we would talk and he would tell me the things he experienced. So, as roommates, we would hear and see—and then you just learn where to go, where not to go, who to talk to, who not to talk to. But as far as inside work, I had a few relationships that came out of it. But, again, there’s other people—hopefully you’ll get some other individuals that may have been at PNNL that can tell you what they experienced. I’m sure CJ must’ve said something. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned where to go and where not to go. That’s something that comes out in a lot of interviews. That’s kind of, it passes through the vine and it’s informal. Do you have any examples of where were places to go and where were places that you avoided? Martin: There were some clubs. You didn’t want to go out to the smaller towns: Finley, Burbank, Benton City. Do your shopping in town. You never know what you’re going to get if you go out there. They didn’t speak a lot about Walla Walla. They said, well, Walla Walla’s—you know, there’s not much for you out there. So I wouldn’t go. Now, that may give Walla Walla a bad rap, but I’m going to go by what people who’ve been living here tell me. If I don’t really need to go, I didn’t go. There were certain restaurants they would say, well, you might not get as good service there as if you went to this one over here. So I’m going to try to stay away from the names so much, but that’s how— Franklin: No, that’s fine. I was just kind of trying to— Martin: Yeah, that is how you end up picking. It’s based on what people—you’ve got to put some trust in the people you’re meeting, that they’re telling you the truth. And why go test it? [LAUGHTER] Not when there’s other choices. Franklin: Sure. Right, right. Excellent. Back to working, what were the most difficult aspects of your job? Martin: My career at PNNL was like 36 years, so you could split it into 17 and 17 years. The first part of my upbringing was actually being a researcher. The second was becoming a manager. I’ve told you a bit about the research side. I wasn’t—I went into management kicking and screaming. Franklin: As many do. Martin: [LAUGHTER] How they wanted and tried to encourage me to go into management, they said, look, you’ve got a good reputation, you have people skills, you have good enough technical foundation that you could lead technical people. I said, is that what it takes? I mean, the reason I say that is because it’s the management side of my work experience that was more difficult, because you are interacting with people—you’re now managing folks who, predominantly white individuals, a few females, and you’re dealing with big kids. Franklin: Sorry. [LAUGHTER] No, it’s funny because it’s true. Martin: Well, yeah. So, you transition out of this environment where you controlled a lot of stuff—your experiments, your writing. And then over here, you’re trying to get these folks to understand what they need to do in order to succeed at the lab. Being in management was difficult. Franklin: Why’d you do it for so long? Martin: [SIGH] As you leave the technical world, you—in order to be good, technically, you have to be actively and building all the time. Once you leave it and you go out of that realm, you’ve now left it behind, and to go back is not easy. So that’s first and foremost. I like challenges. And there’s challenges in the management side. Back to Dr. Wiley again, before I really kind of left the technical world—he encouraged me to get my master’s. He strongly encouraged me to get my PhD. And in doing that, it helped me technically as I did it. But then he said, now you have the credentials, because in order to really move forward in this, he said—he told me, I knew I wasn’t going to become a Nobel laureate. I wanted to accomplish something. He was a very visionary kind of guy. He says, I was going to do that on the management side. His experience in the management area, he said, you know, you could do this, follow that track. So he encouraged me to go that route. And, doing that, once you get into it—if you want challenges, you take the challenge and you move forward and you overcome certain things. So by doing that, I got exposed to a lot different world in the area of technology and research and development. And one thing led to the next. And you then start to somewhat enjoy it. In management, what you primarily deal with are the bad actors and bad incidences, we’ll call them. You don’t get to focus a lot on the good. You allow that to happen, you make sure that the environment that that is happening in stays safe, encouraging positive. And then you deal with, when there’s a safety issue or there’s a behavioral issue, you learn to deal with it. An interesting conversation I had when I first became a manager, there was a lab director—this is after Bill Wiley had passed, and I’d done a few management deals—but Bill Madia came in as the lab director, and there was going to be some opportunities. He brought me in and we talked, and I’ll never forget this conversation. He goes, yeah, you’ve taken statistics, haven’t you? And I go, yeah. Yeah, I’ve done quite a bit of statistical stuff. He says, well, this laboratory’s made up of, it’s a subpopulation of a population. Oh, yeah, well, that makes sense, yeah. He goes, so, all the stuff that happens out in the population, it’s the same things that happen inside this lab with the same people. So the things you might find and what you might need to do is, your number one job is to protect the laboratory. You’re a manager now. You must protect the lab. And you will find there are people that steal, there are people who are sexist, there are people who—I mean, he went down through the list of the bad stuff that happens out in the population. Some of those same people working here. I go, like, uh, yeah? Your job is to make sure you understand those individuals. And if they exist, and if they’re bringing about negative things that happen in the laboratory, you need to find those out. People that drink on the job. Now, you know, let’s say I was relatively young, okay, and you hear this, and you’re like, whoa, what did I get into?! That opened my eyes up to what my job was. And people who will try to cut corners, people who are not going to do the right things from a safety point of view. That made me think so much differently about how I managed, and it really helped me. Because I did find certain situations that were happening. You can see certain behaviors. I didn’t take psychology or sociology. I never took management classes, okay? You learn by doing. I got to go to some Sloan management deals and they had some management training deals. But you learn—as I said, I learned a lot on the technical side, I just took those same skills and learned more about how to be a manager. And as time went on, I learned how to enjoy. So that’s it in a nutshell, really. I stayed into it because I kept getting other opportunities. Could’ve left and gone to other sites and had job offers at other places. But I tended to stay within PNNL, because I felt comfortable in the area and as well as my family too. Franklin: How did your racial background figure into your work experiences? Martin: My racial background? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: Being black and being in there? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: I had several assistants. Here’s a thing, a game I used to play with my assistant. I was a hiring manager. My tonation and my ability to speak and whatever, I would have conversations with some individuals on the phone, and I don’t think they knew I was black, okay? Unless they—maybe back in certain times, they didn’t have Google. Google—[inaudible] some of them didn’t. So I told my secretary, okay, when this guy comes in, I want you to watch his expression when he walks in and I’m in the office and he walks to the door and sees me. And my secretary, white, she’s like, oh, okay. So she would walk him in and then she would look at him. And their first is they stop. And you know right then, they weren’t expecting me. Now, I don’t want to make it sound like that’s a bad thing. But that shows you—the person comes in, and then we sit down and we talk, and we talk through the job. What do they want to—what is it they’re—I’m going to talk to them just like I talk to anybody else; it doesn’t matter what color you are. And I think they tend to get somewhat of a comfort. But, you know? Being black in a predominantly white institution, I mean not just PNNL—the institution of science. It’s different. I learned early on that you must be aware as best you can when someone’s for you and when they’re not. You can make that measure, and I had to do that on a number of occasions. But being a hiring manager and being involved in that kind of stuff, you want to be fair. Some individuals would come to me—black individuals, who were experiencing—totally not even in my department, but wanting to know if there was anything I could do for them. In some cases, you have to be careful about where you go out and what questions you ask, about other managers. But I had to do that for some individuals, and I was willing to. But it was a challenge. I enjoyed it, for the most part. Franklin: Yeah. In what ways did the security and/or secrecy at Hanford impact your work or daily life? Martin: Oh, well, I had the highest clearance you could have. It’s called Sensitive Compartmented Information. It’s like Top Secret in the Army. So I did a lot of classified work. In limited areas, in what they call a SCIF, which is Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility, which is the next level. Quite impactful. I’ll tell you in the trainings, there’s a phrase I heard: for life. You had to keep this information that’s going to be provided to you confidential and secret for life. [LAUGHTER] I was like, whoa. So when you are in that kind of environment and being shared that kind of information, you learn to be careful about your speech, what you talk about, what you don’t talk about. Very enlightening. You only—it’s a thing called need-to-know. So you’re only privy to what you needed. Franklin: Right. Martin: Okay, so you weren’t exposed to everything. But for what you were exposed to, you understood why it was sensitive. It has a fundamental impact on how you viewed the sharing of information. Absolutely. And you know what, as Americans, tell Americans, there’s some stuff you just don’t need to know. Everybody thinks, everything should be free and out there and everybody should know everything. No. And that’s as much as I say! [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Okay. All right then. What did you know or learn about the prior history of African American workers at Hanford? Martin: Only through what people told me. I mean, I learned a lot in the article you sent that I didn’t know. I didn’t know the living conditions. I knew they were relegated to east Pasco. But that one picture in there reminded me of Louisiana. Franklin: The one of— Martin: The shacks. Franklin: The shacks, yeah. Martin: The shacks. That’s the way it was in Louisiana. And I didn’t realize that it existed that way here in Pasco. Franklin: From your perspective, what were their most important contributions in the areas of work, community life and civil rights? Martin: Here? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: I would say that the individuals who came here were courageous, were the ones who took a lot of the brunt of racism. As the article put it, Jim Crowism. The movement from the South to the North was no different than the move from the South to Chicago and the movement to here. They experienced some of the same things. Those individuals set—as I said, for me—set a path where I could actually thrive here. Without what they experienced in going through and hurdles they had to go through, like opening up the ability for me to live anywhere in the Tri-Cities. They did that. I didn’t. A lot of what they experienced and what they went through. And you know what? That’s the same as it is in America. There’s a lot of patterns of the same. Again, I was shocked to hear that Kennewick was the Birmingham of the Northwest. I guess Portland was pretty bad, my understanding is. The Northwest was probably that new horizon. I think people that lived here didn’t know, or didn’t expect that migration to this—you know, the dam and the Hanford Project brought a lot of minorities this way, was the idea that there was work. And they actually could get work, is what brought them here. I don’t believe in why you don’t see the numbers. The number of blacks that came to the Northwest was nothing like what went to Chicago and in there. I mean, a lot migrated to the main cities. Not as many here. I don’t really know much about Seattle. The Northwest doesn’t have a really high African American population. Again, I’ve seen the number sometimes but it’s pretty low. So, point being is, not as many came. I think they got the brunt of that racial—because a lot of the Southern whites also came for the same reason. Franklin: Yeah. Martin: But they came in much larger numbers. So, I think it provided a platform for me to do reasonably well here. Franklin: Great. What were the major civil rights issues for African Americans at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities during your time here? Martin: Equal access to work. Equal access to promotions. Many were relegated to certain types of jobs. I even hear it, matter of fact, just like yesterday. I was at the barber. [LAUGHTER] Went to the barbershop and a black individual that I hadn’t seen in a while was working at PNNL and he said he had to leave because he wasn’t being given opportunities for a promotion. But then he got called by one of the other contractors out at Hanford and said, hey, we got a supervisor’s job for you. Of course, he shifted and went. Now, why was there an opportunity there and not at PNNL? I don’t know. But it tells you something, that these things happen, and they happen more often than you might think. I would say, something I learned through some training, actually, it’s called unconscious bias. Have you heard that term? Franklin: Mm-hmm. Martin: Okay. Franklin: But maybe you could explain it for the sake of the interview. Martin: People unconsciously make biases. They don’t realize they’re doing it. It’s probably—no, it is—from their upbringing. They have a built-in bias that expresses itself, but it’s unconscious to them. Unless they recognize they have this bias, they don’t see it happening. They just think this is just a normal occurrence for them. I think, within PNNL and other management situations, people have them, and they don’t realize it until something brings it to the forefront for them to: one, accept that it exists. I make that statement because they will say it isn’t, but it’s there. And I’ve got them, you’ve got them, she’s got them. Oops, talking about the camera person. Everybody has them. It may not be about race. It could be about religion. It could be about just about anything. It could be about foods. They have never test—some people may have never tasted Mexican food, but they—no, I wasn’t taught that. Franklin: Right, they just know they don’t like it. Martin: Yeah, for some reason they just don’t like it. But anyway, that unconscious bias is a big deal, still today. That is something that I got exposed to and I also shared that with a lot of other managers to get to understand how to expand their consciousness about how they make choices, make decisions. Franklin: What actions were and are being taken to address those issues of civil rights in the— Martin: I think they’re talked about a lot more now. I believe, in some cases, some things were brought about in the lab because it was regulated. I may forget this agency’s name; I think it was called—it’s called OFCCP? Office of the Federal something Compliance. They monitored the contract, and there were certain things that—in order to have a federal contract, there were some issues around racial, ethnic, women—requirements that in order for you to hold this federal contract, you must comply to. Some of that drives behavior and management action. It’s sad to say that a lot of things that happened in America is not necessarily done because it’s the right thing to do, but because they got forced to do it. Some through regulation. And I think some of what happens in the lab was driven by being reviewed and being under certain types of consent orders, that they must do a better job. I saw that happen. There is a lot of individuals within the lab who have—who truly do have a desire to see change. Some of them may be hampered by the environment they’re in. They have good intentions, but unless it’s driven all the way down, it just doesn’t happen. So I’ve seen a cultural change within the lab, over probably a 15- or 20-year period. Slowly but surely, people will put their arms around the fact that, you know— And once—I brought in a lot of black students from historically black colleges through a lot of programs. Once they see that these individuals could perform and they could do just as well, they had credentials, you know. It’s just that they didn’t go out to certain venues that exposed them to where that population was there. And I think once they started seeing those and they said, oh, okay. There’s a little more comfort in that. I think more has happened over time. And you’ll find champions. You’ll find people willing to open up and willing to take—in some cases I think they’re taking a risk. And they do. Which is very—it was and is very encouraging. Franklin: Who were the important leaders of civil rights efforts in this area? Martin: Whoa. Well, you had Webster in here, didn’t you? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: Yeah, he’s one. I think that CJ Mitchell, because he had a platform that he could. When you look at AACCES, that organization, it has done a lot. Because it approached it from an exposure point, a cultural thing, and a gathering of information, and then presenting it to the people. What’s Eleanor’s last name? Eleanor, she’s the one that runs the Juneteenth pageant. Dang. I think her last name’s Sparks, because she married a Sparks, Wayne Sparks. Is she on your list to interview? Franklin: I don’t know. We interviewed Ellenor Moore. Not the same Eleanor? Martin: Ellenor Moore is Vanessa—is Leonard’s mother. Franklin: Mother, yeah. Eleanor Sparks. Martin: But look up Juneteenth in the—I think it’s—her short name is El, but Sparks. She’s the director of Juneteenth. If you can get an audience with her, I think you would get a very—and you know, she’s heavily in the black churches, she leads the gospel singing. Franklin: Do you know her well? Martin: Yeah, I know El. Franklin: Oh, okay. Martin: If you want, I can call her and say—pass on your name or something. Franklin: I find that’s some of the most helpful when doing these, especially across cultural barriers— Martin: Yeah. Franklin: You know, just trying to peer into a different community, that introduction helps a lot. Martin: I’ll do that. Franklin: Thank you. I would really appreciate that. You know, it just makes it so much more smooth. Martin: She has had some situation within the lab, with the racial issues. Franklin: Okay. Martin: And I remember having—she would come to me, was one of those people that came to me and asked me, this is what happened. And I’d bring it up with other managers, saying, this shouldn’t be happening to her. And the guy—I’m not going to say his name—he had a pretty abrasive personality in the first dang place. He just—more of it got exposed. And she wasn’t going to put up with it. And some people just put up with things, right? But I’ll make sure that I give her your phone number and she calls you. Franklin: Thank you. What were some of the notable successes in addressing civil rights issues in the area that you noticed or were a part of? Martin: Never really part of any. Seeing, whenever they would have a soul food event, how welcoming the people would just flock to it. When they did that—because around food people just—I don’t know what it is about food, but it just brings them out. And then they would get a cultural lesson at the same time. Those kind of events always brought about real positive celebration, and across racial lines. Juneteenth was another one, get people rallied around it. Those kinds of events are the ones I remember the most that are more positive. I rarely saw any large protests. I remember, when I was on the board at Columbia Basin College; I was a trustee. And it happened that Katrina occurred. And there was a huge—the issue of poverty just rose its ugly head. So I put on three workshops on poverty that were held on campus. I say that because I don’t believe people realized how many black individuals lived in New Orleans. It’s like, greater than 50%, maybe it was 60%. It was a very large percentage. People didn’t understand why these people didn’t get out. And events were held so that people recognized, when you’re poor and somebody says get in your car and leave—you don’t have a car! How you leaving? No buses are coming down to take anybody anywhere. These people were trapped. Franklin: Right, yeah. Martin: The poverty level in New Orleans was, like, I think it was like 50-some-percent in poverty. Mostly black but also white. Well, I bring that story up just because people here, once we started having these workshops, they were like, wow, they didn’t realize—you don’t get it in the news. The news wasn’t sharing it. They just showed the aftermath. So I had a young man who was working for me, black individual—I had a lot of relatives that lived—I think I counted 40, 42. Many of them were recently well-off, I mean, middle class. But they were devastated, right? So this one young man who was a black scientist, I brought—I helped him get his PhD. His mom lived down there, near one of my relatives and gave him time off so he could go down and help his mom. I bring these little ones up because people in the lab—there was a connection and I could tell them, I have relatives down there. I’m sending them money, whatever. I didn’t physically go down. These people are out. And that’s a huge black community. That brought an enlightenment about poverty and racial perceptions. By having those workshops—and we had a lot of agencies come in and there was a lot of talk, primarily about poverty. And they didn’t realize how much poverty was in the Tri-Cities. How many people were in poverty. Numbers were shared. And people were surprised. I think the folks that work at the laboratory are a little bit more affluent. Tend to stay where you’re most comfortable, right? There’s also a financial culture. People will stay amongst people who have money. Franklin: Right, well, we segregate ourselves based on class, which often breaks down on race. Martin: Yes, it does. Franklin: And people but houses in new subdivisions and they move farther away and they just don’t interact anymore. The people without money get left behind. And those neighborhoods decay. And it just compounds the problem. Martin: So the whole issue of poverty brought in both the perspective of race and class to this community. And there was a lot of conversation around it. Just the fact that—just because a person is homeless doesn’t mean they’re a drug addict or they’re this—no. An unfortunate thing happened to them where they were out of home, because they didn’t have the money. And it’s not like they’re bad people. If you look at it, that happened, and so Katrina brought a different type of conversation in this community. I think it did across the country. But it happened here. People, I think, were a little bit more aware. But as with everything, it fades. Franklin: Yeah, yeah. We talked about some of the kind of successes in addressing civil rights in the area. What were some of the biggest challenges? Martin: In order to get people to come and live here, as far as black individuals, there’s not a lot for them. I think that’s a major impediment. I think just the area itself, just its physical location, the actual population of African Americans here, I think, it’s probably around 2%. It’s low. Franklin: Yeah. Martin: The Hispanic population is probably more around 30-ish, Tri-City-wide. Check my numbers on that one. But in Pasco it’s probably more like 70? Franklin: Yeah, I think it’s, overall, we’re almost around 50, I think. Martin: Overall in the whole Tri-Cities? Franklin: I think—last time I checked—at least in schools. Because I taught at— Martin: Oh, in schools, yes. Franklin: I taught a class in American history, and Pasco was about 70% Latino, Kennewick’s about 50, Richland’s about 20-25. So I think if you average that out, you’d get somewhere probably around 40-50. Martin: Between 40-50, okay. Franklin: But it could be 30-40. Martin: No, you’re a lot closer numbers. Franklin: It’s still pretty significant. Martin: Yes. I mean, real significant. So, the fact that we have—it’s changing. That’s what’s changed here. I think it’s no different than the rest of the country. There’s this fear factor. I mean, I think you see all this immigration topics and fear. It has a lot to do with that changing face of America. I think you’re seeing some of that here. I don’t think. I know you’re seeing some of that here, okay? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: I’m not sure how people want to react to it. I sit on the board for Kadlec Hospital. Matter of fact, at present time, I’m the chair of the board. And looking at your service areas and looking at the makeup of who comes in for services and having to deal with the poor and the vulnerable. We have three hospitals: Lourdes, Trios, and Kadlec; Kadlec being the biggest, and we have probably 55-60% of the market. Trios has about 20-25. And Lourdes is a critical care hospital, so it’s going to be low. It’s restricted to 25 beds. And it has probably 10-ish percent. I tell you that because in working that scheme of things, you can see how people’s attitudes will get to who is the primary customers there. More and more people are of the Medicaid, which is healthcare for the poor. And of course with the changing baby boomer retirement deals, a lot of them go on Medicare, and those are hard to balance, because you get paid less for those for services than you do in the commercial market. And in that comes a conversation around who is the makeup of your customers. So I hear conversations. I say, well, that is who we are. That’s who we have to serve. We have to figure out how we’re going to serve those better. So people will tend to, eventually, coalesce around certain aspects of race, of what you’re seeing. And understand that that’s who our customer is. It’s actually a very positive—I’ve seen a very positive change. You want to make sure people understand and represent—and I represent myself as well as I can in those scenarios. So, the Tri-Cities is going through a change. Like you said, the Hispanic population being as large as it is, they’re more impactful, both from the dollar, as well as what they want to see for services. You know, you have some people say, why does everything have to be in Spanish and in English? Have you looked at who we’re serving?! I mean! It has to be. We must do that, in order to be fair, right? So I’ve seen those, I see them happening. It’s a good thing. So the Tri-Cities—you notice, I just say Tri-Cities. I’m not a native. Well, I guess I am now, but. Franklin: I was going to say, you’ve been here a lot longer than I have. Martin: I didn’t grow up here, right? Franklin: Sure. Martin: So I just look at it as three cities. I call it Tri-Cities. It’d be nice if they were consolidated, but— Franklin: Me, too. It could just be one city called Tri-Cities. I know, I’ve always— Martin: That’s the way I put it, anyway. So, I hope for the better. I stay active. Even though I retired, I stay active and involved in things in the community. Less than I was, but enough to see change. Franklin: Yeah. I wanted to add, just real quick, fill in some previous information. Where did you get your master’s and PhD? Martin: My master’s I got though what they used to call the Joint Center for Graduate Studies. Franklin: Right, right here. Martin: Which is WSU, right here. And I got it through the University of Washington, because that’s who offered that particular degree. When I went to get my PhD, it had become WSU, and I was the first person who was able to stitch together a PhD program that was a joint between main campus and here. They had this thing called the residency rule. Pfft. Basically, what it said was, you must spend at least two years of your PhD on campus, on the main campus. Franklin: Right, probably because they want your residence money. Martin: That’s not the way they present it to you. Franklin: Well, of course not. Martin: They say, what we believe is necessary is for you to be able to be embroiled in the academic environment for which you are— Franklin: Paying handsomely? Martin: No, no, not paying handsomely. That will make the foundation for your PhD. Franklin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Martin: What a crock. Franklin: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Martin: But I had to spend—I ended up, I had Karen [UNKNOWN] was the provost. We worked it out; she got approval through the main campus. I did three—two-and-a-half semesters on the campus. So I had to travel back and forth, left my family here and yadda, yadda, yadda. And then I finished it out here. Matter of fact, I had my office down here in the basement. I finished out here. So I got my PhD through Washington State University. I was the first person to get a PhD in environmental and natural resource sciences. Franklin: Oh, wow. Congratulations. Martin: I was the very first person. That’s not always good. Because you’re the guinea pig. I really questioned whether I was going to go and get it, but Dr. Wiley, he was retiring. He said—you know, that’s the credential thing. If you look at me, I was close to 40, I guess. It was in the early ‘90s when I jumped off the cliff and did it. I was leaving an environment, scientific environment where I knew who my mentors were, I knew who my colleagues were. They were supportive. And I was going to go into a whole different thing on campus with professors I didn’t have any clue who they were, they didn’t have, necessarily, my best interests in mind. So, I did that. They had my life in their hands. That’s a scary thing. At least it was for me, going and doing that. But I did it, and I worked my way through it. As I say to people, they go, what does it take to get a PhD? I say, well—I’m very simple in my approaches of things—I say, well, you only have to do two things: satisfy your graduate school; satisfy your committee. Get them to sign off on the documents. Once you’re done that, you’re done. You know? But! It’s not easy to do either one of those things, either one of those. And long story short, I ended up getting it. I think I was the first person—because at the time when I finally got it, I got it as a WSU Tri-Cities student. I was the first person. So not a lot of the people now don’t have to do the residency program. There’s PhD programs here. But that’s where I got my education. So, my bachelor’s was WSU, master’s is University of Washington, PhD, WSU. Franklin: Wow. When you came here in 1975 and then came back, how did you feel at the time about working, if not directly on the development of nuclear weapons, at a site that played a large essential role in the development of nuclear weapons? Martin: Well, let me correct you. Franklin: Okay. Martin: The national laboratory is in Richland. It has some facilities that happen to be on the Hanford Site. Franklin: Right. Martin: So I never really worked for Hanford, how’s that? I worked at Hanford only because the facilities were on the southern part of the Site. Franklin: You did work for a Hanford contractor. Martin: Well! I don’t even count that. Franklin: Okay. [LAUGHTER] Martin: That was something I did to make some money. Franklin: Certainly, though— Martin: But we had an association now with the Hanford Site. I did projects that were related to problems at the Hanford Site. Some of the waste issues, some of the burial issues, yes. But I always want to correct people: I never worked, in my, let’s say, my real career. Franklin: Right. Martin: So, how did I feel about working at the Hanford Site, the thing that was associated with the bomb? Franklin: Yeah. Martin: You got to remember, I’m a scientist. That was one of the greatest scientific discoveries ever. Although, what it did to Japan was horrific. But yet, it’s the same science that creates nuclear power. So, it’s scientific discovery. I’m good with it. I never had any—as far as waste disposal and its impact on the environment and all that, I understand a lot of that. I think a lot of it is overblown. There are contaminants; yes, yes. Some of them got in the river; yes, yes. But there’s actually more negative impact from fertilizers going into the Columbia than there was with radioactive material. Most of the problems out at Hanford, the waste problems, are pretty contained. There are certain amounts that are in the subsurface, granted, they’re there. But they’re there. Don’t be going out and drilling a well down there and pulling up water to drink. Wouldn’t be a good thing. So, I have probably a slightly different perspective. But I’m very comfortable. Once again, because my background in science and I got to study a lot of those waste contaminants. As a matter of fact, my PhD was related to one of the components, carbon-14, and its transport mechanisms through the subsurface, explaining exactly how it happens, what happens. And I was able to prove that the general understanding was incorrect in how it is retained. So I have an association. Franklin: What do you think is the most important legacy of the Hanford Site? Martin: Wow, legacy. Most important legacy. Well, it helped end the war. Some people may not be—there’s a debate on whether we should’ve dropped the bomb or not. I’m not probably telling you anything haven’t already heard. But that is its legacy. It’s connected to the bomb. Now, there are some scientific advances that are being made associated with the cleanup that have now been able to use in other cleanup activities that are related to Hanford and what was done there. Transport of materials above ground. This whole vitrification plant that’s going in. There was a vitrification plant, I think, in the UK, but this is going to be way bigger, much more complex. There is going to be science—there has been science that’s come out of it, from understanding what they had to do, and I think there’ll be further. So the first legacy is the bomb. The second is, what are the spinoff technologies that we’re going to see from what we study in the creation of the vitrification plant. Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working near Hanford and living in Richland during the Cold War? Martin: Say that again? Franklin: What would you like future generations to know about working near Hanford, or related to Hanford, and living in Richland during the Cold War? Martin: Present and future generations, if you want to be involved from a scientific point of view in problems that are challenging, you come here. You come to the lab or you come to work at the Site, you are going to experience science challenges that you’re not going to find anywhere else. National labs, there’s more than just this one. Okay? So always, in part of my recruiting of individuals, was if you want to be involved in scientific discovery that is new, challenging, and transferrable, you come work at the lab. You want to take on a challenge that’s like nowhere else as far as waste disposal, you come to Hanford. Hanford has a lot of different aspects to that cleanup, from the mundane, people just driving trucks, moving dirt from here to there, burying it, to the people who have put together the vitrification plant and taken on the challenges of putting together a system never been done before. So that’s—if I put it in a nutshell, that’s what I’d put in it. Franklin: Is there anything else you’d like to mention related to migration, work experiences, segregation and civil rights and how they impacted your life at Hanford and in the Tri-Cities? Martin: The way I look at a lot of those issues, you just put them all together, I always say to folks, me as a black individual in America, I wouldn’t be here, I wouldn’t’ve had the opportunities I had, if it wasn’t for civil rights, if it wasn’t for affirmative action. For all those people who piss and moan about affirmative action, I would not have had—and I know it to this day—I would not have gotten the opportunity to go to school, gotten a job at PNNL. You might call me an affirmative action hire. I’ll be proud of that. Okay? So, I believe, as an individual, I ride on the shoulders of many. I will tell you, this is kind of a story. I have an aunt, she’s passed away now. Auntie Anna. Auntie Anna was my mother’s favorite aunt. When I was struggling to decide whether I was going to go and get my PhD, because, seriously, I was like, why do I really want to go do this? I went down and sat with my aunt—she lived down in what they called the Jungle in LA, not a good part of town. We sat in her room, she smoked, and we’re sitting there talking, and I said, you know, Auntie Anna, I’m trying to decide if I’m going to do this. And she was pissed. [LAUGHTER] She goes, Wayne, I have known you for forever, and you know, me, your aunts and your uncles, we went through a lot of struggles. And they’re offering you this opportunity to go back and you’d be the only one in our family to get a PhD and you’re sitting here trying to decide whether you’re going to do it or not?! What is wrong with you? When you leave here, you go sign up right now. She made it apparent that I have opportunities because of her and others. I won’t forget that conversation. It is kind of part of why I went through and did it. She was one of them, besides Wiley. So a lot of what is happening in America, for those that might hear me speaking or wherever, and for those that might even know me, I might not have shared some of these things with them. But without those things happening, I could’ve been born in New Roads, Louisiana and still be there under oppression. Because when I go back there, there is a lot of people who are not doing a whole lot, didn’t get a whole lot of opportunity. But for many of those, like my father, who left and went out and became in the service and we moved and I got to be exposed to different things. That’s who I’m made up of now. And without those, yeah, I have skills. But you know, there’s a lot of people have skills. They just may not have the opportunity to express them. A lot of the civil rights stuff is why I have the opportunity that I’ve had. Franklin: That’s very well said, Wayne. Thank you for coming to the interview with. Martin: Hey, that was great! Franklin: It’s been a wonderful interview. Martin: Hopefully I said the right things or did the right things. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, no, you-- <a href="https://youtu.be/ww1Zsn1-Slk">View interview on Youtube. </a> Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview Westinghouse Pacific Northwest National Laboratory 324 Building Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1975- Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wayne Martin Subject The topic of the resource Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Pasco (Wash.) Segregation Discrimination Racism Civil rights movements Radioactive wastes Radioactive waste disposal Geochemistry African American universities and colleges Migration Affirmative action Poverty Civil rights Description An account of the resource Wayne Martin moved to Richland, Washington in 1975 and worked for Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. A National Park Service funded project to document the history of African American contributions to Hanford and the surrounding communities. This project was conducted through the Pacific Northwest Cooperative Ecosystems Unit, Task Agreement P17AC01288 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 04/05/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection. This oral history collection was done in partnership with the National Park Service under Task Agreement P17AC01288. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F9c663b7d3d71590850e6b15129f5807f.jpg 06e1f10cf2e38fb3e3dfb0b8752d48eb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fe2e54b58cdd2f5fab7a12a0708dc2830.mp4 79bd6450065d4f81f08c69238dc284b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bauman, Robert Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Snyder, Wayne Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Snyder_Wayne_1 Wayne Snyder: That was always the worst thing when I worked was public speaking. I don't know how they do it. All three of my children are--they all speak about their professions. My son sings publicly and everything, but they came from a dad who isn't that much around— Robert Bauman: Not much for public speaking? Snyder: Oh Amos, if you stay down, it's okay. Bauman: Okay, we good? All right, let's go ahead and get started. Snyder: Okay. Bauman: Let's start by just having you say your name and spell it for us. Snyder: Okay. Wayne Snyder, W-A-Y-N-E, S-N-Y-D-E-R. Bauman: All right, and today's date is September 4th, 2013. Snyder: Correct. Bauman: And we're conducting this interview in Mr. Snyder's home— Snyder: Right. Bauman: --in Richland. So let's start by maybe having you tell me about how you came to Hanford, how you heard about the place, when you came. Snyder: Okay. Well, I was at University of Colorado. I graduated there in 1950 in chemistry, and GE was one of two outfits that interviewed me. They were offering a salary of $54 a week, and that beat out the government job in Rifle, Colorado doing oil shale by about $5 a week. So I accepted this, thinking I was going to the General Electric research laboratory back in Schenectady, New York, but wound up--oh, no, you're going to Hanford. We need to people out there. So I got on the—well, my parents came to my graduation; they put me on the train to Richland. And I got here in the middle of night in Kennewick, and I had only a bus ticket from Pendleton to Kennewick. GE was supposed to pick me up, but they didn't. So I was fumbling around with all my luggage, all of my worldly belongings, and looking for a motel. A lady came by and said, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm trying to get to Hanford or to Richland, if you know where that is. She said, oh yeah. She said, I'm picking up my son who is just off shift down here. Can I give you a lift up to town? So we pulled into Richland, and it was about midnight by this time. And the city lights were pretty much on, and I thought, wow. You know, it looked to me at that time kind of like Las Vegas, all lights lit up, very contemporary. Bell Furniture had its lights on on its sign. And the building I went to was the Hanford House, which was called then the Desert Inn, a structure that preceded the existing building. And it was an old army facility, and everything looked like army around here. And I went in, and I said, I would like to get a room for tonight if I could. And they said, sure. I said, first I got to tell you. I have a check for $35, if you could cash that it would help me to pay for the place. And they said, oh sure. So I spent the night, on the second floor, woke up and looked out my window. And it was the most bare—just place without any life or anything except for the big river that I could see flowing by. And I thought, oh God, if I can just earn enough money to get a car, I'll get out of here. But I'm here later, all this time. Excuse me, my voice is cracking on me. And so I was taken over to the 703 Building, which was at that time where the Federal Building is today. And it was the headquarters for all of the Hanford site General Electric company top dogs, and the AEC, as DOE was in those days. And it was a white—just white, wooden building like everything in town, looking like an army camp, and a big building though. It had a main hallway that extended, I think, five wings, and so you would go in the building, and here's the big lobby. And I was taken to a place where they would interview me again, I think. And they said, oh you're a tech grad aren't you? And that was because I was wearing a blue sport coat and a tie. And he said, oh, yeah, you're not coming to dig ditches. you're coming to be a professional. I said, well, that's good. And so they oriented me and told me where I would be working, and asked if everything was going well. I was living in a dormitory in North Richland at that time, and that was about—what it is, six miles out of town from the Federal Building. So they made sure I could get the bus and get to work and stuff like that, but told me I'd be working out at the bismuth phosphate process, the 200 East 271 Canyon. It's the building that today they are just calling the Queen Mary. Its sister building is, the 271-T. But 271 was the B Plant, and it did the batch processing of all of the irradiated fuels in the 100 Areas, dissolved them up, separated them out by this bismuth phosphate precipitation process. Refined them through pretty much a high concentration plutonium nitrate solution. And that went on off to the 330--233 B, which was over in Two West Area. And you are not interested in the rest of the process, because it just gets boring. But anyway, I got out to work. I took the bus out, which became a very, very common thing every day. Run out and catch the bus, and go 30 miles through the desert to the north and get to the 300 Area. Excuse me, the 200 East Area. And go into my little building, which was the analytical laboratories associated with the big processing canyon building. And there I did various analytical tests, you know, determining how much plutonium in the solution, what were the concentrations of the fission products, and what was left? And we started out with the initial dissolution of the batch process, and they would dissolve up in nitric acid. I don't know how many--fuel slugs, we called them in those days--they are now the fuel element. But they were about eight inches long, and about that big in diameter. And a whole batch of them would get dissolved up—you know, half a ton or something like that. And then we would measure all of the concentration of the various elements as it went through the precipitation process. And we took it through the lithium--the wait a second--hafnium fluoride. I'm getting confused here. This has been quite a few years ago--through a concentration and there the f-10 p sample went on to the Two West Area where the oxalate precipitation took place. And at that time, that was the end of the processing at Hanford. It went through a plutonium solution, plutonium nitrate, was bottled up in very safe containers and shipped to either Los Alamos, or to, I believe, Oak Ridge. And Los Alamos was able to go ahead and make metal out of it from which they fashioned to the various bomb pits. And we sort of ended there, but a few years later, as a matter of fact I worked at it, they built what's now called the Plutonium Finishing Plant. But it was at that time the 234-5 Building, and I worked there again as an analytical chemist in the analytical laboratories. And we were measuring the purity of the plutonium, the amount of extraneous materials. And unlike the bismuth phosphate process where we were worried about the radiation—the very high level gamma irradiation—over at 234-5, we were worried more about contamination from the plutonium. Plutonium gives off no radiation that penetrates anything, but if you ingest it, you've had it. And so we'd be in gloveboxes and protective clothing, and I don't think we had anything over our faces. But I remember reaching through the glovebox and refining all of the plutonium. And then I was a spectrometer. We did a spectrometric analysis of the old fashioned kind, where we burned it off, caught the rays that came off of it, and then we could read all of the barium, the cesium, the plutonium, everything in it. And that would go back to the processing, and if it was determined clean enough and everything, it would then be sent on—the metal from which it came--would be sent on to Los Alamos for processing. But very quickly after that, they built the lines, the ABC and whatever line, which went ahead and processed the metal—the plutonium metal into a shape, which was then shaped into the bomb pit that was being built at the time. And it's not thought of that Hanford ever really handled the metal or produced weapons—weapon parts, but we did for quite a few years. And that seems like a long part of my life, those three years from 1950 up until 1953, when I was kind of tired of that. And I think they were tired of me, perhaps, out at that area too. I interviewed for and got a job in radiation monitoring. And the nice thing about it, it was the first time I lived closer to town. It was--that facility was officed in the 300 Area. And it was day shift. That other time I worked shift work the whole time. This was ABCD shift. It was 24/7. The plants were operating constantly. And so I would be working day shift, then swing shift, then graveyard shift, and it's rotated, so that you were cut out of your night life for every two out of three--let me get it straight--weekends. And all my buddies that I was with in the dormitories had all--they were day shift. And they worked Monday through Friday, they would take off weekends for the mountains or for the rivers or for the fun times. And I would get to go every third long weekend. I was off from Friday morning graveyard until Wednesday afternoon swing shift, so I had what's called a long weekend which is four full days of fun and playing except, there was nobody around that I liked, that I enjoyed. There were a lot of people worked those shifts. But most of them were operators in the production plants, or were at least a part of the continuing plutonium production and not into research or other more fun things like they did in 300 Area. Well, I was able to do that for about two more years or so, and in 1955, I was interviewed and joined a group called the Graphite Group. This group was involved in studying graphite, which is the main moderator. It's that big black block in the center of the reactors which slows the neutrons down to absorption velocity, so that they get struck in the 235 and cause it to fission, or are absorbed in the 236, and ultimately through neptunium become plutonium. And the graphite was swelling badly in the reactors. It was a fairly low temperature thing in the reactor, and the power level was around 250 megawatts. I think that was the design level. They ultimately got to operating up over 1,000 megawatts, so that was a lot. But anyway back to the graphite. I would get samples made and little cylinders and get them shaped up by the machinists, and then we would irradiate them in the test holes in the reactors. I would work out at the reactors quite often. We would be putting samples in the test holes. Getting them out, putting them in, taking them out. And then I could measure the graphite samples, as to how much dimensional change they had made. And at that time, all of them grew slightly, very slightly. But in the full size reactor, it was enough growth that the reactor was beginning to really buckle. It sunk in the middle and grew on the edges, so that the process tubes which used to go straight through the reactor began to be a shape that started higher, sunk down in the center, and went out. And they got so bowed that eight inch slugs or fuel elements would not go through them. And they would charge them in for re-irradiation—or for their first cycle, they would almost not go through those process tubes. The process tubes were aluminum. They were surrounded with water which cooled them, and the fuel elements then did its thing, fission, and made all this heat and fission products and stuff that we're still trying to get rid of here at Hanford. But that was really fun because it was day shift, it was not doing analytical chemistry. And I was working with more people who—well, all of the tech grads who did analytical work were really fun, but it got me in with the crowd, like John Fox as a matter of fact. And it just seemed more like what it was supposed to do with my life—a highbrow chemist in a research setting. But with my bachelor's degree, that wasn't the best preparation for highbrow scientific work. And I did some artwork back in those days. It was always a phase of mine. And when I got my chemistry degree, I really wished that I had gotten a bachelor's in fine arts, but I knew that would pay for nothing. [LAUGHTER] So I decided, well, to make it in fine arts, I better do something. So my wife and I got married, and we went off to Mexico where I produced a portfolio of artwork. It was a good enough to get me into one of the best commercial art centers in the country. It was called The Art Center in Los Angeles, California. And there again, I loved it. But I lasted about, oh, four months, I’ll say, into the first quarter. I was doing very well, but the people who were assigning the work would hang over you. And they would evaluate what you did, and they would find it lacking, because it wasn't as professional as they were. And so I enjoyed it though, but I thought, if I'm going to have a wife and maybe a family, I’d better earn a living. So I called my old boss at Hanford. Said, you know this art stuff isn't really working for me. Is there anything back there that I could do? He said, well, come on back, Wayne. So I joined the Graphite Group again briefly, but they let me interview around until I found something that would be a more likely career, something that would actually let me promote in career and stuff. And I joined a job—joined a group called the Programming Group, and it was the first of an outfit being put together that looked at the whole plant's operation. And they were responsible for resolving all of the programs that were going on. So we did the report writing and the final merging of all of the Plutonium Recycle Program, was the primary source of this stuff. And the plutonium recycle program went on from about--I'm going to say '58. I was married '58, so this would be '59. And as a matter of fact, again, joining with John Fox, who was one of the designers of the PRTR. And we were, at that time, probably rooming together in old Bauer Day house which were the first nongovernment owned houses in Richland. Spokane built of an outfit called the Spokane Village, which are the—oh, what would you call them, honey? The houses along George Washington Way, between it and Stevens north of the old Uptown area, those white, two-bedroom, three-bedroom buildings with white, I suppose, asbestos shingles and stuff. Anyway, where am I going from here? You can cut for a second. Bauman: You were talking about rooming. Snyder: Yes, thank you. Yes. And so Gerry McCormick and Fox and I got together, and we decided we'd rent one of the Bauer Day—we would rent a Richland Village house. But they would not rent to single people, so we tried the Bauer Day place. And they said, yeah, we'll rent you a house. So we got together. And I worked for Graphite Group, and Gerry was in chemistry on the separations process. And Fox was designing the PRTR. And we just hit it off well, and we were--not to brag, but we were one of the classy bachelor quarters in town. So now I'm preceding my art career, but before going there I was working in this stuff, having all this fun. We'd have--I was day shift of course—weekends off. John and Gerry were, and we'd have parties with 30 some people or so attending. And lots of people came, because we would have lots of hard liquor. And just had a good time generally. So that lasted for a while, but then when I got married, I came back, joined this programing group that I talked about earlier, got involved in the whole site more or less, and reported to a pretty high up guy, Larry McEwen. And he thought that I would be able to help publicize Hanford to the public. I would put together a small exhibition center, a room that showed the process in its entirety, and add some examples of fuel elements and various solvent extraction columns and things like that. And that was really fun, and I enjoyed it. And reported to Larry, and this was right reporting to Herb Parker who of course became the head of all the laboratories. But, another kid, Art Scott, and I were asked to help him write his annual talk, and so we met with Herb which was quite high level thing for us. And we scraped and bowed and did the appropriate things and came together with a script that he could use for the big annual meeting. And he would go through it, and he would laugh. And he would say, we don't say things like, further on in the evening we will get into. He said, that would kill the talk right there. People are bored and no way would they like to hear, longer on at some time, while they still sat there. But any way, Art and I did okay. And he then joined an outfit called measurements, which was all new in those times. It was a group assigned to measure the progress of the company. How well were they doing? Were they meeting program requirements? And he did that. And I joined--left the Programming Group. And my boss there Kelly Wood said, Wayne, you're going nowhere. He said, you're going to have to do something else if you expect to have a career. And at that time, an offer came up from the technical information crowd. Chris Stevens was manager of a technical library, and they did this work called reviewing reports for declassification. And so it sounded pretty good, and it was more permanent. And so I joined that group, which was much more of a service job again. So I discovered my real career was in service work; it was not in science and engineering and research and that kind of stuff. And so I got over, and I joined Chris Stevenson, and this is a group of about 35 people in the Technical Information Group, most of which processed all of the technical reports that were created at Hanford. We had the technical library, which provided all of the technical information from worldwide scientists and engineers would need. And I reviewed these new technical reports for the appropriate classification: could they go out unclassified, or should they be confidential, or should they be secret? And everything at Hanford was born secret. Unlike the Department of Defense, which wrote stuff and then decided whether it was sensitive, here stuff was sensitive, period, before it was reviewed and allowed to be unclassified. So I would review all of these reports, as boring as they were, and identify things would have to be deleted in order for them to be unclassified. And most of them were high technical reports. They were not about the production programs. They were not about how much plutonium was produced and things like that. It was about the Plutonium Recycle Program; it was about advanced research in materials; it was about lots of interesting things. And so I sort of acquired a knowledge of things that were going on around the whole site, mainly research. Bauman: About what time frame was this that you were doing this? Snyder: Time frame? This would be 19--this was about 1980, I think, when I interviewed with Chris Stevenson and was hired into this Technical Information Group. And that was my career then. I had worked at Hanford for seven years before going to Art Center, and I worked for them for a couple more years, from 1950 and joined the group in 1960, the Programming Group. And so this would have been '63, I think, was when I joined Technical Information Group. Am I off on dates here badly? I hope not. Anyway. It was kind of boring, but I was the classification officer, did all this reviewing, and gained some awareness of how important the information was that supported a technical outfit like Hanford was, partly research and a lot of production stuff. And progressed in that far enough to where when Chris Stevenson resigned, other than just being a reviewer of reports or classification, I became a candidate for running the whole thing. So I became manager of Technical Information section in 1963. And then Battelle Memorial Institute came in and got the contract to run the research parts of Hanford, and the work I was in joined Battelle. And that was, I think, 1965. Things changed a little bit with Battelle. It was a more behavioral kind of a company. GE had been very strict, very much old style corporation, very line management, very much more like normal business. And Battelle came in, and they were used to doing contract research. They would have people come in and say, we have this problem in our material studies for zirconium or something, could you help us solve this problem? So Battelle was used to doing the same kind of research as the Hanford laboratories, but on a much broader scale; more kinds of technology were looked at. And it was a good outfit to work for, and as a matter of fact, I retired from them in 1990. And I had progressed in the technical information work enough that I was really enjoying my job as manager of that outfit. There were about 40 staff members, I'd say, who reported to me, primarily women, but a few professional guys in the technical information work. That I—well, I enjoyed the women too, but the guys, at that time--I shouldn't say this--but were more important than the women, so you tended to associate with guys instead of women in the technical side. And very soon after that, probably ten years, women really came to the front of course in science, and they became bosses around here. But my work had primarily been in a more traditional work through my early career, and through a whole different kind of work as a manager of technical information, being responsible to provide all of the current ongoing world information in science and technology to the Hanford scientists and engineers for their needs in conducting their programs. So that was a very satisfying thing to do, and it acquainted me even further with all of the kinds of things that were going on at Hanford, but without being responsible for making the reactors operate or making the research programs work and things like that. So that a good career. And like I said, I was married in '58, went off to Los Angeles--Mexico and Los Angeles--and then came back and spent the rest of my life, pretty much, in a technical information career. And it's been good. Bauman: I would go back a little bit. You say when you said you first arrived, you lived in the dorm? Snyder: Yes. At that time-- Bauman: Could you talk about that a little bit? Where was the dorm? What was the dorm like? Snyder: Sure. Initially, the City of Richland of course was all government owned. DuPont had had set up, and followed by General Electric company, setting up dorms for single women who were working onsite, and dormitories for single men. And the dorms for men were called M1, M2, M3, M4, whatever. And the women's dorms were called W. What W to do with it? And I was in M9 for a short time. And the company decided set up this dormitory for the single tech grads, and they didn't have an empty men's dorm so they set aside one of the women's dorms, W21. It was built on what would be the parking lot of Albertson's grocery store right now, down on Lee and Jadwin. And that was where I met Fox and McCormick and all these other guys that I still see occasionally today. But it was a whole different style. It was amazing. How could guys be shunted off into a supervised dormitory, practically a continuation of your freshman year in college? We had a house mother even, who made sure we were behaving, not having women into our rooms, and things like that. [LAUGHTER] And today kids would just have a—they would up-rise against this kind of thing. But all of us were pretty pliable. And we were still earning a living. I did get above $52 a week, finally. But still not earning great bucks at that time. So the dormitories, they were $11.50 a month, and the beds were made daily by maids that came in and helped clean up our rooms a little bit. So it was-- Bauman: How long did you live in the dorms? Snyder: I lived in the dorm for two years. And then that's when I joined the group in Bauer Day house, and became friends with—you know. It's amazing how many people who started then are still alive and still at Richland. And even today we'll get together with maybe 15 guys who were part of dorm W21, and three of which, we're really still close friends. And so-- Bauman: I wanted to ask you about, what was it like living in Richland during the 1950s? What was Richland like as a community? Snyder: Okay. It was--the government township made people feel very irresponsible about—they would rent a house, but the government owned it. So you have--you just paid your rent, $30 a month or whatever and got the comfort of having all of your fuel delivered weekly. And I think you did pay for groceries and things, but the town had a little bit of a government town—a company town situation. And people were good—the higher level--it was supposed to be a community that was totally non-status. Workers, and top dog managers, and presidents would all live in mixed up neighborhoods. You might live next door to a plumber, and there might be an electrical engineer in the next one. But that never worked, and the highbrow executives of the site did get all the houses along the river, which was called pill and skill drill hill, which was the doctors, the dentists, and the executives. And the rest of the population got nice houses, and no problem with it. But again, they're all government owned, and everybody rented them. But came 1958, this government town was sold to the occupants. The government got out of being responsible for any landlord responsibilities or any government--any town operation. And it—my dog is barking, you hear [LAUGHTER]--anyway, it changed. People really owned their own homes. And property was opened up where you could buy property and build your own house. So instead of all this very much alike, six or seven different kinds of houses were built, a large number of them, you now owned them, so you took care of them. But new property was available so that you could build your own house. And that all happened in 1958. The town got a mayor. Fox's first predecessor was a lady named—I can't remember. It was more of a—there was a city council. The city council worked with the General Electric Company and the AEC people to start running our own city. And then in '58 when it was all sold, they literally became the honest government for the town. And they had to set up company-owned, company-operated—I mean privately owned, city-owned fire departments, police stations, and all that kind of thing. By that time, private industry had come in and built the large chain grocery stores like Safeway, and Albertson's, and all those. And the health business had been all company owned, but the Kadlec Medical Center was set up, and it was private again. You went to doctors who were your own. The initial facilities were very primitive. They were just like government military operations. The hospital where all my children were born was just an old clapboard building that could have been any army fort in the country. But it turned private, and it started building on an enterprise basis more so. I bought one of the lots a little bit north of town, and by that time, I had three children in the Bauer Day house. But we built a larger home up on--a block off from the river but--up on Enterprise, which still exists. And the home we built, we had an architect, and we contracted it out. So it was very much a private-type operation. It was not a development house or something. And we lived in that house until two years ago, until 2000—was that it? No, 2011. We had built our house, and we had lived in it then until, like I said, 2011. So it just became a regular community, a regular life. The whole country's looking at Hanford. It was very accepted when it was an important part of defense. We were building weapons as fast as we could to keep up with Russia. The whole Cold War lasted that long period of time, so it was very solid employment. But it was not looked at negatively like today. Today, Hanford being the biggest waste dump in the world is not thought of really highly by a lot of environmentalists and other people like that. [LAUGHTER] It's slowly being realized, but up until that time, it was very patriotic. People thought, yay, we've won the war. We'll continue to be safe; we'll have the biggest arsenal in the world, be able to maintain our security and safety. And then when that was no longer that important, and they shut down the Hanford plutonium operation, the taking care of all the waste products that had been created, stored in the big tanks, stored in crypts and things like that, became a negative to the environmentalists. And so then Hanford site is still accepted and known to be important, but didn't enjoy that win-the-war patriotism, everyone thought highly of you, type situation. Bauman: I wonder about, especially during those early years in the 1950s, any community events that stand out, that you remember? Snyder: Oh, yeah. There was no real social facility in the town. There was the VFW, the Veteran Foreign's where they had a bar and a dance place. The city itself provided a lot of recreation in the way of athletic courts, tennis courts, swimming pool, and that. But pretty much, you made up your own entertainment. And things were formed like the Dormitory Club, and they would go on hikes at least two to three times a month during the summer. And the Alpine Club would go on climbs. And the athletic events, the local softball teams and things like that went on. But pretty much you made--you used those facilities, but you were responsible yourself to. If you wanted to have a party, you had it in your home. You didn't have a party in some commercial facility. There were no real bars or things like that. There's one place I remember though. When the government sold off the town, and the facilities were no longer needed, people may remember what was called the Mart. And it was like the dining halls out in the Areas. It was a big facility that serve meals to the people who worked in town or people who were off shift and need to go eat. And so it was a huge cafeteria where food was served in great quantities at low price, but when the place sold off, that became pretty passé. You know, people were no longer interested in living like a company town. You're more interested in having clubs built and things like that. And so early on, this Mart building, which was an eating hall mostly, had in the back end of it a little bar with a guy whose name I forget, played a Lowrey organ. And those were the most popular thing in the world with Carmen Miranda and other such names who played that. So we would go down there and dance, or we would go there and have drinks and stuff. And the VFW was popular. And there were other places that got built ultimately. The—what was the Red Robin for a while was earlier on a V-named guy. Anyway, it was a regular commercial eating place. There were places to dance, and there were—something like that. So the early town was pretty much, do it on your—do-it-yourself with your own friends. You didn't get to do anything. A big thing though was the Richland Players, a community acting group, was initiated. And the Richland Light Opera Company, who put on pretty much Broadway musicals, came about. And they did really good work. And Richland Players—I can't recall the names of the plays—but some of the musicals that went on with Richland Light Opera were like Annie Get Your Gun, and Show Boat, the ongoing things. They still produce good plays and good musicals. So that was kind of a way to entertain yourself, and would we spent a lot of time supporting groups like that. Bauman: I wanted to ask you also about things like Atomic Frontier Days or any things like-- Snyder: Oh, okay. When I first came here the Atomic Frontier Days was an annual celebration of the town, very much like any small Western town. And there was a parade, and there is a Miss Frontiers Day elected. And there was the beard growing thing, who could grow the biggest beard. And a little later on, it turned into the Water Follies, which was the whole Tri-Cities, and that was the beginning of the very big scale hydroplane racing, the Unlimiteds. And they raced on the Columbia right out of Kennewick. And so the Frontier Days folded totally, and Tri-City Days, or whatever it's called now, came into being, which is a much more lavish production, much more important. Bauman: I know President Kennedy visited the Hanford site in 1963. Snyder: Right. Bauman: I wondered if you were onsite at the time, if you have any memories of his visit? Snyder: Yeah, he came out to inaugurate the N Reactor. It was the first reactor that was not like the old original reactors that didn't produce any power or anything. The N Reactor both produced plutonium, but it also took the heat off the reactor operations with a big turbine and made electricity. And Kennedy came out—that was a pretty important thing nationwide, at least in the nuclear industry—and told people how great they had done and how important it was. And I didn't go out to it, but many of my friends did. And Kennedy was--everybody really liked President Kennedy—anyway, Democrats did. And I was a Democrat, so that made it one for one. And it was just a big deal. Earlier than that, other Presidents had done things out here, like—oh, the McNary Dam when it was built. I think it was President Eisenhower, may not--might have been a little later that--came out and dedicated that facility. And then even after that, we had President Nixon come and visit. And he landed in his helicopter in the new Battelle buildings, the Battelle research area, which was quite glamorous and very beautiful compared to the old facilities, and gave us a good spiel. And this was while he was still somewhat in vogue, you know, before the Cooks bit and Watergate and things like that. [LAUGHTER] And we all loved him, and we waved him off. And we were glad that he dipped his wings to show that he approved of the place. But so the site later on--and even early on with like the McNary Dam and things--had some national popularity, or some popular awareness at least. A lot of people really never did know of Hanford, and may still not, but at least it's a well--a better-known facility. And its purpose is, I hope, better understood by the public, creating an atomic bomb. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Are there any--were there any incidents, events, things that happened that--during the years working a Hanford that really sort of stand out in your memory? Snyder: It doesn't pop into mind. That's not a good statement is it? [LAUGHTER] But it was pretty much an even-keel life for me. It just flowed nicely. You worked hard, you earned money. But you were not--you didn't become a national figure, and that was okay. It's just—it gave a whole bunch of us--I think the '50s were considered to be the best generation’s support that ever happened. It was a good time, and excuse me, a good time to live. I'm getting cracked up. Bauman: I wonder what you consider, like, the most challenging aspects of working Hanford, and maybe the most rewarding aspects of working there. Snyder: Of course rewarding was earning a living. A satisfaction in what you did, your coworkers, the local community—that was a big plus. No single event that stands out, like I won a Nobel prize or anything like that. [LAUGHTER] But very good, and so that was a very plus thing that stands out. Negative, other than some of the change of the environment, the Cold War ended, thank goodness, and our--the need for Hanford became less, so there was just some less feeling of being critical to the well-being of United States. We still feel it's very important, but not as critical as it was in early days. Bauman: You talked a little bit earlier about the Cold War and the importance of being part of that, sense of patriotism. Snyder: And earlier than the Cold War even. The Korean War, and there were still some wars going on, but no atomic as it was called in those days. No nuclear weapons were required. Bauman: Right. Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War. Snyder: Yeah. Bauman: After the Cold War ended. And they have no memories of it, and know very little about it, so I guess my question would be, what would you like today's younger generation or future generations to know about working at Hanford, Richland during that period? Snyder: I think to some degree Hanford has a negative connotation. And I guess I would like for it to be known--excuse me--Can we just cut it off for a second? Bauman: That’s fine. Snyder: Whoa! Bauman: It's okay. Snyder: I told Peg I might do this. Bauman: Mm-hmm, it’s all right. Snyder: I guess we can go on. I'll compose myself. Bauman: Sure. Snyder: Oh I was--I would like for it to be known that—I can't say it. Bauman: Okay, it’s all right. We can skip to something else if you want. That's fine. Snyder: I don't know. Excuse me. I have no idea why this is becoming so real. Bauman: It's all right. Snyder: Are you leaving, hon? Oh, aren't you going to go to the store? Peg Snyder: Well, I can't get the car out, so we're just going to go a couple of blocks. Bauman: Oh, my car’s in the way. Peg: That's okay. We're going to go in a couple of hours. Snyder: What's wrong with the car? What's wrong with the car? Peg: They’re parked in front of the garage. Bauman: We're parked on your driveway. Snyder: Oh, okay. Man one: But we can--I can move stuff if you want. Peg: No big deal. Snyder: Maybe—are we about wound up, do you think? Bauman: Yes, I just had one or two items—one or two questions. Snyder: I see. Well, I was trying to say, the acceptance of Hanford--the need for it--I would like to be known. Bauman: One of thing I want to ask you about is, I understand you were very involved with the Richland Library. Snyder: Not the Richland Library, no. The Technical Library at Hanford. Bauman: Okay. That's what you were talking about in terms of the declassification. Snyder: Yes. And the provision of technical information—books, reports, anything that provided that. Bauman: Okay, great. All right. Anything that I haven't asked you about that you would like to talk about, that you think be important to talk about? Snyder: No, I think I pretty well covered my relationship at Hanford. It's been a good one. And you've done a good job. Bauman: Well, I want to thank you for talking to me today and letting us come to your house-- Snyder: Oh, sure. Bauman: --and interview you. We really appreciate it. Snyder: You're more than welcome. Bauman: Thanks for-- Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:46:49 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 230 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 703 building 200 East 271-T Area B Plant 100 area 330-233B Area 300 Area 271 Canyon Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site ca1950-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. ca1950-1955; ca1960-1990; Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Fox, John McCormick, Gerry McEwen, Larry Parker, Herb Scott, Art Stevens, Chris Miranda, Carmen Kennedy, John F. Eisenhower, Dwight D. Nixon, Richard Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Wayne Snyder Description An account of the resource An interview with Wayne Snyder conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Hanford Waste Vitrification Plant (Wash.) Hanford Nuclear Site (Wash.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-9-4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-21: Metadata v1 created – [RG] 100 Area 271 Canyon 300 Area 330-233B Area B Plant Building 200 East Building 703 DuPont General Electric Kennedy, John Fitzgerald, 1917-1963 N Reactor Plutonium Finishing Plant Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fa3e95651e43280d6b38df2334d4b9bd7.jpg 93319f909b337694619c948c902056f2 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb112fda002fb452e9c33e5f26f96a121.mp4 04a2a869186085ff62fc580b54df4227 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Bair Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div> <div> Northwest Public Television | Bair_William Robert Bauman: Let's start by just having you say and spell your name. William Bair: Okay. William Bair, B-A-I-R. Bauman: Great, and my name is Robert Bauman, and today is August 14th of 2013, and we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So I thought maybe we could start by having you first tell us what brought you to Hanford, how and when you arrived here. Bair: Okay, well, actually it's kind of ironic because I wouldn't be here or anywhere if it were not for the atomic bomb and the plutonium that was produced here at Hanford. I was in the infantry during World War II in Czechoslovakia, and when the war was over in Europe, we were shipped to the Pacific. We had been trained for amphibious warfare, and when problems got tough over in Europe, they shipped us to Europe instead. So we were prepared and trained for Pacific warfare. And we got down to the Pacific, of course, the bombs had been dropped, and instead of going into Japan as an invasion army, we went in as an army of occupation. I have a few things I remember, but I think I should tell people that is when we got down to the Pacific, as far as I could see, there were ships. The ocean was just covered with ships prepared for the invasion--unbelievable. And then when we get into Japan, we had an opportunity to see what they had prepared for us. The division I was in was responsible for destroying a lot of the munitions, particularly naval munitions that had been stored and ready for the invasion. And a friend and I were sent up in the mountains in Japan. We took over a warehouse that was just full of rifles and all kinds of small arms. So the Japanese were really prepared for us. And I think people should know that, that if we had an invasion, if we had to go in through an invasion, there would have been a terrible loss of life from both sides. The Japanese people would have suffered immensely, and certainly the invasion forces would have suffered. So if anybody wants to argue the point for whether the bomb should have been dropped, I'm happy to take them on. Okay, how I got here--after I got out of the service, I went to Ohio Wesleyan University, got a degree in chemistry, and happened to walk by a bulletin board when I was a senior. I read a notice for fellowships in radiological physics. And I really didn't know a thing about radiological physics. I had applied for graduate school at Ohio State University and was accepted there, but I thought, well, I'll just check this out. So I had to take an exam and pass it and was notified that I had gotten a scholarship or a fellowship at the University of Rochester Medical School. What the training really was health physics. It was the first fellowship classes being funded by the Atomic Energy Commission, at that time, for training in health physics. So I took that for the first year and had some summer training at Brookhaven National Laboratory. And one of the professors, Newell Stannard, by name, asked me if I wanted to stay on as a graduate student and, sure, why not? I still had some GI Bill time left, and so I decided to use it, and so I was there working on a PhD until 1954 and then looking for a job. Well, one of my lab mates had worked here, Hoyt Whipple, he worked for Parker and had left there and gone back to Rochester. Turns out, his father was Dean of the Medical School at Rochester, so I thought he had an interest in going back there. But anyway, I checked around. I had an offer at Oak Ridge, another at Yale, and one out here. And actually it wasn't always the positive, the comments I got about here, but they offered more money, and my wife was pregnant at the time, so that made a big difference. And so that's how I got out here. Bauman: Oh, okay. Now I want to ask a little bit more about that program at Rochester. So this was a fairly new program? Bair: Yes, I was in the second class. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Okay. And so were you one of the first doctoral students there?</div> <div> <div> Bair: Well, the radiation biology was totally new. In fact, when I started that program, they did not have it authorized, and I was in the physiology department at medical school for a couple years until they got it authorized. Now I did receive the first PhD in Radiation Biology there and, I think, in the world. Dr. Stannard always claimed that that was the first one in the world, so I won't argue with him. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] You said you arrived in Hanford in 1954. Bair: Yeah, in September '54. Bauman: And what were your first impressions of the area? Bair: Well, it was kind of interesting. At first, having come from Rochester, New York and lived in Ohio before that, I was amazed to see the big river here with no trees along the shore. I think my first impression, it seemed impossible. So anyway, it was obviously a company town, and that didn't bother me. It wasn't unattractive. Nothing was really negative about it, I can remember anyway. I think that the most negative comment I took back to Barbara was the fact that—the lack of trees. Her father actually was supportive of me coming here because he had been a comptroller at the General Motors plant in Rochester, New York, so he was a company man. So when he found out that General Electric was operating this plant, why, nothing wrong with that. Bauman: [LAUGHTER] He approved. Bair: Right, he approved. Bauman: So you mentioned Richland was a company town sort of place. What was the housing situation at the time? Were you able to find housing right away? Bair: Well, no, all the housing was controlled. There were two types of housing. One, certainly, owned by the government, built by government. Then there was another, I think maybe, two developments, one called Richland Village. Do you know where Richland Village is located? Bauman: Mm-hm. Bair: That had just been built. It was built, I think, by a private company, but I think underwritten by the government in some way. And so we took one of those. In fact, we didn't have a chance at one of the government houses. But after a year there, we did have anopportunity to move into a B house in South Richland, and we lived there until the houses were sold. I can't remember what year that was, but--and we actually bought the B house and converted it to a single unit because we had, by that time, two boys and another one on the way, I think, so we needed more room. Bauman: And do you remember how much you paid for that B house? Bair: I don't, but not very much--$4,000 or $5,000 maybe. I don't know. I think we sold it for $15,000, so we made a little money on it. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So when you came to Hanford then, what sort of work were you doing? Where were you, and what part of the area were you in? Bair: Well, I was I trained as a radiation biologist, and so I was hired by Frank Hungate to work with him in cellular level studies. Actually we were trying to understand the mechanism for radiation causing health effects. And so it was really a pretty basic research. It was genetics, mutagenesis kind of studies I was doing. The theory that we were looking into was whether a radioisotope and carbon genetic material, when it decayed, it would become another element. And in that process, whether it would actually cause a mutation. We had no really positive, but we had some very successive results, but it didn't, certainly, make a big impact on the field. And then, after I was there two years--Barb and I'd agreed that we would stay at least two years; that we felt that was had to--you make a commitment. It's got to have some--we weren’t about to jump ship right away just because of the dust storms. I did have an offer from the University of Illinois back in Champaign, and it would be setting up a new program there on the campus. Fortunately or unfortunately, whichever way you want to look at it, Barb and I went back for an interview in August. Have you ever been to Illinois in August? </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: I lived in Illinois for a couple of years, so, yes. Bair: Oh, okay. Humid, hay fever season--Barb and I were a mess. [LAUGHTER] And so we came back, and I did receive an offer from them. But about that time, the person who was leading the inhalation toxicology program out here at the site died, and so they were replacing him. And since I'd been at the University of Rochester, where much of the pioneering work had been done on inhalation of uranium, things like that, they assumed that I knew something about it. And they offered me the job to stay on and manage that program. Well, with the hay fever situation—it was a good job. I hated to turn it down, in a way, but we did, and so we stayed. Bauman: Do you remember the name of the person who ran the inhalation toxicology before? Bair: Ralph Wager. Bauman: Wager. Bair: Wager--W-A-G-E-R. He was a physician. I had I met him, but he didn't live much longer after I got here. I think he was a very capable person. Bauman: So how large was the inhalation toxicology program? How many people were involved in that? Bair: When I took it over, there was three and a secretary. [LAUGHTER] And I was the only PhD. The other two were--one had a master's degree. I'm not sure the other one did. And then I think that's all. So we started out scratch. These were good guys. Really, I couldn't have been better off. I couldn't have asked for better people to start out a program, even though they didn't have the degrees. Lou Temple had studied histology. He was very good. He would qualify for a lot of pathology work. And Don Willard was a, I think, he was probably a primary chemist, but he was a--do you know the term Rube Goldberg? Bauman: Mm-hmm. Bair: Okay, he was a Rube Goldberg. You'd tell him what you wanted, he’d make it happen. He could do all kinds of things with nothing, in the shop or the lab or whatever. And we were inventing new territory. There was no technology, no publications showing us how to develop the technology, to build the technology, to expose animals to highly radioactive materials, which we had to do. And so he was largely responsible for putting all that stuff together. And engineers would look at him and shake their head, the trained engineers, but they couldn't do it. He could. [LAUGHTER] But we had a lot of help from other people on site. There were aerosol physicists working in other programs; they were able to help us. One good thing about the lab at that time was that they really believed in statistics, and they had statisticians assigned to us. And I'd come from the University of Rochester, where they really did preach the value of statistics in doing your research. You talk to a statistician before you start your experiment. You have them involved in designing your experiment, and that way they are way ahead of the game when it comes to interpreting the results. So anyway, that's how we got started. We had a certain advantage, in sense. We had, at that time, a program out there where we had military veterinarians coming in for training programs. So that gave us an opportunity to have an extra set of very qualified hands, and so we had and several veterinarians working with us on the program. And I think that--I can't remember the first one I hired. I think I hired a physiologist, a PhD physiologist. Then I needed a veterinarian because, I think, the military program was closing down. And I had a friend at Ohio State University. He had been a fraternity brother at Ohio Wesleyan, so I called him. He was at the vet school at Ohio State, and I asked him if he had any graduates who might be candidates for a job. Well, he had several, and so I went back to Columbus to interview these guys. And one, Jim Park was, I thought, the best one. He didn't have the best grades, but he was just came across as being the person I wanted. But there was a little bit of a problem, I thought—possible problem. He came from my hometown. And you know, you hire somebody from your hometown, it doesn't work out. The town, probably 8,000 or 10,000 people, word gets around. So anyway, I decided to take a chance. He decided to also take a chance, and it was probably one of the best decisions as a manager I ever made because he worked out very well. In fact, he worked on until he retired. In fact, he just died this last January. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: It was Jim Park? Bair: Jim Park, yeah. Bauman: So what was the home town? Where was it? Bair: Bellefontaine, Ohio. Do you know that area? Bauman: I do not know that area. I was born in Ohio, but I don't know where that is. Bair: Okay, well, it's between Lima and Dayton, right in a straight line. Bauman: So you said that this group started out very small. How much did it grow during the time that you were-- Bair: Well, during the time I managed that, which was probably ‘til about '68, I know we must have had--I can't remember--maybe ten, 15 people probably. I'd had foreign scientists visiting. I had one from Turkey, another from Japan during that period. That's probably about right. Bauman: And so, the inhalation toxicology program, I guess, could you explain what sorts of things you were doing? Experiments and studies, whatever-- Bair: Sure, well, it turns out that the most common—the most frequent way people were being exposed on the plant—the workers being exposed on a plant to things like plutonium, particularly, was by inhalation--airborne plutonium in the processing plant and everywhere else they worked with it. And so not much was known about plutonium at the time, essentially nothing, because it's a new element. And there'd been injection studied at Berkeley, California at University California, Berkeley and other places, where they took amounts and injected it into experimental animals intravenously and sometimes just through the skin. These were not really duplicating the kind of exposure that people were having, because the people were breathing it. And so we had to do some research to find out where it goes and what the effects might be. At that time, we--I say we, meaning the scientific community--suspected that things like plutonium would cause lung cancer, but there was no experimental evidence, and no human subjects, there were no human exposures that had ever resulted in lung cancer. The main evidence we had for radiation causing lung cancer occurred in miners, particularly starting in Germany and Czechoslovakia. The hard rock miners were developing lung cancer beginning way back in turn of the century. And it wasn't until the 1920s they finally identified it was radon, the radioactive radon gas. It was causing lung cancer in these miners. So then, of course, with the development of the atomic energy program in the United States, there was a lot of uranium mining going on, and they were already beginning to see evidence of increasing lung cancer in some of the miners down in Utah and places like that. So there was reason to be suspicious, but there was no experimental evidence that it would happen. And so our studies there actually with beagle dogs showed that actually you could inhale enough plutonium to cause lung cancer. And I say enough, because we certainly showed that very small amounts would not do it. You had to reach some--I can't--you want to use the word threshold, but we don't know whether that's right, but some level amount before we would see those kinds of effects occurring. Our first studies were with mice. We actually put radioactive material and injected it into their trachea, and we had no effects there in those cases. As I said, we had the Air Force and military veterinarians on site. One of them was Jack Healey, who was then returned back to Sandia base. And then Air Force was very interested in plutonium for obvious reasons, because they carried weapons around that contained plutonium. And they contracted us to do some studies on the early effects of people inhaling plutonium oxide, the weapons grade plutonium. And they wanted us to use beagle dogs. Beagle dogs were an ideal experimental animal. They had been used at Cornell University in studies there. There was a big study at Utah, in which they were actually injecting plutonium and uranium and thorium into beagle dogs. Down at Davis, California, a veterinary school there, they had a large program using beagle dogs for external radiation. So beagle dogs were an ideal animal for research. So we did sign the contract with the Air Force to start the study with beagle dogs. And I think about two or three years in the study, we found the first lung cancer. And the lung cancer was rather unique because it was rather—it occurred down deep in the lungs where the plutonium was located. Plutonium is an alpha emitter. The radiation from plutonium only travels a few cell diameters. So wherever that material is located, the tissue around that's going to be pretty heavy irradiated. So if you have too much there, you're going to kill the cells. But if you don't have enough there, you're lessening the chance of having the kind of reaction that would result in the cancer occurring down the road. We'd had other findings. We found that one of the early effects of inhaling something like plutonium was a decrease in the circulating lymphocytes. And I don't think we ever have worked out the mechanism for that happening, but amongst all these animals that had a sufficient amount of plutonium would show an early decrease in the circulating lymphocytes. Now I'll just stop here a second. I mentioned Frank Hungate who hired me. He was working there, working at the time, and we had discussions about that and thought, well, maybe this could be used in some helpful way. Thought that if you could use this in some way to knock down the lymphocytes and knock down the immune system in organ transplant people or even treat leukemia patients, it would be worth looking into. So Frank Hungate did develop an implantable blood irradiator that had radioisotopes in it and that you could actually implant into a person and run the blood vessel through it, so you're irradiating on a continuous basis the circulating blood. He had that and implanted it in dogs and in goats. He had had considerable interest from the commissions, but not enough money was put up to take it much further than that. So it never got into clinical trials. Anyway, that's a spin-off from that kind of research. Another we found, too, is that the plutonium was very insoluble, and so it was just like an insoluble metal. And it would accumulate when it was inhaled into the lungs. The clearance mechanism would actually move that plutonium into the lymph nodes. There are a number of lymph nodes throughout the lungs of man, but most of the effective ones are right around the bifurcation of the bronchi. And we found that the concentration of plutonium in these lymph nodes was, after a short time, was much higherthan the concentration in any of the tissue of the lungs. So this was a mechanism to protect the individual because we never saw any primary cancers originating in lymphatic tissue in any animal. So we had thousands of animals in our experiment. So that was a very interesting finding. And while I'm on the subject of plutonium, we also did some studies with plutonium-238, which is another isotope of plutonium. The 239 is used in the weapons, and the 238 is a shorter half-life plutonium. The plutonium-239 has a half-life of about 24,000 years. So, in a sense, it's not very radioactive. But plutonium-238 has a half-life, I think, of something like 80 years. It's very reactive--radioactive. In fact, it's so radioactive that it's hot, thermally hot. And if you take a particle of it—and we did see this frequently—and have it in a plastic, like Plexiglas, it would actually melt down into that, it was so hot. We did experiments with some of those particles, and they essentially melted tissue, but I don't think we ever saw any serious effects of the material. But the interesting thing about plutonium-238 was when you had the same form, oxide form, insoluble form, and animals inhaled it, it did not remain in the lungs or lymph nodes very long. More of it started to become soluble and move to the liver and other tissues like the skeleton. Well, at that time, this is in the early '60s, NASA and the Air Force were using plutonium-238 as a heat source in thermoelectric generators. They use them in space vehicles. They use solar panels for some of them, but this was a source that could be totally contained in a space vehicle. In fact, a number of those out in space are powered with plutonium-238. But they'd had—when they first started that program, they had a failure or two. I think one of them is called a SNAP device. I don't remember what that stands for—Space Nuclear something Program. But it burned up on reentry out in the Pacific, and the fuel at that time was pretty soluble, and it just spread all over the Earth. Everybody inhaled it--very small amounts. It's like fallout from weapons testing. And when we began to show them what the problem was with plutonium-238 oxides, they decided they’d better change their fuel source. And from there, they developed another one. It was actually a ceramic that was almost indestructible. It would withstand high temperature fires. So we did contribute to--our results did contribute to the space program and to the use of plutonium-238 as a heat source in these thermoelectric generators. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: I was going to ask you about—so, how were these inhalation experiments conducted in terms of the dogs? How were they--how did they inhale the—I guess what were the specifics of that? Bair: Okay. All right, well, like I said already, we had to develop all this technology. And the important issue—well, several important issues--one, we had to do it without contaminating ourselves, and the second is we wanted to be able to control the amount they inhaled or at least to be able to measure it. First thing, it meant that in order to protect ourselves, we had to do it within a glovebox containment of some kind. So we had to work through gloves and all that kind of stuff. So then first, we started working with rodents, and we started mostly with mice and then rats. We got a plastic cylinder. We had good shops here at Hanford. They would build a plastic cylinder, probably that much in diameter, any height we wanted. And then we'd drill holes all around. The aerosol would be administered at the top, and we had a continuous airflow through it, and the exhaust would go through several different kinds of filters to make sure that none of it got out. Then we found that in order to contain the rats, for example, there was nothing better than the old fashioned Coke bottle. You know what I talking about--the Coke? Okay, well, we cut the bottoms off the Coke bottles, and that expanded area just was ideal for the lungs area of the rats. So we could put the rat in the bottle, put a rubber stopper in the back, and they were totally comfortable and could breathe very easily. And then we just plugged these bottles into these holes in the chamber. And then, of course, we collected aerosol samples during all this time, so we could actually get some idea of how much they were breathing. And then we also collected samples that we could characterize in terms of particle size. And that's one of the findings we did come up with, and we found that the particle size, the size of these particles, had a lot to do where the material deposited in the lungs and how long they stayed there and so forth. Bauman: So how did that work with the dogs then? </div> </div> <div>Bair: And with the dogs. We taught the dogs to sit with a mask on their face, and the mask then was connected to the chamber. And the dogs were in their own little glovebox, actually, attached to the main glove box, which had the aerosol chamber around it. Dogs are really lovely to train. You can train them to do anything, if you want to, and we had so many veterinarians around. And actually the lifespan--the average lifespan of our dogs, even the ones on experiment, far exceeded the average lifespan of dogs in the public sector because they had so much care, and they had--well, some of them had weekly physical exams and 24/7 care.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: And so how long were you involved, then, with the inhalation toxicology, running that program? Bair: Well, I think about it was about 1968 when Dr. Kornberg moved to another position. Dr. Kornberg had been hired by Herb Parker in 1947 to come here and take over the management of the biology program. This included the health and environmental sciences. And in about 1968, he took another position in the laboratory, and by that time, Battelle had come in and replaced General Electric. And I was fortunate enough to replace Dr. Kornberg as manager of the biology department, and that's when my hands-on research kind of went down the tube. Bauman: [LAUGHTER]So how large of a department was that then in 1968? Bair: I don't know. I would say--I think I have it on my cheatsheet, okay? Bauman: That’s fine. Bair: Actually, I didn't think about that. Yes, 214 people, or 200 people. And started out with a size of a group, I said here was two, and it grew to about 21 when they left the program. Bauman: And so you said you weren't really doing research yourself then. Bair: No, I was shuffling papers then. But I still wrote papers and certainly was working with the scientists who were doing the hands-on stuff, obviously. Bauman: Yeah, so what sorts of things was the department doing in general? Bair: When Battelle came in, things changed quite a bit. Before that, almost all of our research was directed toward Hanford production problems. I should mention a few, if it's okay. I think some of the most important work had to do with developing biokinetic models for the radionuclides. We had to develop--the protection was based on dose to people and individual organs. So, they had to develop models to describe where the radioactive materials would go when they went into the body. So a lot of work was done to develop these models. Another big program was in studying the ingestion of radioactive materials like plutonium. It was necessarily to know what percentage, what fraction of the material that you ate and went through GI tract would be absorbed. It turns out that you can eat a lot of plutonium without having very much of it go into your body. I think I tried to duplicate with some material, once, a big chunk before you'd ever have any health effects resulting from it. It's just so insoluble. Then another major program was developing methods to treat people who might be contaminated. We called it decorporation, trying to remove the—particularly plutonium—traces in the body's tissues. It's there. It's staying. You have to go to extreme means sometimes to get it to move out and excrete it. And that's what you want to do because you're reducing the dose in the process. So that really started pretty early on in the early '50s and then by John Blue and several others. Morris Sullivan came on about same time I did, and he kind of latched onto ingestion route of intake, studying the absorption across the gut wall, and also effects of ingestion of radioactive materials. That contributed a lot to the models used today. You'll see his papers referenced in many of the publications. Then the other was, as I mentioned, decorporation. The program was started on a small scale before I arrived, and another scientist, Vic Smith, arrived shortly afterwards. He was from Montana. He was a chemist and still here, incidentally. He went on and started working on that program and was very successful, and it was very important. It really paid off when we had that accident out at the 200 Areas, when a man by McCluskey was exposed to a big dose of americium. Vic Smith synthesized the DTPA, the drug to treat this man. So it really couldn't have been more timely. We had a guy here who could synthesize the drug and tailor fit it to the treatment. And actually today, it is the recognized treatment for any intake, accidental intake of many heavy elements like plutonium. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: And so you were—you directed the biology department beginning in 1968? Bair: Yeah, I think it was about that time. Bauman: How long did you do that, then? Bair: I'm using my cheatsheet here. I can't remember. Yeah, it's about 1973. Okay, 1973, then it changed. The department was actually--I can't remember if it was still the AEC then or not. I think it might have been. They wanted somebody whose full attention would be paid to their programs here. So--[COUGH] excuse me. Maybe I should take a break and you can edit this out. They wanted somebody, I said, to have a full sense, a full-time responsibility of paying attention to their programs. And so Ed Alpen, who was the director at that time, convinced me that I should be the one to do that. And initially, I actually went back and worked half time at Germantown headquarters. That was not a good time for us. We had two boys in high school and another one in junior high school. It was a tough time for Barbara especially, because I would fly back to Washington, work for two weeks, come back here for two weeks, back and forth, and back and forth for—gosh—over a half a year. And then, finally, I took the position. By that time, they had a replacement for me as manager of the bio department, because I was actually doing, I think, three jobs at the time. And so then I was full-time director of the Life Science program, which included the environmental programs, the atmospheric sciences--everything that they funded. And I did that for several years—for a long time actually. Well, the title changed and some of the other things changed with it, but I did essentially that same job until about 1986, when they reorganized and the Life Sciences Center was formed, and I assumed responsibility for the Life Sciences. And that included toxicology, health physics, epidemiology, molecular biology, did I say toxicology?—some radiological physics. It was a broad-base health, medical program. It included considerable medical research too. Bauman: That must have been a fairly large group. Bair: I think I had something like 500 people. Bauman: And you did that until when? Bair: I did that until—well, I was trying to retire, but, why, they wouldn't let me retire until they got a replacement. And so I think I did that until '94, I think it was. I should send say something about Bill Wiley. Do you know the name? Bauman: Sure, yeah. Bair: Bill Wiley was a biologist. He was a molecular biologist. And I was manager of the biology department at the time, and his supervisor, his boss of that section, was moved to Seattle, up to the Battelle Center at Seattle. Yeah, it was the doings of people back in Columbus, the Indians, somebody over there. So he went over there. So I needed a replacement, so I twisted Bill Wiley's arm to take that job. He didn't want do it. [LAUGHTER] But I finally convinced him, that was the thing to do. And so I really lost a good scientist, but obviously the laboratory at Hanford got a darn good manager, and that worked out well. Eventually, I think he resigned himself to it, and was happy it went that way. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So I was going to ask you a few questions. At some point, Hanford shifted from focus on production to focus on cleanup. Bair: Mm-hmm. Bauman: I was wondering how that shift impacted the sorts of things you did, or the people who were working with you at all? Bair: No, I pretty much--I don't remember much of that happening until after I left. I know there was some concern out at the Tank Farm because there was some toxic gases coming off, and they were interested in our helping to try to identify them. But the cleanup hadn't really gotten--at least we were not involved in the-- Bauman: If I go back a little farther, President Kennedy visited Hanford in 1963. Bair: Who? Bauman: President Kennedy. Bair: Okay. Bauman: I wondered if you had memories of his visit at all—were you here, did you go to that? Bair: No, I don't really--no, I don't remember much about that time. I can't remember. I remember his coming, but I don't remember--I didn't see him. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Okay. What do you think were the most challenging aspects of the work you did at Hanford, and then what were sort of the most rewarding parts of it? Bair: Well, probably the most challenging probably was not the science. It was what you had to put with as a manager. [LAUGHTER] I think I was happier as a scientist than I was as a manager. I probably ticked off a lot of the people who were providing support. Because I was probably not—they probably didn't view me as the most cooperative in many ways. But it was frequently frustrating. I know I had considerable issues with the team at salary time, because people in the salary administration didn't always agree with my assessment of performances of some of my staff. So I had to fight a lot of battles there. I had some successes. One of them I have to tell you about is that during the '60s, we were out at 100-F Area; the biology labs were out there. And during the '60s we were really trying to get new laboratories built in the 300 Areas. And we had everything going great for us, a design and everything, and all we needed done was the final authorization, the money. And it was around Christmas time. I don't remember exactly which year it was now--probably, I can't remember, '68, '69 maybe, '70. The local Kiwanis Club met at our house for a Christmas party. And Sam Volpentest was there. Do you know the name Sam Volpentest? And he came up and said, Bill, how's that new laboratory coming? And I said, it wasn't. I said that Nixon had sequestered the funds. You know the name sequester, that word? I don't think I'd heard it. I'd never heard it before that, or I don't think I've heard it since then until recently. But the money was sequestered by Nixon. Well, Sam said, well, you know, I'm going to be in Washington next week. I'll see what I can do. And I think it was within two weeks, that money was turned loose, and we got our building. He made a believer out of me, and probably a lot of other people though the years. So, I felt that was a success. Bauman: Any other events that stand out to you as look back at your years at the Hanford or incidents or strange occurrences or unique things that kind of happened? </div> </div> <div> <div> Bair: Well, I know we had a few threats of a union strike. And since we were way out there, we spent a few nights sleeping on the autopsy table because we had to have somebody there in case something happened. But it wasn't until much later though, that we had any union members, the animal caretakers, I think, not until after we moved in here did they join the union. So most of the people working out there, scientists, scientific staff, were not union. But the craftsmen were, so we dealt with them. We had no problems working with those people. We just had to obey the rules. I remember one situation. We were—well, we talked about beagle dogs. I'll tell you how we got those. At first we tried buying them. And when you buy anything in the government, you have to go out and bid, and the lowest bid wins. Well, I remember one shipment of dogs came in—beagle dogs came in. Those dogs are about that high. They had the longest legs of any beagles I'd ever seen or could even imagine. I don't know what they were called. So we shipped those back. But after a few episodes like that, we decided we had to raise our own dogs, so we developed our own colony. We had three strains of beagles. We got some from Davis, California. Actually, Washington State had a beagle colony over there, I forgot to mention that. And we got another source from I can't remember where else. We had three strains, so we can minimize the inbreeding, and we did have a geneticist down in Portland who would guide us in our breeding program so we wouldn't have any problems that way. Let’s see. What else was I going to mention? I can't remember now what else. Woman one: Bill, can I ask you something? Bair: Yeah. Woman one: So Gary Peterson always tells me to ask you about the alligators out there? Bair: Oh, jeez. Woman one: [LAUGHTER] Bair: Gary was a neighbor. Of course, I knew him when I worked out there too. He was one of the guys I used to bug. Well, there was an aquatic physiologist out there who had gotten some alligators. He was going to do some radiation studies with them. But before he could get started, he left for another job. But while he was there, he did have alligators in the pond out behind the lab out there. It was not too far from the Columbia River. And I think one of them got loose, went into the Columbia River, and some fisherman found it, turned it into a sports' shop downtown, and it was displayed and all that kind of fuss, all that kind of stuff. And then when he left, being a radiation biologist, I knew that nothing was known the sensitivity of alligators to radiation. So I said, well, rather than having them destroyed, I'll take them. So I volunteered to take them, used the same facilities. Except I thought that we ought to beef it up a little bit. So there was a chain-link fence around it, and we had plywood put around also and wired to it. And then, for some reason, those alligators were able to squeeze those boards apart and get loose. Well, there were five of them that had got loose. Three of them were irradiated, and two of them were controls. Well, I talked to, I think, probably Gary Peterson. He was in public relations at the time. And we agreed that it would smart this time, rather than let somebody find them, we will report it to the media. So we did. But at the time, it was not very good because we were still working for General Electric at that time. So that dates it then for us. That night a Vice President from General Electric arrived in town. He got up the next morning and looked at the newspaper. There it was--big headlines--alligators released to the Columbia River by General Electric scientists and all that kind of stuff. And he raised hell. He jumped on W. Johnson, who was the plant manager. He jumped on Herb Parker, who worked for him, and he jumped on Harry Kornberg, who was my boss. So guess who—so I was ordered to put out a search team on the Columbia River until we found those alligators, and we did. I had a crew go out every day. And every week, every Friday, I had to turn in a report. They went to W. Johnson what we did to find the alligators. Well, at that time, the reactors were operating. So water along the shore was still pretty warm from the cooling water, and so the alligators kind of hung along the shore. I think we caught all but two. I think there was one control left and one irradiated. I figured the irradiated one died. But sure enough, in process, I think another alligator crawled up by a fisherman. I can't remember now. But I think maybe by the end of the year, we had gone out. We never found anymore alligators, and so there was still those two missing. And I finally got a note back from Parker saying I could relax the hunt for the alligators. But, you know, in subsequent years, I had calls from people. I had a call from some Wildlife guy over on the other side of the river. That was back--gosh, that must have been in the '80s. He wanted to know what I knew about alligators in the Columbia River. I said “nothing,” and hung up. [LAUGHTER] And then there was another one, I think, more recent than that. I can't remember now. But that's the story of the alligators. Well, actually, it was interesting, also, the alligators were really not very sensitive to radiation. But we did find that the sensitivity varied with the temperature at which the alligators were kept. If you put them in warmer water, the effects were magnified, were increased. So their metabolism had a lot to do with the effects occurring in these cold blooded animals, which no surprise there. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So what was the time period when this happened? Bair: Well, it was the early '60s, so it was before General Electric. So it must have been like '63 probably. Bauman: I wanted to ask you another question, too, about these inhalation studies. You mentioned earlier that beagles were sort of ideal for this. What made them ideal? Was it their trainability? Bair: Their size. Their trainability. Because an awful lot of data had been collected by other laboratories on their physiology and biochemistry, diseases, everything. So we didn't have to do all that background work. We had it already--the pathology, everything. All we had to do was to go to the literature. So they were made to order. Another animal would have been more ideal in terms of respiratory tract. Believe it or not, a horse's respiratory tract is more like man's than most of the other species. We looked into getting miniature horses, but, well, that didn't go very far. They were going to be too expensive. I should say--you didn't mention anything about the swine, about the pigs we had out there. One of the early studies out there, of course, was studies on radioiodine. I'm going to mention sheep first. When Parker came here, he knew that there was going to be a problem with radioiodine being released because he'd seen that happen on Oak Ridge. And so he had the experimental animal farm, which was led by Leo Bustad. We haven't mentioned Leo, but I should, because he was a graduate veterinarian from Washington State University, and he was hired here in '48, I think, by Parker. He worked here until the mid '60s, and then he went down to Davis, California for several years, quite a few years. Then he became dean of the Vet School over at WSU. So roundabout--and, in fact, there's a building with his name on it, the vet school. Anyway, his first job was to do studies on the uptake and effects of radioiodine in sheep. And the sheep, because they were raising animals in the area, and there was obvious concern about what would happen if they got into the sheep. There were also cattle. They did a study with cattle. Those were very important studies because there were claims later on from people and farmers, sheep farmers in Utah about sheep being exposed to fallout. While the results from the lab here from Leo’s studies really proved that it was not radiation. They were eating a toxic weed that caused the death of those sheep. The farmers, I don't think they believe us yet. But that's really what happened. We also did studies with pigs, because, as Leo said, you could take the GI tract of a pig and put it next to a GI tract from a man, and you'd never be able to distinguish the two. They looked exactly the same, so they did ingestion studies with pigs. Now, they have developed a miniature pig that would weigh, when it was full size, about 180 pounds. A standard man—a standard man for most calculations, is considered to be 180-pound man. And then he also developed a miniature white pig for skin studies. So he could—white skin is obviously better for skin studies than a normal pig color skin. Anyway, I need to mention those two studies because they were very important. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: So those were in inhalations? Bair: They were not inhalation. We did try an inhalation experiment with sheep, with iodine-131 at one time, and only once. A sheep has no control over its bodily functions. It was a mess. Bauman: So you were involved with that program until about 1968. How long did the inhalation studies continue? Bair: They continued--in fact, they developed into a very profitable toxicology program, inhalation toxicology program at Battelle, and I think it's just now recently closed down. So it got off to a good start and had a long run. Bauman: And how about the animal studies in general, how long did those continue? Was there ever any sort of opposition to that from the public at all? Bair: No, actually, we fared very well. Our veterinarians were very astute about those kinds of situations. Our public relations people, Gary Peterson and his people, they would talk to us before they responded to anything, so we worked together to avoid problems. And we thought we would have, when we moved our dogs into the 300 Area because you could hear them bark on certain days. But we never had a [INAUDIBLE]. None of these outfits got to us, and they were over in Seattle. They caused problems over there--PETA and those people. Bauman: Obviously security was a very important part of Hanford site. I'm assuming you had special security clearance. I wonder if security impacted your work at all? Bair: No, it really didn't. I think the first impact was when people came here for an interview. We were interviewed at the hotel. And we never saw where we were working until we got here. Have you ever been out to 100-F Area? Bauman: A long time ago. Bair: A long time ago. Okay, well, it looks like a prison. No windows. So first the first thought when you go in there, your first day of work, you know, what am I getting into? But inside it was a really good lab. But that was a first impression. The security, of course, we had the security clearance, and we had to have every paper we published cleared by the security people. Parker, I think, he read everything that we published, and then the security people went over it. The only thing that they objected to was anything that referenced the amount of radioactive material that went into the river, concentrations of radionuclidesin the Columbia River, any releases or anything like that. Because they felt that that was a possible way of somebody finding out how much plutonium was being produced. I don't know how, but I'm sure there were people monitoring the temperature and things like that. Bauman: You mentioned earlier--you mentioned Herbert Parker. Are you involved with the Parker Foundation, and or have you been? Bair: Well, I founded it. </div> </div> <div>Bauman: Right, so do you want to talk about that some?</div> <div> <div> Bair: Yeah, I knew Herb from the day I arrived here, and he was a tough manager—really tough. He didn't give you any slack. [LAUGHTER] Things had to be just right, and people who did stupid things had a tough time with him. But he insisted on quality, integrity. He really, really had high standards for everything we get did out there. And he supported our research fully. As I said before, I think he read everything we wrote, so he knew what was going on. He also was a strong supporter of a symposium series that we put together, back in about—it started about 1960. We had an annual symposia in biology and included the environmental sciences, too. He was a strong supporter of that. I worked with him. He was my boss at one time. I worked with him very much in the Institutional Review Board, setting up a human subjects kind of a review. So when he died, I felt that he ought to be recognized in some way, and I knew, of course, that he has interest in education, and so I talked to a couple people at PNNL, the controller of the time, I think it was--I can't remember who it was. [INAUDIBLE], I think—and decided to go in and set it up as a not-for-profit. It wasn't associated with Battelle or anybody else, a not-for-profit foundation. We went to the state and got all that approved and so forth. Then the whole idea was to have an annual lecture sponsored by the Parker Foundation to coincide with the symposia each year. And so we did that for a number of years. Then, when I retired, I felt that there was a good chance that Battelle was not going to be around forever because their contract was limited. And Battelle was helping us fund the lectures, so their money, their support was helpful--very important, actually. So I talked to Doug Olesen, who was head of Battelle at the time and he agreed that there ought to be some way of being sure it was maintained in perpetuum some way. So I talked Jim Cochran, who was--he wasn't called Chancellor, I don't think, was he? Bauman: Dean, it was Dean. Bair: Dean, yeah, and I was amazed at his enthusiasm. [LAUGHTER] I thought I was going to have to sell something, but I didn't. And Ron Waters, at the time, was on board. He had replaced me. So we talked to Jim, and he explained, and the rules haven't changed to this day, as far as I know. He told us that we had to get $25,000 before we could actually have it identified as a separate entity within the foundation, and so that was our initial goal. So that's taken off, and a number of other people have joined the board, and several of them have died, of course, through the years. And I'm hopeful that it will continue, because not only for the fact that I want to see Parker continue to be recognized for what he did here, but I think it has an opportunity to provide some real benefits to the WSU and the community. So it's kind of, in a sense, now a dual thing. We have the fund which is associated with the WSU foundation, but then we also have the foundation as a state—whatever the terminology is. So we can operate independently if we need to. If we want to do something that WSU may not want to be associated with, I don't what it would be, but anyway. Bauman: Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Bair: Mm-hmm. Probably that’s true. Bauman: And I teach a course on the Cold War. Bair: Oh, great. Bauman: For some of them it's something they did not live through at all. So I wonder if you could talk about, especially in thinking about future generations or even the current young generation, who wouldn't really have lived through the Cold War, what do you think is important for them to know about working at Hanford, especially during this Cold War period? </div> </div> <div>Bair: Well, there was certainly visual evidence of the Cold War, because when we moved here, they had anti-aircraft guns sitting out here, and they eventually had missile sites and all that. But as far as the program's concerned, I think the only thing that reminded us of it was the security and the classification. But during that period, I attended meetings in Vienna and other places and interacted with Russian colleagues and exchanged publications, information, without any problems at all. I do remember that one time that I came back from a meeting where I had met with Russian colleagues, and I don't know whether it was the CIA or some agency wanted me to come down and talk to them about my impressions of the Russian side of it all. And I didn't think it was appropriate, because I thought that was essentially making spies out of scientists. We squared off. They understood my position, and I understood theirs, so it was no—I think that for the most part, scientists are pretty much engaged in the science itself. Because we were doing things that no one has ever done and first time, really. Every experiment was publishable, which is unbelievable. But through the years, I really had some wonderful opportunities, many of them associated with the Cold War. Infact, I was involved with the Chernobyl accident. I guess I was part of the Cold War. Well, I can tell you about that, if you want me to.</div> <div> <div> Bauman: Yeah, if you would. Bair: Okay. Well, when the Chernobyl accident occurred, we had, at that time, the atmospheric sciences people had a couple of airplanes here. And I heard some indication that that cloud from that accident was coming this direction. So we put those planes up to collect samples all the way down the coast. And since that was part of my program at the time, I had a lot of interest in the possibility of doing that. And I had full support of the people back in headquarters. People downtown here weren't all that enthusiastic about it, but I had support from the people who were paying the bill. And so we got some the first information about the fallout from Chernobyl coming down to the United States here. And then I was involved in meetings in Vienna and also at Chernobyl and looking at the health aspects and predictions of health aspects. I chaired a committee for the DOE at that time of scientists looking at the health environmental aspects of it and put out a report or so. Bauman: So you essentially worked at Hanford for almost 40 years, roughly. Bair: Well, I started in '54, and '64. Bauman: Ended upin like '94, something like that? Bair: That’s right, '54 to '94. Bauman: You must have seen a lot of changes take place. I'm wondering, what were some of the more significant changes you saw take place both at Hanford and maybe even in the community of Richland itself? Bair: Well, I think the biggest change in Hanford, and then I'd say, several ways--maybe I can just start. One change is that when General Electric was here, we had one management, one boss. It was the plant boss, okay? And I’ve looked at since then, can anybody count the number of bosses we have here in this place now? I don't know how they keep track of everything that's going on. It's so spread out and so—So fortunately, I haven't had to deal with any of that, but I've just seen it happen. It seems like it’s impossible. And I mentioned that to Doc Hastings once, and he said, well, it's a lot more complicated now. Well, you know, I think about what could be more complicated than building reactors and producing plutonium and separating it all out for the first time? So anyway. Then the other thing, of course, from the Battelle standpoint, is that the program has diversified. So we've had people doing all kinds of things, and it started during my time. We had big chunk of the artificial heart program at one time, using pigs. In fact, people don't know this, I'm sure, that some of the basic research done for ultrasound--you go in for a ultrasound these days--some of the basic work was really down here by Mel Sycoff, who was a biologist who did work on neonatal and fetal systems, and John Dykeman and Percy Hildebrand, they were the engineers setting up the system. That was the basic work for it. I don't know what happened. I assume Battelle must have gotten some patents and sold them to somebody. Then also some of the veterinarians got involved with the material sciences. People who developed the tooth implants and also implants for joints. They developed a complex metal void system. It was like a metal sponge with lots of holes in it. I can't remember whether it was zirconium or what kind of metal it was now. But so the bone tissue would grow into it, and you wouldn't have to use glue and cements like they use now. Same thing with tooth implants, same kind of system. So the bone would actually grow in. And they had implanted these in pigs. Now can you imagine any human having a stronger bite than a pig?[LAUGHTER] So those really were very well supported tooth implants. So there was a number of outgrowths of the program that paid off. </div> </div> <div> <div> Bauman: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about or anything you haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you would like to talk about? Bair: While I was managing these programs, I did get involved in a number of activities off-site. [INAUDIBLE]. Well, I'll mention a couple of them. I got involved in the Marshall Islands situation. You know, the Marshall Islands where they conducted the weapons tests? There was one particular island where they had done these one-point detonations where they did--it was called safety shots where they were just detonating a weapon and spewing plutonium all over the place. It was not a nuclear detonation. It was just a chemical detonation, in a sense. So the Army was involved in trying to clean that up, and so I got involved in chairing a committee that was going to advise them on how they should do that and so forth. So that was a kind of an interesting experience. I got to ride helicopters all around the islands out there and sleep in the admiral's quarters. [LAUGHTER] Actually, they built a dome over one of the craters, after they hauled the contaminated dirt and dumped it in one of the craters. Then they filled it in with concrete. Anyway, I went out there one day in a helicopter and landed on top of it--that dome. So I had some cool experiences that way. And the Marshallese were concerned about their health and the health of their children as a result of being exposed to all that. So the Department of Energy wanted to write some booklets to try and explain to them what the health risks were. And so I, with two other people, Jackie Lee from Los Alamos, and a scientist from DOE, we co-authored three books, one on Bikini, one on Eniwetok, and one on the Northern Marshall Islands, trying to describe in the Marshallese language what the risk was for those people living there and their descendants and so forth, and try to explain what happened. We worked with a missionary from the Marshall Islands. She was a—I can't remember what church. She had translated the Bible into one of the languages out there, so she worked with us. And also we had an editor from here, Ray Ballman, who lives across the river here. He actually has a PhD in French. That didn't make him able to speak Marshallese, but he understood how you translate. And so the book was actually written in Marshallese and translated into English. So we the books actually had the Marshallese language version and in paragraphs below that, the English. I don't know whether it to helped the Marshallese understand the situation or not, but it was, I think, a worthwhile effort and certainly very interesting to work with those people. I have a lot of respect for those Marshallese people who were essentially pushed off their land. Bauman: What time period was this, 1950s? Bair: This was--I did this work in the 1980s. Bauman: Oh, in the 1980s. </div> </div> <div>Bair: Yeah. The lawyers, by that time, had gotten out there and stirred things up, so the Marshallese were really very, very concerned about everything.</div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 218 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 200 Area 300 Area 100-F Area Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1954-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1954-1980 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Stannard, Newell Whipple, Hoyt Bair, Barbara Hungate, Frank Parker, Herb Wager, Ralph Park, Jim Blue John Sullivan, Morris Smith, Vic Alphen, Ed Wiley, Bill Volpentest, Sam Peterson, Gary Kornberg, Harry Olsen, Doug Cochran, Jim Waters, Ron Sycoff, Mel Dykeman, John Hildebrand, Percy Lee, Jackie Ballman, Ray Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Bair Description An account of the resource An interview with William Bair conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Health aspects--Washington (State)--Hanford Site Region Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 8/14/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-05-19: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100-F Area 200 Area 300 Area Hanford Site (Wash.) Parker, Herb 1910-1984 Richland (Wash.) Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F52f6b9ebbfafb294c6ef3a82ee8d1e13.jpg 15fa0949b82ca33ced2dd0071c4d36ae https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fb40e6a86bc13a0b6cbe0c3c464393cd1.mp4 21f63670901528f384025c50aab29b43 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Bair Description An account of the resource An interview with William Bair conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F553a0d1052d72bf58becca961c019cbe.MP3 466fe150c3a60f5d0b8a7382a0973fdf https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F877068013eb9e8ffa6020981a16c9698.MP3 65a76b09f55860805c190166b369d541 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource B Reactor Museum Association Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Oral History Interviews conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. The collection is split between a series of audio oral histories taken in the late 1990s and early 2000s by Gene Weisskopf that focuses on the T-Plant, and a series of video oral histories done in the early 1990s by Bill Putman that focus on the B Reactor and Hanford construction. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, DOCX Language A language of the resource English Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Baumgartner Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [Start of Interview] Weisskopf: Can you give me your name and… Baumgartner: My name is William Vincent Baumgartner. Weisskopf: And today’s date. Baumgartner: Today is what, April 11th, the year 2001. Weisskopf: I don’t care what direction we go, I am interested in maybe, just how about briefly what were you were doing before you came here? Baumgartner: Oh, I came straight out of school. Got my degree on June 11th and I signed on, on the 15th. Weisskopf: Did you come here specifically from your degree? Baumgartner: Yes. I had two job opportunities. One was DuPont back east. The other one was Hanford here, with GE here. I didn’t have enough money to get back east, so I took this one. Weisskopf: What was your degree in? Baumgartner: Chemistry. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Which you would expect. Weisskopf: __(unclear) been a lot of work here? Baumgartner: Right. When we came in, we were tech rads. There were 500 of us. Weisskopf: Every year there were 500? Baumgartner: No, because they were stocking chemists for REDOX. Weisskopf: And what year was that? Baumgartner: 1951. Weisskopf: Was that the fall or? Baumgartner: We came in June and REDOX went online, I think, in ’52 or ’53, and so they were getting us prepared. Think about it, all of these were Q-cleared people so it took several months in my case. It took from June until the end of August. At which time we then went to, I went to T Plant and I was in T Plant from August of ’51 until November of ’52. And at that time we had a lot of changes, a lot of new supervision. The supervisors were changing because B Plant was shutting down or shut down, and so we were picking up those supervisors plus all the new chemists that were wandering through. In the original, from 1945 until at that time, there was only one shift chemist and we had four shifts, you know A, B, C, D shifts, which means we were working seven days a week from the clock. The plant never shut down, it didn’t even shut down for holidays. Weisskopf: But you were working normal eight-hour days. Baumgartner: Normal eight-hour days five days a week, and see you’d work swing, days, and graveyard. Weisskopf: Yeah, and they rotated them rather quickly right? Baumgartner: Well, it would be like seven graveyards… Weisskopf: Seven weeks or seven days. Baumgartner: No seven days. Every 28-day was a cycle. Weisskopf: Yeah. I think they have changed that since then. Baumgartner: Well, it depends. They might be working 10-hour shifts. We don’t have anything now “operating” that needs to operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week. At that time no one wanted to shut the plants down. We were going into, at that time, the cold war and things were getting really sticky because we knew that the Russians had weapons and they were making lots of them. So we were just in the process of making more and better than anybody else. Weisskopf: So when you arrived, things were gearing up? Baumgartner: We were gearing up for REDOX. B Plant shut down. T Plant was going to shut down as soon as REDOX got going, because REDOX was built to handle not only all of the material that our reactors could produce but what Savannah River could produce; it was that big a plant. Weisskopf: Were they going to ship stuff out here? Baumgartner: They did. They actually did. Our material that we made here had what was called the lowest MWd material, megawatt days per ton that was a unit of measurement. Our plutonium was what we call 500 megawatt days per ton. Savannah River reactors were quite large and they couldn’t give us any material that had less than 1,000 megawatt days per ton, and so we had to end up blending to ours in order to get a weapon that… What do you know about plutonium? Weisskopf: More than the general layperson. Baumgartner: Okay, plutonium as it comes from the reactor, what you really want is plutonium 239 and you don’t want 240 and 241. The higher the MWd the more 240 and 241 is in the plutonium, which is not a weapon. Weisskopf: And it ends up in your finished product… Baumgartner: Right, and you can separate that out easily. You just can’t, not with what we’ve got. That’s plutonium and we use a chemical reaction to get the plutonium separated from everything. Weisskopf: Would a 1,000 megawatt day have more… Baumgartner: 240 and 241, and that’s not a good weapon material so we blended it with our 500 and basically ____ (unclear) 750 megawatt days per ton which was our weapons. And the material that we got from the reactors would sit out in the reactor, in the basins, or in 200 R Area basin for at least 60 days for cooling off. So the law of the short half-life materials were gone and then we would bring it into T Plant cask. 1,500 pounds of metal, dissolve that up, separate the plutonium out of that at T Plant using a bismuth phosphate coprecipitator in the front end of the canyon and then we would transfer it over to 224, and then they would use allantoin. Allantoin brings now more plutonium for less. In other words, the precipitation is such that there is more plutonium per pound on the precipity than there is with bismuth, but bismuth doesn’t bring down fission products in uranium, where as lanthanum would have a tendency to bring out some of these other things. To give you a little insight, at the time when we were running this we were literally using up all the bismuth that was being mined in America. Does that tell ya? So, in other words, we were using a lot of bismuth. Weisskopf: And throwing it out each batch? Baumgartner: That was all going into the waste tanks. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Every bit of it, that’s in the waste tanks. One of these days, we’ll mine that. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You know cause it’s… Anyway, T Plant, then the canyon building had the bismuth extract from the dissolver, and the volume. The final volume of the plutonium was, I think, something on…. if you can get a hold of a C-Manual. Weisskopf: I’ve got it. Baumgartner: Have you? It is a very large book. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: That will tell you chemically everything you need to know. That was classified TS in 1950. Only a few people got a chance to read that, I was one of them. Weisskopf: When you came here did they sit you down with something like that, or? Baumgartner: Well, I was in a very interesting position. When I went to T Plant, the laboratory 222-T, my first assignment…Now we had three chemists instead of one, so my first assignment was to go to 271-T laboratory, which was a “cold” laboratory. In other words, we weren’t handling any of the reactor materials. This was cold solutions that we were using to make these strikes, you know, as we were going up the process. There were like six solutions that we had to make up for this process. Recognize the C-Manual was written from test tube chemistry to this 1,800 foot long canyon building, and so in the early days when they got to operating they didn’t hesitate to make two or three bismuth strikes to get all of the plutonium out, because they wanted the plutonium. But as time went on, making multi-strikes when a single strike should work is what they were going for and when I got there they were averaging three strikes to get all of the plutonium out of a batch. Weisskopf: Another word for strike is… Baumgartner: Is where you precipitate down with bismuth and you ended up having to use three times before you could get all of the plutonium out. Okay, then I went into 271-T Laboratory where we did the cold chemistry. Read the C-Manual, and it turns out that in the C-Manual, if you look at it very carefully the variance on the chemicals that you could use, when it said six normal it didn’t mean four and a half or five, it meant say like five point eight to six point two. Well, what was happening is that we weren’t quite as careful, our laboratory had gotten dirty over the years and so we were walking outside the limits. Even though we were saying it was six point zero, it really wasn’t for a lot of reasons. One is dirty tools, dirty laboratory, and the other is our standards weren’t good, weren’t as good as they could have been. I got in there and I got the dubious job of trying to figure out how we can get it so we can get down to one. And we did that, it took me about a month and we cleaned up all the chemical, all the glassware, went down and got a brand new set of calibrations that was really very fine, that had to meet the specifications. And then when that happened, we went down to a single strike and we were able to get the plutonium out. When that happened, operations then glommed onto me and says “We can’t take any more chances, this guy is going to do that all the time.” So I ended up making solutions for about three or four months. Weisskopf: You’re talking about major gallons of solutions ____ (unclear)? Baumgartner: Yes, yeah yeah approximately. Weisskopf: The cold chemicals that they were using. Baumgartner: Right, the cold chemicals that were used right. And they have to be made up to specification. Yeah, we made like 500 gallons at a crack, type of thing. Ferrous sulfate, we only made like 50 gallons and we used 50 gallons. That was not something that you could leave hanging around, which they did and then therefore the ferrous sulfate solution wasn’t as strong as it should have been, even though yesterday or the day before we measured it and it was like say, so much normality, and it turns out the next day if you leave it sit in the same ____(unclear) it is gonna be a lot less. That was part of the problem and we got that cleaned up, and when we did, then they decided oh golly, we’re now one strike per run, well let’s see if we can’t make a run, a real just see how much this plant could really have produced. And they never had in the earlier days, you know when they only had F, H, and D, in the very early days, the reactors. See and then the R came on and B Plant, you know and F, B, and C Plant, and then the two. When they came, you know as they got more and more, then these B and T Plant they didn’t have to be efficient because they had enough capability to process it all. However, when they were going to go to REDOX they just wanted to see what the plant could really do, and it turned out they could do a lot more than they had thought. Weisskopf: What was the turnaround time when you got there, generally, for when they dumped the fuel into the dissolver until it was ____(unclear) Baumgartner: I don’t know is that declassified yet? In other words, each run was equivalent to a half a piece. Weisskopf: When you say run you’re assuming 1,500… Baumgartner: Grams, 1,500 grams of plutonium. Weisskopf: From 1,500 tons. Baumgartner: From 1,500 pounds. Weisskopf: A ton and a half. Baumgartner: A ton and a half… Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: …well about a ton. I don’t know about the halves, about a ton of metal. Depended on the… Weisskopf: Metric tons or English tons? Yeah…yeah, I’ll have to look this up. Baumgartner: You have to look in the, C-Manual will tell you. Weisskopf: They go back and forth even in there. Baumgartner: I thought the C-Manual will say 1,500 pounds. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: In a batch. Weisskopf: That sounds right to me. Baumgartner: And so it wasn’t quite a ton, it was about ¾ of a ton. Anyway, that’s, look at the C-Manual and it will tell you. You know, for the specific amount. Weisskopf: From the time that you put it in until the time it was heading out of the 200 Area, or let’s say out of… Baumgartner: No, out of the back end of T Plant before it went down to 231, 2345 building it would, when I first got there it would take about a day, three shifts. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: When we did our master run, it didn’t take a shift. Weisskopf: When you fine-tuned it and got it down to one precipity. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: So that’s like, we’ll call it eight hours that you could… Baumgartner: About 10 hours is what it was actually. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Boy that was a lot of stuff. So the old plants could have produced a lot, we wouldn’t have needed REDOX, but REDOX just had so much capability. Then REDOX had its problems and it wasn’t very long when we found out what its problem was because the hexone got nitrated. Weisskopf: No chemist had predicted that? Baumgartner: No they hadn’t, they didn’t think that trinitro hexone was going to do what TNT does, but it did. And so we had some pops in some of the vessels. And so when that happened, well then we went to PUREX. Weisskopf: When you were at T Plant, basically, they had fine-tuned the process over those years. Baumgartner: No, no. Weisskopf: Not to what you really could have done. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: Right. They were willing to take basically one run per day. Weisskopf: And that was taken care of… Baumgartner: That was taking care of everything needed, which they knew that wouldn’t be the future, but it was enough to satisfy the military needs. You know, when you had B and T, so that basically gave you a weapon a day. Weisskopf: So you were spending most of your time in a lab, and not a hot lab. Baumgartner: Yeah well, I lasted there two months up in the cold lab. Then they say well Bill you gotta come on down to the hot lab, we can’t let you stay up there forever. So what we did then is we moved the cold lab over to 222 T so I could do that hot work and the cold work. Weisskopf: Oh, they put them both together. Baumgartner: Yeah, well, we cleaned off one side and we put all the cold chemicals in there so they went and brought all the samples over to the T, you know 222 T, and then I at the same time got the chance then to do the hot stuff. And it turned out that the two things that I ended up doing, I hadn’t educated from, because everything is pipetting. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: Okay, and the final solution was based on five lambda, so you weren’t allowed to go very much over the mark and just exactly to the mark, and then you had to make double dilutions. So you were making some very interesting high-dilutions in order for the counter to count and you had to be within a fairly narrow… And we were having a hard time without reruns running the final solution, you know that went down to 231, just to get the right count for the accountability, because that was the first accountability. Weisskopf: How many samples would you do in one batch as it went through? That’s what you’re talking about now? Baumgartner: Yeah, one sample. Well, you had many samples from the batch because you would have the dissolver solution, and then you would have the first strike, and then you would have the first strike waste because you… Weisskopf: What would you test in the dissolver? I mean, wasn’t that just dissolvent and dissolve it and move it on and that’s it? Baumgartner: No, the dissolver solution was where we tried to get the first guess at how much plutonium was in the metal. Because see… Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: And so that when you got it at the back end of the process it had better match. Weisskopf: Back up one step farther, the people at the reactors had estimates of what should be in based on the number of hours in the reactor. Baumgartner: Yeah, but it depended on where in the reactor it was. Weisskopf: Right, how close was that? And when you guys did the first test in the dissolver that was your first chemical analysis ____ (unclear) Baumgartner: That’s the first. Weisskopf: Were they usually close to estimates? Did you argue with the reactor guys about what was in there? Baumgartner: All the time… Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: …all the time. Weisskopf: In what way? Baumgartner: Well, when you’d get 1,100 grams instead of 1,500 grams. Weisskopf: At the end… Baumgartner: Or when you’d get it in the dissolver, what happened to the other 400 grams? You know. Did we lose it? You see, then when the discrepancy was too large then you had to rerun everything. Gotta go back and get another sample of the dissolver solution and then see what the hell…and then if it matched what you took the…because remember now sampling is a real art. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: These guys had some, you know you’re only taking two drops and you know that has got to be representative of what’s in there, and… Weisskopf: Against how many gallons? Baumgartner: Like 500 gallons. So, right off of the bat you’ve got an interesting problem. At that time, not too much was statistics and known. We had arbitrary limits and they were as arbitrary as they thought we could meet ‘em based on the laboratory, you know, having a test tube type technology versus 500 gallons is a whole different world. And so we were having our sweats, so that when you fell out of the limits, and that should be in the C-Manual, those numbers… I know what they are but I am not sure if it’s always… If it’s in the C-Manual you can publish it real easy. I hate to give you information that I am not absolutely sure… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: …has been released. Weisskopf: Yeah, and to tell you the truth the specifics are less important then the generality. Baumgartner: Oh, I got you okay. Weisskopf: Always more better than…just to get a general idea what it was. Here is a couple of things from the Tech Manual. The, well here’s the dissolver flow sheet, sort of a check list, the log, the recipe. Baumgartner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eight buckets of 105 each at 3,800 gallons of sodium nitrate dissolver three to five hours at four and a half ____(unclear), okay. Heat dissolver to boiling and add 1,100 pounds of sodium hydroxide, digest for two hours. Okay they have released everything, alright good. Good, good, good, good. So, large quantities, these always are big big deals. So the original solution comes in, it’s you know like 5,100, you know ____ (unclear) 5,100 pounds, okay. That’s 5,300 gallons, 500 gallons basically. Okay, when it comes off the back end with plutonium it’s about 15 gallons. When it comes off the back end at 224 it’s about five gallons. When it comes off the back end at 231 it was a liter and a half, and when it comes off the back end at 2345 it’s a piece of metal, okay, so that’s, okay. 5,000 pounds is the general guess and the solutions are large. You know, you… Weisskopf: And how much was in a sample that came into the hot lab? Baumgartner: Two drops. Weisskopf: Two which? Baumgartner: Two drops. Weisskopf: And that was so radioactive they had to put it in a shield? Baumgartner: Yes, three, three inches. Weisskopf: How could two drops be so radioactive you have put it in a shield? To a layperson that doesn’t sound like much. Baumgartner: It was called a doorstop and in it was a bayonet point and in there was just two drops. Weisskopf: And you didn’t just pull out the test tubes? Baumgartner: Hell no. We had a tool that went into the doorstop, grabbed our 25 lambda sample. Weisskopf: What’s a lambda? Baumgartner: A lambda is a thousandth of a cc. Weisskopf: It was how many of those? Baumgartner: 25, that’s 0.025 cc’s. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: At two drops, I don’t even remember what two drops is anymore, but I can tell you right now it ain’t a hell of a lot because if you reran a doorstop three times you were out of solution. So, it’s about 100 lambda. Weisskopf: You could run it three times? Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: You could run it three times, then you had to take a new solution. We never went past two, but you could run up to three. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: If you couldn’t get them to match, if you couldn’t the, you know, the two of them to match because one operator would be one and another operator would then run the other run. So you had two guys running the doorstop and they had to match within a given value and if they did then you went on. That became God’s law about what the plutonium concentration was. Weisskopf: You were looking for plutonium in two drops out of 500 gallons? Baumgartner: Yes. Weisskopf: And, what you were looking for is the percentage of plutonium… Baumgartner: You wanted to come up with a number like say 1,500 grams of what’s in that tank. If it was outside of specifications then you didn’t grab that out of the cement, but there was a limit, 1,500 grams plus or minus a 100 grams for instance; just as a case in point. So that if you got 1,350 and your two guys got 1,350, then they had to go back and resample because it’s supposed to be between 1,400 and 1,600 grams okay? So now they resample. If the second sample now agreed with the first one, then that’s what became…then they says ah-ha, there is not 1,500 grams in there, and there’s whatever the number was. Weisskopf: How close would it have to be before you called an agreement? Baumgartner: What? Weisskopf: If the first guy came up with 1,500, how close could the second one be… Baumgartner: It had to be within 50. We were allowed to have, you know the two had to be within 50 of 1,500 grams. Weisskopf: Back it up one more step. You would then take your number…Let’s say you get an accurate number and you say ‘but the reactor guys are saying, you know, 1,800.’ Baumgartner: Alright, if it was supposed to be 1,800 and we say got 1,500 then we had to back and resample. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: …because it could be the two drops we got wasn’t quite representative of the solution, so we got another one. If those two agreed within say 100, then we said that’s what the number is. However, if two of them did not agree within 100, you know within say 100 grams then we got a third sample and two out of three. Weisskopf: Now if yours are agreeing, but they are different from what the reactor guys estimated… Baumgartner: Then this is what we took. Weisskopf: You took your numbers and said we’ll talk about it later. Baumgartner: That’s the way we go. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And so that when got out to the back end of 271 T, the last solution out of there, then that had to check. In other words we couldn’t… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And if it did check fine, and if it didn’t check then we had to go back do the resampling, because see there you weren’t using a doorstop. Weisskopf: Hadn’t you already lost all the, after you do the percentage… Baumgartner: Oh…you leave them in the tanks. Weisskopf: You leave them in the tank until you’re all done and then you would send it to the waste. Baumgartner: Right. See that’s what I’m…you leave solutions, they sit there. These solutions, they just sat there until the run got accepted. When the run got accepted then you could just pump the stuff to the tank farms. Does that make any sense to you? Weisskopf: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: Okay, you’ve got everything here that you need. Weisskopf: It’s enough to get a good idea of how things ran. Baumgartner: Right, right. Weisskopf: What we’re looking for and the kind of… Baumgartner: And these percentages had to be right because they were now recalculated in terms of what the solution had to be that we are going to be adding. You know like six percent or whatever the percentage was and it wasn’t allowed to deviate very far. Weisskopf: You’re saying based on the amount of plutonium that was in the solution? Baumgartner: No, based on this, it is the amount of metal that you dissolve. Weisskopf: It’s what? Baumgartner: It was the amount of metal you dissolve. We always dissolved the same amount of metal. Weisskopf: It was the batch size, not however much plutonium? Baumgartner: Right, that’s what regulated the amount of chemicals you put in. Weisskopf: Would you need, you wouldn’t be using, you could’ve used less bismuth if there was less plutonium in the batch, theoretically? Baumgartner: Not really. Weisskopf: No? Baumgartner: Bismuth, well when we had it fine-tuned yeah. But, see we were expecting them to put slugs in there that gave us the 1,500 grams. We were expecting 1,800 or down to 11. We were expected 1,500 grams. And we expected them to blend those slugs. They knew where they were at and they knew where they had come from, so… Weisskopf: The batch should add up. Baumgartner: It should have added up and that kind of thing was, you know, we didn’t fuss much. That didn’t bother us a lot. Maybe one run out of 10 deviated from what we expected. The rest of the time these guys were pretty good. They knew that reactor pretty well and they pretty well knew that in this pile there was…especially after we got the computer working pretty well. That took some doing, but once they got the computer program that told them what they needed, when to push, and then…See they would push not the whole reactor, so they would just push it for the section. Weisskopf: The tubes of their choice. Baumgartner: Right, right. And that was based on what the computer said was there, based on what they saw in the profile of the number of neutrons per centimeter squared. When all that happened and that computer program was working, I was very fortunate I happened to know the guy that wrote the dang thing. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: And we were taking the class together because at the time, well programming was pretty much at the beginning stages, and the language you were using was your own, and the arithmetic was really…that’s where we were having all of problems. The arithmetic was such that getting five or six digits of precision was pretty hard. And so we were looking for better ways of getting the six or seven, eight digits of precision without taking a large amount of time on the computer. Because you remember now the computer in those days was at like 37 milliseconds per cycle. So you weren’t getting very many cycles per second, like you are now where we got 700 megahertz. Weisskopf: 37 milliseconds is 30 cycles per second, give or take. Baumgartner: No it’s 300 I think. Weisskopf: 300. Baumgartner: 300 yeah. And now there are 900 million. In my home, what I got is 333. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And that’s about three or four years old. So you get what I am trying to say. The computers were small. They were only like six kil, and…So we were looking for methods and the reactor kind of thing was really burning computer time. Weisskopf: Just calculating when the slugs were ready to push out… Baumgartner: Right, when they are ready to push out, so we were taking an inordinate large amount of time. So the guy worked on that problem and we took them out. Weisskopf: Do you remember what department he would have been in to be doing that… Baumgartner: He would have been in the 100 Area, but in operations. Weisskopf: With their own people. Baumgartner: Yeah it was his own, and there weren’t too many computer people at that time. You know there was, I think there was like 10 guys that I knew. Weisskopf: Any reactor operators or… Baumgartner: Well the reactor operators are just pushers of buttons and switches you know, but nuclear engineers…we were teaching the guys nuclear engineering here. I took classes on that. Weisskopf: And realizing too that this idea of estimating when the slugs are ready and then finding out that you were correct… Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: And they had to do it… Baumgartner: Well they had to make a whole bunch of experiments and all that kind stuff and it took awhile, it took awhile. Anyway, that’s the precursor to this. At the time, when like I say it was all trying to push metal through and so we had limits and if we deviated from the limits then we did a resampling, and then if the samples were close then we went ahead and continued, got the final one. They checked the front end within a certain limit. In other words, we figured at least 90%, 90%-95% recovery. Weisskopf: Recovery, and you were happy… Baumgartner: Well when it first got there we were happy with that one. When got done we were not happy until we got 99. So, cause then that leaves only a little bit of plutonium in the waste solutions. Weisskopf: Were there any problems you remember overcoming that made a noticeable difference that hey hadn’t seen before or hadn’t been able to correct, or hadn’t realized it was there? Baumgartner: I don’t know, there was an awful lot of chemical engineers in T Plant, I think each shift had like four. Weisskopf: They had been working on it for years. Baumgartner: Yeah, right from the beginning. And they were as dumbfounded as everybody else was because, not realizing some of these problems. It happened that my forte was analytical chemistry and I had thee years of that stuff. When I went to Seattle University, here let me give you my college. Freshman year was Yakima Valley College, so I took beginning chemistry. Sophomore year I went up to Seattle University. I then took analytical chemistry. In my Junior year I came back to Yakima Valley and I got a ____ (unclear), and Junior year I was back at Yakima Valley College, because it cost me my whole year’s of college money and I took organic. My senior year, ah ha now then, I ended up having to take P-chem organics since I had taken it in Yakima Valley. I had to take organic qual and since then I liked what I had done. I had to take advanced analytical chemistry and advanced organic for my senior year. I was taking like 10 hours every quarter chemistry classes. So I got 30 hours my senior year alone. So I had an extra year basically of chemistry just to get my degree. And so I ended up having the kind of thing that they wanted here. Somewhat, because one of solutions was semi-organic. Weisskopf: What kind of automated instruments, electronic instruments were you using back in college? Was it all test tubes and… Baumgartner: Well, most of the stuff that I did in college was in terms of gravimetric. Here it was volumetric. Volumetric was what we called elementary, it was more prone to error. And so that’s what I was getting at. Volumetric analysis is more prone to error, 50 lambda in 10 milliliters, and 25 lambda out of that, so you would have to make sure that everything is stirred, etc, etc, etc. So volumetric lends itself to some real interesting errors. Whereas gravimetric errors, we would have precipitated it, put it onto you know, pull it out on the filtered paper, weighed the filter paper before and after, would have been much tighter tolerance. Weisskopf: With two drops. Baumgartner: Yeah, because filter paper… Weisskopf: Well, that’s what…I’m sorry, but back at Berkley when they discovered plutonium those are the amounts they were working with, tiny, tiny, tiny amounts. Baumgartner: Yeah, they were with a fraction of a gram. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: See and that was the total amount and now your going sample that to see how much there was really there. Weisskopf: So the beauty of chemistry is you can do it on big levels or small levels, the equations are the same, it’s just that instrumentation and the beakers are different sizes. Baumgartner: Well, also too in gravimetric if you way say a five gram sample and you have down to the closest 10th of a milligram on possible with a beam balance. You can do that. So that gives me like three orders of magnitude, so a little bit of wait goes a long ways. Secondly, your adding some weight to the precipitate, by you know, putting some more, you know, atoms to the molecule and it was your precipitating so therefore your putting more weight to so its not less, it’s more. And so there, and you correct for it. But the point I’m getting at is you make sure that your gravimetric analysis will allow you at least 99%, so that if you say you can go to the closet 10th of a milligram. You would expect to have at least 10 grams difference in weight. And so in our case we would process something on the order of 50 milligrams, see and that would be 500. So that we should have been able to hit one percent easy with the gravimetric analysis. Whereas with volumetric analysis now, you’re going to titrate and you have to know…. When I first got there they gave me the calibrated solutions to two digits. Weisskopf: As opposed to… what would you have expected? Baumgartner: I would have expected four. With four I can do something with it. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I can’t do much precision analysis, because now all of a sudden the third digit is half, you know, so now I got I suppose a six normal and I’ve got five that’s almost a percent. And so I got nasty when I went down there at the standards. I says I’ve got to have a minimum of three digits, I’d prefer four. That was very hard for them to give me so they gave me basically about three and a half on the volumetric, but that made the difference. That’s why we ended up getting precisely what we were… It was the little things like this that people weren’t watching. Yeah, if it was really and truly you know six normal, you know, plus or minus 0.1 normal everything was fine, but what happens when it isn’t? You know, then yeah, yeah we ended up striking twice, three times, that kind of thing. Anyway, with me getting the advantage of working with these guys in the cold part, I also was allowed to drive the elevator, in other words the crane. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: I got to do that, moving the cell blocks. Weisskopf: Based on what? Baumgartner: Well they began to know me. Weisskopf: Oh…yeah okay. Baumgartner: So I says well why don’t I sit in with you to see what you’re doing. I says ‘how can I help if I don’t know what anybody is doing?’ You know, a chemist can do more than just chemistry if he can watch what people are doing, see what kind of system. In other words, are the cells really as the C-Manual says they are? You know, big hurky stainless steel tanks. In other words, how much volume is sitting between this tank and that thank you know. Pipes two inches in diameter is eight feet long, well there’s somebody in there. It’s the little things like this that they had overlooked that when I saw the equipment that I said ah that makes sense to me. And then we were dropping solutions down through sort of a rig, you know a valve, you know, so this could go into this one and this, oh we’ll let it go into that one. So it was all of those kinds of things. So there were solutions sitting there. Get what I’m trying to say? From the tank where we knew what it was until it ran out the spout down into wherever it was going. Well there was a volume in there. Okay, if that thing sits there for any length of time, well it’s not going to be the same. It’s just little things like this that, when I saw, you know, even though I read it in the manual, but it doesn’t give you these volumes. So, you couldn’t strike a tank with 10 gallons then you had 10 gallons in the pipe. Weisskopf: You wouldn’t be using the fresh solution… Baumgartner: Right. In other words, you ended up having problems and this was all part of the problem. So then I went to these volumes, you know, and how much was being added and we then played around a little bit and we strengthened a couple of them, went to 6.3 instead of 6.0 to make up for what was decaying in the pipery. And when we did that, see that’s how we ended up really fine-tuning one strike, we really could shove it through there. It was little things like that that hadn’t been considered from the chemistry in the laboratory to the big plant. Those are the kinds of things that we discovered on the job. The chemical engineers were looking at this thing in the massive. I was looking at it in terms of chemistry and how much the volumes were involved and what my normalities had to be and all you know. Weisskopf: Who would have been the person at T Plant who knew what the current settings were, like it wasn’t a railroad, it was a chemistry system with pipes, who would have the map that shows how everything is connected? Baumgartner: The maps were what we called on the pipe roll. In other words, here sits the tanks and then we’ve got a big wall, a 12-foot concrete wall, and then on the other side you have these boards like the six three board which was the six three Tank and he had… In other words, he could push valves I could validate which would then allow solution A to drop in B, C, D, E and they knew, you know, well I’m going to add this solution to valve C. So he’d open up valve C and the amount of volume that was up there was the specified volume, you know that was dropped down in there and they would let it five minutes and yell ‘run’ down in there and then they’d close the valve and that thing. These are boards and each section like six had a board, seven had a board, eight had a board, up to 13; each one had a board. And each had groups of valves for whatever they were going to do whether they were exit, import, you know the openings, exit, import, adding solutions and all that kind. And then you know, so there would be maybe 8-10 switches you know for them to open and close that they would do, and there would be an operator in front of each one of those, every shift. And then there would be two, what I call chemical engineers following and they had a log book when they did what and for how long, opened at such and such a time, closed at such and such a time. That was all part of the record. Weisskopf: …in there that are like that, the log pages where you would actually put in what had happened. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: ____ (unclear) supposed to do, here’s the time we start…. Baumgartner: Right, right and that all got put in there and the chemical engineer picked those up. He then scanned them. He went over them to find, you know, to make sure everything was copacetic against whatever rules. So they had a set of rules, we’ll say like five minutes, so they didn’t expect anything between four and a half to five and a half minutes so he expected a time to be like that. Sometimes then an operator would be out maybe smoking a cigarette, God only knows you know, because not everybody was conscious totally with time, you know we’re human beings. So that was the operations part. I knew all that because I had been down to see what they were all doing. This is how I recognized that there was heels. The same way with exporting. The pipe that went into the tank didn’t drain every drop. That sounds elementary, but now you have find out, you know, in other words, because when they built the tank it turns out that each tank, you know there might be three tanks identical, they would have different heels. Weisskopf: Describe what a heel is. Baumgartner: Heel is leftover solution. Now on the surface that doesn’t sound like much, but it turns out that suppose you dissolve up something, but not everything stays in the solution. Suppose you’ve got particulates leftover, it’s you know, it’s all… Especially when you’re making the precipitate you know and it’s falling down. Now when you, you know, pull that precipitate out and go to the next tank…did you get it all? See how much would have stayed in the heel? So those are the…Now the chemical engineers worried about that. Now how do you quantify that? Weisskopf: You can’t go in and look. Baumgartner: No, heck no. So we developed some sample analysis over in the lab with them. We worked together, hand in glove, and then we sat there. I got involved in a lot of that kind of thing just because of the analytical chemistry that I’d had. Not everybody that came out with a BS in chemistry had all the chemistry that I had. And that was, anyway that was fine with me. I enjoyed my time there and I knew the operating people. I was on C, A, and D shifts, so I got to meet different people. Like if you were on C-shift you only met those operators on C shift, but… Weisskopf: Oh you didn’t change with the same shift all the time? Baumgartner: You always stayed with the same shift generally. Weisskopf: So you were with the same operators? Baumgartner: Same operators all the time when you were on C shift. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: But I was very fortunate where I got bumped from C shift, to A shift, to D shift, so I got to meet not only C people, but I got to meet D and A people. And it makes a difference because you can pretty soon, like a technician, you can tell which ones are the good ones, that type of thing. And that made a difference for me. Anyway, I think I’ve answered all…. Weisskopf: How about, you mentioned you got to ride in the crane. Could you describe…how tedious was it. Describe what it must have been like for the crane operator. Baumgartner: Oh…it’s a single lens, no depth perception. So what they did is they would shine light so there would be shadows, you know because to pick up a block. For instance, it was a metal frame you know that came like that and he had to put a hook into there so he could lift the rod. Well with no depth perception, where in the hell is the hook? You know it might be over here…might be… Weisskopf: He could only look down, he couldn’t look from the side? Baumgartner: No, and only one eye. Only one single eye through a whole bunch of going down, because you know he couldn’t look straight down because we were on the side. Weisskopf: You’re right, right. Baumgartner: You know we were on the side. So you were going over a barrier looking down and you couldn’t and then the blocks were all numbered and that kind of stuff. Like he’d have six-three, A, B, C, you know that, A comes first and then you know, and so that you put the three blocks back onto the cell the same way each time, because they were not identical pieces. Weisskopf: Right. When you took the lens off and looked down, there might be a mass of equipment and pipes. What would the crane operator, how would he know which one to take off first? What was that called? His instructions, you know, did he have a sheet of things he was supposed to…. Baumgartner: The chemical engineer told him that maybe I want it, now each pipe had a little thing for him to put the hook on and we had the big hook for the blocks and then we had a little hook for when we wanted to do repair work. For instance, you want to take off a small piece of pipe. Okay he had to go, first of all he had an impact trench which he had to set down on that baby and get onto that nut, and then you undo it. There might be four on one end and four on the other end, pull that pipe out, put another one in its place. He had to do that all with one eye and no depth perception. So, it was all in how the guy wanted the light set so that there would be shadows so that he would know when the hook was….you know how do you know when the hook gets in there and fix it? Weisskopf: Did he have the lights on the crane that he would adjust? Baumgartner: No they were up to high. Weisskopf: So what lights were there? Baumgartner: When they opened a cell, they had like on a rack you know and they have lights shining down. You know it didn’t matter that that got irradiated. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: You know, so, for instance if there was a cell we would move all the blocks from six-three over to seven. You know, okay, so on this end on each end you could have lights or you‘d have two one side so you, whatever the guy specified, the crane operator. And they learned that from scratch. They had four of the best crane operators your ever gonna find, because doing that job with one eye is…. When I, it takes a lot more finesse than you’d think. Weisskopf: And patience. Baumgartner: And these guys are very quick. TAPE 1 SIDE B Baumgartner: …And then you’d have to pull the tank out. So, it was to me, the most skilled individual was a crane operator and they were very good. I can remember him taking all of the three blocks off a cell in less than 10 minutes. I can remember him taking off two pipes, you know bringing your impact wrench down, putting it onto the nuts four on each end, that’s eight bolts, and it was highly magnetized so that bolt stuck, you know to impact wrench, and he had them pulled over and somebody had to, you know you had to undo it. I don’t know how that impact wrench was built, but it allowed him to put the bolts in place. I think they put them into a little thing to where he could go back down and grab a hole. You know, it set down into a block you know with a hole where the bolt then fit down into the hole with a head on top and then he would drop it off and then he’d go and grab the next one. And when had all eight, he could see all eight now, ‘I got them all off’. It’s the little things you know that you don’t….he says well I gotta take off eight bolts, so he wanted to make sure he had them all off. And I can remember we took out a six-three tank one time, the dissolver solution tank and it took one day. There was like four pipes to take off, pull the tank out, put it onto the railroad car…you know six railroad cars away, because this is all over, the tank had sludge in the bottom, hotter than hell…and then that went to the burial ground and the new tank had been sitting there and he went and picked it up and put it down in there. And that had to be oriented so that it just sat only one way, so that all of these hangers just fit perfectly. Because you’re talking about hangers, you know pipes that go to the wall you know where the guy is opening and closing and all that type of thing and he did that in one day. Weisskopf: And there could be no workers anywhere near that… Baumgartner: Not in the canyon. Once you pulled off the cellblocks, now and up to 11, no one on the high end up to cell 11, from six to cell 11, I guess there was a cell five. But anyway, when those blocks were off no one was in the canyon, but I think if he had 12 and 13 you could have someone in the canyon because there wasn’t enough stuff up there anymore to make any difference. I don’t know…have you got pictures of that? Oh here we go. Okay, oh I never saw, yeah. There’s 20 cells I see, but I don’t ever… Weisskopf: Sections… Baumgartner: Yeah, but I never saw us ever go past 13, so I am assuming that that…Now the waste from 224 building and that was recycled. You know, take my word for that. Weisskopf: When you say recycled… Baumgartner: Ran through another run, was added to a solution and up here at about 10 and 11 tank they would add it back into there. It wouldn’t be very much. Weisskopf: Oh you mean the waste from… Baumgartner: The waste from 224. Weisskopf: From their finished process, whatever was left would have a tiny amount of plutonium. Baumgartner: Yeah, whatever it had in there they recycled it and ran it in even though we didn’t think, but we sure there was no plutonium or yeah… Okay, any other questions? Weisskopf: The width… Baumgartner: Oh here we go, that is a nice picture of it. Here you can see where the crane operator was. Weisskopf: Yep. Baumgartner: Yep, yep, yep. Pipe gallery and operator gallery, see this is where these guys were. And then the pipe gallery is where solutions were running. Oh God, it was a mess. Cause you know you make, the solutions were in 271 where the crane operator got into the cab. He would get into the cab in the front end here, he got into the cab in the front end and then you know, and that’s where we made up the solutions. Where we made up the solutions, at that, right where the crane was, where he got in. This is how I got to know the guy, cause the guy had to walk by the laboratory. And then the tank solutions that we were making up were right there and there was just a hallway to his crane. So, you know, and he couldn’t, I don’t remember… The longest I ever saw a guy in there was four hours. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: But most of the time, a guy couldn’t handle much more then about two hours and then he had to have about a 30-minute break, because that was just to…unless he could use both eyes. But, I don’t’ remember anybody ever using two eyes. Weisskopf: No. When there is a batch ready to go, anybody who was holding it up would be under a lot of pressure, whether it was the chemist or the crane operator who had a chore to do, how did that make your daily routine? Was it pretty pressured? Baumgartner: For me, no, we didn’t, for us in the laboratory that was not the case. The only time we ever held anybody up was if we ran out of a solution. Weisskopf: For the cold solution. Baumgartner: For the cold solution, and then they got pissed. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You’re right, and that only happened, not very often. You know that would be an error on the part of the chemical engineer. Weisskopf: He just didn’t order enough or… Baumgartner: He didn’t make the tank. In other words they ran too much solution through, you know. When we got into the final run that happened to us a couple of times where a guy made up 500 gallons and we used 500 gallons before I made up…because there were two tanks and each one, you know…you’ve got this one running and your making this one up and your trying to make it up as close to the using…of finishing off the using so that you didn’t make too many, because some of these are ____ (s/l oxcit) and reduction solutions and they age poorly, they lose their strength. Weisskopf: How many hours a day or… Baumgartner: Oh ferrous sulfate solution, probably in three or four days would lose 50%. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Baumgartner: That kind of problem. So you didn’t want to make up a ferrous sulfate solution except maybe just a few hours before you start using it was the best, then it was the closest. I worked out a table for them to, because they would change the amount of volume as it got older. I would give them the moment when it got…when we knew what it was and then as it aged, and then we’d say well okay it’s 6.3, and then two hours later it was 6.2 and that kind of thing. So that they would know how much more, maybe you would add an extra gallon or two or three of that solution just to make sure that it would work, you know. Weisskopf: What about the hot lab though, if they were under pressure to get their numbers done… Baumgartner: That was, the sooner the better because you couldn’t go from 6.3 to 7 or to 8 until you had the answer verified. So, when these operators came in and took those samples and they had to bring them over and then we got right on ‘em. In other words, if we screwed around more than and hour and half by the time they got the answer they were ticked. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Because see that means that tank was sitting there, it couldn’t move. Weisskopf: So you always did test at the dissolver to get a first number? Baumgartner: Always. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And we did a test on every dang…seven, eight, nine, ten, hey… Weisskopf: And each of those took about an hour? Baumgartner: An hour and a half. Weisskopf: Oh, so that’s a good hunk of the batch time right there. Baumgartner: Well… Weisskopf: Because they were processing… Baumgartner: They were processing. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: See as soon as they got the 6.3 out then they could put another dissolver in there. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: So that they could have, in other words there might be three runs going through the canyon. Weisskopf: And if your numbers didn’t match then you say we have to do another test or take another sample, then you’re starting to hold things up. Baumgartner: Then is when, yeah right, right, right. Weisskopf: If you literally had to go get another sample, how long would it take? Baumgartner: Operators had to go back into the canyon, had to go back into these little doors, go into where the sample, there was a little sample room area where they would have the doorstop and they would do their little thing of agitating solution, etc, etc, etc, etc, and dropping in the two drops. You know, sucking it out about three times into that little drop…sucking it all and doing it about three times to get the right sample size. I watched that operation too. That was a, they weren’t stirring it enough to start with… Weisskopf: Now you said getting a sample. Didn’t some of the cells have a little inset box where they would get the samples at the cell? Baumgartner: No, no, they were all gotten over here. Weisskopf: In the operating gallery or where would…. Baumgartner: No, no, not in the operating, on the other side. On the other side of the canyon Building, on these little doors that you see right here, that allowed them to go into a little room and they could sample three cells. Each one allowed them to sample three cells. So they could, in other words, this one could sample these three cells, and then they overlapped except for the middle one, but they overlapped on one so that if you didn’t like the answer from that one you could go maybe in the next bay and sample it from the other sampler. You know, you had, the only one you couldn’t was the middle one. Weisskopf: And would they enter then from that side… Baumgartner: They would enter from this side and it was just a small room, just a small room. And see these pipes went into the tank, you know they dropped into the tank and it would be a little pipe you know and they’d stir around fresh solution and then… There was a whole… You didn’t take that out of the C-Manual, it tells you, they told them how to do that. And, well here, you’ve got a perfect picture. It’s complicated. See here, all you had to do to take off this one is go down and hit that thing with the impacter and straight down. Yep, here it is. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You can get a pretty good feel as to what it was doing. Weisskopf: And did they have a map or a chart that would say what’s connected to what? Baumgartner: Absolutely. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Absolutely. The engineer says you go in and you go to the fourth valve. So the guy had to go down and he had read one, two, three, go and pull that one off. Weisskopf: Would they ever hook it up to the wrong one… Baumgartner: Not easy. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because they were all made with different lengths… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And different lengths. You couldn’t put this particular hanger on any place but here. So you might get it on here and it wouldn’t fit. It wouldn’t fit. It wouldn’t fit properly. Weisskopf: And if they were replacing a jumper or needed a new one… Baumgartner: Well you had to have, remember you had to pull off two. You had to pull off two to get the jumper off. If you had the wrong jumper it wouldn’t fit… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: …on there. No that was nicely designed. Take my word. Weisskopf: Speaking of design, did you run into, you know DuPont designed the building before they even knew, understood completely how it going to be used. Did it work out well by the time you were there? Was the building… Baumgartner: Oh yeah… Weisskopf: …performing as… Baumgartner: Oh yeah, it was performing like the C-Manual says it should. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And as a matter of fact when we did the trail laying on the speed runs, I think top management was absolutely flabbergasted that that thing was capable of doing that kind of production. Never, they didn’t think it was possible. And that happened in ’52 just before they went down. I think they shut down in August of ’52. I am not sure when it down. You look it up some place, it’s around somewhere. Well, you’ve got everything here. You’ve got tank farms? Weisskopf: Yeah… Baumgartner: You’ve got the whole Two-West Area. Weisskopf: The Tech-Manual has tons of great, it is almost written for a layman in the sense that it is not full of acronyms and utterly technical terminology. Baumgartner: It was written by DuPont people who were chemists and chemical engineers and this is how they would write a manual for their own things. Weisskopf: It’s very readable. Baumgartner: Oh, it’s real readable. I mean if I could read it, it was readable. So, but you… Weisskopf: What was the last six months before they shut the plant down? They were just processing up to the last day or what kind of things were you doing? Baumgartner: We processed up to the last week, two weeks, and then we cleaned for two weeks. Weisskopf: What type, you know, how exactly… Baumgartner: Run solutions, dummies, didn’t… Weisskopf: Just to flush things out? Baumgartner: Yep, just flushed everything out. This was when we found out that a couple of the tanks had some heels. Because see these tanks should have gotten fairly clean, but they didn’t. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Baumgartner: They turned out to be pretty hot. Weisskopf: And was the problem that it was hot, or that you were… Baumgartner: It was high gamma. Higher gamma levels. See we thought that after we flushed, we could down to the six-three tank basically and literally go into the canyon building… Weisskopf: Oh… Baumgartner: …and you know, get what I’m trying to say? Weisskopf: And walk around. Baumgartner: Walk around, because what the hell you cleaned it all up. So, but that didn’t really happen that way. Weisskopf: Did they end up just yanking it and burying it or? Baumgartner: I thought they left it in for a zillion years and then was pulled out when they decommissioned it. Weisskopf: Because they had to immediate use for the building right? Baumgartner: Well, but you didn’t, just because we didn’t operate with it didn’t mean we couldn’t. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And there is nothing that says that if PUREX or REDOX doesn’t blow up, well hey we didn’t know. Weisskopf: Right. But you wanted to keep the building operational. Baumgartner: It was in mothballs. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And B Plant went off of mothballs. Once we got T Plant running high speed then we didn’t need B Plant anymore. Because now it was doing more than the two plants were doing together. Because before the two plants were doing 30-56, so you know you say well we don’t need B Plant. So B Plant then went and we were starting to process the waste solution and taking out the strontium, and we were. See there are only two really bad actors in the waste solution which would mean that the waste tanks if you took those out after about 15-20 years would be nothing in them, and that is cobalt and strontium. If you pull those two babies out, then your tanks would decay to zero basically in 15 years and that was the goal behind some of this. Some of those tanks, they wanted them to be cold and they were. Though after they had gone though B Plant some of those old tanks really, truthfully, I mean you know you had to literally stuff the CP into it before you could even get a reading. So, it worked, it worked. And they were shipping solutions between West Area and B Plant, and from B Plant and back to West Area. There was a pipeline that runs from the tank farms from B Plant, to all the tank farms. Weisskopf: So they could move stuff… Baumgartner: Yeah they moved stuff, and one of the pipes had hot solution coming in and the other one was the cold solution going out. Let me see, there were three plants built originally to do the same thing; T, B, and U. U Plant never went online and the only thing we did with U Plant was we took and they separated out the uranium from the, you know from the waste solution. And that ran through U Plant and then our product there was yellow cake, in other words yellow powder, it was uranium oxide, and that was shipped wherever, back east probably or I think to Oak Ridge. Weisskopf: Did that lower the tank levels much? Baumgartner: I don’t think so. The only thing that would lower the tank levels basically would be to, would be for the evaporation. Getting rid of the liquid, because once you got rid of the uranium now you’ve got rid of 1,500, you know, you’ve got 500 gallons and you pull out almost most of the weight, what’s left it either bismuth or lanthanum, plus the fission product, plus the aluminum. The you know, the slug can. That was there. Weisskopf: Is that still there? Baumgartner: Yeah, it’s still there. Weisskopf: They never did retrieve those? Baumgartner: Never retrieved a dime of that. There were a lot of proposals put together in the late 50’s for mining the bismuth. Weisskopf: Really? Was it worth that much? Baumgartner: Well, it wasn’t worth enough at that time, but I don’t think it’s ever been re-visited. You know there has been so much anti-nuclear things that trying to recover anything people would be so damn scared that if there was a 10 counts per minute of fission products in the bismuth, why they would be upset. Weisskopf: So how about just giving a brief idea of what you did after left T Plant. Baumgartner: Oh, I went to 231 and 2345. Weisskopf: Yeah, more chemistry? Baumgartner: Yeah, for a year I did chemistry and then after I went into radiation protection. And since I had spent so much time in T, 231, 2345, I was brought back for the Health Physics people to 231, 2345 and all of the material that left that building I signed off on from 1954 to… Weisskopf: Signed off in what way? Baumgartner: Signed off I knew it went out, what the numbers were, that it wasn’t contaminated, etc, etc, etc. What containers it was put into when it left the building. Who took it? And as far as I know those were a terrible ____(unclear). That was GE ____(unclear). So you wouldn’t know, from those you could make some real quick assumptions as to what went on, but from 1954-1958 I was in 2345. That’s when we went from what we call the rubber glove line which was a hood operation with glove to a mechanical line where everything was fairly mechanicalized with little trains, you know. Where you didn’t touch the material as much because when I first got there in ’54, the operators in 2345 building were burning out, in other words they weren’t able to work a year. So we had to have operators, you know not necessarily working 2345 building but they had to be trained and then they were rotated so they could…some of the guys were burning out…in other words they were getting limit of radiation that they were allowed by say August. So there was five, six months when you had to bring in other guys and so it was economically feasible for use to figure out ways in which we could stop doing that. And it wasn’t until like ’58 before we really solved all the problems and were allowing the operators to run the whole year. So, we were able to cut down the, basically cut the exposure more than half so that they could operate the whole year. Also do remember 2345 Building was top secret and everybody got fussy about having so many people having top secret. Weisskopf: Oh you mean just to work there. Baumgartner: Yeah, just work there… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because that was fine to finish plant see, and so the people who were working there saw what the hell it was our products, you know. And you just, you know, operators they weren’t just a dime a dozen. Well it’s a lot training besides. I spent a lot of training time, both Health Physics people as well as operators, because you know a guy can’t just come in there and….it’s a foundry and foundry operations are notoriously famous for, you know, doing all kinds of dumb things you know. And plutonium was no exception. I mean if you could do it with lead, you could do it with plutonium you know and we did it. And so there was a foundry operation, it’s the best description I can give you. I won’t say any more than that, because I don’t know if it’s been declassified… Weisskopf: It would take a while for you find out. Baumgartner: Yeah, I’d have to go and take a look at the pictures and see what’s been declassified. Weisskopf: So… Baumgartner: I think the only thing that is not declassified is the actual production numbers. Weisskopf: They don’t like to talk about that. Baumgartner: And they don’t want you talking about that and they didn’t want you talking about too many details about how the line worked. There were lots of problems you know since you’ve got a foundry. There was crucibles in which you were ____ (unclear) and melting plutonium and it was running down into the shape, crucibles break. How do you stop that? For awhile there we were getting, see we never made our crucibles here, we got them and crucible-breaking problems were really severe. So, that had to be solved. That was not my problem. My problem was making sure the guys weren’t getting too much radiation. It was the only operational building, which wasn’t monitored by operation monitors. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: We used Radiological Science people. At least, in my tenure there, for the four years. Then after I left that, one of my major problems was that we knew that the radiation that the people were being exposed to wasn’t being properly monitored with the batch. Neutrons are very difficult to monitor and we were not doing too good. Weisskopf: A film badge doesn’t pick up neutrons. That’s not meant for neutrons. Baumgartner: It wasn’t meant for neutrons. So you would have had to have something separate and it wasn’t until, let’ see, we went to the new badge. A new film badge, oh I think in ’65 and I left. I went to US Testing, who then had the contract for processing the film badges. The bioassays and the environmental samples and we made further improvements. We did a lot of improving and the last function that I did before I retired, in 1989-1995, was put the new dosimeter in place which measures everything. Weisskopf: How do you measure neutrons? Baumgartner: Lithium six. Weisskopf: Oh, just film impregnated with it? Baumgartner: No, no, these are little squares, little crystals. Lithium six will store the neutron effect and when you heat it up, it gives it off as light and we measure that with a photomultiplier tube. Same way with the lithium seven, it only measures gamma. Lithium six measures gamma and neutrons. And what your doing is your, its only thermal neutrons that your measuring, but your measuring the fast neutrons that hit the body, get moderated, and come back. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Because there ain’t no well in hell you’re going to measure fast neutrons, not with anything that I know. Counters you can do, but even then they use moderators, you know like BF-three tubes inside of paraffin casks; very difficult to measure fast neutrons. And secondly, responses for the BF-three tubes changed by a factor of 1,000 between fast and thermal so you have all of these funny little things going on. On film, to go from the old badge, you know the one that had the silver, to the one with four filters, I collected 8,000 data points to get the equations for that thing to work. And then when I did the new badge, I collected I think 12,000 data points to make sure that my responses and the equations that I’ve got in the system are correct. So, it wasn’t done just haphazardly, it was done with a lot of finesse. We had a lot of statistics. We tried to make the equations be within 95% accuracy. We felt, we wanted to move away from 50%. Weisskopf: You said you’d retired what year? Baumgartner: ’95. Weisskopf: And Hanford had stopped production in ’80… Baumgartner: By…. Weisskopf: 89 or? Baumgartner: Well, they started back up. There was a whole bunch of material at N Reactor produced and so it had been sitting there for years and years and years and so then they started PUREX back up and got rid of all that. Weisskopf: So what kind of things were you doing the last five years when there was no longer production? Baumgartner: 2345 Building didn’t go away. Weisskopf: Still, I think, you still had material to work with. Baumgartner: Do you know anything about a weapon? Weisskopf: Well, laypersons. Baumgartner: Alright what does a layperson thing about a nuclear bomb? An atomic bomb? When we make one does it stay an atomic bomb forever, it doesn’t decay, it doesn’t get you know…. It turns out if you make an atomic bomb today that in about seven years if you don’t do anything with it, it ain’t gonna work. Weisskopf: So are we talking the plutonium aspect of it? Or the high explosives and all the… Baumgartner: No, the high explosives. What happens, what is in plutonium that could possibly screw up an atom bomb? Weisskopf: Isotopes and oxidation. Baumgartner: Ahhh, not oxidation. Weisskopf: Unless they took care of that. Baumgartner: That’s not it, it’s the isotopes and 240 and 241 decay at a pretty quick rate and it goes to americium, which is a neutron absorbent, it’s a real suck-up device. And pretty soon you’ve got enough americium sitting there that the thing won’t go off. It’s absorbing the neutrons to where the neutron no longer, you don’t have a certain level of neutrons to start the reaction. Alright? Weisskopf: Rebuilding… Baumgartner: So you gotta take the darn thing apart, get rid of the americium. Weisskopf: It’s a chemical process. Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You’ve gotta get rid of the americium and then you make it back into…Okay so there has to be a cycle so when Americans are going on to this non-nuclear and they are not reworking anything, pretty soon you don’t have a nuclear capability. So, nuclear rework has to be done. Weisskopf: Why wouldn’t it have been worthwhile to take the plutonium from Hanford and run it though what they were doing at Oak Ridge with uranium to strip out the isotopes they didn’t want? And leave pure… Baumgartner: Ahh, uranium 235 and 238 is three atoms difference. What’s plutonium in 239, 240… one. You’d have to have a diffusion plant that is about a thousand times bigger than what you’ve got. Weisskopf: And run it 10 times longer, yeah. Okay. Baumgartner: You know you’re not going to get the separation you think you are. However, there is something that’s much better. I think it’s classified. Weisskopf: But, those are problems that people thought about. Baumgartner: Oh hey, we thought about that right from the beginning. Weisskopf: Does 240 and 241 fission like 239, is it okay to be in there as far as… Baumgartner: Oh, it’s marvelous. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: It’s marvelous. Weisskopf: It’s the decay that’s the problem. Baumgartner: Yeah, it goes in and it decays over the americium and that’s the weird thing. It’s just cause 240, I think and 241 are beta emitters and so they go higher, they go up to americium, and americium is a real absorber. It just loves neutrons and so the next thing you know all the neutrons are being absorbed by the impurity. Let me see if I can tell you, Exxon did a research and the guy that did it was Charlie ____ (s/l Lindmeyer). He was my physics teacher and he worked with lasers. And I worked, when I took the class we solved the problem for ‘em. What kind of stability do you have to have when you’re trying to separate with a laser, 239 from 240? I won’t go any further than that. Weisskopf: Using a laser to do it… Baumgartner: Yes…laser right now can separate uranium 238 from 235… Weisskopf: By doing what? What effect would a laser have on an isotope, it’s just light. Do they absorb heat differently or something? Baumgartner: They vibrate differently. Weisskopf: Yeah? Okay. Alright. Baumgartner: They vibrate with a different frequency and when they vibrate with a different frequency, if you can make one vibrate in one direction and the other one not, then you can pull them babies out, it’s a gas laser. Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: I’ll let you read up on that. Weisskopf: Yeah, interesting. Baumgartner: Because I knew what it took and like I said, you know early years of the computer were not very good because they only had like 6-8 digits of accuracy. Not the kind of thing that a laser needed, a laser needed much more accuracy. And there is that out there, and also too the stability of a system, you know? People talk about 0.01 %, I mean what the hell that’s only 99.9 when you need 10 digits of accuracy what the hell is 0.01%? See, its peanuts. So you had to work out some other details. Charlie did all that and we got him started when we were doing a class, Introduction to Mathematical Physics, I can tell you that much. Weisskopf: So it was here on site. Baumgartner: Yeah, that was class. I went to school at nights from 1959-1967. See, I was very short on physics and math. I’d only had up to differential equations, which is still a lot more because most of the guys who graduated with a BS in mathematics only had up to differential equations. But, that wasn’t nearly enough for the kind of things that they needed. The kind of accuracy and the early computers just didn’t have the capability either. Weisskopf: And since the process was evolving all the time, I’d guess that taking classes and learning was sort of almost… Baumgartner: It was a must. It was absolutely a must. Yeah, since I didn’t know any physics I had to learn physics. I had to learn Nuclear Engineering. I had to take Atomic Physics, Nuclear Physics that takes… Yeah, but most of it was math. I was taking statistics, variables, introduction mathematical physics. My physics class in college was freshmen physics, you know wedges and time planes…that didn’t do any good out here. Even a second year level of physics, you know, wouldn’t have been enough for the kind of things that we were doing. Atomic Physics in particular was… Weisskopf: But you started again in 50- Baumgartner: One. Weisskopf: ’51. This place had only been running for all of six-seven years. Baumgartner: Yeah and it was… Weisskopf: A brand new industry. Baumgartner: Oh yeah. We were just beginning. In the area of Health Physics in particular we were just beginning. How do you monitor what can go wrong? Hell, we were learning as we were working, you know there wasn’t… I mean now you have people scream when we have things happen today, but then after all we’ve got 40-50 years worth of experience. We don’t have to have that happen anymore. We wouldn’t expect it to happen, but then that was not the case then. Then was…you know, we hadn’t done very much in the first place so we didn’t know exactly what was going to happen you know like pipes breaking, you name it, glassware where there shouldn’t have been glassware, you know in the system, buckets when there shouldn’t have been buckets. We didn’t know anything about criticality. What’s the criticality of volume or mass for different solutions, different volumetrics, different… Weisskopf: Which might not be a straight line…. Baumgartner: That’s right…see like maybe anything that four inches in diameter no matter how full you fill it, it never is going to go critical, but you make a six inches and boy you only got get about two-three inches and it goes critical. Little things like that, that was not known. Those experiments were being run, out here we call ‘em mass criticality laboratory. I was responsible for all of the early work that that was going on, especially the solutions. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: ____ (Eduwine) Clayton was the guy that was leading that was leading that, but we were doing the monitoring on him. And we were trying to figure out how to monitor his neutrons and his radiation soil. Weisskopf: For health reasons… Baumgartner: Yeah, for saving him. I mean we didn’t want that guy getting hurt. And these guys didn’t know where they were going to have an explosion or not explosion, you know. They were working, yeah they blew up a lab. Weisskopf: That was the famous criticality. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: The old farmhouse, over in that area. Well you heard about a criticality down in Los Alamos? Weisskopf: Oh, no I hadn’t. Baumgartner: Where the guy was nudging two pieces together. Weisskopf: That was the earliest one… Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: That was two metal pieces. We have had two criticality situations. One at 2345 Building where we had an operation failure and the solution dripped into a bucket, in a three-gallon bucket. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And not critically safe. Weisskopf: And the bucket was there just catch drips? Baumgartner: No, it shouldn’t have been there. Weisskopf: What were the drips going to go into otherwise? Baumgartner: It should have been a criticality safety container. Weisskopf: Oh, oh, oh, but they put a bucket there to catch it… Baumgartner: Yeah, and it shouldn’t have been, shouldn’t have been. Should have been a 4-inch diameter container instead of…just one of those oversights. Weisskopf: In a perfectly vivid illustration of what the deal is. Baumgartner: Your right, of what happens because we knew it could happen, and it did happen. Yeah, and it went critical several times over a period of many months and I spent swing shift out there, for weeks we never came home. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: Yeah, it happened in our building, it didn’t happen with my operation, you know, but we supply the monitoring people making sure that everything thing was still safe. You’ve got 2345 Building and my God, you’ve got to think about what the hell was out there and we couldn’t go in there and clean it up you know. I mean the line was left with all that stuff and no one knew whether, if you had something go critical over here would it set up ringing effects all over there and all that kind of stuff. Weisskopf: Oh… Baumgartner: Because after all you’ve got material laying around, it might be in a critical safe configuration, but now all of a sudden what happens when a… Weisskopf: Neutrons come in… Baumgartner: Yeah, now you’ve got a big level of neutrons. There is one thing to have say 10 of the sixth neutrons, it’s a whole other thing to have 10 of the 18th…you know. I want that answer right now quick from some nuclear physicist, and that wasn’t that fast in coming. Weisskopf: Yeah, it’s a very complicated situation. Baumgartner: Yeah the guy had to, they had to sit down and work. It was, and they didn’t have an answer right away that’s why we didn’t do anything for quite awhile. We were scared to have anybody close to the building because of the…am I making any sense to you? Weisskopf: Oh yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: See that’s what I say, nowadays now that we know all of that, you know, you wouldn’t do that, so the probability… Weisskopf: In any industry you have to collect a certain amount of work experience to get to a certain level of expertise and your doing it in the beginning, but 20 years later when you look back you say my God how did get anything done back then? Baumgartner: Well, you wouldn’t of, but you didn’t have the safety rules and you know, so you just went in there and you went at it. All I can say is, we were very strong in monitoring. When we saw something that wasn’t quite what we thought was copacetic, we shut it down and discussed it with management and operations people. And if it didn’t suit us, kept it shut down until the top management made the decision. That happened several times. Weisskopf: Like you should of any time you “shut something down”…You were… Baumgartner: You got a lot of static. You know you got a lot of Operating Managers you know. I go straight up to the top management real quick like. Health Physics was one guy and here’s Operations over here and when your shutting those guys down, you know, the only guy that can really settle the argument has gotta put up with both them and so it went there really quick because time is money. Weisskopf: Yeah, or national defense. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: I mean that was the overriding premise… Baumgartner: That was the major premise at that time, I don’t think… Weisskopf: You pick up your headlines in the morning. Baumgartner: Right, well, in the days when we were operating we didn’t make a big ‘to do’ about the kinds of levels that they are making a big ‘to do’ now. A 1,000 count per minute level now is a big deal. We didn’t think it was a big deal until they got 10,000, but then when you’re mucking around in zillions, what’s 10,000? Weisskopf: Right… Baumgartner: See, but nothing going on is a whole different thing. Everything has been cleaned up. I can see where a 1,000 is meaningful because that is something you can see. Also too, on some of the areas you couldn’t see 1,000 counts. Weisskopf: They weren’t measuring that low? Baumgartner: Well you had too much background. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I mean you go into that canyon building. There isn’t hardly any place that you could get that wasn’t reading 500 counts per minute period. Especially when you opened the cell blocks, six-three cell blocks. That whole area you had to set the five-folds for 500 basically. So it was, in other words you always wanted to make sure you got the cell blocks back on during shift change. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because when people are going out and in. Weisskopf: Out and in of the canyon. Baumgartner: Canyon, well where their shift change. So that when you go out of the canyon you have to go through the five-fold and when you come in you go through the five-fold. I make sure you’re clean to come in and I make sure you’re clean going out. So, 99.9% of the time the cell blocks were on top of the cells at shift change, because it wasn’t true because you know…I hate to say it but there was megarads coming out of a cell you know, and that is coming off of hitting that ceiling. Weisskopf: As a layperson, that’s what I still don’t have a feeling for. If somebody could show me what the canyon looked like when you took a lid off using light instead of big numbers and…. Baumgartner: Alright…shoot a beam up 20 feet and what’s it going to do when it hits that tall? Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: It’s going to scatter. Weisskopf: But if I think of a flashlight it’s like so what, but you’re talking about a big streak like a light they’d use in front of a used-car lot at night…. Baumgartner: Oh…go that by about a hundred thousand. Weisskopf: Yeah, and that’s what I can’t visualize. Baumgartner: Okay a lifetime dose per year was three rem. Suppose I’ve got 1,000 megarads, how long would it take me to get three rads? Not very damn long. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Because everything was measured in rads per hour. Weisskopf: And the dissolver full of… Baumgartner: Dissolver solution… Weisskopf: ____ (unclear) uranium. Baumgartner: Read in megarads. To give you an example, a doorstop, two drops with a CP off scale, that’s five rads. TP 20 rads. Weisskopf: Okay how long could you be near that to pick up your three rads then? Baumgartner: Ahh, but I was only allowed to pick up 0.05. Weisskopf: Per day or? Baumgartner: Per week. Weisskopf: Per week. So how long does that take? Baumgartner: Well divide, take 0.05 you know rads total and then say your going to now you’ve got. I need a piece of paper and pencil. Suppose you’ve got one rad… Weisskopf: You want these papers now? Baumgartner: Okay. One rad per hour… Weisskopf: Okay it’s per hour? Baumgartner: Right, it’s always per hour. It’s a rate, it’s always a rate. And now your going to receive, your going to have, your going to receive, your going to measure that by time, T x 1 RO per hour is equal 0.05, because see these cancel. So what does, say take 1 underneath 0.05, so 1 one time is equal to 0.05 over 1R, which is what 20? 1/20. 1/20. 1/20 of an hour. Weisskopf: Three minutes. Baumgartner: Yes. Weisskopf: From two drops. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Wow. So if you screwed around in the lab you might have to leave work for the rest of the week if you were… Baumgartner: That’s right, that’s right. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And it might only take you three minutes to get it. They were really pissed off at you if you worked three minutes a week. Weisskopf: Right, right. Baumgartner: Am I making any sense to you? Weisskopf: So if you were in the canyon, when they ____ (unclear) opened far into the canyon, down ____ (unclear) and they took the lid off of the dissolver cell, you would be getting a big dose. Baumgartner: Yeah, about five rem per hour, probably you could be down in there maybe about 30 seconds and then you’d have enough for the week. We allowed people to get a maximum of 50 millirem per day, 250 millirem per week. But if you got 250 millirem per week, you’re only allowed three rem so that would be 12 weeks worth of work. So we didn’t let anybody, we didn’t try to let anybody get 250 millirem a week. So we were trying to keep them down at 50, because 50 x 52 is 2.5, that’s 2.6, that’s as far as we wanted them to go. So we were kind of, if he got 50 then you know, if he got 30 minutes, he had 39.5 hours a week that he couldn’t do anything. That was not very efficient. Weisskopf: No. Two things I always like to ask. If the whole process in the canyons wasn’t radioactive, it was just chemical. How big of a plant would it have been? You want to process the same amount of material…. Baumgartner: Not bigger than my house. Weisskopf: Okay. And workers could go around and tune it up and look at gauges, take samples, all the chemistry would have been the same, but forget…it would have been a very straight forward chemical. Baumgartner: Oh God, all that pipery that you see, that would have all disappeared because you’d have gone in there and poured ____ (s/l EL) solutions with the bucket and…it would looked more like a laboratory. You know, what’s 500 gallons…at that end its 500 gallons and at that is 50, you know… Weisskopf: Yeah. The whole, the massive size of that building, all it said was this stuff is radioactive… Baumgartner: Yeah right… Weisskopf: And ____ (unclear). Baumgartner: Now, had they built the building a little thinner, you could have had nothing but super problems. Weisskopf: Nothing but what? Baumgartner: Super problems. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: Suppose they had…do you know anything about a half-value layer? Weisskopf: A half… Baumgartner: A half-value layer… Weisskopf: No. Baumgartner: A half-value layer is a thickness of material which will, and you put a source on this side will…If I say I’m at three feet and I get a reading of one, now I put a certain amount of material in between the source, you know, such that it now reduces it to 0.5…okay that’s a half-value layer. Weisskopf: Okay, right. Baumgartner: Okay, if I put two half-value layers on there I get .25. Weisskopf: You don’t get zero. Baumgartner: No, no, no, I get a .25. So three half-value layers, okay so I got megarads and I gotta have it down to less than a millirad. So you’re talking about 10 to the ninth. Well how many half-value layers do you have to have to have 10 to the ninth? Okay, if you miss it by very many half-value layer, and you don’t have to miss it by much. Like for instance if it was one millirad now per hour and it couldn’t be that high because you could only work 40 hours a week, you’d have 40, we’d have burned out. So they were guesstimating what it would take and they put 15 feet. Had they put say 12 feet, we would have had three, we would have had to put up lead walls, etc, etc, etc, on the inside. Weisskopf: And nobody ever had to do that… Baumgartner: Nobody, no one, they hadn’t done that before. They hadn’t done that before and so was 15 feet okay? So, what little we knew about absorption, those guys did a good job. Weisskopf: How could they estimate what a full-blown one and a half 1,500 pounds of uranium, they guessed at what the radiation would be, you know educated guesses. Baumgartner: Yeah and then put a factor of 10 safety and that’s about what they did. And thank God they did, because even at that we were getting radiation at the pipe gallery and at the operating levels. Weisskopf: If you went to the wall… Baumgartner: No, where they were operating, where they were moving the dials. Weisskopf: They were getting… Baumgartner: They were getting radiation doses. Weisskopf: Coming through. Baumgartner: Yes, yes. Weisskopf: They were above it too. Baumgartner: Yeah well… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: See and that’s…you know and that’s going through the shielding…just… Weisskopf: Amazing. Baumgartner: To me, it’s those little things that really lead you believe it was, God it was magnificent. In other words, DuPont did a great job. [PART 2] Baumgartner: …was given the instructions about the reactor and Fermi and those guys says well a 30-foot cube, you know 30 feet wide, deep, and high will be big enough. So they gave that to Greenwalt. He went back and they built the reactors. No one ever, they had some ____ (s/l as bills) that nobody ever looked at. So then when B Reactor went up for the first time they got it loaded and it went up. It went up. Got up a little ways and all of a sudden it started going down. So, Fermi was there and they says ‘Well what’s the scoop here, the reactors doing down. No matter what we do pulling out the rods it don’t make a damn bit of difference. It’s still coming down. What’s in there? What going…you know. Hey, yo-yo.’ And we don’t know how long, you know, it took like days for it to get there and going and they back up again. So they had these little spike short…So Fermi does his calculation and ‘Ahh, I know what it is, xenon’. Xenon is getting generated in these factors, absorbing neutrons. So he does a slide rule calculation, two digits of accuracy. He says “Oh damn.” He says “You know if we’d have that reactor at 32 feet x 32 feet x 32 feet, we could, it would work.” So Greenwalt says “But it is 32 feet x 32 feet.” They just loaded it 30 x 30, you know they put dummies in so that the original load was just 30 x 30 x 30. So what they did then is they took the tubes out, put two more feet, you know, of slugs, put it at 32 feet, it went up and stayed up. All because Greenwalt says, if 30 feet is okay, 32 feet is better. Weisskopf: What engineers need to think about. Baumgartner: Right and that’s what he did. He thought we’d get a little bit of extra capacity just…you know…and it worked. But that’s how close that got. Had they built it originally, they’d have had B and F, and D, would have never made it. Those reactors would have been too small, and as it was why they went to 1,500 megawatts and (bomb noise). Weisskopf: But what do you think in terms of leaving something for prosperity? Both T Plant and B Reactor are being looked at as being of historic significance. How can we show them, keep them, what are we gonna do? What would you like people, your shaking your head, but in what way are shaking your head? Baumgartner: They are too radioactive yet. Weisskopf: What is? Baumgartner: The building. The canyon. You still wouldn’t let anybody in there and to let someone in with a crane, you, the limited capacity of looking, it’s so limited that I don’t… Weisskopf: It’s, yeah, yeah. Baumgartner: I mean, one half hour…that’s not my idea of…16 a day. You know that’s not my idea of… Weisskopf: Perhaps a small model of it that would tell as much as the building itself. Baumgartner: And they have that… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: We have that. It’s not too small it’s about that big. Weisskopf: Yeah. You know where that might be today? I haven’t seen it. Baumgartner: Go to the science center… Weisskopf: Oh is… Baumgartner: In the Federal Building. It’s in their warehouse someplace. Weisskopf: They were the ones who had possession of it… Baumgartner: They had possession of it. Weisskopf: Okay. What about B Reactor as far as the story you’d want people…What kind of things would you want people to walk away with? When they come to Hanford to learn what things were… Baumgartner: I think the idea of complexity that it was not a simple machine. I think people think this thing was very, very simple. It was not very simple. It took a hell of a lot of know-how. These reactor operators had to learn a hell of a lot of stuff so they could operate. There was a lot of on-hands work in the original days, because remember there was no computers in those days. And there was no, the inner ties to the monitoring system was all manual. The guys were looking at gauges. At that time we didn’t know if the neutron detectors were really correct or not. They weren’t either, most of the time. So these guys were, they were watching temperature gauges on each pipe, a whole slug of things, all manual. Every shift, twice a shift they would go all through the 25 innertubes and record the temperature on the gauges, all that kind of stuff. And that was collected by those reactor engineers, trying to figure out what to do, such things like splines and all that kind of stuff. But that didn’t occur until after the computer came out and we integrated all the stuff so that, you know. Also too, since it was so slow and it was all manual, they ended up having to have what’s called a third safety system. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: You know, where it was going and we had the balls. I was there when we put the balls in. Weisskopf: Yeah. What were you doing there? Baumgartner: I was radiation protection. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And those went in in 1953. Weisskopf: You’re talking about when they physically put the system in, replace the liquid tanks with the ball bearings. Baumgartner: Yeah, well what happened with the liquid…the pipes lot the liquid run, you know, and the graphite has got little holes you know so that liquid got in there and just shut the damn reactor down just about. You’d have a cold spot right in the middle of anyplace. So what they did is they then pulled all that out and they had these little balls about the size of marbles, these boron silicate balls, and they would have them in hoppers and they would just drop. And they didn’t have pipes inside the reactor, they just had a hole. Well, when dropped the first batch of, when you know testing it, we’d say we put 6,000 balls in and God we only got 5,600 out. There were 400 balls in there… “ahhhhh.” Weisskopf: Each one of which produces the output of… Baumgartner: Yeah, just like the liquid did. And oh God, so we had to develop a method for sucking them 400 balls out. Weisskopf: Well how did you get them out the first time? You sucked them out then too… Baumgartner: We sucked them out with a hose, like a vacuum cleaner. Weisskopf: It didn’t get them all… Baumgartner: No, no we, so we ended up…they didn’t want to put a pipe in there, but by that time the old reactors had such large holes that the marble could go into the crack, you know between the pieces. I mean when they were machined they were really flush, but by the time they had operated until 1953, which from 1944 to 1953, you know that’s nine years, quite a bit of the graphite had…you know what do they call it…it had come out. Weisskopf: Grown is the word that…. Baumgartner: Well… Weisskopf: …growth going on… Baumgartner: Well no, that’s not what happened at first. What happened at first is that the graphite was hot and so therefore it like, it bled off. So we were getting holes. And then they finally figured out how to stop that. But when they did, all of a sudden the graphite grew, see, but the first problem was the graphite shrank. You know we were dissolving the graphite because remember the reactor is hot, I mean “thermally hot.” You know, after all we’re heating up water and almost all the moderation is being in the graphite not in the water or on the slug, we were cooling the slugs… Weisskopf: Moderation produces heat… Baumgartner: Right and so that had to be fused out through the pipe, you know the aluminum pipe, and on into the water. So the graphite was, I don’t remember exactly what the temperature was, but I think they were talking about 600-700 degrees Fahrenheit, which enough to start vaporizing some of the you know if you had a particular atmosphere and it was…and that’s what had generated these holes. You know these splits, cracks, and so when they you know you 400 marbles. It’s not very many when you’ve got 6,000, but it’s a lot when you’re trying to get the reactor back up. Weisskopf: Plus knowing every time you dump it, you might end up with yet… Baumgartner: Yeah, getting more and more and more in there. Weisskopf: Question, you could only suck water up 30 some feet…because if air pressure only allows it to go that high… Baumgartner: Well that’s when atmosphere, yeah… Weisskopf: How do you suck up ball bearings from the bottom of the reactor? Wasn’t it farther than that…its 30…feet? Baumgartner: Well, yeah, but see you’re using not water. You’re using a high-degree of air. See, you put the tube down and you squirt the air so you loosen you know, and then you suck the, you know they drop down the ball and (sucking noise) you’ve seen them suck balls up. Weisskopf: But you can’t suck a ball up… Baumgartner: With a vacuum you can. Weisskopf: …water… Baumgartner: Huh? Well, a vacuum. Weisskopf: Oh, Yes. Baumgartner: You’re not using a vacuum, we’re pushing air up. You’re pushing up with air. Weisskopf: With water that doesn’t work… Baumgartner: Yeah, well it would too because water has some force, but air is what we used. Weisskopf: Okay… Baumgartner: You wouldn’t want to use water because you’d now get water going in there. Weisskopf: Right, I’m thinking of…if you have a flat column of water you can only raise it 32 feet. Baumgartner: That’s no question, not arguing. Weisskopf: …air up through it your going to be sucking water… Baumgartner: Right, you’re really…see you’re pushing air in the first place. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And that was all sealed so you could put like 600 pounds of pressure… Weisskopf: Wow, okay. Baumgartner: See… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: In other words it’s a whole different…what you were thinking. I know what you were thinking is all…you know. No that’s not…you’ve got to think about in terms of…no they put pressure on that baby and they just blew air… Weisskopf: ____ (unclear) Baumgartner: Yes, right. And that well…that just sucked them right out. Weisskopf: And did you end up with 6,000 or? Baumgartner: Well, no we ended up with about, all total I think that method left about 16 left. Weisskopf: 16 balls? Baumgartner: Yeah and then we just burned them up. You know, they’ve only got so much capacity and so that was burned up in a hurry. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: So, no big, it was no big problem. Weisskopf: Yeah, yeah. So at any rate if there is a B Reactor Museum someday… Baumgartner: I’d love to see that. I love what they’ve got, because they’ve got enough parts there to show you the complication of the front end and the back end, you know you can see all of that. The pipery…ahhh….pig tails… Weisskopf: Yeah… Baumgartner: Gauges, control room. Recognizing it’s not a little itty-bitty computer, this is bank after bank after bank of non-computerized equipment, all analog. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: To me, that’s…I think people should see that, because our kids are growing up without an analog in their mind. Weisskopf: Not even watches. Baumgartner: No, digitally and all. So consequently, I think this is a piece of history that isn’t that old. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And they would think that it’s extremely old. You know, get what I’m trying to say. I couldn’t be more for it. Weisskopf: Good. Baumgartner: I’m with it. It’s just I’ve been helped for the central reason…reactor wasn’t my big bag. I mean, I was in the 100 Areas for two years, but from 1953 and is you know, from February of 1953 to ’54, and we did the basin work. I was involved in the basin, water runs through the reactor and then runs through a basin and cools down thermally… Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And also to short half-life of the radioactive materials so that by the time it gets to the back end in 30 minutes it’s not as hot and it isn’t going to hurt river as much. The fish…we were really…okay well these basins were made out of concrete and pretty soon the joints, you know from expanding and contracting you know and now it’s hot, water is coming out at 200 degrees, now all of a sudden the water is cold coming out at the cool. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: These joints expanded, cracked, you know those basins are 12 feet deep and so pretty soon we had holes and we had as much water running out between the cracks to the river as we were getting through the main tube. So we ended up having to go in there and fill up the cracks and grout underneath the thing and stop any leaks. Weisskopf: Did you have to shut off the reactor while you did this? Baumgartner: Oh yes, yeah. And when we were doing that was when we were doing Ball 3X. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: When we were putting Ball 3X we did the basin. So we did reactor after reactor after reactor. And I was in the 100-F Area, which did F, H, and DR, and D, and then went over to B when we did B and C. And monitoring at that time, I was monitoring and we…See basins got hot because if you had a rupture before you could shut the damn thing off… Weisskopf: Something got out. Baumgartner: Something got out…well where did it go? To in the basin, and then it settled out in the basin and so we had a lot of washing to do and… Weisskopf: Before, when you emptied it out of water, was it not so hot that you could walk down there, walk around and take samples and things like that? Baumgartner: Not at first… Weisskopf: Really? Okay. Baumgartner: Not at first. What we did the first was we hosed all the concrete off and you know so when that went down the hole, you know you can’t stop that. Anyway we picked up all that hot water and that went back to the tank farms. And then we, cause see there could be part, pieces of metal… Weisskopf: Sure. Baumgartner: See the slug didn’t necessarily have to be fresh, it could be an old piece of slug. Now you’ve got it reading hotter than hell in little spots, reading 100,000 counts per minute. You know and you walk on that, 3,000 is a millirem, you’ve got 35 millirem. So you couldn’t walk on that. You know 35 millirem you could walk 30 minutes a day. So, and that’s about what they did. So they brought in 200 workers and they got to work 30 minutes each. You know going in and going… Weisskopf: You were the person who was sitting around with a clipboard and you know… Baumgartner: No that was the monitors, that’s the guys working for me. Weisskopf: What were you doing? Baumgartner: I was their boss. Weisskopf: Okay, okay. Baumgartner: I was looking at the readings they were taking. When they went down to see whether we should change the time, changing of the time was my responsibility, making sure the people didn’t get over exposed. Weisskopf: So you were getting pressure at both ends. Baumgartner: Absolutely. Weisskopf: Try to get the work done, but let’s not kill these guys either and… Baumgartner: So I was the interface to the guys out doing operations. Weisskopf: And theoretically everything you did was by a book, there weren’t a lot of subjective decisions to make. Baumgartner: Subjective decision was you don’t get over 250 millirem a week for sure. Weisskopf: But, yeah. Baumgartner: And if you were in a hot job like we were you allowed ‘em up to 50 millirem a day... Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: …and the amount of time it took to make 30 millirem, I mean 50 millirem, that’s all they got to work. Weisskopf: So there wasn’t a lot of room for discussion then. Baumgartner: No. And each guy that went in, you took his time in and you told him when the hell to get out. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And you had a loud speaker and he says ‘okay Joe Blow get your butt out.’ Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: And you expected them out. And if he didn’t’ get out soon enough then he didn’t go in again. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: Because I would go over to the old supervisor and I’d say ‘that guy didn’t listen, I don’t want him in there.’ Weisskopf: And did you find ____ (unclear) would add up to kind of what you were estimating? Baumgartner: Pretty much. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: Pretty much. Again there was a problem where the CP says one thing and the badge says another. So now you’ve got to figure out what the hell is going on. Weisskopf: Did they ever wear multiple badges? Baumgartner: Oh yes. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Oh yes, some of them, we wore like two days, some of them one day. You know you’d wear them one shift… Weisskopf: Did ever put any on your ankles? Baumgartner: Oh yes. Weisskopf: Oh you did? Baumgartner: Shoes… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: …inside the shoes, on the forehead, you know in back of the head, the chest, belly, gonads, knees… Weisskopf: At any one time how many would you be wearing? Baumgartner: …wrist. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And you’d do that, on the basin work we did that for the first three weeks. Weisskopf: And each worker could work at maybe a half an hour a day. Baumgartner: Yeah. We said the CP said you can work 30 minutes. So you’d wear those and when he’d suit up…When he’d suit up underneath, you know on the first pair of coveralls he’d have these badges clipped to it or taped and then he’d have another pair over the top of it and another pair over the top of that, so there was three pair of coveralls on. Because you didn’t want him to get contaminated…cause ahhh…if he contaminated badges it’s bad news because that’s the radiation close, that just screws up the whole radiation reading. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So we wanted to make damn sure. And then we were, when it was wet then we wore wet suits and a few things like that. It was a, getting ready took longer and going out took longer than it was to work. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So, that much I can tell you. Weisskopf: And how quickly would you get the badge readings back? The next day or? Baumgartner: We could get the reading the next day. Weisskopf: Were you pretty comfortable with the results… Baumgartner: No we wear them you know, generally speaking for the test that we did with the 10 badges, we would wear them with the badge that he wore… Weisskopf: Oh right. Baumgartner: So that we had a reference point to all these 10 measurements. And that’s, otherwise you can’t correlate it. Also too remember now this…this badge system isn’t necessarily “that accurate at low doses.” So you wanted to have enough dose on there to where you could have reasonable accuracy. And since the guy was taking 50 millirem per day in a week’s time he got 250. So 250 is a very good reading out of a film badge and you know you get good statistics. You could get a good feeling as to what his body was getting. Weisskopf: So you took the 10 badges and then looked at the single badge that was being worn by the same person and said ‘well it looks like when this badge reads this much, his feet were getting this much, his chest was getting this much…’ Baumgartner: Okay, feet…arms and feet can get 10 times what the body can get. So now is this job going to be limiting to the hands, or is this job going to be limiting the body? Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And the only way you know that is to put on the extremities. Weisskopf: And the feet especially, in that case. Baumgartner: Well, also he’s playing with hands…you don’t if he’s kneeling, so therefore the knees…you know… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Because these guys do all kinds of dumb things. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You know, I don’t want to stop them from working. You know, they might go down, they might be on their knees so you had to, we had to correlate. And you had to be sure that you weren’t going say ‘well hell he’s burning out his legs before he gets to 250,’ maybe he’s going to get to the legs 300…you know you can’t do that. So you say ‘hey, you gotta stop. We’re only gonna let you get 30 because you’re limiting to the feet.’ Get what I’m trying to say? So, even though the whole body said it was, you’re well within limits, extremity dose. And see an extremity dose went into the records also. You know, that’s also been recorded for these people. That’s in the guy’s file. Weisskopf: Because you had the badges on. Baumgartner: Right. Whatever dosimeter reading we ever put on a guy, that’s been recorded in his file. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So, there is a lot of things that were…and we were developing those kinds of thoughts because no one had ever done the basin work before. Also too, its little things like when we were on the concrete once we always kept everything wet, so when they working there we had a spray system. Weisskopf: Just for dust, keep the dust out? Baumgartner: Keep the concrete wet…and I’ll tell you why. Weisskopf: Oh, oh, oh, physically just to keep it at wet… Baumgartner: Wet, so that it can’t move. In C Basin, metal basin, they weren’t careful and on Saturday we had a whirly week and we ____ (unclear). Weisskopf: You mean it just blew the stuff out? Baumgartner: Just sucked it right out there and spread it over the countryside. So we went out one Saturday, that’s when we found the particle problem from West Area. That problem started in the 100 Areas… Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: …because we had a dry basin and the 100 Areas when the workers came in on the five-fold, all of a sudden…wow we’ve got the patrolmen coming in, we were setting the five-fold off. They shouldn’t have, you coming to work. So they called us up and so we sent a crew out there and sure enough, there was particles all over. So, we started then trying to delineate this problem. So as we were moving away from B Area, it was getting lighter and lighter and lighter, less and less specks. And we were going down the railroad, and when we were going from B Area say to 2 West Area, Suzie-Q junction. We got to the Suzie-Q junction and it was kind of clean, so the guy said ‘well hell, lets go another half mile.’ So we went down another half mile, and lo and behold it started going up. Now if the source is C, what’s it doing hot over there? And as we got toward West, we got more and more and more, higher, and higher, and higher. So we says well alright, we’ll take a carload of guys and we’ll go over to 2 West Area. So we drove over there with six guys of us and I had one guy that hadn’t gotten out of the car yet and he turned his instrument on, put the probe on the ground, and 10,000 counts per minute. “Ahhhh.” So that’s how we discovered the C-Stock, you know the REDOX plow, the REDOX, the ruthenium problem. And we delineated that that day and then we were totally confused because see a GM doesn’t tell you want the radiation coming from is, it just tells you activity and it wasn’t until we had, at that time, a 256 channel analyzer, it was a big thing. There were only two on the plant, one in 189-D and one down in 300 Area. So now we had to take samples and we took ‘em and it turns out the ruthenium was beta emitter so we were getting like bremsstrahlung on a very low energy (unclear). But the 100 Area stuff gave us a spectra, fission product. Yeah, ‘ahhh what is’, you know so it took us…and we delineated the whole problem and then we had, oh 50-100 monitors, three feet apart and straight head and every time they found a speck the guy from J.E. Jones would go over with a shovel and pick it up, put it in the bucket. Until they… Weisskopf: So these specks were from REDOX or from… Baumgartner: REDOX and from the…yeah, we picked ‘em both up. Weisskopf: Okay, but it was specks, it was not covering the ground. Baumgartner: No no, it was little flecks, you know because uh…it’s like dirt. Little you know, the stuff kind of sticks to something else, or if it was a liquid it got absorbed in a solid material, you know, and was…that’s it. So that’s, so lots of things happened and whose fault was it? Well, too damn late to worry about that, just don’t let it happen again. You know you had your investigations and then you modified your procedures and this is how things got done. Weisskopf: So, it was new industry. Baumgartner: Yes. We never had clean basins before. Hadn’t cleaned a metal basin before and that dried out faster than the concrete. Weisskopf: Wonder why… Baumgartner: Well it’s metal… Weisskopf: Concrete’s absorbent… Baumgartner: Yeah, that’s why it stayed wet. Weisskopf: Oh damp, yeah. Baumgartner: Damp, stayed wet and where the stuff would have stayed down then the air probably wouldn’t have sucked that light particle up, because it would have been tied with water. See after that, boy, it was underneath two inches of water, and water running down the sides and all that kind of stuff. It increased the cost of doing the job, but it should of because we can’t afford the risk of letting things get away from us, that takes us away from T Plant. Weisskopf: Well, it actually is closer to reactor which is very interesting because people, you know, there wasn’t much radiation in the normal cooling water, but over years and years of operation stuff had settled out there. Baumgartner: Well, it was from the particulate coming from the ruptures. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: It was the ruptures that were… Weisskopf: Pure water in itself will come out perfectly… Baumgartner: Pure water and if there is no rupture it will stay why…it will be hot in the sense that you’ve activated the oxygen and nitrogen, but see that’s a short half-life material and so by the time it gets 30 minutes, it’s gone. You know, that’s like 10, 15-20 half-lives. Anything that goes more than 10-20 half-lives is pretty much gone and it’s not that high to start with, you know you’re talking about a couple thousand count per minute so what went back to the river was really low, except when you had a rupture. There are no filters out there. At least there weren’t then. I don’t think there is any now. When a rupture, but see now we have such fast equipment that…. Weisskopf: You mean in a regular reactor? Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Such as if the primary coolant ruptured into the secondary. Baumgartner: Well no… Weisskopf: Or something like that… Baumgartner: That one we could handle, but even then you had to stop, you know you had the water flow. It has to go through…but, see most of that flow, a rupture would have gone through the cooling water and goes right down to the basin and out she goes and as far as I know there’s no filter on that. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: And I don’t think it would have caught these small particles anyway. Weisskopf: Well it would have been… Baumgartner: You can’t drive 55,000 gallons, let’s be honest. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: You just can’t drive that through a HEPA filter. Weisskopf: And change it every hour. Baumgartner: Yeah. So, that make any sense? Weisskopf: Oh yeah. It all makes sense, it’s all good, and I think before we burn you out completely. You have your burn in out in how long you can talk, you know but it’s all relevant. You know, right now we are looking at T Plant, some of the things that ____ (unclear)… Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: So a lot of things you talked about were great for that, but the work at the reactor with the Ball 3X) and the basins is the first time I have talked to somebody who worked on cleaning out the basins. So that was interesting. Baumgartner: Oh there were a lot of things. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: I was very lucky because I got to move. I got into places…. Weisskopf: Everybody did. I don’t know of anybody who had one job for like 20 years. Baumgartner: No, no. Weisskopf: Certainly not in the early days. Baumgartner: No, not during time of operation. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: The most you were allowed to stay in any one place is a year, except when I went to 2345 I stayed from, you know 1954 to 1958. Weisskopf: Did they encourage you to move around? Baumgartner: Oh absolutely, they wanted you to be able to go anyplace. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Since I had been in the 100 Areas they didn’t hesitate to call me if they had a problem out there to whip me out there. Weisskopf: So that must of been the security issues of not letting anybody learn too much about any particular process, that was less of an issue then. --- I wish we had more opportunity to do it in a more relaxed, you know sort of an ongoing thing, but other people too. Because otherwise you know you spend your whole life in this career and now we’re asking for this much of it. Baumgartner: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. Weisskopf: And, you’re getting just a little tip of the iceberg sample of it. Baumgartner: And there is no way, I don’t think there is anyway that we can give all to you in any way. Weisskopf: Some people like to write their autobiographies, some people go teach a class, but otherwise there is no direct ongoing way to ____ (unclear). Baumgartner: See for instance like the first and third Wednesday of every month at the… Weisskopf: Right… Baumgartner: …the monitors meet, guys that I used to work with. Weisskopf: Like Bob is there... Baumgartner: Yeah. And these guys have that early knowledge because they’re all retirees and they all had come in and either like, most of the guys that come in about 1949. Prior to that, it was the guys that were management were then down monitoring. Weisskopf: Right. Baumgartner: In my early years, I had an instrument in my hand a lot. If we were really deeply concerned about the radiation problems and that, I went in. I wouldn’t let my monitors go in. Up until ’58, at which time then the union had come in and only the monitors could monitor and then we had to step back, but I was allowed to go until ’58 and the reason for that is because I had been in 2345 Building a long time and we had an interesting monitoring problem. Secondly, I was working on monitoring problems, the doses associated with taking this reading and then what’s the dose, coming up with rules of thumb. We worked, I worked on that. Also too, I was involved in investigations and no one had more incidents than we had in the 200 Areas, it was profound. Whether it happened at REDOX or T Plant or 2345, or 231, or at B Plant, or you know…it was all…I mean and there was a lot going on, a lot we were learning and from investigating. And then you didn’t always get the truth from everybody when they told you oh I did this, I did that, you had to kind of figure out…that’s not the way it was…the way it really was and then after you tell them the way it was, then they try and say ‘yeah that’s the way was.’ But it, sometimes to go, it took quite a bit of effort to….because people are naturally defensive, you know it’s their job…yeah, yeah there you got involved. And no one wants to admit to a mistake, I don’t care who it is…whether, today’s world is no different and it was hard to get some of these things out. We had lots of interesting incidents you know like a piece of plutonium in a guys arm…that’s in… had a guy put his hand who put his hand in the bottom of a TTPA solution of plutonium and it went right through the glove and everything right into his hand you know, millions of ____ (s/l dperem). Days and days where he never went home obviously. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Millions of ____ (s/l dperem) and I was involved in all of them. I got involved in all of, I got pulled of my regular assignment. I also built analog models to see how well DDTA works, EDTA, DTPA, how well these things work in terms of removing things that were causing confusion. Weisskopf: There wasn’t anywhere to go for the books right? Baumgartner: We were writing it, we were writing it. And no one knew how much to give, you know, I give how much, what can I expect? And from the very meager data that we had and the very meager number of cases we had, we developed models that have held up very well, held up for 40 years. So, the work we did wasn’t that bad. I think that we did, I think personally we did very good work. I think the guys that I worked with were sterling. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Oh God, they, it was, I guess it was the right people at the right time. Really and truly it was, I’m very proud of the record we’ve got when you think we didn’t know anything and we never killed anybody. And the guys that we could have hurt, you know the guys with the heavy incidents, not too many of those died say from like leukemia or anything like that. Most of them died of heart, and not at young ages…79, 80…oh all this kind of stuff, and those that did die from things that….they’ve been compensated as far as I know, they might have had to go to court and all that, but nevertheless I don’t think we’ve been very belligerent. So, it’s just, I don’t know… Weisskopf: It’s interesting because every industry has a fatality factor right…and you guys were starting out in an industry that no track record and look back is how you go and… Baumgartner: Yeah… Weisskopf: …compare it to other industries, other chemical industries, heavy industries… Baumgartner: Yeah. We’re the only industry that I know that has…since people aren’t dying right from the amount of radiation they got based on the epidemiology, that we have healthy workers and they predicated that, because we got our physicals and we got monitored and so consequently we must have seen things early and so therefore they didn’t die. The alternative to that is that maybe fellas…they didn’t get as much radiation as you thought they got. Weisskopf: Yeah, okay. Baumgartner: You know that’s an alternative. Maybe we weren’t healthier than anybody else, I don’t think we were, and just because we were getting medical doesn’t necessarily mean we aren’t dying from heart, stroke, or everything else just like everybody else is. So, but how do you prove that we didn’t have as much radiation as they’re putting in the files? So, I worked with Ethel Gilbert for five years who was the epidemiologist for the plant, who said we should have so many deaths and Jack Fick’s is now the guy that has that. I worked for him and we proved, or I proved I thought, that the amount of fast neutron dose that was given to our employees was considerably less than what they’ve got on the file. Weisskopf: Really? Baumgartner: Yeah. Because they automatically added 15 millirem per week of neutrons to every worker, operator, pipe fitter… Weisskopf: Just as a safety factor? Baumgartner: Yeah it’s just a booby factor. And that’s what makes our numbers look so big see…the amount of neutrons exceeds the gamma and that’s not possible. That’s where I came from. Weisskopf: What… Baumgartner: That’s the safety factor to give you the best estimate of how many people should be dying by when and what. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: And see okay you say well we should be getting so many deaths, well then if they’re not dying, now what? Well, they said we have a safety factor, healthy employees, when in truth maybe your estimate of exposure is a little bit high. Weisskopf: The other alternative is that the radiation was good for them. Baumgartner: That’s an alternative which many of us in Health Physics have indicated for the simple reason, background is 300 millirem per year from the sun, from the ground, and so you ask yourself if we are getting 300 millirem you know, we’ve been having that since birth, even before birth, is that injuring us? “Are we any dumber than the Ape man was?” 10,000 years, 100,000 years…everything was higher then than it is now, because now the things decayed you know. Every 94,000 years is a half-life or 10, or whatever uranium 238 I think is quite a bit, but 2345. So you ask yourself these questions and you come up with, you know you wonder whether people aren’t better off. Weisskopf: Do things like bacteria have the same susceptibility to radiation as the human cell? Baumgartner: Yes, that’s…fundamentally bacteria are one cell… Weisskopf: Okay… Baumgartner: And so therefore… Weisskopf: it’s not as if you’re perhaps killing off bacteria before your hurting yourself. Baumgartner: No, no you’re getting mutants so they are getting used to…. I can believe that. But, I think we’re generating more mutants via the chemical route then we are ever with radiation. Personally, that just…and the reason for that is 10 to the 10th photons per centimeter squared is a rad. Okay, that’s 10 to the 10th. Now lets go back, how many atoms or molecules are there in a molecular wave and it’s 6 x 7 to the 23rd …okay so I if can’t see a million, oh so I’ll be generous, a billion. One part in a billion is what? Take 9 from 23, you get 14. That’s still 4 orders of magnitude higher than 1 rad. So therefore chemically, bigger numbers. One part per million is 10 to the 17th, kinds of things…we’re talking about 10 to the 10th which is a rad and we’re talking about 0.3 a year. You get the idea of the…the chemical in my judgement is much more fearsome or fearing. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Due to the fact that’s seven orders of magnitude or 10 orders of magnitude. Different, higher and so therefore that’s a much more severe problem. Weisskopf: Interesting. Baumgartner: Am I, give you a coruler, to me I find 10 to the 10th a good-sized number. This is what my…am I making sense? Weisskopf: Yeah. But there is also the fact though that we are exposed to the chemicals every day of our life in every situation. Where radiation… Baumgartner: That we’re willing to accept, just like we are willing to accept 65,000 deaths on the highway. Weisskopf: That’s where, I know. Baumgartner: And that’s per year. See, so there’s a funny, we have a funny sense of value. Weisskopf: What do you think it is that put nuclear, all things nuclear, in the light that their in today? Baumgartner: Fear of the unknown. None of us people could get up in front of a hearing, a senate hearing and say, will one rad, how much torque will that give? I can’t tell you. You know, they can tell you what a mile of road will do, but they can tell you what a rad (unclear) will do. Weisskopf: But, that mile of road is only based on statistics from what happened the year before… Baumgartner: Right. Weisskopf: …it’s not like a physical thing. Baumgartner: Right and we couldn’t, and see even though you haven’t had an incident you start with epidemiology and you play games. A case in point is the reactor incident in New York, you know, where the reactor blew up and they’re arguing, two PhD’s are arguing, whether it caused a half a death or a whole death. Weisskopf: Right, statistically, yeah. Baumgartner: Yeah. I rest my case. And, and these arguments gets enraged in the papers, scare the hell out of everybody. Weisskopf: I presume the same thing is going to be happening with genetically engineered things for better or worse, for right or wrong. Baumgartner: I don’t think so. Weisskopf: You don’t think people are going be real worried about it? Baumgartner: No. If they were, there would be upheaval…and there is no upheaval in the paper…not like there was against nuclear. Starting in ’56 my God anti-nuclear was…Ralph Nader was in the paper everyday. Weisskopf: But it wasn’t nuclear reactors back then was it? It was nuclear… Baumgartner: He sure as hell did go after…well yeah…but see they equated everything to bomb. There was nothing but a bomb. You didn’t have a reactor, that didn’t mean anything. Weisskopf: It was just a controlled bomb. Baumgartner: Yeah, I mean it was a bomb, it was a bomb. Everything was bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. Nuclear power, didn’t even want to, they wouldn’t let us hardly build any reactors in the United States. I think we have what about 10, 12. France has about 30. You know, they’re tweaking their nose at all of us saying go ahead let their price of gasoline get high, we don’t care we’ll go build another six reactors. They’ve operated now for 50 years and they’re doing really fine. Our reactors have done fine. I mean the worst criticality incident we had might have cause a half a death…maximum a one death. Now is that something to be outrageously feared? Weisskopf: No. Baumgartner: How many reactor years have we got? We must have, by now we must have 300-400 years of reactor years with experience and we’re not even thinking about it. Weisskopf: But when you started, did you feel like you were getting into the industry that was going to replace the oil industry? I mean was it… Baumgartner: No, no, no. No, no that didn’t’ happen until…we never went into those kinds of things until 1956. For instance when Eisenhower, he had the Atoms for Peace Program where we gave away 500 reactors you know swimming the pool type reactors. Khadafy got three of them at 100 kilowatts which is two bombs a year for those people who…If you want to see something interesting, Dan Rather had a special one time in which he was reporting on how many airplanes had been left in the desert. We didn’t need them you know, B-24s and B-17s, and… Weisskopf: During what period? Baumgartner: After World War II. Weisskopf: Just left them there? Baumgartner: Just left them there, it didn’t pay to bring them back. The thing that was interesting is…all of the tails were missing. You know the part that rises? Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Here you’ve got 300 airplanes on the deck and not one of them has got a tail. Now what’s with that? Well that’s strange and then I read the Washington State Law, which allows Boeing Airplane Company to put 1,500 pounds of uranium into the tail of a ’47, 500 pounds into a 707. Did you know that? Weisskopf: Just for balance? Baumgartner: Yeah, cause see uranium weighs (unclear) of 19, lead is only 11. So that for the same volume I almost get twice as much weight and you don’t have that much space. However, it’s only depleted uranium. Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: So, we’re getting rid of that big pile of depleted uranium that we…. However, what is depleted uranium? Weisskopf: It’s uranium that’s been through a reactor or a separations process. Baumgartner: And what’s the primary nucleon? Weisskopf: 238. Baumgartner: Beautiful. And what is 238? It’s the mother atom of plutonium. Weisskopf: If you put it, yeah… Baumgartner: If I put a neutron into 238 it goes uranium 239, later it goes off and becomes plutonium 239, ahhh so… we let 300 airplanes with 500 pounds of uranium go to Khadafy. I’m sure that he can put them through a roller and make ¼ inch thick uranium sheets and line 17-foot pool reactors with that and let all the… Weisskopf: Make is similar, yeah… Baumgartner: Yeah, and let it sit, but who the hell cares? And you know then every once and awhile, maybe once a year or once every two years, you to take that out, put another sheet in there and then go over to a laboratory with a hood and dissolve that baby up and… The chemistry of plutonium is well-known by everybody. I mean if Russia’s got it, Khadafy’s got it. So, the guy, he doesn’t have to steal plutonium from the Israelis. Just like the Israelis didn’t steal it from anybody else, they made their own. So how can you keep, with 500 reactors out there, how can you keep plutonium not from happening to people? Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Anyway and that happened to us. Once we knew those reactors were going against our judgement, because Eisenhower says no we want to let everybody have the nuclear, because we want them to make the measurements on metal fatigue and so on, so on. It sounded good, but you buy this problem which we did. Which we have, and anyway I helped write state law. Weisskopf: You helped what? Baumgartner: Write the state law for us being an agreement state. Weisskopf: Which state law. Baumgartner: Washington State. Weisskopf: About what. Baumgartner: Nuclear. Weisskopf: Oh. Baumgartner: Go read it, it’s down at the library. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I think its 208 or something like that. And then you go back in there and you look at what they can put into an airplane and there is a whole bunch of little things in there that scare the hell out of ya. You know for a guy who’s been in radiation protection. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: So, that’s… Weisskopf: Interesting. It’s a whole tangent I hadn’t imagined. Baumgartner: Yeah, well…you’re not, you’ve never been in the field. Weisskopf: No. Baumgartner: And so you wouldn’t…would you ask a question? No. I’ve given you more information then the questions you’ve asked, because there are interesting little aspects that go with this whole thing. They are not necessarily good for the T Plant. Weisskopf: Well and the other thing is, just asking questions might be not what’s interesting or ____ (unclear) other things you’ve done. You know I might be asking questions that don’t really relate to you too. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: So I think that I always do better if I shut-up a bit and let people talk about the things.. Baumgartner: Lets us talk… Weisskopf: …they’re comfortable about or interested in, or find important. Baumgartner: Yeah, and all of us have had, like you say, had interesting careers. There isn’t hardly any guy that you’ll talk to that doesn’t felt that he did a good job. At least in radiation protection. Weisskopf: Now did you have any friends who quit because they didn’t think it was safe? Baumgartner: Oh yes. Weisskopf: Or didn’t like the management? Baumgartner: Oh yes, oh yes…lots. We brought in 500 chemists and we lost 75 the first year. Weisskopf: Just the green… Baumgartner: From as soon as they found out what the hell was here, they didn’t want any part of that… nuclear bomb. I had a good friend who no longer could do the job that I ended up getting after he left. Signing off on all those weapons. Weisskopf: Oh, not for… TAPE #2 SIDE B Baumgartner: Like for instance an H-Bomb, that’s so hellaciously large and that’s not against just military. That has to be against civilian population. Weisskopf: What military installation is that big? Baumgartner: Is that big? You know, you know… Weisskopf: New York City is that big…. Baumgartner: Yeah right. And so you get rid of the back up for the military which is the people, and that’s what H-Bomb, and it’s so hellaciously large that you’ve ruined your political system if you drop it. I mean you know you drop seven bombs on Russia and you haven’t got enough big cities left or enough politicians left to do anything. And if you let those people, if you warn them and then you destroyed the city after they’re out, what do you do with all these locusts? I mean they, just you have anarchy so, there isn’t anybody that I know of in the political system that is so paranoid that would use a weapon. The reason they won’t is because, like Khadafy, he’s only got three cities and then he hasn’t got anything left. I mean what’s he going to be ruler of? You know, so you drop nine bombs on America and you’ve got like 75 million people, what are you going to do with 75 million people out in the countryside. Weisskopf: Now, would somebody have stayed here working at 2345 if they were adamantly against nuclear weapons? And the policy of having nuclear weapons? Baumgartner: Yeah, but I didn’t meet too many of those. The only one I met was one the guy who was signing off when he realized how many weapons there were, the number was so large, it was so mind boggling that to build any more he thought was, you know, crazy. Weisskopf: And politically you were still comfortable with what was going on? ____ (unclear) Baumgartner: Well we were…. Weisskopf: …reasonable approach. Baumgartner: I felt much more comfortable once we had the H-Bomb, because see the A-Bomb is small enough to where it could be a tactical weapon and we built a lot of cannon shells, but there is no… The H-Bomb is a whole different thing and if you ever escalate, my God, I would assume soon the political boys would take care of us. Weisskopf: So you thought that the sheer lunacy of even trying to use one… Baumgartner: The sheer lunacy of going against America with 30,000 weapons is lunacy, even if you figure on getting 90%… Weisskopf: Right, it’s still not… Baumgartner: No…it’s just crazy. And we can’t afford to go against Russia even with 6,000. I mean 60. What are we going to do against 60? Or 600? I mean it’s crazy. Weisskopf: You would have more deaths civilian and otherwise in the first half-hour of the war then…. Baumgartner: Yeah, you would no longer have any capability, in my judgement, of attacking further. In other words, there is no way you can invade us nor can we invade them because there is too much anarchy. There is just no law and order. I don’t care what anybody says. Weisskopf: So you thought it was a reasonable approach to international…. Baumgartner: Yeah, the bigger pile was, the better I liked it, because now I don’t care…even a little paranoia stops you from using it. You no longer have to worry about large paranoia, just even a little, even a little bit. Any sane man, even a sane man is scared much less a paranoid. That’s the way I thought. I’ve let my views be known and you didn’t agree or not agree, but that’s the way I felt. It just didn’t make sense. There aren’t 600 targets out there or 6,000 targets out in this world, there just aren’t. And then when people started talking about China… I went to China, 25 years ago admittedly, but I was worried, but there is no way in hell China can do anything. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I mean what can they do with a sampan? You know, sure they got 7,000 or 10,000 sampans, but they aren’t going to be able to come across the ocean. I mean remember when they invaded Vietnam? Maybe that was before your time. After we left Vietnam, China went to invade Vietnam. And they got 7 miles into the country and couldn’t go any further, and you know why? The single transportation that they had was a single railroad line that were bringing supplies from 1,000 miles back out to the front. So when they sent a soldier to the front, he had a knapsack full of whatever the hell they put in there, but he can’t put a ton in there. I mean if he puts 90 pounds in there for a little guy like that he’s got a lot. Okay, how much food is that, how much ammunition is that, etc. How long will he last? A week? 10 days? 15 at the most, and then what does he do? Then you’ve got to retreat…and that’s exactly what happened. So they put…ah…Remember the Tiamen Square fiasco? Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Well, I was in Peking a few years before that and to give you an example of a problem. When I was there, there were two filling stations in Peking for the military vehicles and for everything else. During the day the military vehicles were loaded with food stuffs which they brought into town and dropped off and the people then picked it up with (unclear) and then the military, at night then could go out, pick up soldiers and bring them in. Well, how many, I think they had like 15-20 trucks one-ton trucks, well how many guys can you pick up with 25 trucks, until you can get an army of 10,000 guys? It takes weeks and if you recall they were running around Tiamen Square for weeks before they finally quelled them and that’s because it took them that long to get the 10,000 GI’s in there to do it. So you can…to me China is not a threat. They’re a threat in terms of nuclear, but their sure not a threat…now if they could blow us out of the world okay then you know that’s a threat. Now they might be the ones who might use a nuclear weapon with a rocket. Weisskopf: Theoretically, I mean the theory that anybody who understands them well enough and knows how to use them offensively, would never do it again somebody who has equal weapons. Baumgartner: No and they’re even more conservative than we are, so…Anyway I… Weisskopf: You can’t be world power without it… Baumgartner: Right, right. Weisskopf: You don’t feel like your part of the big boys unless you do have the capability. Baumgartner: Right, right. Weisskopf: Germany, France, or England, or China. Baumgartner: Right, right, right. So, anyway…I have gone to these countries just to see what’s, you know, what’s there. To give you an example, inside of Peking there are two roads, four lanes. One going east and west and one going north and south and as soon as you get to the edge of the city…now how do you know you’re at the edge of city? Because that’s the last house, which is a high-rise apartment, and then it’s a two-lane highway. And how do I know that was a two-lane highway? Because we went to the China Wall. So we went out north and went to the China Wall, and then when we came in we were going to go to the coastline and as soon as we got out of the south end it was a two-lane highway. And if you want to see how they made the road, down at Kweilin which is way down south, they were making it in three-foot squares and they had a manual tamper like we have you know, and a three foot square that big was all that that half-ton truck could hold. So they made it in three-foot squares. Can you imagine going down the highway, and I was looking at this, and there was this quilt of three-foot squares and when I saw that I, you know, I couldn’t imagine it until I asked somebody. I said “what is this?” and he says well that’s….so each truck load gave a three-foot square, and the next truck. When I saw all that I says why worry? We’ve got enough power, no one is going to attack. We will not use it, because there aren’t enough targets anyplace. And if you notice all of the stuff that, they’ve always stayed with explosives. Weisskopf: They’ve what? Baumgartner: Everybody’s always stayed with explosives, TNT, plastic…they’ve stayed away from nuclear. Weisskopf: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting in 50 year’s time. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: There has never been an occasion to use one. Baumgartner: The only nuclear material we have every used against anybody was when we were at the Gulf War… Weisskopf: Oh the depleted uranium… Baumgartner: The depleted uranium shells… Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Oh I was upset when I heard that. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Wow. Weisskopf: Just because it’s not a good metal to be breathing in or? Baumgartner: You’re spreading uranium all over hell. Weisskopf: Oh uranium that could be useful to somebody. Baumgartner: Yeah, my feeling is there is a, I’ve got these five million shells, I mean we’ve given them a gift. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Does he have to steal anything? No. (unclear), you know the guy is not an ignorant guy. Weisskopf: Can you buy uranium on the open market? Baumgartner: No. Weisskopf: It’s regulated or? Baumgartner: Well, read the state law and I’ll give you a hint. After the second, third resale value of an airplane it is no longer controlled. Weisskopf: The airplane is new and then it’s sold used…. Baumgartner: And then sold used, and sold used again, and when that happens it’s no longer regulated, no longer put on the books. And if you go to some of these small airports you will see 707’s with tails missing. Weisskopf: Okay, I’m gonna watch for it. Baumgartner: Watch for it when you’re in these foreign countries. Weisskopf: How many pounds do they put in? Baumgartner: 500. Weisskopf: Oh, okay. Baumgartner: It’s an appreciable amount. You don’t have to, I mean that will make quite a bit of ¼ inch thick sheeting. Thermal neutrons will not go through more than a ¼ inch. Weisskopf: And is it depleted uranium only because it’s more valuable for other uses when it’s not depleted? Or? Baumgartner: Well, 235. Weisskopf: Or is it that they won’t sell real uranium in a metallic version? Baumgartner: Oh they sell regular uranium all the time. That’s in the open market. There’s a uranium market in the world. Weisskopf: But, why do they use depleted in the back of… Baumgartner: Oh because we have this big warehouse full of it you know that’s about 17 miles long and 18 miles wide that’s… Weisskopf: Really? Okay. Baumgartner: You know where we sucked out the 0.35% and made reactor material at 5%, so… Weisskopf: I never heard that before. Baumgartner: Well, and then you, what do you do with the reactor material that you rerun? You know, we are such a rich nation that we have not yet at this point in time redissolved a single slug that has gone through a power reactor. Weisskopf: That’s right. Let alone, taking depleted uranium, mixing in plutonium and saying hey we got fuel again. Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: Well…and we have no plans to recycle fuel. Baumgartner: Not that I, yeah we’re going to de-bury it. It’s crazy. Weisskopf: Have you at all read about what they do in France with their fuel? Baumgartner: um-hum. Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: They’re recycling. Weisskopf: How modern or different is it from what you were doing here? Baumgartner: Not any more modern than we proposed, which we already know all about because we had done all the preliminary, we’ve done all the chemistry. Weisskopf: Oh, the one that was going to be back east, that was the one they were going to build. Baumgartner: Yeah, well France has, I think, three of them. Weisskopf: Okay, they ship hot fuel around to various plants. Baumgartner: No, no, no they remake it. Weisskopf: No, but they ship it from the reactor to a separations plant. Baumgartner: To a separations plant. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: Yes, then they remake it. Then see, what people don’t understand is that the plutonium that’s in there is really much better than the plutonium that we’ve got because our plutonium is weapons grade, but if you want a reactor grade plutonium…. Weisskopf: Oh… Baumgartner: …you want something that has maybe like 50% of 240. Weisskopf: You like that… Baumgartner: Yeah, cause when it splits, when it hits the neutrons, see instead of giving you…ahh let me see, uranium is 1.4 neutrons, I think, per event. Yeah and plutonium is I think 1.9, 239; 240 I think is 2.6…so now you get 1.6 atoms of plutonium back for every atom used…ha ha….I mean breeder concept is here to stay, now every ton of uranium becomes a ton of plutonium and ….MEV’s is enormous, 9.3 MEV per event…oh God. Weisskopf: It’s a whole different kind of energy production then we have ever had before. Baumgartner: Yeah well… Weisskopf: Especially if you burn it…. Baumgartner: In the 50’s when we through the mathematics of it we said that we have enough uranium on hand at that time, just the uranium part, that we would have 400 years with a 2% growth per year. You know where we go to reactors, and if we went the breeder concept, we have no idea how much. I mean it’s like having 10,000 oil fields. Because now instead of 0.35% of the uranium going into plutonium atoms, you’ve got to stop talking about the whole works. And 0.35 is something like the factor of 300. So now 400 years x 300. You know you say to yourself…well…and that’s without the new found uranium, without…so…it’s such a large number that I guess people didn’t believe it. You know because at least the Americans didn’t. So, it’s just a… I could study, but I stopped worrying about studies in ’67, by that time we had done all the ways there were. We had done all the recovery. We already had the classification. We had them on a monolith, with making it into a great big monolith of concrete, with you know, which was do you want to go with what levels? There were two other methods for making little glass balls…so there was a whole bunch of methods that we had developed all here. Weisskopf: How much waste was there going to be, or is there in France from a modern efficient, recycling of hot fuel. Baumgartner: Each reactor produces a tube of material 17 feet long and one-foot in diameter per year. Weisskopf: A tube of unusable material? Baumgartner: Of fission products, not plutonium and not uranium. Weisskopf: But, which you know you can take out and reuse. 17 feet long and how big around? Baumgartner: One foot in diameter. Weisskopf: And that would be very hot stuff. Baumgartner: No necessarily, because you’ve also taken out the strontium and you’ve also taken out the cobalt. Weisskopf: I wonder if they’re doing that in France… Baumgartner: Yes, yes, yes. Weisskopf: Okay. Baumgartner: They’re using the technology we developed in the ‘60s. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I can tell you that right now. The separations plant is a PUREX plant. Weisskopf: And do they have a permanent waste storage for the stuff they… Baumgartner: Yes they do…yes they do. But remember now, these old slugs, these old 17-foot long, some of them are innocuous almost. They’ve been around 25 years, so after 25 years as far as I’m concerned that’s no longer a problem. But, you leave it where it’s at and it’s not that big of deal. So there, I think they’ve got what 30 reactors, so they’ve got 30 of these tubes per year. I mean, you know, if you can put them in the ground and if they’re not generating enough heat anymore, especially the old ones, you don’t need to you know hardly do anything with them. You know…a little bit of water-cooling and that’s just undoable, you know to a pipe. Weisskopf: Was there any talk 25 years ago getting the tanks emptied out in the 200 Areas? Baumgartner: Oh yes, oh yes, that’s when we talked about getting the bismuth and the aluminum and all that type of thing. Weisskopf: But they never took the time or the money to set up a system of doing it? Baumgartner: We did all the preliminary work, like I call the test tube work, so we know what the reaction, we know what it takes to do it. Yes. So, deep geological storage was just the ____ enthima, I mean that was crazy, crazy, crazy, all that uranium. And that’s all 5% and we haven’t burned 5%… Weisskopf: Oh…in a modern reactor. Baumgartner: In a modern reactor is 5% uranium 235. Weisskopf: So, it’s still more enriched than natural uranium. Baumgartner: Oh absolutely, but at least an order of magnitude. Weisskopf: So if you just pull out the uranium, isotopes and all, you end up with something that’s more enriched than… Baumgartner: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Weisskopf: And there’s how many thousands of tons waiting to be buried. Baumgartner: Oh Jesus. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: I mean… Weisskopf: It’s interesting. Baumgartner: I’m sorry, it’s crazy. We’re such a rich country we don’t need to do that. Weisskopf: And oil is not so expensive yet. Baumgartner: No it’s not very high yet, power’s not high yet. Did you know that some of the cheapest power shortly is going to be in that one spot? Weisskopf: Yeah? Baumgartner: Well because we were not satisfied until we had put a penalty on the Hydroelectric power plants of 500 million dollars per year. That’s how much the fish are costing us right now. So right now, they can’t sell power from the dams which cost roughly I think 1.6 cents a kilowatt or maybe a tenth of that, but it now costs 5.4 cents and we can make power out here, I know but it’d 4.6. So nuclear power right now is cheaper than dam power. Weisskopf: That’s interesting. Baumgartner: And gas power is now going to be about 12 cents, maybe 18 cents, I don’t know I haven’t seen the latest numbers on the BTUs. The same with oil, see oil doesn’t have to pay the tax. They are burning 24 dollars a barrel type of thing, they’re not paying like we are a few dollars a gallon you know. Weisskopf: Interesting. Baumgartner: So, and these are…we, all of that is in that library out there, I can tell you that now, because all of those became documents that we wrote and that we used to go to meetings, because you know the Health Physics was kind of interested in going to nuclear power, because after all that was our future because we knew ultimately that these reactors would shut down. And so for the monitors and the workers to work, they were going to have to go to reactors and so our future was in private power, you know by the nuclear power. So, we obviously as…since that’s the kind of thing that health physicists, you don’t need them except in you know nuclear plants and separations plants, you know and canyon. So, consequently, they wanted to have all of the reasons why power should be coming along. Anyway, that’s… Weisskopf: Well, it’s interesting how we can move off in other directions so easily, I like that. Baumgartner: Remember that we worked on all of that really early. You know people always say…You haven’t heard Nader say anything in the last 10 years against nuclear power. It isn’t there, because he’s got to read 70,000 documents and lawyers are notoriously famous for reading about two or three and that’s it. Weisskopf: Were you looking forward to retirement when the time came? Baumgartner: Yeah, I had spent 44 years. Weisskopf: Yeah. Baumgartner: It was long enough, I think it was time for guys like me to go away and let the young guys… No I didn’t have any problem with that. Weisskopf: Still enjoy living in Richland? Baumgartner: Oh absolutely. There’s no traffic. Weisskopf: That’s right. Baumgartner: Short distance. Weisskopf: You don’t realize it until you go anywhere else. Baumgartner: I just came from Phoenix, one and a half million people, like I said 100 blocks took me 45 minutes. I mean I could drive to Pasco in 15. Weisskopf: But why do you need to go to Pasco? Baumgartner: Yeah, but I’m saying…you know. Weisskopf: You’d have to find a reason to go… Baumgartner: Yeah. Weisskopf: No, I laugh literally, I’m self-employed so I work at home and I put 3,000 miles a year on my car. Baumgartner: So, hardly pays to buy a new one. Weisskopf: No it doesn’t, not at all. Baumgartner: You’re rusting through, just from sitting. Weisskopf: But no, it’s easy to live around here. How long have you been in this house? Baumgartner: 1965. I had it built, first owner. We had lots of first owners here. There is only about three of us left and you’d expect that. Weisskopf: I’m going to turn this off now. Baumgartner: Go ahead. [End of Interview] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 38 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Baumgartner (2 PARTS) Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with William Baumgartner conducted by the B Reactor Museum Association. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F93ee156bf46d941b4d9b5e5aba9f1639.jpg c9e9467a12728ad2773706a589bd69cb https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F51d399f9b332ecd3ff88a077a2397164.mp4 b36dcb106c274666d29d9290ef95c177 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Douglas O' Reagan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Cliff Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Douglas O’Reagan: Okay. To start off, would you please pronounce and spell your name for us? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> William Cliff: Yes. I’m Dr. William C. Cliff. W-I-L-L-I-A-M, C is the middle initial, and Cliff, C-L-I-F-F— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: All right. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: --like a mountain cliff. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Thank you. My name is Douglas O’Reagan. I’m conducting an oral history interview with Dr. Cliff on May 5th, 2016. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University’s Tri-Cities. We’ll be speaking with Dr. Cliff about his experiences working around the Tri-Cities community over the 20th Century. To start us off, could you tell us a little bit about your life growing up before you came to this part of the world. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yeah. I was actually born in Idaho, and then we moved around to Oregon and then to Utah. And then got married in 1969 in Colorado. Took a job with NASA in Huntsville, Alabama, and that’s where we moved to and we lived there for about six or seven years. There were about seven of us that were from around the United States that were hired to work on a special project at NASA. That gave us quite a bit of fun. It was electro-optic systems and we worked on those. And of course we worked into other things while we were there at NASA as well. Huntsville—if you were raised in the West, Huntsville’s a little bit different. For the first years I was there, I never had an American boss. All my bosses were the old Peenemünde group. The Germans--Von Braun, Stuhlinger, Geissler, Horne, Dahm, Krause, and so on. Very nice people, very knowledgeable people. We went down and I got to work on a lot of electro-optics—laser systems for probing the atmosphere and for looking at fluid flow. After which, I got—was over our physics and chemistry experiments in space and was in charge of the first commercial product in space, which was monodispersed latex spheres. So got involved in an awfully lot of things, and finally got involved in the shuttle. Worked on the heat transfer for the solid rocket boosters and the external tank. So my working time seems like it almost started there just about the time of the shuttle and then sort of ended just about the time the shuttle ended. So I guess it was fate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: What time frame was that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well, about 1970—well, the shuttle started taking design back in ’69, ’70, ’71. That’s when I was running the code for—of course, we were doing a lot of other things, too. Like I say, seven of us were hired to work on a special electro-optics project for measuring the wind fields near the launch vehicles. Because the last decision made before launch is, do I have an atmospheric window? So that was sort of important, too. As a young scientist—engineer space scientist, you had all the toys you’d ever want. Because by this time, NASA had become very popular to the American people. And in 1969, with the Apollo-11 launch liftoff and landing on the moon and returning, NASA could do no wrong. As with many times in history, there’s a gloried agency within the United States. At that time, of course, NASA took over. Von Braun, the head of it, could do no wrong. So as a young scientist, I had every conceivable toy you could imagine: laser Doppler systems, probability density analyzers, I had a Mach-3 wind tunnel that I could use at my discretion. We really had a lot of fun for a young engineer. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: So what brought you to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well, the Tri-Cities was very interesting. We had a child, Christina, in Huntsville, Alabama. And before she got school aged, we wanted to come back to the West. Both my wife and I were from the West. It’s just like salmon returning. You want to come back, same place. So we looked around, and I happened to call out here. It looked like I was first going to go to Boulder, Colorado and do some work for NOAA. But I called a friend out here at the Hanford site, and he knew that I did a lot of wind characteristics for NASA. And he said, what would you think about moving out here? I said, well, that sounded like it might be kind of good. So they flew me out, I gave a presentation on laser Doppler velocimetry, which we really were the heads of in the world at that time, at NASA. They had some very, very good people. So I gave a talk on that out here. Chuck Elderkin said, when can you be here, in two weeks? I said, no, no, I’ve got some payloads I have to still get ready for. So signed up to come up here and work for Chuck Elderkin and Chuck Simpson and Bill Sandusky and a lot of these really interesting people in the atmospheric world. And as I mentioned, I think this was the largest atmospheric complex in the United States, because you had to worry about a release going downwind. So you had a huge amount of sensors in this area. And in fact, in my work, in dealing with some of the correlation work that we did, we had seen the work that had been done out here as well. So I was very interested in this area and interested in the people that were in this area that had done so much scientific work. So anyway, we were hired to come, and my first job was actually representing Battelle at--I think it was called ERDA at that time—in Washington, DC. So my first six months on the job, roughly, were actually in DC. We moved all of our equipment and cars and stuff out here, and then went to Washington, DC to live for—actually it turned out to be—shoot. I want to say—many months, and then came out here to take the actual job out here. I told my wife, I said, now, I’m not sure what you’re going to think about it. Said, you’re not going to see many trees. And she got out here and she says, I never want to leave. So, one of those people that this was her ideal site. Been very happy ever since then, and she sort of built up—every time I’d go on a trip, she’d buy another horse. So ended up building a little house with a barn and horses, and each—I remember one in particular that was kind of interesting. I got on a plane—I did quite a bit of overseas work. Got on the plane and they gave me an envelope. And it says, To Daddy. I thought, it’s going to open up and it’s going to say, please come home, Daddy. Well, I open it up and it says, here’s the horse you’re going to see at the barn when you come back. So anyway that was the life of the person traveling. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Where did you buy this—where were you living? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well we were living in a place called Hills West at the time when we came in. This area’s really interesting because it has ups and downs in prices of houses. So we found that it was easier to build than to buy at that particular time. So we built a house in Hills West. Then we were living there, and I was doing quite a bit of overseas work. When we were here, we also then were trained by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission for reactor operator licensing exams. In fact, the Unit Two out here—I was the lead examiner for the first group of people that ran the Unit Two reactor here at Hanford. So that was kind of fun, too. So for a few years, I spent about half my time going around to different BWRs around the—boiling water reactors—around the country. But I still think my favorite one is the one that’s right here. Got to do a lot of different projects over time. The Canadian government wanted us to blow up some pipelines near Calgary to see if they were accidentally or purposely ruptured where the flow would go. So we went up, and my job was to measure the fluid velocity coming out of these ruptured pipes, which were probably three or four feet down, and they’d rupture and it’d just come up out of the ground. So that was kind of an interesting one. We had one where a fellow named Jim Grier who—great manager—did one with Shell Oil Company to look at taking the mud—the drilling mud from the seas and then putting it back down on the bed. So when you’re drilling for oil you get all these muds and things, and now you got to get rid of them. So we had a big project here to look at how you made them into briquettes and then put them back on the seafloor. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: This was all working for Battelle? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yeah, yeah. You had the opportunity to do a lot of different kind of unusual things. And one I mentioned that we started to look into was one of the commercial companies wanted to know how you could take strawberries and make them stand up so you could cut the tops off. So we did a little short project on looking at how you’d use the calyx as a drag device. The calyx, you know, the leafy part which is good for Scrabble. To look and see how you could control the position of the strawberry using a converging fluid system. Anyway, that was kind of interesting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Do you remember what year you came to the Tri-Cities? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: 1976, I believe. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Great. And you mentioned a couple of names—Chuck Eldritch, something, something like that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Elderkin. Chuck Elderkin. Chuck was really the person that hired me. I came out and interviewed with Chuck. He was one of the nicest people I’d ever met. In fact, I thought this is really strange. The people at Tri-Cities are very, very nice. But coming in and interviewing for a job, I didn’t expect this guy to take his family and me out for ice cream at night. So he was such a nice man. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: But he was a well-known climatologist? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yeah, yeah. Him and Chuck Simpson and there’s Bill Sandusky. I think Bill Sandusky just retired from the Atmospheric Sciences Department. And they ran the Atmospheric Science Department. There’s another fellow named Ron Drake that was there as well. But it was very prestigious organization there at Battelle. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: One of the things we’re interested in finding out is what was created, what was invented, what was discovered out there on the site? It sounds like climatology was cutting edge out there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Oh, I think so. I mean, you really had to have your game plan in place, in case something happened. We’ve all heard of cases where the down-winders were saying something happened and we were affected. So you’ve always had a very good Atmospheric Sciences Department out there. I was trying to think of some of the other names that were extremely interesting to me. Coming out of NASA, I had heard of this group and these people, so I was very excited about coming. And then, like I say, we went to Washington, DC and we had one child and two golden retrievers, and to live in DC for a little while. And if you ever have a thought it was tough to find a place with a child, think about two golden retrievers and who wants to let you stay in an apartment with two golden retrievers and a child. Anyway, we had quite a bit of fun. And then we had to drive all the way across the United States. My wife would fly between stops, and I would pull our boat and the dogs and catch up with my wife, Nell, and Christina our daughter, as we came across. So it was kind of an exciting time for us. I don’t think I’d have the energy to do it again. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: You said your wife really liked it when she got here. What was your first impression? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well, I was born in Idaho and lived in Utah, so this was very familiar kind of territory to me, and I loved it. In fact, one of the first things I did was get in my car, and I just drove out through the Area and up through by Othello and up by all those little lakes and the backwater, look for fishing areas, and go down and talk to the fishermen and stuff. So for me, this was an ideal location. And it turned out for my wife it was an ideal location. She could do all the things that she wanted to do with the animals. And I could do everything I wanted to do with the fish—and the steelhead and the salmon. Loved fly fishing for the steelhead up here. Probably one of the most significant events in that was that my father was out fishing—he loved to fly fish, too. And I told him, as you go down this river, I said, look over your shoulder, split those two big rocks right there, and when you do you’ll have a steelhead on. And he goes down there, and bang, this huge steelhead comes on. Just—he said he never had a fish fight like that in his life. He said, but one thing, Bill, I had to take him the extra step. So anyway, it’s been a wonderful area for us, and like I say, we’ve had a lot of people over. The work really became significant for us in 1989. US Customs Intelligence Service, Eleanor Lusher called Ed Fay at the Department of Energy and asked if someone would write a couple of articles, one on hafnium and one on zirconium. Ed asked if I would do it. So I wrote these two training bits for Customs, sent it to them. Next thing I know, I got a big beautiful plaque from the Customs Intelligence Unit head at New York. And then Bill Wiley liked that so well, he gave me one, too. So that got us sort of started. And then in ’94, US Customs and I began training. Congress approved a budget to do Weapons of Mass Destruction training for the non-weapon states of the former Soviet Union: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, and Slovakia. So that sort of started us off. And the first thing we did, we did border assessments to find out what they could do at a border and what they couldn’t do. And we found one location that if they had—if the smuggler went across the border down a ways, they couldn’t chase him because they had no gas. So some of the places were pretty rough. But then we went back in the countries and we did the training based upon our assessment at the borders. Then things just sort of took off from there. We began training more and more and more countries, going overseas. One of the problems that we had was when we went overseas—I actually carried a suitcase that was filled with strategic metals, if you will, to show and do training on. But it was very, very heavy. And we couldn’t carry any radioactive material with us at all. And we couldn’t—they didn’t have any trucks or things to pull something through, and there were very few radiation detectors. So we decided that we had to find a place where we could have trucks, cars, set up exercises just like you would have at a real field position, and be able to use real radioactive material, and specifically weapons-grade uranium and weapons-grade plutonium. Because these are two items that, without them, you don’t build a nuclear weapon. At the same time, back then, most smugglers and customs officers around the world were afraid of them, thinking that they’re highly radioactive. When in fact, through your training you find out that the weapons-grade materials are the least radioactive materials that you’re going to be working around for most of the time. The industrial isotopes are the rough ones, so to speak. So we got the Pentagon, Harlan Strauss, we got the Department of Energy, of course, with us. We got the State Department, Pat O’Brien, Non-Proliferation Disarmament Fund. We selected the HAMMER site as the site where we could do all of these things. So there were actually four groups of people putting out customs—trying to think. Customs—there were actually a couple different people that we worked with. But we put these four agencies together, combined them together, and came out and set up the training. We looked around, where could we do the training? Well, it just turns out that the HAMMER site was just being developed, and it was the ideal place. We drove through the HAMMER site, Customs, State and the Pentagon and I, and we saw a little building out there that is actually a rest stop. But it looks exactly like a border crossing in a third world country. We said, this is it. This is the place we got to do. So we then teamed up with HAMMER, and from that time forward it was all a wonderful partnership. In fact, people coming in could not tell the difference between if you were a PNL person or a HAMMER person. I remember one time, Nikolai Kurchenko, a Russian, the head of the Russian delegation came in and he had this beautiful Russian hat. And I thought, oh boy, oh oy, I wonder if he’s going to give it to me. Well he didn’t. He gave it to HAMMER. And I thought, oh man. But anyway, that’s been a wonderful relationship to where PNL and HAMMER worked together and you wouldn’t—couldn’t tell one from another. So that—in September of 1997, HAMMER did the dedication of the HAMMER site. At that dedication, we had Hungarians and Slovak Customs all in full uniform, for the dedication. That was the first class we had. And the classes have sort of continued ever since. So it was sort of a remarkable marriage, I would say, of the two groups. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: What does HAMMER stand for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Hazardous Material Management and Emergency Response Training Center. It’s actually the Volpentest HAMMER Federal Training Center. That’s the nice thing about HAMMER, is you can do things there that you really can’t do anywhere else in the world. And that is, we’re able to bring out the weapons-grade plutonium from PNNL, weapons-grade uranium, put it in trucks and cars and pass the through the portable monitors and have the people respond, pull them into what we call secondary and do the searches. But it’s with the real thing. And like I said, the first few years, some of the people were very much afraid of going up against those materials, thinking that they’re highly radioactive when in fact they’re not. But even the Russians—the [INAUDIBLE] wouldn’t let the Russians use their materials to train on. So we had—I think the Russians were here four times for the actual training at HAMMER. And then we actually ran a rail test, where we had a railroad train go by the 300 Area here. It carried the special nuclear materials. And when I say special nuclear materials, I mean the weapons-grade plutonium and uranium-enriched and the isotope 235, and uranium-233. So those things that are fissionable that you can make the weapon out of. Anyway, it was kind of interesting because the train test, the Russians wanted us to evaluate one of their portal monitors. These are large monitors for looking for radioactive material. I think it’s the only time that test has ever been run. In the end, we’ve had over 60 countries out there, at HAMMER. As you know, we took a little tour the other day and saw all the different facilities that have been built, and the State Department has built three really nice facilities for the training. The very first training that we did at HAMMER, we actually had phone lines to each participant coming out of the ceiling. Of course, now, in the new buildings and stuff, you got good simultaneous interpretation, the headgear, and you can do it in the field as well if you want to. Normally, in the field we do consecutive translation. But it’s a wonderful facility. As we’ve gone around the world, we’ve seen how people smuggle things and we’ve built traps that look like how the smuggler does it and then we train the people on how to find it. Kind of exciting. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: What had been your jobs, your involvement in each stage of this? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: My involvement? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Was I was the manager of the program. We called it Interdict RADACAD. Interdict for the interdiction of materials, commodities and components associated with the development or deployment of a Weapon of Mass Destruction. And then RADACAD for Radiation Academy. Well, you can imagine what happened on that—people immediately picked up RADACAD and that’s what it became known as. And one I forgot to mention, Terry Conway was the main customs officer we dealt with. He came out, and he was the one that thought up the term RADACAD. So that term actually belongs to him. But I’ve gotten calls from people in Washington National Security Council and people say, what does this RADACAD mean? What does it stand for? So we made it to very high parts of government and actually got to be a line item there for training. Andrew Church at State Department in the—I want to say in the training area there—Andrew’s specific area—he’s the one that actually sent most of the countries, or a lot of the countries to us. Department of Energy has sent a lot of countries to us. The Pentagon, with Harlan, sent quite a few to us. But they always came in as a joint effort, if you will. Andrew Church, Export Control Cooperation, ECC, and the State Department, is probably the first group that actually provided funding out and spread it—it would go through Customs to go to us. And he’s—Andrew’s still there. He’s still a good sponsor, living sponsor, if you will. Oh! Now that we’re talking about it, can I bring this out? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Yeah, please. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: This is kind of a cute little storyboard. Of course, you probably can’t see too much of it. But this actually shows one of the classes from Azerbaijan that came to visit us. My wife probably has had 40 separate nations at her home where she would spend three days preparing food so they have a banquet at the house. Some of the nations have been there to the house more than once. So this is the Azeris here giving my wife a souvenir. She got so many souvenirs that she had to build a case there at the house to put all the various souvenirs in. Ali here was a boxer for the Azeri Olympic team. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: And then he went into radiation safety? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Customs, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Went into customs. Yeah, it’s interesting, the people that come and take the training, when they go back home, and then we go back and visit them in maybe six months or so, they will have moved up in the organization. Getting a certificate from RADACAD was a very, very big thing for most of these countries. It actually meant almost an instant advancement. This is when the missile came in that you saw the other day, the SCUD missile which is on loan to us from the State Department. Some of the exercises that they’re doing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Could you tell us a bit more about the SCUD missiles for the cameras? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Got a call one day from a friend there at the Non-proliferation Disarmament Fund, said, Bill, do you want to have a missile out there to look at? And I said, sure! And then all of the sudden, one day it shows up out there, and the driver said it was the strangest thing he’d ever picked up. He said he went over to—I guess by the State Department where they had it, and he said I wonder who’s going to be driving that. So he drove it out here and brought it out to HAMMER for training. And—oh shoot, one of the pictures I think I brought with me—I know I’ve got it over there some place—is Bill Gates. Bill Gates came through and toured the Hanford site, and the last stop was there with the missile. So I’ve got a picture there with Bill Gates and I, looking over that missile. Kind of a fun toy. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Do you know how the State Department got the missile? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: It was provided by the Soviet Union. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: And the fear was that that would be—somebody would try to drive that out of the Soviet Union? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Oh, now that one is one that’s been cut up, as you could tell. It’s been set up as a demilitarized system, so it cannot ever be used. In the United States, however, there was one that did come into the United States legally, supposedly, and demilitarized. And my understanding was that another one came in that Customs took and they had the paperwork from the first one and it was drivable and everything else. So you’d think how could something like that every go through a country? But they can. So I’m not sure where that missile is right now, but Customs took it over and if they did all the paperwork right and demilitarized it, the person probably got it back. Let’s see. I thought maybe one of these we were holding—oh. Harlan Strauss. Oh, missile components. Anyway, this is sort of a fun one. And then Customs gave us this plaque here from the Northwest Laboratory for the Interdict Training Program, 2004. Now the nice thing about this is we continuously got letters from customs officers saying it’s the best training they’d ever had in their career. So when people walked out of the training, they actually felt comfortable. And you’d always ask them, well, what’s going to happen if someone comes across and your radiation alarm says you’ve got plutonium. They say, I’m going to stick right there and handle it. Years ago, they’d say, I’m going to take off running as fast as I can. So just that little bit of knowledge is very helpful. We have had people, of course, that just don’t like any radiation. Some people contend that a little bit of radiation has made the human species actually better, if you will. And that if you have a small amount of background radiation, it’s more healthy for you than none. It’s called hormesis, so it actually—your body upregulates itself to take care of itself a little bit better. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: How is HAMMER run? What is sort of the organizational structure of it? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well, HAMMER actually is a training facility that’s headed by Karen McGinnis, who does a wonderful job of making sure that the site needs are met. It’s actually set up for the Hanford cleanup to give all the specialized trainings so that the person in the field is safe. That’s pretty much it. It has, I think, about 50,000 man days of training a year. Every person on the Hanford site there that deals with radioactive materials is actually trained right there on the HAMMER site in the radiation building, the one that we took a tour of the other day. Volpentest certainly was a forward-thinker, in knowing that you needed to have something like this for the Hanford site, and knowing that it’s going to be a major cleanup facility. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Do you know much about Volpentest’s role in getting all of this organized? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Volpentest was the key person with the willpower and the tenacity to—my understanding is that he thought the project up, he fought in Washington, and he fought in Washington, and he fought in Washington. And I wish I could remember his words one time when—at HAMMER—not a dedication, but like ten-year anniversary. He said something about, they said what was so hard? He said, just again, and again, and again, you just had to be persistent to do it. And then finally, he got it and it’s, like I say, it’s the best training center in the world. You can do things out there at HAMMER that you can do nowhere else. We have brought in containers, we have fiber optic scopes to look behind walls, you can bring the special nuclear materials out there, and you can drive through the scenarios. And we mock-up. We mock-up our international seizures. In fact, one that we were accredited with in May of ’99 was a Bulgarian seizure where a fellow had gone out of Romania and up into Turkey and was coming back through Bulgaria, Josef Hanifi. He got to the border there and the Bulgarians had just been out training at RADACAD. They noticed that he seemed a little bit nervous. So they questioned a little bit and finally they sent him over to secondary. So they moved him to secondary. The car was perfectly clean. Nobody should be driving that car; it was way too clean. They found—a screwdriver was the only piece of equipment in the entire car. They were about ready to let him go, and apparently then he offered them a bribe. They said, no, no, we got to find it. So they started looking and they found a little piece of paper with a star on it, which was a Kurdish separatist group. So they said, okay, now we’re going to look a bit more. And the next thing they found then was what we call a passport. This is a piece of paper that gives the isotopic items that are in an element. It always goes with the material. When you get something that’s very sensitive, whether it’s radioactive or not, you’re going to have this spike assay, or what we call a passport, with it. And if you find it, the other stuff is there. So here it was and it said uranium-235, and said 99.99% uranium-235—which we train everybody, if you see that, you know that’s at least a partial. You do not enrich uranium to that amount. But now they knew what they were looking for. All their sensors—none of their sensors would work. I mean, the handheld radiation devices weren’t going off. Then finally the guy remembered the screwdriver, and he picked up a tire pump. The tire pump was like one he had but it was heavier. So he looked at matched them up and pulled it apart. And sure enough the compression cylinder inside the pump had been pulled apart and a lead pig—when I say lead pig—a lead isotope holder—radiation holder—they pulled it out and it had uranium-235 in it when they pulled it apart. It’s a great example to show that uranium-235 is easily concealed. Because you put it in there. One of the pagers that I brought with me that are used all around the world for detecting radiation was laid actually up against it and it still showed zero. Trying to reach around, see if I can open this up. This is the one we saw the other day. This particular one is my favorite. We’ve distributed thousands around the world. There’s actually several makers of these. This particular one is Sensor Technology. But you just turn it on, and then you wear it. As soon as it turns green it’s ready to pick up any radiation you’ve got. Very, very sensitive, and yet—this water bottle is just about the size—about like that was the lead pig that was in the container. So put it on the outside and if you press the button there—[DEVICE BEEPING] Reads zero. You’ve always got a little bit of gamma background radiation, but it read zero. And then of course as you pulled it open, pulled the top off and expose the little amount of radiation, then the thing goes wild. So that was one of the seizures that we were accredited with. And in fact, the customs officers that made that seizure were brought to the United States and brought out to HAMMER again to give a little talk to everybody on how they did it. So it was kind of interesting. We had a couple of other seizures, too, that were quite interesting. The Bulgarians, when they first were over here the first time they actually made another seizure. So they were extremely dedicated. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Had there been any particular—I don’t know—international politics or sort of big events that have shaped what people are looking for at HAMMER, or HAMMER’s mission? I’m thinking like—as the world’s sort of security concerns change, has that changed what HAMMER is looking for? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well, HAMMER, of course was really set up to handle the cleanup of the Hanford site. But the society area, if you will, has been a blessing for the world of bringing people in for training. Just going back in history, in December 14th, 1994, Josef Wagner, who is well up into the nuclear world in the Czech Republic, was actually caught by a man named Kamil Klozerski, the second command of the criminal police in the Czech Republic. And he was carrying with him 2.72 kilograms of 87.7% enriched uranium, which is almost weapons grade. That sort of set the tone for the world, I think. Because that had been brought down from Moscow by train, by car, and gone through a lot of different country border crossings, and it sort of showed the world that there really wasn’t any way of catching or stopping it at that time. So after that, you began seeing the portable monitors, began seeing the radiation detectors and things of that nature start cropping up. In my mind, there was sort of a changing segue way, I guess, for the world. Now the United States, I guess, lacked behind a lot of the other countries in putting up portal monitors and stuff because we sort of consider ourselves isolated. But as recent events have shown us, of course, we’re not. So the United States then took up and protected all of its borders with these large portal monitors. And if you walk off on the plane and you look very carefully, your customs officers will be carrying something like this. Normally, it’s just called a personal radiation detector. This particular model is called a pager from Sensor Technology. So the United States is doing a real good job with its people and getting its people trained for detecting radioactive materials. There’s been several seizures around the world. I guess maybe I’ll leave it at that. There’s been less than what we call a significant quantity, bag quite a bit that has actually been seized. We know that a lot of nations and a lot of groups who’d like to have the material. So as we talked about the other day, if the IAEA says that if a country has eight kilograms of plutonium, you could not discard the fact that they may have a full-up weapon, or 25 kilograms of uranium-235, or eight kilograms of uranium-233. So that’s sort of the baseline, so for nuclear smuggling, we always compare that. There’s been 18 seizures since 1992 of weapons-usable material. And when we say weapons-usable, we mean greater than 20% enriched uranium-235 or plutonium. So there’s not been a lot. And there’s a lot of equipment out there to try to stop it. But as we saw with the Bulgarian seizure, certain things can be fairly well-masked. A lot of times, people will ask, well, hey, a small number of grams you found, like in the Bulgarian seizure, you’re not going to make a bomb out of that. And the answer is yeah, that’s correct. Normally what happens on a smuggling operation, they’ll give you a very small amount of material, and if it’s good material, they’ll give it to you to take and analyze. And then they’ll say, we’ve got three more kilograms or five more kilograms back there. So when you see the small ones, they become very important, because that’s what people are trying to push and say, this is a sample. We had a case out here where zirconium—which is non-radioactive, but is used in reactor systems—smuggler sent us a small piece that we analyzed, and it was really, really nice zirconium. A customs officer was embedded with him and he was saying he was from Iraq and he wanted to buy it for Iraq. So it went on, and they’d give us another piece, and it wasn’t quite as good, but it was still good nuclear-grade zirconium. So eventually, customs arrested him, and he had five tons of zirconium there waiting to go to Iraq. It was stored in the World Trade Centers. I went back and looked at it. It was kind of interesting. Oh, I had one other—I got another picture over there some place where I showed two—that Eleanor Lush, who we talked about that actually the program started with, her and another person using a piece of our equipment to look at roofing tar from Venezuela. It was suspected that something was hidden in the roofing tar. Why are you buying roofing tar from Venezuela, which probably the cost of shipping it is as much as the material’s worth? So here at PNNL, Dick Papas and Jim Skorpik had built some equipment—some acoustic equipment—to look and find chemicals that—actually it was originally developed for looking at chemical weapons. And in this particular case, it was for looking through this tar keg to see if somebody had accidentally hidden a rubber ball in the middle or something. But anyway, we worked on several cases. [DEVICE BEEPING] With customs. And it was always kind of fun. I was called in on one case where I was able to go and testify, was the first to testify for the US government against some smugglers. So it was kind of interesting, back in Brooklyn. Anyway we had sort of a fun life. The HAMMER site, like I say, sort of came as a godsend for doing this. They were built up to handle and move materials around in a method—and they’re on the Hanford site, so you can actually use the radioactive materials. And of course we used not only the weapons-grade which we talked about several times, but we also used the commercial items, because those are ones you’re going to find most often. That is the cesiums, cobalts, things of that nature. We have those in the training as well, and the people have to identify what they are. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: You mentioned testifying—was that because--just as an expert witness? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Or were you actually involved in--? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: No, no, just as an expert witness. Yeah, no, no just as an expert witness on what we had analyzed. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: How has your sort of day-to-day work changed over the time that you’ve been working at HAMMER? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Oh, not—I’m just pretty much retired and I get to do the fun things I want to do, and I get to do kind of an outreach and talk to the people that we’ve with over the years, the various agencies: the State Department, the Customs and Border Protection, and the Department of the Defense and Homeland Security. I really don’t do much anymore. If a class comes in, I’ll maybe give a talk on nuclear smuggling and maybe a couple of other little talks. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: When did you retire, or start to retire? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Pardon? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: When did you start to retire? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: 2011. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Okay. What was your sort of day-to-day before that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well, when we had the classes, of course it was—phew—early morning to late afternoon, but it was a labor of love, setting them up and getting all the people. When the training went on, I one time, somebody asked, well how many experts do you use? And I counted up, I think on one class, 27 that you would run into. 27 different experts you’d run into in that class. We had people from Oak Ridge, for instance, Steve Baker would come down and that’s where the uranium enrichment was, and so he would talk about uranium enrichment. We had the MSIC people come in—Missile Space Intelligence Command—come in and they’d talk about some of the missile systems that we had. So I guess I really wouldn’t call it work; it was kind of fun. And then HAMMER is even more fun. I go out there and it’s sort of like a large family that you blend into. My wife keeps saying now, when are you going to really retire? I think that day is coming pretty soon. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: You mentioned going around looking for fishing spots when you first got here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yes! </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Is that a big hobby of yours? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yes, I love to fish. To me, this was a very interesting and exciting area because I went up there in the desert area where these—all of the sudden, there’s water and there’s fish in these lakes. I watched the people catch them and how they did it. I’d go down and talk to them. So then we’d begin doing that, and got with friends, and we’d walk into a little lake called Virgin Lake, which is about a mile walk-in, so there’s not a lot of people. Haven’t been there lately, though. But, yeah, I love fishing, and my dad took my brother and I out. I think—I think he said we were either three or four when we first started going out and going fishing. I remember him buying these old bamboo fly rods, which would be very expensive now. And I remember walking and holding the tip down, snapping the tip off on the ground. My dad said, no, no, Bill, you have to hold it up. So that was in Idaho, when we lived in Idaho. I guess I’ve been sort of lucky: I’ve always found something that was fun to do. Even when I went down to NASA, I remember they came out looking, like I say, for seven of us from around the United States to work on a particular project. It was kind of a thrill to be able to go down and sort of play and have all the toys you ever wanted as a young engineer. It just seemed like my life said, well, here’s the next thing, here’s the next thing. So I guess the next thing probably is we’ll maybe settle down even more. Maybe one day do a full retirement. Although I still like talking about nuclear smuggling and talking with the people. When I was in the Czech Republic, and actually it was December of ’95, and we were talking with the criminal police there. So I spewed out all we’d heard, about Josef Wagner and any co-conspirators and stuff. And they said, oh, well, we thought we were going to tell you about that. No. But it was interesting because they were really into it. And when the breakup of the Soviet Union occurred, I said, what have you noticed? He said, well, people think they’re free. But he says, people think they’re free to do whatever they want, so we’ve seen an increase in murders and really hard crime. Which I never thought about, because under the dominant rule, nobody dared do anything. Then after they broke up and were free, they could do all these different things. So the criminal police actually had their hands more full, I guess. The Josef Wagner case was just a very special case. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: How have the Tri-Cities changed in the time you’ve lived here? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Oh! More people in my fishing spots! Yeah, the Tri-Cities have gotten many more people. In fact, we live up on Keene Road, which is part of Richland, going toward Yakima there. The traffic has gotten almost unbearable at rush hour. I mean, it really is amazing. When we built our house, 1990, Keene Road was a little two-lane road that did this. As you drove along the road, and if you come up over this rise, you’d see our house. But the house would look like it was a stick figure, just looked like—because you would look through one octagonal window, straight through to another octagonal window. So it looked like there was no depth to the house. It was a very strange feeling. And then the next thing you know—whoom—then they came and bladed out the road, made it a four-laner, and the first thing happened was they cut it a little too steep at the end of our driveway, so our driveway went like that. And I had to call them up because it snowed and I said, I just slid into the road. So they came back and fixed it. City of Richland has been very good. But we’ve certainly enjoyed it, like I say, we’ve had a pretty good life here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Have you followed local politics at all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: A little bit, but not too much. I mean, the national politics have been something interesting to watch, kind of fun to watch. I always watch the news and hear the people say—it’s a very fun thing to be watching and going over. Anyway, I don’t get involved in politics very much. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Okay. Let’s see. I guess that’s most of our sort of preset questions here. Anything else that comes to mind that I haven’t thought to ask? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Hmm. I’m just trying to think of some of the fun little projects that we’ve done in the past and the people who we’ve worked with. Seems like we’ve always had some—well, it was kind of interesting, because I used to do quite a bit of research. When I was at NASA, we built these large laser systems for what they call a coaxial laser system—for actually looking at wind for probably 20 kilometers out or so. Very, very accurate. And when I came here, one of the first things I did was I went back and I got with our old NASA people and set up a program to scan San Gorgonio Pass with an airplane flying over and taking the wind velocity measurements, so you could see. And now there’s large wind turbines down there—wind turbine farm and stuff. And that’s what we wanted to assess, was how deep did that maritime layer go as it came down from the coast. So that was sort of fun, as it led to the stuff we did at NASA with the laser Doppler systems. But we did it out here at PNNL. And then I got to work with a fellow named Jim Davidson. He was over our national security back then, and probably one of my very favorite bosses, if you will. So with him, I got to be—my training—the Nuclear Regulatory Commission training—and with Jim, I actually became one of the US advisors for the International Atomic Energy List, which is now the Nuclear Suppliers Group. So all those things you wanted to keep away from Russia and China, there was a thing called CoCom, which was NATO plus Japan, minus Iceland. And we’d meet in a secret place in France and in England and go over all these lists. So one of the jobs that I had with Jim was to work on that International Atomic Energy List, to be sure that we’d try to keep special things away from Russia, so that they couldn’t reprocess materials, or they couldn’t do this, or they didn’t have that, per se. So that was actually kind of fun. And I think that I probably enjoyed Jim as much as anybody that I’ve ever done—he’s retired now. I think I mentioned, he’d be an interesting one to talk to because he gave perhaps the best tour I’ve ever had of going out through the Area and dealing with the old reactors. Anyway, he got us involved in a lot of very interesting, interesting things. Oh, one—do we have time to bring over a picture? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Yeah, sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Maybe we can take it. This is just a short picture of some of the things that go on at the HAMMER site in training. These are many of the people who are involved in the training. This particular picture, I think was interesting because we’re holding an eight-kilogram ball of Tungsten, which has the same density as plutonium. As a result, you can see how small that is. So if you’re smuggling, if I’m smuggling drugs, I’m going to have a large area. But for smuggling nuclear materials—the special nuclear materials, you don’t need a lot of space. Where with drugs, you’re going to smuggle it and you’re going to have it where you’re going to have take it open, put it back in, take it open, put it back in. With weapons of mass destruction, you may only make one carry. So it may be completely sealed up. Maybe welded. But the size of the materials that you’re going to be dealing with don’t have to be a lot. Not going too much detail, this is over in Holland, when we were in Holland. You see the big Dutch shoe, there. I don’t know if you can see that or not. Oh, this is nice. This is where we—one of the buildings that was turned over to HAMMER from the State Department. Karen Nicola. Oh, shoot. Jim Spracklen. Jim Spracklen was at DoE for a long time and he really was a blessing for HAMMER. He just has been so supportive of everything at HAMMER. Of course there’s the missile again. Paul Van Son was the State Department person. I believe that this one was where they handed over the State Department building that we took a tour in the other day. So, yeah, at the signing of the turnover here, this is Karen McGinnis, who’s the head of HAMMER, the director of HAMMER, who’s very, very supportive of all these activities. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Do you know how she became director of HAMMER? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: No, I don’t. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: We’ll have to see if we can get her in and ask her. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yeah. I’m not sure if I want to show that one too much. This is a picture down in Mexico where we’re putting on a little bit of training for the Mexican National Police. They loaned me their gun. So I look like I know what I’m doing. Anyway, that was some Weapons of Mass Destruction training that we did. This is the interesting picture, to me. This is Eleanor Lusher. This is the lady at Customs Intel in New York that actually started us getting involved in the training aspects of it. And that’s the roofing tar from Venezuela that we went up to inspect. This is an ultrasound system that was put together by Dick Papas and Jim Skorpik at PNNL to evaluate if there was things that were accidentally being left inside of the roofing tar. Roofing tar is an ideal thing, because you can’t go through with an x-ray or anything. So if there’s something inside of it, you can hide it very well and it can get through. Except if you’re using an ultrasound system. Ultrasound goes right on through it. So it’s really kind of interesting. But anyway that’s one of the few pictures we have of Eleanor. And Eleanor, I believe, retired this year—in fact, at the first of the year. But she was central in bringing us a lot of cases. Remember the case we talked about in New York and stuff? That’s where we got it from. Now, I should point out—that’s one of the interesting things that we’ve done over the years. We’ve worked for a lot of different sponsors. We began working with Eleanor here at Customs back then. Of the thousands of customs people that we’ve dealt with, they’ve all been the nicest people you could ever imagine. So, one after the other after the other, very, very nice people to work with. So I guess I take my hat off to Customs and training their people to deal with people on an everyday basis. This is a picture by the missile that’s out there. That’s Bill Gates. He came in. He’s actually kind of excited about seeing the missile. He was actually excited about old Von Braun stories that I told. Anyway, kind of cute. Did you get that picture? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Camera woman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Good. During the training, we use a lot of different types of material—training material. This particular one here is actually put out by the Department of Energy, Dr. Noel Medding. If you want to know everything about radiation in a single sheet while you’re eating, this was an ideal training aide. We always tell people at your Thanksgiving you can put this down in front of you and say, well, when Aunt Martha takes her mammogram, she’s going to be receiving so much radiation. And if the conversation dies down, you’ve got something to talk from. This particular one is a radiation playing deck. We always say it’s a field training manual for radiation. It has four chapters, thirteen pages in each chapter, for a total of 52. So each one of them actually gives you a different item on radiation. You didn’t get one the other day. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Camera woman: What’s that? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: That’s for you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Camera woman: Oh. Thank you. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: We also built some other cards which don’t have very many left on, but rather than having hearts, diamonds, clubs and spades as your suits, you had missile, chemical, biological and nuclear. So you had your four Weapons of Mass Destruction as your primary suits. In fact—see if I can open this one up. So each one of these, you’ll deal with the different technologies associated with them: missiles, or chemicals or biologicals. Like this one here says Nuclear Terrorism. If terrorists have it, they will use it. Oops. Well. One of the things we do train on—this is going to be hard to see—the Man Portable Air Defense Systems. Man PADs. We heard about those an awful lot. Two things when we say weapons of mass destruction, we also normally cover Man PADs and we cover radiological dispersal devices—in other words, just casting radioactive material around. Can cause quite a bit of economic damage. Well, maybe I left it in the bag. Oh, for crying out loud. I could have searched that all day long. Okay, here you go. Here’s my two favorite cards. Of course, we have the card with the picture of the SCUD missile coming in. And then we have a card—this is Pat O’Brien, State Department, the one that’s helped with all the buildings. And he and I are over there in Poland, and this is one of the SCUD missile engines that they left in Poland. Most of the SCUDs were destroyed in these countries. State Department let them keep a couple of engines and a couple of missiles, you know, for the museums. That’s kind of embarrassing, huh? This one—special nuclear material signatures. It says gamma and neutron—tells you what plutonium has, and what uranium has. Plutonium has gamma and neutron you’re going to detect, and uranium is going to have the gamma you’re going to detect. But if you play it left-handed, like a left-hand person would, then what you’re going to see is going to be the little nuclear weapon. If you play it like a right-hand person would be, you’d see spades. Okay, these are very special, so be sure and don’t lose them. The cards turned out to be probably one of the best training aids that we had. Because people—you give them this big book, or you give them this disc, people end up not looking at them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Mm-hmm. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Then the Field Exercise building, which you were in the other day. This actually came as kind of a surprise to me. We’d worked on getting the State Department to support that for a long time. And the State Department always wanted to support it—the Non-Proliferation and Disarmament Fund. But we finally got them to build the building. Then they were going to dedicate the building, and they said Bill, you got to come, you got to come, Bill. And the reason they wanted me to come was because they put my name in there saying—dedicating the building to me. So now I have to make a big deal out of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: That’s great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Anyway. You get it all? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Camera Woman: Yup, got it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: This is a nice one, because here’s Sam Volpentest. Sam, who as we mentioned, was the thinker behind the HAMMER site. And so there he is, and there I am, showing some of the different sensing units that we have. Remember we talked about the Bulgarian seizure and the people that made that seizure noted around the world? Anyway, there they are. There’s two of the three guys. The other guy had retired. But they came out and gave us a talk. Here’s Jim Spracklen and I. Like I say, Jim is one of them that’s been behind this program forever and now runs the RADACAD program. Really, really a good guy. This is the Dutch. This is Pat O’Brien, and he’s the one that built the Port of Entry Building that we saw the other day, NDF. And he’s the one that sent—oh, just say he’s one that’s provided a lot of the support tools. If we look at it, Customs provided people for training. The Pentagon provided some funding and selected the nations. The State Department provided all kinds of training materials, so all of those—most of those Conex boxes, the big Conex boxes you saw out there, and a lot of the equipment out there were originally purchased by the State Department for our group program. Then this one here is just one of the storyboards. Let’s see what else we got here. Paul Van Son. Of course the famous picture of the missile coming in. The missile was kind of a cute story. I came in, and somewhere or other the local news found out about it. So they had the missile and we were trying to put it into a little building out there. I never even thought about this, but—it was Tri-City Herald, and they had the people there. Next thing I know is they’re cornering me and turning me around to talk to me. Next thing I knew, I turned around and one of the ladies jumped up on the missile and was riding the missile. So it was kind of cute. But they didn’t know if they would be let to do that or not. So this is kind of nice, because you’ve got a nice picture of Sam Volpentest in there. Earlier, we had one of Karen McGinnis, the director of HAMMER. Patty Murray. The HAMMER site’s had all the political people out there, it seems like, for a long time. They stop in. Very supportive. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Well we can hopefully maybe get a scan of these at some point. If you could maybe bring back in another time, we could get our intern team to scan copies of these. Then we could have a version of them. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Yes. You certainly can. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Well, let me just say, this is one of my favorite ones. This is an Army program for the 120 millimeter Abrams M1 Tank Cannon. And this was a special—very special projectile that we built at PNNL and fired, actually, down at Socorro, New Mexico. But this is what we call a streak camera picture. Normally, when you take a picture you open the shutter and you open it and you get a shot. In this particular case, you got a shutter that’s open and you strip the film across. So depending on how fast you strip the film across, you get a different picture coming out. But the projectile there is going at like a mile a second. So you got to do something pretty fast. So anyway that’s one of my favorite pictures. And this is the only time that this—you can sort of see that the projectile is still exhausting out of here, sort of like a rocket exhaust. And this is the first time that this had ever been accomplished. In 1989. So VAGAS stood for Very high burn rate per pellet And Gas Assisted System. So it was sort of an acronym. You can tell it’s not spelled like the normal Vegas. But I love this picture and in fact I had to run around looking—I had to take this out of my house to bring it in. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: Great. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: I told my wife, she said it was okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> O’Reagan: All right, well, thanks so much for being here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX118553515"> Cliff: Hey, thanks for inviting me. You guys didn’t think you’d get bored to death like this, probably. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:10:41 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 248 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area Boiling Water Reactor Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1976-2016 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1976-2011 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Elderkin, Chuck Simpson, Chuck Sandusky, Bill Grier, Jim Drake, Ron Lusher, Eleanor Fay, Ed Wiley, Bill Strauss, Harlan Brien, Pat O' Conway, Terry Church, Andrew Gates, Bill McGinnis, Karen Volpentest, Sam Papas, Dick Skorpik, Jim Baker, Steve Nicola, Karen Spracklen, Jim Van Son, Pau Medding, Noel O’Brien, Pat Murray, Patty Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Cliff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-07-25: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 5/5/2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 300 Area Boiling Water Reactor Department of Energy Fishing HAMMER Site Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) NASA Nuclear Regulatory Commission Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Richland (Wash.) Volpentest, Sam, 1904-2005 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F503facfeffb1114bbcb124d98f0bd650.jpg 66083871458fac8b8095454b1f11ba2f https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7ee348740ff5bd1e247f32a02bcc137a.mp4 47755ac0406ca2312d3b6d8e09e2ccb4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William McCollough Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Northwest Public Television | McCollough_William </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Robert Bauman: So let's start by just having you say your name, and spell it for us. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> William McCullough: Okay, I'm William McCullough. W-i-l-l-i-a-m M-c-C-u-l-l-o-u-g-h. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Thank you. Today's date is October 22nd of 2013 and we're conducting this interview on a campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we could, by having you tell us how you came to Hanford, what brought you here, how you heard about the place, that sort of thing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, back in 1950, my brother Dee--he was working here at Hanford—he came up here in 1944. And in fact he was in a reactor at the time that they started B Reactor up. Anyway, he came down to Salt Lake, which is where I was living, just before Christmas time. I was working for Utah Willow Mills at the time, as a shipping clerk. My wife was pregnant, and it became pretty obvious that a shipping clerk and a wife with a baby just is not going to make it. We don't have enough money. So I knew I had to change jobs. He came up and said, well, if you'd like to, I could probably get you on at Hanford, if you want to come up there. I said okay, let's check into that. Well, I sent in an application, and all of a sudden, all the neighbors started getting visits from the FBI, to check my background. And they finally decided, okay, I guess he’s safe enough. And so, I came up here in August 27, 1951 and started work here. Before I came up here though, I--Whoops, there it goes. Of course, I was born in Salt Lake. And we just had wonderful parents. I hated to leave them, but I thought, oh, I’ve just got to improve myself. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And so— </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Man one: No worries. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, okay. What sort of work did you start with, when you arrived in 1951? What sort of job did you have? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: [LAUGHTER] Well, we left Salt Lake. I was working, like I said, at Utah Willow Mills. And I worked half the day, went home, and my dad and my wife's grandfather, they loaded up this big U-Haul trailer. In fact, I haven't seen one as big, it was a Croft trailer. It was built out over the wheels, on the trailer. And they kept putting that stuff on, and putting stuff on, and putting stuff on. And finally, I said Dad, you know, it's not going to all go on there. And he said, there's no top on the trailer, why can't you? And it was very top heavy. Find out I was going to have trouble, because the first time I tried to stop at a stoplight, I couldn't. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, drove up there, left on a Saturday night. We stopped at Jerome, Idaho, and then continued on driving, and we got into town at about 2:30 in the morning. Really worn out, crying baby. At the time we had this little girl that was just five months old. And pulled in my brother's yard, he had lived in an R house, which is a very nice house, with a full basement. He told us, you could live here until you get housing. So he pulled me there, and we went out to the employment office. It was 8 o'clock in the morning, and we checked in, and it took about an hour, and they said, well, we're going to send you out to the 300 Area to work. But we’re not going to do it today; you can go home and take the rest of the day off, report there tomorrow. Oh boy, just what I needed. And sure enough, we went and got introduced to the 300 Area, the next day, on Tuesday. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: What were your first impressions of Richland, and the area, when you first arrived? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, that first day? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Or, in those early days when you first came here. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, I realized it's quite a small town, but I was quite impressed with it. In fact, we've always enjoyed it, living here. It is, it's smaller, but enjoyable. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: So you said you started work at the 300 Area, what sort of work were you doing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, the 300 Area--I don't know if you're familiar with this, but their main job was to make the fuel elements. The uranium came in billets, and they put them in an extrusion press and put them out into rods, 20 feet long. And then they'd send it over to the 313 Building, where they'd machine it to the diameter, and then they would can it. And the uranium really oxidizes fast. So as soon as they machine it, they've got to use it. And of course, they gave it a nitric acid bath, before they can it. And then they sent it over to the canning and dipping line, or what we liked to call it, the dip’n’dunking line, to can it. If you went over to—well, your canning line consisted of four molded, molten metal pots. Each pot had a different metal in it, all molten, very hot. And we essentially canned metal. And to do this, we had to have full coveralls on, we had gloves that went from here, all the way up to here. We had a hood to protect us. And spats on our feet, to protect our shoes from the splattering metal. And the canning line was extremely uncomfortable, [LAUGHTER] and it was not unusual to get a splash, as I said, that metal is running at 550 degrees, so it's pretty hot. And it was kind of an uncomfortable place to work, but the pay was good. We worked two weeks of day shift, and one week of swing shift, which was a nice shift. But we actually had this—they would take your metal, and put it in the first pot, and agitate it. And it would come out this pot, and put into a centrifuge, and throw off all the excess metal. And then they put it into a second pot. I could tell you what it was, but it might be classified, I don’t want to get in trouble. They put it into this next molten metal pot. And again, work it in there a bit, leave it for so many minutes, take that out and put in a centrifuge. There was a clock on the wall, which was going very slowly, and it'd tell you exactly which cycle it was supposed to go into. You'd say okay, pot one, and then you came over and it'd say centrifuge, and you'd put in the centrifuge. And you go on to the next one, pot two, centrifuge, and you go down to—well, you wait for the pot three. And there you washed them a little bit, to make sure you get all, everything off it. And then they pick them up and take them over to the next pot, which is molten metal also, and you'd actually slip them into the cans, under the molten metal, to can them. And you put a little cap on it, and then take it out and move it over to the quench tank, to cool it down. And after they got through there, you'd take it down to a fluoroscope, take the newly canned metal, uranium. And they could see the end of your metal, and so they'd say, okay, we need to cut this can back to here, so far. So they’d cut it to size, to the length they wanted, and then they sent it to the next station, and welded the cap onto it. And then they had to take it out to the next station, another fluoride, to make sure that it was cut right, they made sure it's to specs. And then they'd take it to the next station and they had what they called a frost machine, and they'd run it through induction coil and they'd spray this frost on it and it went through and tried to bake it on. And if it's any air pockets or anything in the can, it would show up and they'd have to discard it and start over again. If it didn't show as it having any air pockets in it, they'd put it into a pallet. The pallet held 300 slugs, pieces of metal, and ship it out to the 100 Areas. And so as a result, as an operator you worked the canning line and also each of the other stations. You rotated so to kind of share the canning line with everybody. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: You mentioned that the metal could sort of splash and get on the protective clothing? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Yes. As I say, we had these leather gloves and this asbestos covering all the way up to the shoulders to protect our arms. And we also had a full face shield over us and a hood. But you still got splatter occasionally and there's something about that molten metal and all the clothes you have on that no matter how many times you take a shower you had this odor about you. It just kind of bakes in. And so my wife could always tell when I was working the canning line. And it was dangerous. We took our break one time--we got a 10-minute break in the morning and 10-minute break in the afternoon and of course a lunch break—but while we was on a break they brought in what they called a coverage crew. Because these furnaces, they're going to keep generating the same amount of heat. So they had to try and maintain the temperature of the pots so that when we as operators came back in, that the pots would be ready to go again. So they'd stir them. They had a big paddle, they'd stir them. Well, this particular paddle had a flaw in it, and this coverage guy, he would take these paddles and put them all in the quench tank to cool it down and then he'd go and stir it. Well, that paddle had a flaw in it and got just a dab of water in it, and when he put that down into it, it blew up. The ceiling was about 20 feet high, and it splattered that ceiling. It just emptied that pot out. You wouldn't think a few drops of water would do it. And then it came down on top of him. Very severe burns. We all worked out there for 150 years, and it's the only time I've ever saw that somebody got hurt. Safety was always stressed so hard out there. They didn't want accidents. But that's the only time that I ever saw it, and it's scary. And they made sure enough that you do not put these paddles in water. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And about what time frame would it have been when that accident occurred? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: That would have been 1951, or '52, because I went out to 100 Areas in 1954, so it would have been in the time frame of '51—it would have been that three-year time frame. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: You said that operator was severely burned. Did he recover? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Oh yeah. I think he may have come back on disability, though. Because he was very severely burned. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: So you worked as an operator there for about three years? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: From 1951 to 1954. In 1954, I went out—up until 1954, your seniority was all one. To work in the reactors, you had to start 300 Area, and it's all on seniority. And when you got enough seniority in 300 Area, usually you would go to the 100 Areas. Well just in 1953 or what have you they said, we're going to one chance one chance only. If you want to go to the 100 Areas you go right now. If you don't take it now, you'll be a whole new seniority group. You'll start at the bottom again. So my wife and I, we got to thinking about it, didn't want round-the-clock work, but I knew I didn't want to work the Canyon Line all my life either. So at that point I went out there in January 1954, I went out to the 100 Areas to work. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And so your job in the 100 Areas was as an operator? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: As an operator. Your operators out there they had a pile operator that then they decided pile operator doesn't sound right, we’ll call them reactor operators. We had the reactor operator and then had the utility operator, which is essentially an operator that doesn't have the seniority or the knowledge to advance to become a reactor operator. So I went out there as a utility operator, and they have what they called a roving crew, which is they rotate from all the different reactors. Any time the reactor is shut down, they would go ahead and assist them and give the reactor crew some help. Because there was also a lot of overtime because of it. So I was put on this supplemental crew as a utility operator, and I worked out there for about a year, and they shift me into the C reactor. At that time the C reactor was the newest reactor, and they put me in there as the utility operator to work. And so I worked there as a utility operator. What it meant was I couldn't sit at the control board, and I worked outside the control room pretty well. Didn't work in the control room hardly at all, only on an as-needed basis. Worked with a fellow by the name of Ted Lewis. Can I put names? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Sure. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: I worked for him. He was a supervisor and the control room specialist was Cliff Brenner. Both were very strict, and if this is what the book says, this is what you are going to do. Well, I worked there at C reactor for a bit, and they were starting to get hurting for pile operators or reactor operators, and my boss Ted Lewis came out and said, Bill, you are not qualified, but I'm going to qualify you if they promise that they will not shift you out and take you away from me until you get trained. And so on that stipulation, after a year out there as a utility operator, I was made a pile operator. And at that time I could sit at the control room and take my turn at the control board with Cliff Brenner looking over my shoulder, and Ted Lewis looking over his shoulder came out pretty good. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Can you explain maybe a little more detail what the sort of task that sitting at the control board would mean? What sorts of tasks were you're doing? You're sitting at the control board. What are you looking for? What sort of things are you keeping your eye on? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: The old reactors they had nine control rods to control the reactor. C reactor, they put in 15 total, and when you sat at the control board you had these selsuns which shows the position of the rods and you had the instrument down here showing essentially where the temperatures of different tubes to give you an overall picture of what the temperature of the reactor is. And so you just sit there and then you had a galvanometer up here showing a change of power level. And then up here you had a big dial which showed you the actual power level. The power level indicator up here is very slow. It's calculated by taking the inlet temperature water and the outlet temperature water, and doing a bunch of calculating through the factors and it comes out as this is your power level. But this is very slow. It takes about three minutes to catch the actual changes and catch up. So you watch this galvanometer to get your fill in for if the power level changes at all, and then you go ahead and pull the rods in or out as needed to hold the power level. And you have the temperatures monitoring showing you where the heat might be shifting to. And so you try to maintain a good, even distribution of the power. Of course the chief operator or the specialist is telling you what you need to do, and sometimes you have to move or swap rods because the temperature is changing quite rapidly. The thing about that called Xenon poisoning, which it's—pours out portions of the reactor, so we have to find out all the time. So the heat is a continual movement all the time, and so we had to know it. And so that's what we were doing at the control board. We had two operators inside the control room, and each operator would sit for two hours at the control board, and the other operator would be walking around the control room, taking readings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then you'd swap. The interesting thing about it, I don't know, when you work graveyard—I don’t know if you’ve—you can get extremely sleepy along about 6 o'clock in the morning. The fact is you feel like you'd like to lay down and die. And so then you do things to stimulate your mind and keep you alert. Well, one morning I was sitting there at the control board and I thought, oh boy, I'm tired. And then they didn't allow coffee pots in the control room, so if somebody was going to go out, they'd get some coffee and they brought it back in from the lunch room. And I got my mind going. I thought, gee, you have a coffee pot and it percs. How long would that tube have to be before it wouldn't perc anymore? And we had a good time talking about it, laughing about it, and it kept me awake. And so then about 7:30, here comes in your day shift. And of course they had an engineer assigned to the area. He came in to check how everything was going. I said, "Hey, I've got a question for you. How long could that tube be and still perc?" And we kind of laughed and talked a bit. Well then I didn't see him again. We changed shift and went on change and it probably wasn't until I came back in a month, and by that time he was gone. Well, here he comes back with a three-page document based on you've got to know the quality of the coffee. What brand is the coffee? What is the pH of the water? And like an engineer. But we all looked at him. And we still got a big laugh. I still have that write-up at home that he gave me. But anyway it's things like that we went through. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And how long did you work as an operator? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: I worked at C reactor for--can I look at notes? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, sure, yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: So I was at C reactor from January 1955 to December 1960, so about five years. Then I went on a supplemental crew, and then I went back to C reactor for a while. But then in 1960, they offered me a promotion to be a reactor specialist at the 100 B reactor—that was the initial one. So I went to B reactor and worked as a reactor specialist. That means I had the full responsibility of the control room. Your operating crew consists of a supervisor--by that time what they used to call the chief operator they were now chief reactor specialist. They have your supervisor and reactor specialist, which are both monthly paid supervisory jobs. And then they had five operators, which consists of the operating crew. I forget where I was going now. [LAUGHTER] </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Yeah, well, you’re talking about being a reactor specialist at B reactor, and your responsibility there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: So I just stayed in that position at B reactor from 1960 to 1964. And in 1964 they started shutting reactors down, or before the time. And I watched them go down and go down and I thought, you know, I better get out of here, because I'm going to lose my job. By that time I had six children. I thought, no, I can't afford to be laid off. So I know well I'm going to drop back into the bargaining unit and pick up my seniority so they have a lot more people to lay off before you get to me. And so I stayed back there as an operator for a year or so. And everything quieted down, I thought maybe I'll just go ahead and they offered me, they said, hey Bill, would you like to come back to the reactor specialist again? I said, oh, I'd love to. About a month after that, they announced they were going to shut down the D reactor, and I thought, well, I guess I'll get laid off here. So I started looking for another job. There was something else I was going to say and I got sidetracked. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Let me ask you about when you moved to B reactor from C reactor, you became a reactor specialist which meant, as you said, more supervision and responsibility, was there a significant difference between the two reactors themselves? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: A big difference. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Could you explain? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: B reactor had nine control rods; C reactor had 15, which meant that we had that much better control. The old reactors, there's a big gap between the top bank of rods and the top of the reactor, the active zone, and also the bottom row. As a result, by that time, they had developed these spines and we could put in temporary poison spines and pull them back out again to supplement the control rods. B reactor you had to do a lot more front face work, because that Xenon poisoning built up here and this area will die off and you shift down here and know this rate cycle, and a lot of times you had a lot of front face work to be doing. C reactor you had this other bank of rods, which made a big difference. So the C reactor's a lot easier reactor to operate. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Were there ever any, during your years working at either of those reactors, any things happen, any emergencies or critical issues in the reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Was there what now? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Were there ever any emergencies or critical issues at any time at either reactor? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Not really. We had lots of problems in that during the charge/discharge quite often the hot fuel elements were dropped down amongst--instead of dropping in the basin they'd fall in the back pig tails and get so you couldn't go in the rear face at all. Then you had to figure out how to get them out amongst the tubes. You had to bring in fire hoses and everything else, and yet you couldn't stick your head around. You had to do it all by mirrors to get them out. But in general, not major problems. I might point out, I guess it's when I was at C reactor, they decided they was going to build a nuclear ship, NS Savannah. And so they brought the captain, or there was two of them came in, to the C reactor. Now not too many people know this, because it's dropped off in history, but they came in and trained and learned how to use nuclear material at the C reactor and after they left, they sent a ship. They presented a nice big model of the NS Savannah, which C reactor kept in a control room as a memorial to the fact that we did do this work towards turning atoms into plowshares. That was something we were always real proud of. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: So you talked about shifts starting to take place, the beginning of the shutting down of reactors and less production at some point. How did that impact your work? Did you shift to other kinds of jobs there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Do you mean out there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Yeah. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Not in the reactor, of course. If the reactor goes down, that takes everything down. So if you wanted to--Yeah, so if the reactor goes down, it's just your jobs are lost. Let me see if there's anything else. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Did you work at N reactor for a little while? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Actually what happened is that, following my progression, I finally decided I had to leave. I started looking for jobs, and I heard that they were going to build a brand-new reactor, the FFTF, the Fast Flux Test Facility. So I thought maybe I can get on that. So I put an application down there and I got in contact that said they wanted an interview. So I went on and interviewed with Pat Cavil. He says, we are going to monitor the engineering and help them to you build this new reactor. And so I took that job. I didn't know anything about engineering—about planning and scheduling, but they said, we'll train you. So I went down there with three other men, and he gave us an extensive class on planning and scheduling. And we'd go on and contact the engineer and say, okay, what job is it that you need to do? And what needs to be done before you can do that? Which actually made a critical path. And then we'd monitor their progress to see how—if it’s going to show up in time, to help them out. So we did all the planning and scheduling for the engineers and the planners. And it’s enjoyable work. Didn't have much in the way of computers them days. If we had to get information, we'd use a mainframe. They had a great big, big, big computer in the Federal Building, and we'd use that and take it down there and they'd put all the information into the computer and it draws a great big chart and we looked at it and showed people where they're at and what's going to have to be done in what order. It's fun. I did that for several years down there. There again, like everything else, things didn't look too good. [LAUGHTER] It's funny on the FFTF they said we ought to make that into a power producer. That way you can go ahead and do your experimental stuff and get some electricity out of it. And the engineers and no. No, no. This is our toy. You're not going to dictate to us when we shut down and when you're going to operate it. We want to do it without any outside influence. And here when they shut the thing down--the FFTF down finally, if they would have just listened and hooked that up to produce electricity, it would still be going. That was a 400-megawatt plant. And it would still be going now if they didn't have the idea that we're not going to be dictated by a bunch of power producers. We're going to run it the way we want to. Well, they did. They shut it down. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: I wonder, taking you back to the 300 Area, B Reactor and C Reactor, what was the most challenging part of your work at Hanford? And maybe what was the most rewarding part of the work you did at Hanford? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: The most rewarding and challenging is when I was made a reactor specialist. It was real rewarding to go in there and find out you have a bunch of heat up here and cold down here and figure just do this, this and this and maybe I can get it all on your control recorders that are right next to your operator. We would select tubes representative of the area. So we would select a tube up here, a tube over here, a tube here, a tube here and on down to monitor. And then we'd try and bring the temperatures closer together so that the reactor is more balanced. Of course the more balanced you get then you're further away from the limit, so then you raise your power level. So that was a real challenge to go in there and see what a mess the previous shift had left you and then go in there because the heat is always--the heat, which is also in reactivity, is always shifting in the reactor. So it was fun to go in and see just how flat you can get it. I thoroughly enjoyed the job. It was is nice. It was a good job, a very rewarding job. That's probably the most rewarding job I had. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: You mentioned earlier that the incident happened when you were working at 300 Area of the worker who was—the pile exploded. Were there ever any other incidents--and it doesn't have to be a safety incident--but things that sort of stand out your mind that in your memory is really unique things that happened during your time working at Hanford? Any special events or happenings that really stand out in your mind from your time working there? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: No, off hand I can't think of anything. Could I have a drink of water? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, yeah. There's water right there. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Let me look at my notes here and see if I’m missing. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Oh, okay. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Okay, one thing about the reactor specialist is that I had essentially control of the reactor, but I didn't have any manpower problems. The supervisor, he had personnel problems and everything else, but as a reactor specialist, if the people were bellyaching, I'd say, go see the boss. [LAUGHTER] It was very good. Also, backtracking, the bus system out there was phenomenal. If you lived in Richland, the bus system, the buses—you wouldn't never walk more than a block and you'd be picked up to go to work. And you'd get on the bus and do your thing. What was interesting, some people, they would play cards. They would get the four seats and put their leg through the seat so they're all facing, and they'd play bridge or play pinochle. For many years before I got there they were playing poker. In fact, reading I find out that a lot of people they did such a good job on poker, they'd just ride the buses back and forth. [LAUGHTER] But the buses were just absolutely fantastic, and people were reading, sleeping, what have you, but good bus system. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: And that's how everyone got to work, pretty much, is that correct? The buses? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Yes. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: How would you describe the community of Richland, during the 1950s especially? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Oh, by the way, just one back to the reactors. To give you a feel for the advancements we made in the reactors in operating. I can't talk pell-mell with a guess, but the design rating of B Reactor--by the time I got out of there, it hasn't quite doubled the design of it. Well, by the time I go out there until I left, they, by a factor of eight to ten power level. They just cranked that pile up just because of a better knowledge, better fuel. And it's amazing that you do take a Model T and you go ahead and you can drive down the highway at 10 or 15 miles an hour and say, boy, look how fast I'm going. And all of a sudden you're, going 150 miles an hour, that's about what they out there with the reactors is take these old Model T's and kept improving them, and improving them, getting the water to flow into them. And it just is amazing how much power we got out of there. In fact, we got it at such a high power level they said, okay, let's cut back to try and preserve the reactors so they could operate longer. So we actually took a mandatory cutback. We really did a good, good, good job or reducing plutonium. Of course, by the time I was out of there, I got thinking sooner or later they're going to say, hey, we have enough plutonium—we have enough plutonium to destroy the entire world. Someday they're going to start shutting the reactors down, and sure enough they did. That's kind of it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Overall, how would you assess your years working at Hanford? How was it as place to work? </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: I found it a fantastic place. In fact, working at Hanford, working in that community, you figure that—We ended up having six children. My wife never had to work out of the home. I made enough money out there--there was a lot of overtime--but we had both agreed that we would not use overtime to live off of. It would be stuff that we wouldn't normally buy like a boat, or a trailer, a camper, a new truck. Hanford itself has been good to me. And the area is fantastic. You couldn't ask for anything better than that. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Well, I thank you very much for coming today and sharing your experiences working at Hanford. I appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Well, I sure appreciate being able to get in here and talk with you. Because it's exciting, too. I'd like people to know what went on out there and how safety was a primary concern out there. Everything we did it had to take your safety always, always came first. It has been good place. As I said, I raised six children, and they love this place so good that they all live locally, except one. Her husband thought maybe he had job advancement, so he moved to Tennessee about three or four years ago. Up until that time we have the whole family living here. Pretty nice. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> Bauman: Yeah. All right, well, thank you again, appreciate it. </div> <div class="OutlineElement Ltr SCX40238283"> McCullough: Thank you. </div> Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri-Cities Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:48:18 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 254kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 300 Area 313 Buidling 100 Area B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor N Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1951-2013 Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1951-1960 Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Lewis, Ted Brenner, Cliff Cavil, Pat Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William McCullough Description An account of the resource An interview with William McCullough conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/22/2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-14: Metadata v1 created – [J.G.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. Subject The topic of the resource Richland (Wash.) Hanford (Wash.) Hanford Site (Wash.) Nuclear weapons plants--Environmental aspects--Washington (State)--Richland. 100 Area 300 Area 313 Building B Reactor C Reactor D Reactor Fast Flux Test Facility (Wash.) N Reactor Richland (Wash.) https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F15c0c1471a0b29d2fd8063e13b1816b3.jpg b0d99ba52ee6be7de7282e29ce7b86d7 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F027104bf25ad44bc778e4964058b35c1.mp4 3512d866ed13b9fbe343f9f8692d0364 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Pennell Description An account of the resource An interview with William Pennell conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F7d0cc48e35c1699bf3e2ceb5504081e6.jpg 267ef4f8ad23eb01b28ca54bbcf5fb3a https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8bdd191b516948b8551df906cb3e95b8.mp4 63d203336c6e92d208527e36058af974 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Parker Foundation Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Nuclear science; Richland, Wa.; Hanford, Wa.; Parker, Herbert, 1910-1984 Description An account of the resource "The Herbert M. Parker Foundation collects valuable personal perspectives from key individuals who worked in radiological and environmental protection at the Hanford site in the early years of its development. Since 2004, student interns have recorded interviews from health physics and related science professionals. These historically valuable interviews document their personal experiences, observations, contributions and ideas. Several of the distinguished professionals who have spoken at the Annual Herbert M. Parker Lecture are also included. The videotaped interviews and accompanying biographical sketches will be made accessible to the public." See https://tricities.wsu.edu/parkerfoundation/ParkerHistory Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Tyler Description An account of the resource An interview with William Tyler conducted by the Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Herbert M. Parker Foundation at Washington State University Tri-Cities https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F90d54a5a9837fe9b43e6690103af02d6.JPG 9169c15b4493b42c01ad4b597f76b831 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F8d3e66c137874c342df2cbfdcec381f5.mp4 e48c0d6128bcde0bbba8a20ce7f31cef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Post-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area during and following the Second World War Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Bauman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed William Tyler Location The location of the interview Washington State University Tri-Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Northwest Public Television | Tyler_William Robert Bauman: Now you can give it right back to her? William Tyler: Yeah, I plan on it. Man One: Exactly. All right, get this off your face there. Bauman: Does your daughter live here in Richland? Tyler: She lives right across the street from me. Bauman: Oh, does she? Oh, there you go. Well, you can really give it to her then. [LAUGHTER] She can't avoid you. Tyler: Well in fact, we work together at HAMMER. Man one: I’m rolling. Bauman: All right. Well I think we're ready to get started. So let's start by having you say your name and also spell it for us. Tyler: My name is William T. Tyler. W-I-L-L-I-A-M, T, T-Y-L-E-R. Bauman: And you go by Bill? Tyler: Bill, yeah. Bauman: All right. And today's date is August 28th of 2013. And we're conducting this interview on the campus of Washington State University, Tri-Cities. So let's start, if we can, by maybe having you talk about what brought you to the area. When did you come to work at Hanford, and what brought you here? Tyler: We came out here on vacation from Oklahoma in 1947 to see my dad's brothers and sisters. And we were going to stay for a week or so. And my dad applied for a job here and got it, and we stayed. I thought it was the end of the world. This was not a pretty place in 1947. But I went in the Navy in 1950, got into the nuclear program and came out here in 1955. Went to work at Hanford. Worked as an HPT until '82, I believe. And then I went into management in health physics. Bauman: So HPT, you mean health physics technician. Is that was HPT is? Tyler: Uh-huh. Sorry. Bauman: That's okay. So how old were in 1947 when you came on vacation? Tyler: I think I was 15. Bauman: Okay. What sort of job did your father get? Tyler: He worked in transportation. Bauman: And you already had aunts and uncles who came here? Tyler: Yeah. Bauman: So you said you thought this was the end of the world. What do you mean by that? What are your first impressions of the place? Tyler: [LAUGHTER] Well, my first impression is we got here July the 5th. And my aunt and uncle had a little cafe on downtown Kennewick, on Kennewick Avenue. And it was about 104 degrees out. And we were driving down the street looking for it. And my dad says, man, I wouldn't live here if it's the last place in the world. And back then there was not a lot of trees. There was in Kennewick, and a few in Richland. But every time the wind blew, it was dusty and the tumbleweeds flew, and a lot of dust storms. In fact, they call them termination winds. Because everything was booming out in Hanford and every time the wind blew, people didn't like that and they'd just pick up and quit. So they called it termination winds. Bauman: Do you know when your aunt and uncles came here? Tyler: My aunt was born here in Kennewick. My uncle came out here in '37, '38, somewhere along that area. Bauman: Oh, okay, so you'd had relatives here before the Hanford site. Tyler: Oh yeah. Bauman: And so when your family first came in 1947 and you dad got the job and stayed here, where did you live? Tyler: We lived in Kennewick for a year. And then we got a house in Richland in 1948 at 635 Basswood. Bauman: That was a government home then? Tyler: Uh-huh. It was ranch house. And we moved in Thanksgiving Day of '48. And my future wife moved in next door the same day. I didn't know that was my future wife, but it turned out to be. And I still live on Basswood. Different house, but-- Bauman: So did you go to high school here then? Tyler: I went to Kennewick. I started in Kennewick because that's where we lived and I didn't want to transfer. So I rode the intercity bus every day to Kennewick and back. I graduated in 1950 and then somebody in Washington wanted me to join their services. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So how would you describe, outside of your first impression, how would you describe the community of Richland in late '40s, early 1950s? Tyler: It actually—it was a very good place to live. I didn't realize it at the time. It was smaller, much smaller--probably 5,000 people in each of the cities. It was a good place to live if you could ignore the wind blowing and the dust storms and that sort of thing. But it kind of grows on you. I know I wouldn't live anywhere else. Bauman: In those early years when you were here in the '40s and '50s, do you remember any particular community events that stand out in your mind? Tyler: Yeah, Atomic Frontier Days, the Grape Festival in Kennewick, and then the fair. Nothing big or spectacular, but it was something to do. Bauman: Can you describe Atomic Frontier Days a little bit? What sorts of things-- Tyler: Well, normally they had a queen and a parade of course. And it was just kind of a—I don't know how--just a parade and kind of a get together type thing for the people that lived here. Bauman: So let's talk about your work a little bit now. You said you started working in '55. Tyler: ’55. Bauman: So can you talk about who you worked for at time and a little bit more detail about what sorts of work you did? What area of the Hanford site you worked in? Tyler: Okay, I started February the 22nd, 1955. And my first work assignment was 200 West Area tank farms. And then I went up to the REDOX facility which was a separations facility. A couple months later, then I went to U Plant. And then I went to T Plant, which were all separation facilities. And then I went over to PUREX in December of 1955. That was prior to startup. We started up our first spiked run was I think March or April of '56. And I worked there until '62 I believe. When I worked there, we also was switched with the 100 Area HPTs, or RCTs, or radiation monitors for exposure reasons. Because they got a lot more exposure than we did, so we would switch with them. And I got to work in all the 100 Area reactors except N when they were running, and some of the 300 Area. Bauman: So just about everywhere? Tyler: Yeah, I worked basically in every facility out here except 234-5. Bauman: And so was GE the contractor? What contractor did you work for? Tyler: GE. They were the prime contractor. And they left here in '66 I believe. Then Rockwell and Westinghouse and Fluor Daniel and MSA. Bauman: So as a health physics technician, what exactly did that mean? What sorts of things did you do on a daily basis? Tyler: Well as you know, there was a lot of contamination, radiation. And our job was to set the dose rates if people were going into a radiation area. We would go in, set the dose rates, stay with them. Got to make sure that the dose rates didn't increase while they were in there. We surveyed them out when they were done with the GMs and alpha detectors to make sure they didn't take any contamination home with them. And that was our prime responsibility. We maintain control of personnel exposure rates and their contamination, if they had any, and made sure that everything was as clean as we could get it. That's the short and sweet version. Bauman: Yeah. And you did that, obviously, at all these different areas you worked at on the site? Tyler: Everywhere, inside, outside, burial grounds. Bauman: Were there ever any incidents while you were doing this where people did have excessive exposure or anything along those lines? Tyler: Yeah, there was a lot of them. When GE came here--well, they were the prime contractor. Back in those days, you really couldn't talk about your job. You could say that you worked at Hanford and that was pretty much it. But yes, there was a lot of good memories and bad memories. Some really high exposure rates almost on a daily basis, because everything was running. And what will go wrong probably does. And it was very interesting work. It was something different every day. It's the kind of job that you look forward to doing and working. I did. I really enjoyed it. Bauman: So what was the process or procedure if someone had an overexposure? Tyler: Well, you had your dosimetry, which—Battelle read that. So you know what they got. And that's the record that's with you forever. At that time I think we worked--[PHONE RINGING] Shit. We worked under a 50 millirem per day limits, or 300 a week. And sometimes you would exceed that. But we were issued dosimetry everyday when we came to work. And you had a film badge which was read I think once a month. But they kept a running record of your exposure. That's why when we, when 100 Area radiation monitor--[PHONE RINGING] Hello. Can I call you back, Ian? Okay, thanks. Sorry. I don't know how to turn it off. Bauman: So we're talking about the dosimeter-- Tyler: Yeah, they kept records of all your exposures. And then every month they would send you a copy or let you know what it was. But if before the end of the year was out, if you were running short of exposure, then they would transfer people--particularly the radiation monitors--to different areas. And they what they were doing was using our exposure instead of--and letting their people cool down a little bit. It was just a way of equalizing the dose rates to the personnel. And it worked good in theory. And there was some--and I probably shouldn't say this—but there was some little minor ripples in the water, because people accused the other people of hanging back and now I got to come save you, that sort of thing. But it was all in fun. Everybody knew how serious the job was. And that was just part of their job. Bauman: And so how long did you work as a health physics technician then? Tyler: I think until 1982 and I went into management in health physics. At that time, they called us managers. And I was the manager of East tank farms until 1988. And then I transferred over to the West Area environmental group and took that over. My responsibilities were all of the outside radiation contamination areas. Burial sites. '89 I retired. Came back three months later and went to work in the environmental restoration part-time. And I did that until 1995. And then when Bechtel came in, I left there and went back to health physics side and become a evaluator at HAMMER for radiation protection, which I still do. Bauman: So you still work for-- Tyler: Two to three days a week. Bauman: So you mentioned earlier the sort of secrecy of some aspects of Hanford. Obviously secrecy, security were a very important part of. I wonder if you could discuss that at all, any ways that impacted your work? Tyler: GE had a very rigid plan of how they wanted things to go. And security of course was top secret. If you went—and a few people did--they go down and have a beer at the bar and they get to talking. And you never know who you're talking to you. And there was cases where people didn't have a job the next morning. Because security would overhear them. And you were pretty much done. So people didn't talk about their job. They didn't even talk about it with their family. Security was very strict. When you—well, for instance, when you go to work in the morning or if you're on shifts, same thing. You would catch the bus at the bus lot. Get on the bus, go through the barricade at the Y. If I was going to PUREX, we'd go up, pull in to the front gate of PUREX. You'd get out, off the bus. Go through the badge house. Pick up your dosimetry. Go out. Get back on the bus. The bus would pull inside the gate. Get back on the bus. Go down to PUREX. Get off the bus. Go through their badge house. And they would check your lunch bucket and all that. And then go into the building. And then in the evening, just reverse that process and back out again. So they were very strict. If you drove your car, you could not drive it past the main gate of East Area. You parked outside. And when you could drive inside, security would check the glovebox and the trunk and whatever was in the car. So it was very regimented. Bauman: I wanted to ask you about, in 1963 President Kennedy visited for the opening of the N reactor. I wondered if you were there and have any memories of that event at all? Tyler: I was not there because I was on shift at that day, or I probably would have been. Bauman: Mm-hm. Obviously, one of things that happened with Hanford is the shift from focus on production to focus on clean up. And I wonder if that shift impacted your work in any way? Tyler: Yes. Like I said before, I was the manager of East tank farms. And my office was at Semi Works, which is in 200 East Area, which was a pilot plant for PUREX. Semi Works was running. We were doing strontium cesium runs. But then when the edict came out that we were going to phase out and clean up, one of the first facilities--well I think it was the first facility—that we started tearing down was Semi Works. And D&D did the work. But we shut it all down and demolished the building and just imploded it in place. Built a dirt berm over it, cleaned it up. Most of the cells and the tanks are still in place, but they're full of grout. And then there's concrete over it. And what we did was tear down—this was approximately a three-story building with three stories underground. So when we tore down the building—it had a lot of piping and columns—we tore down the building and left the west wall standing. And we filled everything we could get inside like the basement and concreted it in place. And then we undercut the west wall. And this is probably four foot thick. And got a couple of Caterpillars and chains and hooked it over the top of the west wall. Pulled it down over like a lid. And then dirt berm over it, and there it is. And the stack that was there—the exhaust, the big stack—they imploded that and laid her right alongside the building. One guy did that. We deconned it first, and he came in, and a dynamite expert told us where we was going to put the stack and put a stick out on the end in the ground like they do now on the TV. And laid that stack right down on that stick, all by himself. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So that definitely did make for significant changes then, the shift from production? Tyler: Very significant, because that was kind of pilot test for all the other anticipated deconning and decommissioning they we're going to do, which is still going on. Bauman: Let's shift now and talk a little bit about HAPO. I wonder--I know you've been involved with them quite often. I wonder if you can talk about your involvement when you became involved in HAPO and how that came about? Tyler: Well let's see. First, HAPO was a GE acronym which stands for Hanford Atomic Products Operations, which was the name of GE's part of this. GESA, which is another credit union down the street, was the General Electric Supervisors Association. GE was very particular about their managers or supervisors were a step above the blue collar worker. And I think they still maintain that. If you were a supervisor, it's white shirt and tie. And you don't fraternize with--So when the credit committee wanted to get started, that's the name they chose, just HAPO. And it's '53. And I was looking at one of the early--the record book. And I think there's five or six of the charter members of the first—that I worked with that were radiation monitors just like I was. But I never joined HAPO until my wife was--she likes C First. And I never joined HAPO until I think '71. And then a friend of mine that I worked with talked me into getting on the committee that approved loans, credit committee, which I did. And then I got invited later to go on the board of directors and got voted in and been there ever since. I really enjoyed it. It's a great credit union. Bauman: So is it the board of directors then, primarily is it either current or former Hanford employees? Tyler: No. It used to be when we were federal, you had to work out here to join HAPO. And then they relinquished or changed the bylaws so that anybody could join HAPO. If you give them $5 and signed up, you were a member for life. But initially it was you had to work here to join. Bauman: And you said you didn't join until '71. What led you to decide to join at that point? Tyler: The guy I carpool with, one of them, convinced me that I should do that. [LAUGHTER] And I didn't like C First. I never did like C First. But my wife liked them because you got at the end of the month, you got all of your checks back. And she liked that. But I joined HAPO and started my own checking account. And then she finally joined shortly after I did. And now the rest is history. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: So, I know you weren't part of the formation of the credit union. But I wonder if you can talk about it a little more? If you know more, were the employee unions at Hanford involved in the credit union, establishing that? Tyler: Yes. Bauman: And anything you can talk about that? Tyler: Helen Van Patten was one. GESA started it first. And then the blue collars said well, we got to have one of those. The first store was down by the Spudnut Shop. I think we had one or two employees. And everything was in a ledger, handwritten. Joe Blow borrowed $25. It was very basic. But fortunately, it kept growing and membership increased. Bauman: So the unions saw it as a way to provide credit union opportunities-- Tyler: Right. Bauman:--for blue collar workers or laborers or whatever? Okay. So I want to—going back to your work at Hanford, what are some of the more challenging aspects of your work, and maybe some more rewarding aspects of your work? Tyler: That’s a good question. Probably one of the most challenging was the responsibility when you're out on a hot job where the contamination levels are great and the radiation levels are great, and you have a whole crew of people. It challenges you to--it's always in the back of your mind that something's going to happen and I'm not going to see it, or I'm not going to catch it. And somebody's going to get overexposed. And that's always in the back of your mind. Because--and I have to beat my own drum here for a bit—radiation monitoring and health physics now, whatever they are, it's a very challenging job. You're responsible for--you're taking care of people. And they trust you. And they expect you to look out for them. And it's a lot of responsibility, but most everybody accepts that gladly, because they know how important it is. Because you're responsible for--you could get somebody really overexposed, and who knows what the consequences are? As far as rewards for that, I think is the satisfaction of when the job is done, that you knew you did your best job. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got overexposed. Nobody got contaminated. And the job got done. Bauman: Were there any events or incidents or anything, sort of unique things that happened during your time working at Hanford that sort of really stands out to you? Tyler: When I first hired in, like I said, I went to REDOX. One of the problems they had shortly before I got here was they had a ruthenium—they ran some ruthenium and they played it out in the stack. And then it broke loose. And it kind of went out in the desert and on the ground. And you had ruthenium chunks of—it looked like white paper that built up on the inside the stack and then finally broke loose and fluttered out and went everywhere. And one of my first jobs with a GM and a walking stick was walking out through the desert and finding these things. Little specks, big specks, didn't have any trouble finding them. [LAUGHTER] They were very hot. And I remember we used the KOA cans from T Plant, which were little round cans, metal cans about that big around, about this high with a snap-on lid. And that's what we put them in, with dirt for shielding. And then buried them. But there's been a lot of incidents of hot burials from PUREX. I remember some where we used a burial string. We used a locomotive, a whole bunch of flat cars. And then at that time, they'd build big wooden boxes. And I recall one big one that had enough lumber in it to build two B houses. Huge—it sat on two flat cars. And we put it in, and we took readings over the top of the tunnel as it went out of the tunnel towards the burial ground. And it read greater than 500 R. And as you know, 500 R for an hour is a lethal dose rate to 50% of the people, 60%. And then you go down the railroad track behind B Plant, pull it across the highway which patrol barricaded the road. So you pull the string across the road and then back it into the burial ground. And then you had to sink—this box was built on skids. And a big long steel cable lay on another flat car, three or four flat cars away from it. So you would pull that. And you would pull it down into a burial trench. And the Cat would be down there ready. And the train would back up and they would grab that cable, put the eye on. Hook it to the Cat. And then the Cat skinner would pull the cable off. And the train would move up until the boxes sit here and the cables here. And the Cat's down here pulling. And then we'd get up to the--and there was a dock where you could slide it off. And you would turn that box and pull it in. Pull it down into the trench, down to the other end, wherever you wanted it. Unhook the Cat. Leave it. Pull the Cat out. And then they would backfill that box. And that's the way they did the burials. And it worked great except when the box collapsed unexpectedly. Bauman: Then not so great. Tyler: Yeah, that's not a good--that happened once or twice. Bauman: During your years working out there, were you ever concerned about your own safety, health, protection, in any way? Tyler: Well as stupid as it may sound, no. I never was. Because I always figured I knew what I was doing. And I received some very good training in the Navy, which helped. But I never worried about it. I always trusted me. Bauman: Were you a member of a union when you were working at Hanford? And what union was that? And I guess, what sort of relationship did the union have with management here at Hanford during the time you were here? Tyler: Good and bad. [LAUGHTER] I used to be chief steward for the radiation monitors. I went through two negotiations. And after the last one, I decided I didn't want any more of that. Chief steward's a thankless job, but somebody's got to do it. Bauman: What does that mean exactly? What—chief steward-- Tyler: Well, you're the union rep plant wide for all of the HPTs. And I had this grandiose idea that I could just change everything. It's a great idea, but it doesn't work. It's a job that somebody has to do. And it's a job that is thankless. Because somebody's always mad at you. Whatever you do, in some of the people's eyes, you could always do better. And it's just not a good job. [LAUGHTER] But I enjoyed it. You learn a lot. And you learn both sides of the fence--how the company thinks and how the union thinks. And then you try and compromise. Bauman: Were there ever any times you were here where there was a strike or any sort of-- Tyler: Two--'66 and '76. Bauman: And were those sort of across the site? Tyler: Yep. And in '66, after we settled the '66 strike, GE left. Bauman: Was that one of the reasons they left? Tyler: Yeah, well, they had planned to leave. And then that's when--because when GE was here, they were the only contractor. And then when they left, they kind of broke it up into the 200 Areas and the 100 Areas. And it's always been different contractors, not just one prime contractor. Bauman: Do you remember what some of the key issues were in '66 and '76 in terms of-- Tyler: Wages. Wages were always the key issue. Well, I take that back. '66 or '76 was, they were going to do away with the buses. And that was a key issue for everybody. It didn't happen, but it was a--that was when they spent all the money redoing the bus lot. And then a couple years later, they did away with the buses anyway. But we did get air conditioned buses. Before we had old buses, the old green buses. Well like the ones sitting down at-- Bauman: The CREHST Museum? Tyler: Yeah. Those were some of the newer ones. The older ones were international buses that looked like a truck. Cold in the winter and hot in the summer. But they worked. When they did away with the buses, see, that did away with a lot of jobs in the bus lot. Maintenance, everything there, which was a lot of people. Bauman: So part of that was about jobs and issues of transportation? Tyler: Mm-hmm. Bauman: Anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about or that you think we should talk about? Tyler: Well, we've covered pretty much every--well, we've covered pretty much everything I think. I don't really know what you're looking for. Bauman: Just your experience. That's why I wonder if there's something that you experienced some event or something that I haven't asked you about yet that you think would be important to— Tyler: Well. When I retired, I took the first early out and then got bored to death and came back. When I was in the environmental group in West Area, a good friend of mine was an environmental manager outside the site. But he talked me into coming back part time and become a waste shipper and a waste handler. Which was--I'd never done it. I knew what it was. But I finally relented. I enjoyed it. It's entirely different. Because I was kind of burned out on radiation protection, and I wanted to do something different. Didn't want to retire, but I wanted to do something different. So I went to the classes and become a certified waste shipper and a waste handler. And we took care of all of the sites outside of 200 East, 200 West. All the burial sites, all the drilling sides, the river, pretty much everything. And it was very interesting. Until '95, when I decided I didn't like the contractor. [LAUGHTER] And I went back to health physics. Bauman: Most of the students I teach now were born after the Cold War ended. Obviously most of your career, the Cold War was going on during most of the time you were working at Hanford. So I'm wondering what you think would be important for young people today and people in future generations to know about working at Hanford during the Cold War? Tyler: I'm trying to remember. We had the strike in '66. And there was almost another strike four or five years later. In fact midnight was the deadline when we were supposed to go on strike. And at 11:30, we got a notification that the President had put a stop to the strike because of the situation with the Cold War thing. And I think that's the first and the last time that ever happened. But as far as-- Bauman: So then about 1970 or so? Tyler: Early, yeah, '71 or '72 maybe. No, it was before that, because I was still on shift. It was probably '68, '69 maybe. But as far as the Cold War, it's still going on in different forms—my personal opinion. You look back at history--and I've lived through a lot of it--nothing has really changed. Like what's going on now, and the Bible says there'll be war and rumors of war. And that's correct. Because whatever our President does—whatever he does is going to be wrong in a lot of people's eyes. It's kind of like if you don't do it, you should have. And if you do do it, you shouldn't have. [LAUGHTER] It's a different type of cold war. Instead of—we used to worry about Russia. And I'm not too sure that—maybe we should still be worrying about Russia and a lot of other countries that--Things have changed. But they haven't—the basic things that caused the Cold War hasn't changed. There's all kind of weapons. I don't know. Bauman: All right. I think that's all the questions I have for you. Tyler: Okay. Bauman: I want to thank you for coming in today. Tyler: Thank you for having me. Bauman: Pleasure to talk to you. Tyler: Good. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:47:27 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 244 kbps Hanford Sites Any sites on the Hanford site mentioned in the interview 100 Area 2-East Area 200 Area 200 East Area 300 Area B Plant K-West Area T Plant U Plant Years in Tri-Cities Area Date range for the interview subject's experience in and around the Hanford site 1947-today Years on Hanford Site Years on the Hanford Site, if any. 1955-still working Names Mentioned Any named mentioned (with any significance) from the local community. Helen Van Patten Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Tyler Description An account of the resource An interview with William Tyler conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by the Mission Support Alliance and the United States Department of Energy. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 08-28-2013 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-6-2: Metadata v1 created – [A.H.] Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to this US Department of Energy collection. 100 Area 1955 2-East Area 200 Area 200 East 200 East Area 200 West Area 300 Area B Plant Battelle Bechtel Cat Cold War General Electric HAMMER Hanford K-West Area Kennedy Kennewick PUREX T Plant U Plant War Westinghouse https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2F442defa11603ec797087a6eada962adb.png 4ca9334c4c80ca90e287a85b11855483 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/omeka-hhp%2Foriginal%2Fbc7ae1397d70a4dc5c19d5593d8ca3ec.mp4 fe179ab07e4b99d8246dfe52287afc42 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pre-1943 Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Description An account of the resource Oral histories with residents about the Hanford area prior to the Manhattan Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this collection should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for these items. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Franklin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brenda Kupfer, Roy Satoh, Linda Reiko Adkinson and Bruce Yamauchi Location The location of the interview Washington State University - Tri Cities Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Robert Franklin: My name is Robert Franklin. I am conducting an oral history interview with Bob Bauman and Brenda Kupfer, Roy Satoh, Linda Reiko Adkinson and Bruce Yamauchi on September 18, 2018. The interview is being conducted on the campus of Washington State University Tri-Cities. I will be talking with Brenda, Roy, Linda and Bruce about their family’s history in Pasco and the Tri-Cities. For the record, can you state and spell your full names for us, starting to my left with Brenda? Brenda [Bea] Kupfer: Brenda Joyce Kupfer. [LAUGHTER] B-R-E-N-D-A. J-O-Y-C-E. K-U-P-F-E-R. Franklin: Great. Roy Satoh: Roy Masashi Satoh. R-O-Y. M-A-S-A-S-H-I. S-A-T-O-H. Linda Adkinson: Linda Reiko Adkinson. L-I-N-D-A. R-E-I-K-O. A-D-K-I-N-S-O-N. Bruce Yamauchi: Charles Bruce Yamauchi. C-H-A-R-L-E-S. B-R-U-C-E. Y-A-M-A-U-C-H-I. Franklin: Great, thank you. Robert Bauman: All right, got the formalities out of the way now. Franklin: Yes. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: I wonder if we could start with having you talk about your grandparents, Harry and Cheka Yamauchi. What brought them to the United States, what brought them to Pasco, as much as their, sort of, history that you know about based on talking to them or stories from their parents, et cetera. And whoever wants to start that. Adkinson: Well, Grandpa and Grandma arrived from Hawai’i in 1906. I can’t remember the date, but I do remember what happened on that date in San Francisco, great earthquake. Bauman: That same date, wow. Adkinson: Uh-huh. And Grandma thought that the world was coming to an end, and she was fated to a great tragedy. Because all she could see what fire and smoke. So from there, they went to, I think it was Cashmere first, with the railroad. He got the job from the railroad—in Hawai’i, they have a dispatch sort of a center, a labor ready center. If your name came up to what they had pegged you for that you might do a good job, that’s how you were allowed to come. So they were there for a short time, and then moved to Pasco. Franklin: Do you know what island they emigrated from? Adkinson: What islands? Gosh. Well, I think the original Yamauchi family was from O’ahu? Kupfer: O’ahu? Maybe? Adkinson: I think. Although Hawai’i is considered agricultural, so I’m not sure. Yamauchi: That was agricultural back then. Adkinson: It was agricultural back then. Yeah, probably so. Yamauchi: Not a tourist trap. Bauman: So they had gone to Hawai’i for plantation labor? Adkinson: Yes, yes. Grandpa was the third son, I believe. And of course, as in Europe, if you’re not the first son, you’re sort of out of it. And you need to find your own way in life. Bauman: Were your grandparents married, did they leave Japan as a married couple, or did they meet in Hawai’i? Do you know how--? Adkinson: I think they got married in Japan, did they not? Satoh: I think. Yes. Adkinson: I think so. Bauman: Okay. Franklin: So it was the railroad that brought them to Pasco? Adkinson: Mm-hmm, yeah. Yup. Bauman: So when they first came to Pasco, your grandfather was working for the railroad? Adkinson: Yes. Bauman: How long did he do that, do you know? And at some point, they started some businesses, is that correct? If you could talk about some of that. Adkinson: Yes, they did. I’m surprised at how fast that went, because he became—I have pictures showing him with a grocery store. I know he had a fish market. There was a pool hall, and there was a hotel. And then back to the M. & M. restaurant, which most Pasco natives became real familiar with, and that was prior to—that would be the last thing before Pearl Harbor. So it was in the ‘30s that they had acquired this restaurant that people would go to in crowds. They would stand in line to get in. Bauman: Yeah, that’s a lot of businesses. Adkinson: That’s a lot of businesses. Franklin: Yeah. Bauman: Right. So, I assume, then, he was no longer working for the railroad at that point if he was operating businesses. Adkinson: Yeah, he—I don’t know when the last Yamauchi son was born. Uncle Bob was the youngest. But by then, pretty much it worked like machinery. I know my dad had to start the fire in the morning, do all that kinds of stuff from the time he was about seven or eight years old. So he had his own labor crew working to help with that, along with his wife, who did all the housekeeping when they had the hotel, and a lot of some interesting stories came out of that. But anyway, he was an entrepreneur. I think you might have read in the historical society, he would take Aunt Mary, who was only ten, as an interpreter—much as the immigrants do today; you see them in the grocery stores or the doctors’ offices and so forth—to the city council meeting. At the time, he brought gifts, like candy. And they told him, no, Harry, you can’t do that. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: But you said, it was Mary? He would bring his daughter, Mary, to the meetings to kind of— Adkinson: Yeah, to interpret for him, uh-huh. Bauman: Interesting. Maybe you could talk a little bit, then, about their children, your parents. Maybe if you could each talk and say which of their children were your parents and a little bit about them, each of them as well, maybe? So again with Brenda, if you want to— Kupfer: My mother was the second-born. Cashmere, Washington, she was born. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Do you know what year that was? What year she was born? Kupfer: She was born in 1906. No, 1907. Sorry. Adkinson: Yeah. 1907. Kupfer: Yeah, she can’t be born the same year as-- Satoh: No, Mom was ’05. Kupfer: ’05? Okay. She was born in 1907 in Cashmere. Bauman: And her name was? Kupfer: Cheoko. Bauman: Cheoko. Kupfer: Yamauchi. Bauman: Okay. And Roy? Satoh: My mother was the first-born. In Hawai’i, in Honolulu. That was partially the reason that they were there, because she was pregnant and ready to deliver. Her Japanese name is Harue. When she started school, they had a hard time, the Americans, the Caucasians, had a hard time pronouncing that. They called her everything from hallelujah, eventually watered that down to just Lou, L-O-U. Franklin: Could you spell that Japanese? Satoh: Uh. Franklin: If you can. Satoh: [LAUGHTER] I would butcher it up. It’s H-A-R-U-A-Y-A, I believe. Franklin: Okay. But she was kind of colloquially known as Lou. Satoh: Lou, yes. Kupfer: Do you want me to look it up? Satoh: Huh? Kupfer: I got it on that paper. Satoh: Oh. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, one of—being the firstborn, she took on a lot of the responsibilities as many firstborn children do, you know. One of the goals in her life was to go to college. She was the first Asian American to graduate from the Pasco school system. She was the class valedictorian, graduated with honors. But being she was the oldest and had the responsibility of the younger children, in those days, girls didn’t go to school. They worked. So she eventually became a bookkeeper. But she helped in the restaurants and the different businesses. She particularly enjoyed the pool hall. She was quite the pool player. In my youth, I remember her buying a miniature pool table, setting it up on the card table or whatever it was. We would play pool on this miniature table. But in her day, I guess she was quite the pool shark. Bauman: I think I’ve seen a photo in a restaurant, possibly, or maybe the store, of two of the daughters, and I’m guessing maybe it’s the two oldest. Lou and Cheoko, possibly? I don’t remember. But it’s the grandparents, Harry and Cheka, and then two of the daughters, I think, and must’ve been, I’m guessing— Kupfer: Probably the oldest, yeah. Bauman: Yeah. All right, Linda, your parents? Adkinson: My dad was the first son born, so that made him more or less responsible, as he went through his growing up years, when it came time for the two next brothers down. They wanted to go to college. And they were enrolled at the University of Washington. One of them was already, I think, was still there when Pearl Harbor hit. I’m pretty sure that was the way it went. Anyway, he was responsible for putting them through. So his wishes were dashed, because he had the family responsibility. So his growing up years was a little disappointing. He wanted to get into construction, like all of his friends were in Pasco. There were so many of them that didn’t go to school or weren’t able to go to school. The first thing they would head for would be some kind of construction work. His wish was that, until Pearl Harbor. So that was dashed also. My grandparents lived with us since I was born. So we were more of a family unit with a matriarch and a patriarch. Yeah, which he deferred to. Bauman: And what was his first name? Adkinson: Charles. Bauman: Charles, okay. I believe I’ve seen some photos of you with your grandparents when you were a beauty pageant winner, or some sort of pageant? Adkinson: Oh, the Water Follies. Pasco was the one that had the Water Follies, locally. And then after 1959, Kennewick and Richland’s weren’t doing so well; they decided to combine into the Tri-Cities Water Follies. So, yeah. Bauman: Okay. And you grew up with your grandparents there, so [inaudible]. Adkinson: I did, I did, from the time I was little. So the time in Spokane was pretty idyllic. One thing I want to say about Spokane, I was baptized in the United Methodist Church there at four. This lady, her name was Mrs. Black. When Pearl Harbor came, she stood up with a lot of the women in those days, and I guess they stood up against the internment. The church that we’d gone to, we weren’t able to go to. Instead, she single-handedly turned that deserted church, then, into a church that welcomed Japanese Americans and Asians of any kind that were not allowed to be going to the other church. So we were raised there, and I have to give her kudos. She must’ve been some lady. Bauman: And this was United Methodist Church in Spokane, you said? Adkinson: Yeah. United Methodist, uh-huh. Bauman: Great. And definitely want to get back to World War II experiences, family experiences, but I want to get to Bruce first and then go back. Yamauchi: My father was Charles. So, same as—she’s my sister. But I can make mention of the other brothers and sisters, or uncles and aunts for us. There’s Lou was the first, Cheoko was the second. Mary was the third. Charles was the fourth. Now I’m going to need help. George? Then Frances. Adkinson: Yeah. Yamauchi: Then Jimmy, then Bob. Adkinson: Is that eight? Yamauchi: I don’t know. Adkinson: No, you missed Hannah. [ALL]: Hannah. Bauman: Where would Hannah have been in the— Adkinson: They actually— Kupfer: She was after Aunt Mary. Adkinson: Her gravestone says 1911. Dad was born in December of 1911, and apparently she was born in January. Bauman: Okay. Adkinson: I don’t know how that worked out. I still don’t know. So they were very close. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Okay. So, I guess, I don’t know, maybe if we could talk about your parents’ experiences, parents’, grandparents’ experiences during World War II. What that meant for your grandparents, for your parents, how they experienced it? Whoever wants to jump in, we’ll have all four of you at some point talk about that. Yamauchi: They didn’t really talk about it that much. It was kind of in the past. I came along much later. But it was in the past, and they didn’t want to dwell on it. Adkinson: But, Roy, you should tell about your mom in Japan. Satoh: Yeah, well, as a lot of the Japanese residents and Japanese American were rounded it up and interned in many, many camps across the west coast. My dad was a businessman. He worked for an import/export company in Portland and Seattle; they had branches in both cities. He had a lot of business contacts with other Japanese businessmen, companies. So when they interned him, he was shipped to Montana, which was a little bit more than a typical internment camp. The government was more concerned about him, because of his business contacts. Of course, my mom, with an infant son, followed him to Montana. At that time, it wasn’t the best time of year. So when they eventually released him, he was given the choice to go to a regular internment camp or go back to Japan. He was kind of disgruntled with the way that he and his family had been treated, so he chose to go back to Japan. They crossed the country from Washington to New York, got on a steamer, and sailed to South Africa. There, they got off the American line ship and boarded a Japanese liner. The American officials and ambassadors that were in Japan at that time then were coming back to the states on that particular ship, and then returned to the United States. So anyway, they ended up back in a small farming community in Japan. The people there thought enough of my dad that eventually they elected him mayor of that small community. But my mother, being an American, she was looked down upon. Got kind of ostracized. She was the foreigner, she was the American, the enemy. So after—well, my dad died there of cancer, but the war was still going on. My brother had passed—infant brother had passed away from diphtheria. So she was there pretty much alone with me, an infant son. Again, she was ostracized for being American, so there wasn’t much help from the local community. I remember hearing stories later about the family here in the United States sending care packages to her in Japan, which oftentimes, she didn’t receive. She struggled for a couple years until the war ended. When the people there realized that they were not going to win the war, then they came to my mother and asked her to teach them English. So she had some income and some support in that sense. Finally, in 1950 then, she brought me back to the States after the war had settled. Bauman: Yeah, that must’ve been a really difficult time for her. Was she able to communicate at all with letters in any way during the war, do you know, with the family members here? Satoh: I, again, like most Japanese that were interned, very little oral history. They just didn’t speak about it, you know. I know my mother was a collector. She saved everything. But I have not seen too much of what pertained there. I’ve seen those old, old, I think they’re airmail letters that’s written on that real thin tissue paper type stuff. I’ve seen those, but I didn’t take the opportunity to read them. I’m assuming a lot of them were written in Japanese. Bauman: So, you said she came back in 1950? You with her, right? Satoh: Yes, yes. Bauman: So how old were you at that point? Satoh: So I was just five. Bauman: Okay. And do you have any memories of being in Japan at all? Satoh: [LAUGHTER] Very—especially now, very few. I’ve seen photographs. Again, my father was well-to-do, so they owned a nice home on a hill, rice paddies, and a mountain. The mountain was so they could collect firewood, and then of course, I don’t know how big the rice paddy was, but I’ve heard stories of them going out and getting fish in the rice paddy, and of course harvesting the grain. The few things that I do remember are mostly from photographs, is I had a little dog. Again, photographs of the countryside and things like that. Up to, I don’t know, maybe 20 years ago, I used to be able to remember the flavor of a Japanese popsicle. Of course, having come over to the States at age five, everything that I knew prior to that was basically in Japanese. I could relate to them in Japanese words. So it was—well, our grandparents, even, shunned anyone from speaking Japanese in the home. They knew it was important for them, for their children to succeed in this country, and they knew if they relied on Japanese, that was not going to help them succeed in a country where English was the primary language. So when I learned English, all my recollection being in Japanese just kind of faded. Adkinson: Except he knew Roy Rogers. Satoh: Yeah. Adkinson: That’s how he got his name. Bauman: Oh, okay. So that’s where the Roy came from. Satoh: Yeah, that’s where the Roy came from. Her brother, Roger, when they asked me what American name I wanted, because the only—Masashi was my given name, and the only two words I knew were Roy Rogers. Her brother Roger—and my Aunt Mary loved to tell this story—she said, Roger would say, you can’t be Roger, because I’m already Roger! And Aunt Mary loved to tell that story. Hence, Roy was the name I picked. Bauman: Uh-huh. And so when you and your mother came back in 1950, you came back to Pasco? Satoh: Yes, yes. Bauman: Came back here, then, okay. So others of you, if you want to talk about your parents, Brenda, during the war, what happened? Adkinson: Bea, I think that Jean, probably, if they wanted to know it all from the family, would be her. Kupfer: Yeah. My sister, Jean Kazawa, was interviewed a few years ago, and she related a lot of the history of what happened in the camp. Adkinson: And we have copies, right? Kupfer: I have a copy, yeah. But I think the historical society has one, too. Bauman: Oh, okay. Adkinson: And it’s detailed. Kupfer: Yeah, it’s very detailed. I have no recollection, since I was born after they were released from Heart Mountain. Bauman: So your parents were sent to Heart Mountain? Kupfer: My mother and father and four siblings were sent to Heart—well, by way of Portland stockyards or whatever it was called. Bauman: So they were sent to Portland first, and from there to— Kupfer: Yeah, and they were sent to Heart Mountain, Wyoming. Which we couldn’t understand why, you know, clear down there. And my dad worked for the railroad also. Bauman: Okay. Now, did your parents live in Benton County, then? Kupfer: Well, that’s what I understand, is they lived in Kennewick. I remember them talking about living in Plymouth—or my sister talking about Plymouth, but I don’t know. Franklin: And where is Plymouth? Adkinson: About 20 minutes—it’s right at the river where— Kupfer: Just before you cross over into Umatilla— Adkinson: On the McNary Dam? Franklin: Oh. Bauman: Yeah. Adkinson: Plymouth is just west— Bauman: Sort of on the State Route 14 there. Kupfer: Yeah. Adkinson: My only recollection of Pearl Harbor—I mean, of those years, was there were four of us cousins born in 1941. So it was a little inauspicious. But Dad, being in the position he was, became very industrious in those years, because he not only was working to get his mother and dad out of Arkansas. It came time, George, my uncle George, when they finally allowed the Japanese Americans to join the service, he was out, but his wife and child, Terry, was another ’41-er, and were also interned someplace. So Dad also worked to get him out. And then there was another situation in which he needed to get some sponsorships. So he was very busy. And I tell you, the Pasco natives that were friends, and a lot of them I think, became friends, because Grandpa was a fellow small business person. So they, through that connection, I think they all got to know each other a little more than ordinarily. So most of those years, I remember lots of letters being written. A lot of—I have a couple of them. My uncle George wrote to the Tri-City Herald in that time. I put that in the paper because it was just a plea to remember who we all were. Bauman: I’ve actually used that letter in my classes. Adkinson: Oh, have you really? Bauman: I’ve had my students read that letter. Adkinson: Yeah, he was in the go-for-broke thing. Bauman: It’s such an amazing letter, very poignant letter addressing, really, the heart of a lot of the issues, right? Adkinson: Yes. Yeah, it really went to the point. Yeah. So he was more active then in more or less just getting his family back together. That was really his job. He wasn’t allowed to join the service as he would have loved to have done, because he had a physical heart problem. So that was something he was very disappointed in. So I think that’s why he got involved. Because ordinarily he was a pretty quiet person. Bauman: So I just want to clarify, which family members then were sent to internment camps? I know your grandparents were initially. Your parents were. Adkinson: Aunt Mary was living in Pasco. Aunt Mary, her situation was, you might as well say, she was alone. She had a terrible time, because of course they had to close the restaurant; it was closed down. There were some problems between different legion things that happened. She got a job with a local lumberyard and finally was able to survive and support herself. In the meantime, Auntie Fran’s husband, she was a Koyama, and Uncle Spadie joined immediately. He, at wherever point was—they started a school in San Francisco for native Japanese American guys who maybe knew the language, could read, write, interpret and that sort of thing, so it meant that they might have spent time in Japan. Uncle Spadie was an ideal candidate, and they went searching for all of these men. There were, I think, 5,000 they came up with, and went to school. That became a secret for years and years and years. Learned—well, he was in the Army, so he worked under MacArthur in the Pacific, which is where these men were. And a lot of times, you know, people would not believe me when I said I had an uncle who was serving in the Pacific—who had served. But that was his job, was to interpret. He was guarded by any blonde, fair-skinned soldier as a bodyguard to keep from, you know, keep him safe. And in turn, a couple of them lost their lives guarding him. In turn, he named his children, two of his boys after those two men. So Fran was, I believe, in internment, but I don’t know where. Bauman: Okay. And then George was initially, and then was able to join the military? Adkinson: He also joined. He had a hearing problem. He was the next-to-the-youngest, and he would’ve been old enough. But he worked at what they called the icehouse at the railroad center out there, and that was considered a security thing because they were used as a supply route. So he was there. So since he lived in Pasco then, he didn’t have to go. Bauman: Mm-hmm. And you mentioned—so, your Aunt Mary was in Pasco and kind of taking care of some of the business, had to close the restaurant, is that right? Adkinson: Yeah, yeah. Bauman: Was it lack of business, was there, you know, some— Adkinson: I don’t know if they were ordered to close it. I would assume that might have been so. Now, my dad, when he had this land in Kennewick, he bought that land, a farmhouse and five acres where the Angus Village is, from the owner, properties. And when Pearl Harbor hit, he came to my dad and he said, Charlie, he said, we don’t know what’s going to happen. So he said, I’m returning your money. So he gave him the money that Dad paid, which was all of $500, and gave it to him. So we have stories like that all over. My mother’s family was from the Hood River Valley. The neighboring orchardist came to my uncle and said, I’ll take care of your farm for you. And he did. So it was, you know, lots of those stories don’t get told, and I wish they would be. Because it’s important. Bauman: So after the war, they were able to come back and their farm was still there? Adkinson: Well, in Hood River, it was a little different. When he got out of—when the family got out of internment camp, they were sent to—they lived in Ontario, Oregon. Bauman: Okay. Adkinson: And they were supposed to stay there a year and they thought it would be okay to move back to Hood River. The term was it was still “hot,” so they stayed two years. In turn, he turned that orchard that was a rental place that he was living on into a profit. So he was actually able to return and be able to have a start on regaining his orchard and going right back to work. He was prepared for that. But they went so far as having a memorial where my two uncles on my mother’s side were not on the memorial. Their names were finally put in, I think, in the ‘80s or ‘90s in town. Bauman: You mentioned earlier that your grandparents were sent to Arkansas. I wondered if you could talk about that a little bit more? When we were talking before we started the interview, you mentioned a little bit more about why that happened and efforts to sort of have them removed from there or whatever. I wondered if you could kind of discuss that. Adkinson: I don’t know what the conditions were. Terry still lives—actually resettled and he’s a doctor. He resettled in Arkansas and some of his things were to dig into it, into the history of what that place was like in those days. He would have information on that. But to get Grandma and Grandpa out, apparently there was a military board, some kind of a board here in Tri-Cities that oversaw—especially, I suppose, the alien situation. So they applied to there, and after, I think it was four prominent families from Pasco who said they would sponsor them if they would allow them to come back from Arkansas. And then they had my father’s promise that he would be responsible and move inland, away from Pasco. So that’s why we ended up in Spokane until after the war. Bauman: That’s right, in Spokane. That was considered farther away? [LAUGHTER] Adkinson: I guess it was inland enough. The Columbia River didn’t go right through Spokane, so. Bauman: Right. Franklin: Well, and there was the Big Pasco operation, just with all of that military supplies moving— Bauman: Mm-hmm, and Hanford. Adkinson: Naval base was there. Franklin: And Hanford. Adkinson: And the Naval base was there, too. Franklin: So that makes sense in that context, I guess. Adkinson: Sure. Bauman: Right. Adkinson: Yeah. Franklin: Even though it’s really not—on a map, it’s not that much more inland. Adkinson: Well, I think after the war, it’s interesting, because Camp Hanford, there was a bus system. So there was travel between the three cities. My feeling was that a lot of the soldiers, particularly if they were Asian, it was suggested that if they wanted to go to a café or anything like that, they could go to Pasco, because they would be welcome there. Consequently, Dad was inundated with some young men in the Army who would get off the bus on the corner and go down a block on Lewis Street there and go into the café and have a meal or whatever. Yeah. Bauman: Just clarifying a little bit more that, your grandparents were sent to Arkansas, was that because they had been born in Japan and were Japanese nationals, is that why they were sent to Arkansas, or was it because they lived in Pasco, or both, or do you know? Adkinson: Because they were Japanese natives, yeah. Bauman: Okay. Adkinson: As I say, they couldn’t be citizens, so they always had to go into the post office and sign those—it’s a card. Bauman: Oh, with the registration. Adkinson: You had to say, yeah, that I am. Every year they did that, even after the war. Bauman: Hmm. Wow. I wonder, then, if you could talk about after the war, what was it like, either from your perspective, being in Tri-Cities, those of you who were here, in Pasco, what it was like after the war for your family, your families? Adkinson: Well, when I moved down in the third grade—we moved back in ’49, we were able to come back. And Dad partnered with his sister in the restaurant. I started third grade at Whittier. And I’d have to say, in Spokane, also, I had no trouble at all as a child. It just wasn’t done. The only thing, I didn’t have any knowledge or knew any African American children in Spokane. But I did at Whittier. So it was—when I look back on it, I was really thankful, because we had some interesting, very, very good teachers. One was an ex-Navy guy who became a teacher. He was at the Naval base. He was fantastic. But going through school in the ‘50s, of course, everybody says it was the happy ‘50s and that was true. For everyone. Of course they all thought we lived like Leave It to Beaver. And then maybe 50 years later, at my 50-year reunion, we found out it wasn’t exactly, you know, that way. Real life wasn’t quite that way in small town Pasco. But at the time, we all had that attitude. Now, Bruce and Roy and Bea went through the ‘60s. I think there was a time, that was a decade of, ’60 to ’70 was a decade of—and my children had a little bit about that in the late ‘60s—that caused an awful lot of turmoil. Which we never—we weren’t used to. Yeah. And they desegregated, for instance, Pasco, the restaurants, even Pasco was ordered. If a person came from the eastside, and came in for a cup of coffee, you had better serve them. So there was some of that going on, which never—we never had a problem with before. So it was really interesting, I think, especially after Kennedy was assassinated. To me, that was a big turning point. Bauman: So did all of you, then, grow up mostly in Pasco? [ALL]: Yes. Kupfer: Graduated Pasco High. Satoh: Pasco High graduates. Bauman: Okay, and-- Franklin: Oh, sorry. And all in east Pasco? Adkinson: No, the younger ones, by the time I was in the fourth or fifth grade, they started sending the younger ones to Longfellow School on the west side. But I continued to finish—so I had to cross the tracks, which was not supposed to be done, but I did. Kupfer: You did? Adkinson: It was dangerous. [LAUGHTER] Kupfer: You lived under the underpass? Adkinson: We went—we used to go under the underpass until Sarah Fukazawa and I ran into a problem under the underpass. Kupfer: Oh. Adkinson: And we were scared to go down there again, so. Bauman: So Bruce, Brenda, do you have some more experiences growing up in Pasco? Yamauchi: I didn’t experience any discriminations. Or I was oblivious to all that. More focus, ethnic-wise, in the ‘60s were the blacks. The Hispanic population wasn’t all that great, or large, at that time. But between me and my fellow students, I didn’t experience any problems. Adkinson: Was there any problems with the bussing? Yamauchi: I always walked to school or Mom took me. Adkinson: Oh. [LAUGHTER] Bauman: Brenda or Roy? Similar? Kupfer: Occasionally in middle school? Someone would say something, you know, discriminatory. But for the most part, no. Satoh: I felt that because of our restaurant, our family was known quite widely, especially in Pasco. In fact, Mesa, Eltopia, some of the Japanese families up the valley even would come into Pasco and eat at our family restaurant. But growing up—well, Brenda and I, we started kindergarten out at the air base. And then I think I went to Whittier for a year and a half or thereabouts. I can’t remember when Longfellow was built. But then we went to—attended Longfellow. I don’t know if it was the proximity—we lived on First and Lewis, which is right near the entrance to the underpass, and of course, we were exposed to a lot of the, in those days it was the hobos, transients. There was a small Chinese community, and they had the opium dens and the underground tunnels. Adkinson: But do you think they were there when we were growing up? I don’t think they were there when— Satoh: I don’t know. I really don’t know. But I do know there was a house of ill repute just down the street from us. I remember playing down the street and seeing ladies up on the second story balcony in their kimonos, having their cigarettes or whatever. None the wiser. We were out there playing in the dirt. Adkinson: They weren’t oriental, though. Satoh: No, no, they weren’t oriental, that’s true. But the caution that our parents tried to instill upon us was not so much any of the dangers that kids face these days, you know. We played all over the neighborhood. And we had a close-knit Japanese community there. There was, I think four families that lived within a few blocks of each other. We kind of grew up with those families. Bauman: Do you know who those families were, what their last names were? Satoh: Ogata. Bauman: Mm-hmm. Satoh: Ono. Yes, Ono. Fukazawa. Was there any others? Kupfer: I think that’s it. Satoh: I think that was it. Adkinson: Well, then we had the Wong Howes and Johnny Lou’s family. So there were two Chinese families, too. Bauman: And were those families there before the war, as well, do you know? Adkinson: The Wong Howes were definitely. And the Onos were, as far as I know. Bauman: Okay. Adkinson: Ogatas had the little tiny laundry across the street from us. But the Wong Howes had a famous cinematographer. Bauman; Right, right, I’ve heard of that. James Wong Howe. Adkinson: Right. I think Picnic and some of the others were his. Yeah, yeah. Bauman: So the other Japanese American families, the Ogatas, the Onos, was it? Satoh: Yeah. Bauman: Do you know what happened with them during the war? Or in Pasco, were they able to stay there? Adkinson: I’m sure—I don’t know if they went to internment, do you? Satoh: No, I don’t know either. Adkinson: Many of the Ogatas had at least two teachers in the family—oh, Ted was also a teacher. So they stayed in the area and taught. Bauman: Oh, okay. Adkinson: The Onos worked at various jobs and stuff. They were more along my dad’s thinking about hunting and fishing when they grew up, it was hunting and fishing all the time. For sustenance as well as for just the sport of doing that. Their growing up years consisted of doing all these chores around the house and so forth, but as soon as they were able, they were either at the river, on the river, or off in the fields hunting. Yeah. So their childhood was sort of like I would expect it to be for any early American in those years. Before Pearl Harbor. Franklin: Did you or your parents ever have any issues with treatment in Kennewick? With the police there or refusal of service or anything like that? Adkinson: The only time I ever remembered actually experiencing that was in Richland at a woman’s clothing store. They just didn’t wait on me. But Mom and Dad, I can’t recall any time that, in Pasco or Kennewick that they had a problem. Of course, Kennewick was sort of off-limits. It didn’t bother us in high school. We would tootle across the old green bridge any time we wanted to. Kupfer: I don’t have that many memories of family, because my mother was the first to marry. She had her family. So I was not part of the growing-up that they were part of. I have different memories. Bauman: Mm-hmm. So where did you grow up then, did you--? Kupfer: I grew up in Pasco. But I know after Mom and Dad and the siblings were released, I know they spent some time in Payette, Idaho. And then slowly made their way back, but I don’t know when. My sister probably addressed that when she was interviewed. But basically I grew up in Pasco. Adkinson: And I think, too, your mom had so many responsibilities because your father had died. You know, in ’49 or something? Kupfer: Yeah, my dad passed in ’49. I was only three. Adkinson: So then there were five kids. And her only brother, Jerry, was involved in the Korean action. Kupfer: Korean, yeah. Even though he had been in camp— Adkinson: He was only 19. Kupfer: He also joined the service. He was in the Army. And was injured during the Korean War. Franklin: Wow. Kupfer: But, yeah, basically, just stayed in Pasco the whole time. Adkinson: That was quite different, though. The Korean War was so different. Because Truman insisted it was called an “action.” We were all—at that time, then, Bea and her family were living with us. There was a big calendar. They had these big railroad calendar which her older sister, Arlene, would check off where Jerry was. This would be her brother. So I don’t know how many families in Pasco were involved with that sort of thing happening in their family. He was missing in action for weeks and weeks. It turned out, as a medic, he was found. But with various serious—Auntie Cheoko was distraught, everybody was distraught. But I don’t recall this happening outside in the school situation or anything about the Korean War. Bauman: Interesting. I only have like one more sort of question, I don’t know if you have other questions, Robert, you want to ask? Franklin: When did your—you mentioned that your parents didn’t talk much about the time in camp, but you did learn stuff about it. When did they finally—did they ever start to open up about it? And a follow up to that: if they didn’t, when did you start to want to learn more about that history and want to talk about that history? Adkinson: Boy. The only one I—I think I did ask some questions of Brenda’s sister, Arlene. Because they were the only ones that had kids and were in my age group. She even didn’t want to say too much about it. She didn’t like it, that was evident. And Grandma and Grandpa never talked about it. It was just an unspoken thing that you just didn’t ask. So one of the things—now, this didn’t happen about the internment, but I did have a Marine who fought in the Pacific who came into my US history class when I was a senior in ’59. It was very interesting story about the war. Evidently, he had heard about the interpreters and that sort of thing. Because, at first, he said, oh, no, there wasn’t any Japanese Americans there. Then he thought about it longer, and he said, oh, yeah. So he talked about it in a sort of a distant way about what we were doing at home, because here these guys would’ve been in camp if they hadn’t been allowed to go enlist. Yeah. Satoh: Yeah, I just recently saw a PBS presentation, I believe it’s entitled Silent Sacrifice. Adkinson: Oh, yeah. Satoh: It was about a lot of the internees. That’s basically the same for our family. You just didn’t talk about it. Out of sight, out of mind. For me, it was years later that I heard outside from the family that part of the family was interned. Through the years, just picking up bits and pieces, I think we had some—well, the Ono family, some of the daughters were more—again, this would be the second or third generation as opposed to the first generation, Nisei. They talked about it more than our family talked about it. For me, that was kind of an a-ha moment. My father’s internment and the trip to South Africa and then back up to Japan, I just kind of put pieces together from souvenirs that my mother had, photographs. And it wasn’t like they said it was taboo to talk about it; it just wasn’t mentioned. Bauman: So I was going to ask, what would you most like people to know or understand about your family’s history here in the Tri-Cities? I say that because I know most of my students—[LAUGHTER]—know nothing, really, about the experience of Japanese Americans here in the area. SO I’m just curious what you would like them to know. Adkinson: I get complaints from the older folk, and there’s not many left. My cousin Jane Maruta was just complaining the other day that the younger generation don’t want to know anything about Japan. She was born in Japan, she came from the family estate over there, and they sent her here to get an American education. She feels that they should make it part of their heritage to know the family history in the home country. The younger ones absolutely just don’t want to do that. They’re not interested, for one thing. And it seems like they want to live life right now. They really don’t look into the past at anything. That was probably the third or fourth relative that had mentioned that the young people just don’t—they don’t even want some of the material things that are being passed down within the family that’s very important. But they—so I think that we’ve acclimated to being American. We were American from the time we were born, so it’s apparently not appealing to the younger ones. But I am, so I go over and talk to her a lot. Just so—just in case one of the younger ones might come up. I should start writing it down. But my classmate, Doc Hastings, told me, you should write a book about your family in town. And I said, well, one of these days. [LAUGHTER] Satoh: One of the things that our family, and many, many Japanese families—it was important for our grandparents to instill in us the desire to assimilate into this country to become part of the fabric. Also, to be contributors as opposed to takers. Again, because of his example, my grandfather’s example of this, hard work, entrepreneurship, and willing to do what it takes for his family, again, it was important for him that the boys went to college. He knew that education was one of the main roads to success. Also, it was important to them—they were stout Buddhists. I remember them taking their little offerings to their bedroom. They had a little shrine there. So religion was important to them. There’s a picture of us, I’ve seen it, we’re all dressed in our Sunday go-to-church clothes: white shirts, slacks, ties, girls in dresses. It reminds me of the cover to Abbey Road, the Beatles album, Abbey Road. Adkinson: [LAUGHTER] Oh, dear! Satoh: Here’s all of us, in a line, going to church with her older sister leading us to church. So religion was very important to our grandparents. Bauman: What church would that have been, do you know? Satoh: It would have been— Kupfer: Methodist. Satoh: The Methodist church. Adkinson: The United Methodist Church. Bauman: In Pasco? Satoh: Yeah. Adkinson: Yeah. Satoh: So— Adkinson: It’s—you know, Grandpa did take a couple of trips back to Japan during his years when he thought he’d made it. And one of the trips was rather hilarious, because he took specifically my uncle George. And it wasn’t until he got to Japan that George realized what he was there for. You know, like many Catholics, you get eight kids, you’ve got to pick one son who might be the priest in the family. That’s exactly what he was after, was one of those monastery things where the monks are or whatever they call it. But he got out of Dodge fast. [LAUGHTER] Adkinson: He did. He just was astounded. No, no, I’m going home. But that was probably his own culture. Maybe his one contribution to maybe trying to get these, one of the kids anyway involved into his native country, I suppose. He tried to introduce French fries to his crew over there in Japan. He said, this is really great. Nobody said a word as they tasted this. He said, you know, he told them to get the oil, and they cut the French fries up and everything. No one said a word, but several hours later many of them got sick because he didn’t specify what kind of oil he wanted. So they were French fried into kerosene oil. Bauman: Oh, wow. Franklin: Oh! Adkinson: So that didn’t endear anybody to—[LAUGHTER] Yamauchi: Crazy Americans. [LAUGHTER] Adkinson: Yeah! I thought that was just hilarious. But I could see where he had made sort of a weak attempt to kind of get somebody assimilated enough to come back—or rather, stay there. Bauman: So how long did your grandparents live? I know the photo of you and you’re a teenager or whatever. But at least, you must’ve spent a fair amount of time with them. Adkinson: Mm-hmm. Well, Grandpa died—both Grandma and Grandpa died after I got married. Grandma died the same— Yamauchi: It was in the ‘60s, wasn’t it? Adkinson: Well, I got married in ’61. Yamauchi: Late ‘50s, early ‘60s. Bauman: Okay. Adkinson: And then Grandpa was 89; Grandma was 75. Yeah. Satoh: Yeah, I got a copy of the obituary. Franklin: Was there—so you said your grandparents were Buddhist and remained pretty devout. Was there ever any tension there between—or did—because it sounds like your parents were Methodist. Did your grandparents want them to adopt Christianity and not be Buddhist, or was there every any tension there between—? Adkinson: In Spokane of all things, during the time we were up there and having to stay there, there was a Buddhist church in Spokane on South Hill. One day, Grandpa told my mom—I was the oldest child, so—he said, we want to take Reiko to the Buddhist church. I was six, I think. I was scared. It’s so different from the Methodist church, you know. It’s got—well, it’s kind of Catholic. It’s got incense, it’s got rosary beads. They have the gong and the whole thing. I was absolutely terrified. And I cried. Grandpa was so mad at me, he wouldn’t take me again. I thought, yes! You know? [LAUGHTER] It was—so they did try. But I think that they thought once I did that, everybody else—the kids weren’t going to— And they did try to start a Japanese school, Grandpa did, in the ‘50s. He got the Ogatas and all the Onos. He had my dad build school tables and ordered books from Japan to teach us the language and so forth. That didn’t last beyond skates and bicycles and after school. Bauman: Now, was that where the mural was? Adkinson: Mm-hm. Kupfer: In the basement. Adkinson: Right in the basement. Bauman: Right. Adkinson: Yeah, that was an old bank building. Bauman: Okay, and that’s in Pasco somewhere. Adkinson: On First and Lewis. Satoh: Yeah, it’s gone now. Yamauchi: It’s demolished. Adkinson: Yeah, but they had—the bank was going to build a brand-new, it was supposed to be brick; it ended up being concrete, because the Depression hit in ’29. So a couple years later they left it as that, and Dad bought the building. Bauman: And they were able to save the mural, is that right? Was the mural saved? Adkinson: City of Pasco did. Bauman: City of Pasco did save it, the mural. So what timeframe would that have been that the Japanese school that your grandfather— Adkinson: In the ‘50s. Early ‘50s, because I was still in grade school. Bauman: Okay. Franklin: Wow. Bauman: And so do you have memories of that, of going to the Japanese school? Adkinson: Well, I don’t remember anybody sounding very enthusiastic. It was deathly quiet when Grandpa was up at the board doing stuff. People say, oh, you missed your chance to learn some culture there. And I said, well, at the time, I didn’t think I missed anything. [LAUGHTER] But he did make attempts, I guess. But at the same time, he was really educated-minded. So he wanted— Kupfer: He got the rest of you to go. Adkinson: Hmm? Kupfer: He didn’t get me to go. Adkinson: You didn’t go at all? Oh, my gosh! Oh, Bea! Kupfer: I was one of those, you know, wrapped herself in her mom’s skirt. [LAUGHTER] Satoh: Yeah, there was a little stage in front of that mural. It was about, maybe, two feet high. I’m not sure if it was for the 88th birthday celebration, which is a big event for the Japanese culture to celebrate your 88th birthday. But they tried to teach us different Japanese dances. I have some pictures of us dressed in kimonos in front of the mural on the stage. I think I understood it to be for his 88th birthday, but I don’t remember exactly. Kupfer: Well, Pop-pop painted it himself. Satoh: Yes, he did, yeah. Kupfer: I guess he knew he was going to have a birthday celebration. Adkinson: They did celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary American style. Kupfer: And that was down there in the basement. Bauman: That was down in that same— Adkinson: Uh-huh, but it was all done just the way their neighbors would have a 50th. So it was nice. Bauman: So the City of Pasco was able to save the mural. Where is it now? Do you know where it is? Satoh: The last I heard is they cut it out of the wall and while they were building the new police station, they put it in one of the warehouses intending to maybe incorporate that into the new police station. But I haven’t heard any more and I haven’t been to the police station myself. Bauman: That’d be really interesting to find out where it is, if it’s incorporated into the police station. Satoh: Yes. I initially couldn’t remember if it was painted on concrete or on some kind of a wall. So my intention was to see if there was any way to salvage that. While they were demolishing the building, I was able to get access to the building and go down there and examine the mural. In fact, I took a few pictures of it there while it was there. But I discovered it was painted on concrete, so there was no way I could haul that out of the building. So in my mind, that was the last of the wall. But then it was quite a surprise when we learned that the city was going to try to restore it and save it. Adkinson: You know— Bauman: I’d like to find out where it is. Franklin: Yeah, me too. Adkinson: Could I say something about the difference between a place like Seattle and the Tri-Cities? I found it was very startling with—I went to an Asian—I think it was their annual August where they have what they call a dance and a festival. A young man I knew from Spokane came up and said, this girl that you went to Girl’s Day with, she’s here and she wants to meet you and introduce you to her friends because if you come up to the University of Washington, you could get into their group. And I said, what kind of group is this? And she said, it’s a sorority. And I said, you mean it’s all Japanese? And he said, yeah, he said, it’s really special if you get to get into there. And I thought about it for two seconds and I said, no, I don’t think I’d be interested. It really shocked me how segregated, even though all of this has happened after all these years, these big cities are still segregated. They still work as one culture and some of them blend into each other’s. I know in Los Angeles there’s a mixture, and Seattle it’s the black community and the Oriental and Japanese communities pretty much close together there. Whereas we in the Tri-Cities, we’re scattered between everywhere. You go to a school, you don’t have a separate quote-unquote group. You join what you want to join, or enter sports and whatever you want to do. But it really kind of shocked me at that time and it’s still going on today. I think even in athletics in Seattle, they’re having their problems because of some of the way they do their athletics bussing and transferring and stuff. Bauman: Well, is there anything we, you haven’t had a chance to talk about yet about your family’s history, that we haven’t asked you about that you’d like to share, or think you should share? Satoh: Well, Linda mentioning Seattle and sororities reminded me of a story, and our cousin Gail couldn’t be here; she’s out of town. But her father, Jim, went to the University of Washington. His intention was to become an engineer. So he enrolled in the engineering program, and I’m not sure how long he was in it; a year, year-and-a-half is what I recall. But an instructor came to him and said, Jim, being that you’re Oriental, Japanese, the chances of you becoming an engineer and getting a job as an engineer is just not in the works. That’s the only time in my recollection that our family has been addressed in that manner, you know. Adkinson: I think it happened to all the ethnic groups over the years, but one bright spot, WSU, my son in the early 1980s had a girlfriend and she was telling me that her grandmother was Native American. She was the first Native American to graduate from WSU. I forgot what her major was. But it was an amazing story. Because, you know, her grandmother, well, that must’ve meant way back, when, I have no idea. But it was a wonderful story of somebody persevering and that happens today. Dallas Barnes was in my class in ’59. He became an employee after he went through school. And I know there were times when he would call CJ Mitchell and tell CJ, you know, I just can’t, it’s tough. And he said, you’d better hang in there. Your parents are counting on you. So when you persevere, you will succeed. Yep. Bauman: Great, well, I just want to say thank you to all of you— Franklin: Yes. Bauman: --for coming in, sharing your stories. This has been fascinating. Franklin: Yes. Bauman: And I really appreciate you being willing to come in and do this. Franklin: Me, too. Thank you very much. Satoh: Well, thank you for having us. Adkinson: Thank you. Bauman: Appreciate it. I believe, Linda, you said you have some photos. I don’t know— Adkinson: I have some photos, but they probably wouldn’t show up. Some of them are pretty small. Bauman: Oh, okay. [VIDEO CUTS] Adkinson: And this is the collection I have of Gladys Coleman. Bauman: Okay. Now, is she related to the Reverend Coleman? Adkinson: He was a—yes, evidently he was—you know, I never did meet him. Bauman: Yeah, okay. Adkinson: But it sounded as though she was—her family came here in 1906, the same year Grandpa did. Franklin: Oh, I was just going to say I think the top picture was— Satoh: [inaudible] in the internment camp, huh? Bauman: I know, because Reverend Coleman was interviewed a long time ago, and I’d seen a copy of that interview. Adkinson: I’m going to show that to my girlfriend and see if she knows if it’s a Yakima person. Bauman: Oh, okay. So this was a classmate of yours? Adkinson: No, no, no, no. This is way back. Way back. Yeah, I have a copy of it made for the Tri-City Herald when they had that— Franklin: Linda, is this you here, or—who is this? Adkinson: No. That’s Aunt—I believe on the back it says Mary, doesn’t it? And Lou, Roy’s mom. Franklin: Yeah, A. Lou, little one Mary. Adkinson: And that’s Gladys Coleman. Franklin: Okay, so that’s one of the stores that your grandfather— Adkinson: One of the stores, yeah, uh-huh. Franklin: Okay, yeah. That’s really cool. Adkinson: Grandpa was very interested in the Grand Coulee Dam, so there were some pictures, but I didn’t know if you really wanted to look at this. Franklin: Wow, yeah, that’s really neat. Adkinson: This is an interesting picture I ran across. This has nothing to do with the Tri-Cities, but it’s a photo and in the back it said that this guy named Lee Pong is a nephew of the former owner of the M. & M. restaurant. And underneath it, look what it says. Bauman: General Chiang’s Army? Adkinson: Yeah! Bauman: Wow. Adkinson: Isn’t that something? And this— Bauman: General Chiang’s Army. Chiang Kai-Shek, I think? Adkinson: This picture shows the family still enjoy life and this is the regular work day and on the back it was taken in 1941. So I thought it was kind of ironic. Bauman: Right, the timing of the photo. Adkinson: Do you have this one? Satoh: Oh, possibly, yes. Adkinson: I think I did give you that. Yeah, I think I did give you that last year. Bauman: Pasco, May 24th, 1941. Adkinson: She’s gorgeous. Kupfer: I have a picture of your mom before she got married. And Jean when she was a toddler. So firstborn Yamauchi child with the first grandchild. Just a little teeny tiny thing. Franklin: Cascade on way to Pasco, Washington. Adkinson: This is Grandma and Grandpa. Bauman: Oh, okay. Adkinson: And there was a lot of pictures that really just show the many friends they had here. It was a completely integrated community. This is the old house—building on First and Lewis. Satoh: That’s where the mural was. Adkinson: And this is the little quote-unquote Chinese laundry of the Ogatas’ across the street. And then there was two sisters who lived on the corner who were from, I think, Louisiana. They were African American. So we all lived across the street and down the corner from each other. Bauman: Now what’s this classroom? Adkinson: I think that little Oriental girl has to be either Brenda’s mom or Aunt Mary. Bauman: Oh, okay. Kupfer: Not Mom. Adkinson: It’s not Mom? Kupfer: No. Adkinson: But the rest of them are mainly just to show—and here, this shows the comfortable us. You’ve got two guys, Mr. Ono and Grandpa, sitting, taking it easy in front of the courthouse like any other small-town folks do. Guys. Bauman: That’s a great photo. These are wonderful photos. Franklin: Yeah, they are. Adkinson: These are all photos of— Satoh: Yeah, share them. Kupfer: Those are two of my sisters. Bauman: Oh, at Heart Mountain. Kupfer: Yeah. I didn’t have them. Roy gave them to me. My older sister has all pictures of the family. Satoh: You should have it then so you can give it to your kids. Kupfer: I know. Adkinson: These are a lot of the businesses are in this, on the back, it’ll tell you. Franklin: “Tough Nuts” Brenda: But I have nothing. Bauman: So when were you born, again, Brenda? Kupfer: ’45. Bauman: ’45. I didn’t remember that. Okay. Kupfer: And the youngest one, she was born in ’41. But I think after she was born, I think they were interned. Adkinson: Right, because she was born in November of ’41, Connie was. So she was one of the four I was talking about. Bauman: Right. And I know general internment happened in like early ’42. Adkinson: Yeah, I think it took a year, didn’t it? Bauman: February/March of ’42 is when the Executive Order— Adkinson: Oh. Oh well that’s really close then, because December 7th would be ’41. Bauman: Yeah, it wasn’t immediately but it’s— Adkinson: So that’s months. Bauman: Yeah, within a few months. Adkinson: Oh, that’s shorter than I thought. Bauman: I think the Executive Order was sometime in early ’42. Adkinson: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Franklin: Mm-hmm. Bauman: Early ’42, right? The internment was? Yeah. Adkinson: One of their buildings burned down, as you can see. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Yeah, that was that first picture. Adkinson: Yeah. But there’s, I think, one of them is market and one of them is a restaurant, the M. & M. Restaurant. And then there’s another building of a—I think there’s a pool hall in there. I’m not sure. Kupfer: Your mom and my mom loved pool. Franklin: I love the fashion. Adkinson: I didn’t know she played. Kupfer: My mom loved to play pool. Adkinson: Oh my gosh. Satoh: Because it’s from the pool hall! Adkinson: What did Grandpa say? He wouldn’t even let anybody go into the card room! Franklin: Pasco High. Adkinson: Yeah. My dad graduated from the old Pasco City Hall which is a high school now—I mean, the city hall now, in 1929. Franklin: Is there any way—would we be able to scan these and make them digital? Adkinson: Yeah! I just found a couple more. Franklin: And could I take them and then either hand-deliver them to you or mail them certified mail back to you? Adkinson: Sure. Franklin: Oh, that would be wonderful. And if you want digital copies too— Adkinson: Well, I’ve pretty much—oh, here’s the pool hall. Franklin: Make you digital copies as well. Because these are just fabulous, just in documenting—and there’s so many pictures. Adkinson: Yeah, and it’s all taken in Pasco, so— Franklin: Yeah. A lot of these look like they were liberated from scrapbooks. Adkinson: They were. Franklin: I can tell. Adkinson: My grandma’s— Franklin: I do a lot of this in the archives. Sorry. Adkinson: My grandma’s scrapbook. Franklin: Yeah, it’s sad because it’s not good for preservation. Adkinson: It isn’t. Franklin: Because the glues and everything. Adkinson: And so many of the pages were also torn, too, of the album itself. So Mary, she started it and I think she had one half done that was left, and I did that. But she did have one in the modern times. Kupfer: I think that was the only way you could do— Adkinson: You can’t even take the picture out of the book. What? Kupfer: I think that was the only way you could do pictures, was to use the black things, you know, back then. Adkinson: Mm-hmm. Franklin: These are just—these are great, and the stuff on the back, and just explaining some of them— Adkinson: Yeah, I tried to find the ones that had the writing on it. Franklin: Oh, they’re so great. Adkinson: That is Aunt Mary and I think one of her waitresses. That’s the Eddy’s Café, that’s the last café that she and Dad were at. Bauman: I see the Eddy’s Café. That’s awesome. Franklin: Whoa, Winter Tacoma Hotel. Adkinson: Now that was the—I think that’s the M. & M.— Bauman: Second M. & M., it says. Adkinson: Yeah. What they were famous for, they served American food also because that’s what it was when they bought it. And they put it in the first Chinese American restaurant. What they got famous for is their homemade noodles. So they’d come in after drinking beer all night at the nearby taverns, they’d come in for bowls of this broth and noodles. Bauman: That sounds good. Adkinson: Pork slices on top. Franklin: Was it ramen? Satoh: Yeah. Franklin: Or did your grandparents make saimin because they’d lived in Hawai’i? Adkinson: Just homemade noodles. They had a humungous noodle machine. I mean, it was a stand-up—you’d have to stand next to it. In the end, I think Bea’s mom was making it. Kupfer: Yeah. Adkinson: For the café, too, after she worked. Kupfer: There’s no place around that has— Adkinson: I have the recipe. Kupfer: Do you? Adkinson: But it’s ridiculous. I can’t do it. [LAUGHTER] Kupfer: Oh, gosh. Adkinson: It’s just like four items. Flour, egg, and water and maybe something else. Kupfer: But, I mean, the broth. Adkinson: Oh, the broth. Oh, I can do that. Kupfer: Can you? Adkinson: Yeah, I can make the broth. It’s easy now. Bauman: That sounds nice. These photos are great. Franklin: Yeah, they are. Bauman: Really amazing. Yeah, so. This is yours, right? This is also a great photo because it’s from Heart Mountain. Franklin: Oh, wow. Adkinson: Oh, that’s a good one. Bauman: Yeah, Brenda’s two older sisters. Franklin: Oh, man. Wow. Adkinson: I think Jean has some from internment camp. Kupfer: I’m sure she does, yeah. Adkinson: Pictures, because I think there’s one on—didn’t she graduate from high school? Didn’t she—did she get her degree--? I think she-- Kupfer: She came back— Adkinson: Well, Arlene graduated in ’54. Jeannie would’ve had to have graduated earlier. Kupfer: She graduated, not necessarily in camp. Adkinson: Oh. Kupfer: But she graduated early. She was young when she graduated. Adkinson: Yeah, yeah. Bauman: So I was just thinking of something else. I may pester all of you again to see if any or all of you might be willing to come to one of my classes at some point and talk about some of the same stuff. It wouldn’t be this semester; it would be next—I teach a freshman level US history survey course, but it’s sort of the second—so at some point, we’d talk about World War II. I’ve had them read your uncle George’s letter in the past. Adkinson: Ah. Yeah. Bauman: And talk about some of those things. So I think it might be great to incorporate all of you if you might be willing to do that. Kupfer: Those two are the spokesperson. Adkinson: You know, US history-wise, I won the local DAR contest and then I won the state. Years later, somebody told me that this was the first person who wasn’t white— Bauman: Wasn’t white to win the state? I was— Adkinson: --won the state. I don’t know if that’s true or not. Bauman: I would not be surprised. Wouldn’t be surprised. Franklin: I wouldn’t be surprised. Adkinson: Yeah, it was surprising. My mother was ready to fall in a dead faint, because she was mad ever since Marian Anderson was denied opera space in Maryland or something. I guess she really loved that woman’s voice. I don’t remember her at all, but, yeah. Franklin: These are all your pictures, Linda, except for this picture, which is yours. Kupfer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Okay, and it’s okay if I scan this one too? Kupfer: Yeah. Franklin: And I have all your mailing addresses. Would you prefer me to mail them back certified mail, or--? Adkinson: Why don’t you mail it all back together to me, and then I can give it to her. Franklin: Okay. And we’ll do it certified with insurance so they’ll just know— Adkinson: Okay. Franklin: Yeah, this is really something. Adkinson: We’ll have an excuse to go to lunch then. [LAUGHTER] Franklin: Go get them scanned. I mean, wow. Yeah. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Yamauchi Family Subject The topic of the resource Japan Emigration Hawai’i Pasco (Wash.) Spokane (Wash.) Kennewick (Wash.) Richland (Wash.) Entrepreneurship Restaurateurs Grocery trade Japanese Americans--Evacuation and relocation, 1942-1945 Internment of Japanese Americans, 1942-1945 Discrimination Description An account of the resource An interview with Brenda Kupfer, Roy Satoh, Linda Reiko Adkinson and Bruce Yamauchi . An interview conducted as part of the Hanford Oral History Project. The Hanford Oral History Project was sponsored by Mission Support Alliance on behalf of the United States Department of Energy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Hanford Oral History Project at Washington State University Tri-Cities Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 09/18/2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Those interested in reproducing part or all of this oral history should contact the Hanford History Project at ourhanfordhistory@tricity.wsu.edu, who can provide specific rights information for this item. Relation A related resource Yamauchi Family, Oral History Metada Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The Hanford Oral History Project operates under a sub-contract from Mission Support Alliance (MSA), who are the primary contractors for the US Department of Energy's curatorial services relating to the Hanford site. This oral history project became a part of the Hanford History Project in 2015, and continues to add to the US Department of Energy collection.